Krosan Grip to blow up Time Vault before it comes online? Kills a lot of other relevant things too. Seems like a nice little backup to Null Rod if they bounce it.
This is something I have wanted to use for a long time in Black - Ritual of the Machine might be a consideration in the sideboard against something like Oath that uses one of the Eldrazi? Probably too slow and it misses Darksteel, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Iona (probably) and Inkwell. But it would be cool to do if it actually happens.
Maybe I suffer from the disease of cool things. Too much Johnny in my blood.
At first glance I would say the fact that it does not have: 1 crucible, 4 leyline of the void, 1 helm of obedience, fewer null rods, 4 dark rituals, 1 demonic consultation, 1 less d edict, imperial seal, 1 necropotence, 4 vampire hexmage, and 2 dark depths.
Basically the 2 combos that dark times wins with and an extra color.
At first glance I would say the fact that it does not have: 1 crucible, 4 leyline of the void, 1 helm of obedience, fewer null rods, 4 dark rituals, 1 demonic consultation, 1 less d edict, imperial seal, 1 necropotence, 4 vampire hexmage, and 2 dark depths.
Basically the 2 combos that dark times wins with and an extra color.
Good thing this deck I'm working on isn't Dark`Times:rolleyes:...already have that, but more or less a tech beater.
I should have some changes coming soon, and thanks to all the members that have been sharing "on" topic idea's and opinions.
S.M.
I would be tempted to drop the 2nd d-edict and chains for 1 gatekeeper and 1 life from the loam. Keeper still flips two to bob, gives you an edict effect (you have the black sources), and an extra bear. Also, having 4 wastes, 1 strip, and lands that tap for green really wants lftl. I played a deck mildly similar to this in side events at 09 nationals and loved loam. In some matchups it feels a tad slow but in the grand scheme of things it allows for random loam lock wins.
Edit- you may also over commit to green soures in your deck. Think about how important that 2nd forest really is.
I would be tempted to drop the 2nd d-edict and chains for 1 gatekeeper and 1 life from the loam. Keeper still flips two to bob, gives you an edict effect (you have the black sources), and an extra bear. Also, having 4 wastes, 1 strip, and lands that tap for green really wants lftl. I played a deck mildly similar to this in side events at 09 nationals and loved loam. In some matchups it feels a tad slow but in the grand scheme of things it allows for random loam lock wins.
Edit- you may also over commit to green soures in your deck. Think about how important that 2nd forest really is.
Yep...you're right I need that second forest:-/ in the main, found out the hard way the other day.
I'll toy around with the GKeeper, I like where your head is at on that idea ~ outlook.
Now for the love of GOD/Jabba/whoever...this isn't a Combo deck like D`T, so with that in mind if everyone has a problem with Jace the Mind`Plucker they need to incorporate their Needles. I'm not going to even attempt the Hexmage seeing this deck is already running pretty solid {I said pretty solid, but not quite there yet} at the current moment.
Disruption = check, in the form of 8 ways...good luck staying on the top draw.
Null Rod/Needle = Given...we're still in the vintage area...right;)...rhetoricle.
Nature's Claim = I don't know what wizards was thinking, and this card is really the reason I'm even attempting to build this rogue deck.
Land Base = Very tight, and I like how the results feel so far:cool2:.
Oh and I'll try out the Loam bud, that just seems like a brilliant move.
Thanks folks,
S.M.
First off let me say that i am a Dark times player. And i play it with a splash of green, it works great with 2 nature's claims and 1 deed main, 2 more claims 2 more deeds board
I don't see the advantage of playing this over Dark Times with green. you have worse match-ups across the board, every single deck in the format. you added more bullets but also added more need for bullets by slowing your deck down and lowering the number of tutors you have to get those bullets.
Now for the constructive part.
