MTG Salvation

I've never played vintage before but there is a small scale tourney coming up in my local area here is the list i've put together. It's exactly from a Stephen Menendian Article



I can't take any suggestions on changing to much. I have a 15 proxy limit and I have used 12 of my proxies. My question is what could I change to make the deck slightly bettery with my 3 proxies. I'm obviously going to add a Black Lotus and Mox Jet...but I don't know what to take out. And that final card? Anyone got any suggestions what I could run as a 1 of?

The good thing about this deck is that you don't really gain much by adding power9 cards. So save your proxies on something more useful. Perhaps stuff you will need on your sideboard.

Other tings you can consider is to splash green for Tarmogoyf / Oxidize and Life from the Loam.

Or you could consider other beatdown options. Such as Oona's Prowler or Tombstalker.

You could also go. -2 Duress, or Thoughtseize and add 2x Hymn to Tourach.

D3@D

Well what if I wanted to add Mox Jet and Black Lotus...what would a person take out? 2 Swamp? That doesn't seem right...i thought hard about hymn to torach

if you wanted to add mox and lotus i might take out null rod

i've never been a fan of negator, seams way to risky.

i like going this rout:


destroying thier hand is a good way to make sure they can't win....

What are you taking out to fit in 4 hymn to torach tho? I kinda like the nyxathid idea other than he doesn't have trample...

I've been gold fishin all day. I barely understand how to play the deck...I don't even really get how to win with will. I never know what I should be tutor'n for

I would change:

-4 Bitterblossom
-1 Necropotence
-3 Phyrexian Negator
-8 swamp
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Duress

and I would add:
+3 Polluted Delta
+3 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Black Lotus
+1 Mox Jet
+4 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Tombstalker
+4 Sinkhole

There is too much Fish in the meta to justify using negator. Especially if it