1) First your landbase is high for a deck with an average converted mana cost of less than 2. you can afford to ditch 1 or 2 lands, you probably don't need 4 bayous with all those fetch's anyway. nothing in your deck requires double greem and i can't imagine a card in your board requiring double green
2) Barring a lotus Yawg will seems to be a more expensive regrowth, and is underwhelming at best. you will rarely do anything broken with this in this deck especially not running rits
3) your win conditions are lacking, if you can't get a goyf to resolve you are down to bob beats which is pretty sad. try adding some more threats. Tombstalker comes to mind, he doesn't play well with bob but your deck has a low mana curve you can afford to have them in there. you can even try death's shadow more of a stretch but it does play nice with with cards like Necropotence, night's whisper, thought seize, bitter blossom, dark confidant, ad naseum, vamp tutor, imperial sealinfernal contract ...although you don't know how many times a 20/20 token just isn't fast enough, even with a similar disruption package
4) When you originally posted this i would have said Chains of Mephistopheles to the board, with Gush being unrestricted i'll be moving one to the maindeck in dark times so it seems appropriate here too
I'd be curious to hear what decks you are testing it against and what your results have been, i honestly can't see success in this build
First off let me say that i am a Dark times player. And i play it with a splash of green, it works great with 2 nature's claims and 1 deed main, 2 more claims 2 more deeds board
I don't see the advantage of playing this over Dark Times with green. you have worse match-ups across the board, every single deck in the format. you added more bullets but also added more need for bullets by slowing your deck down and lowering the number of tutors you have to get those bullets.
Now for the constructive part.
1) First your landbase is high for a deck with an average converted mana cost of less than 2. you can afford to ditch 1 or 2 lands, you probably don't need 4 bayous with all those fetch's anyway. nothing in your deck requires double greem and i can't imagine a card in your board requiring double green
2) Barring a lotus Yawg will seems to be a more expensive regrowth, and is underwhelming at best. you will rarely do anything broken with this in this deck especially not running rits
3) your win conditions are lacking, if you can't get a goyf to resolve you are down to bob beats which is pretty sad. try adding some more threats. Tombstalker comes to mind, he doesn't play well with bob but your deck has a low mana curve you can afford to have them in there. you can even try death's shadow more of a stretch but it does play nice with with cards like Necropotence, night's whisper, thought seize, bitter blossom, dark confidant, ad naseum, vamp tutor, imperial sealinfernal contract ...although you don't know how many times a 20/20 token just isn't fast enough, even with a similar disruption package
4) When you originally posted this i would have said Chains of Mephistopheles to the board, with Gush being unrestricted i'll be moving one to the maindeck in dark times so it seems appropriate here too
I'd be curious to hear what decks you are testing it against and what your results have been, i honestly can't see success in this build
You can't see a constructed deck/archetype utilizing disruption/control and ofcourse Goyfs and Bobs to obtain T-1 victories...ok, well welcome to vintage then...worse rogue decks have accompolished greater.
Now remember this is just a templete I'm working on SEEING I HAVE DARK TIMES AND THIS ISN'T A DT DECK.
That being said I'm toying around with this because DT just doesn't harness that green as well as I thought it would, and nowhere am I claiming this to be the next HOT deck, but more or less a competitive mold to add a little spice in my group.
"It's all fun and games until you sit down from something like this and it changes your outlook in 3 games", that wasn't my words but from a good friend of mine that plays for power.
Update:
Deed is gone, Chains in gone, and I'm messing around with that Loam ect. Spite the opinion from one member this deck is working rather smoothly, and it's not hard to see how all the key pieces create a uncomfortable situation for my opp.
S.M.
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Lotus Petal
3x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Withered Wretch
4x Thoughtseize
2x Night's Whisper
1x Darkbast
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Strip Mine
4x Bayou
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Swamp
2x Forest
Maybe I suffer from the disease of cool things. Too much Johnny in my blood.
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Basically the 2 combos that dark times wins with and an extra color.
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Good thing this deck I'm working on isn't Dark`Times:rolleyes:...already have that, but more or less a tech beater.
I should have some changes coming soon, and thanks to all the members that have been sharing "on" topic idea's and opinions.
S.M.
Edit- you may also over commit to green soures in your deck. Think about how important that 2nd forest really is.
AVOID MTG Fanatic ! Remands Orders and Re-lists cards for more money!
Is the expected environment so warped that Goyf is more efficient than Marit Lage?
Necro was so good, its omittence seems wrong. I do understand curve and all, but the days of reloading EoT were broken.
As to offer additions, what about Putrid Leech? Life is precious, but an additional beater is good.
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Clan RepresentativeIt's also a 2 powered first striker. I know that's not exactly nuts, but it seems okay in disruption/aggro.
Does Elspeth 1.0 see play in vintage?
I'm not a vintage player, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.
Yep...you're right I need that second forest:-/ in the main, found out the hard way the other day.
I'll toy around with the GKeeper, I like where your head is at on that idea ~ outlook.
Now for the love of GOD/Jabba/whoever...this isn't a Combo deck like D`T, so with that in mind if everyone has a problem with Jace the Mind`Plucker they need to incorporate their Needles. I'm not going to even attempt the Hexmage seeing this deck is already running pretty solid {I said pretty solid, but not quite there yet} at the current moment.
Disruption = check, in the form of 8 ways...good luck staying on the top draw.
Null Rod/Needle = Given...we're still in the vintage area...right;)...rhetoricle.
Nature's Claim = I don't know what wizards was thinking, and this card is really the reason I'm even attempting to build this rogue deck.
Land Base = Very tight, and I like how the results feel so far:cool2:.
Oh and I'll try out the Loam bud, that just seems like a brilliant move.
Thanks folks,
S.M.
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I don't see the advantage of playing this over Dark Times with green. you have worse match-ups across the board, every single deck in the format. you added more bullets but also added more need for bullets by slowing your deck down and lowering the number of tutors you have to get those bullets.
Now for the constructive part.
1) First your landbase is high for a deck with an average converted mana cost of less than 2. you can afford to ditch 1 or 2 lands, you probably don't need 4 bayous with all those fetch's anyway. nothing in your deck requires double greem and i can't imagine a card in your board requiring double green
2) Barring a lotus Yawg will seems to be a more expensive regrowth, and is underwhelming at best. you will rarely do anything broken with this in this deck especially not running rits
3) your win conditions are lacking, if you can't get a goyf to resolve you are down to bob beats which is pretty sad. try adding some more threats. Tombstalker comes to mind, he doesn't play well with bob but your deck has a low mana curve you can afford to have them in there. you can even try death's shadow more of a stretch but it does play nice with with cards like Necropotence, night's whisper, thought seize, bitter blossom, dark confidant, ad naseum, vamp tutor, imperial seal infernal contract ...although you don't know how many times a 20/20 token just isn't fast enough, even with a similar disruption package
4) When you originally posted this i would have said Chains of Mephistopheles to the board, with Gush being unrestricted i'll be moving one to the maindeck in dark times so it seems appropriate here too
I'd be curious to hear what decks you are testing it against and what your results have been, i honestly can't see success in this build
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
You can't see a constructed deck/archetype utilizing disruption/control and ofcourse Goyfs and Bobs to obtain T-1 victories...ok, well welcome to vintage then...worse rogue decks have accompolished greater.
Now remember this is just a templete I'm working on SEEING I HAVE DARK TIMES AND THIS ISN'T A DT DECK.
That being said I'm toying around with this because DT just doesn't harness that green as well as I thought it would, and nowhere am I claiming this to be the next HOT deck, but more or less a competitive mold to add a little spice in my group.
"It's all fun and games until you sit down from something like this and it changes your outlook in 3 games", that wasn't my words but from a good friend of mine that plays for power.
Update:
Deed is gone, Chains in gone, and I'm messing around with that Loam ect. Spite the opinion from one member this deck is working rather smoothly, and it's not hard to see how all the key pieces create a uncomfortable situation for my opp.
S.M.
Non-standard things I dislike: lack of Necropotence, lack of Demonic Consultation, Withered Wretch, Pithing Needle
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Modern
RWGBurnGWR
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BURTESRUB
GElves!G
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RGBelcherGR
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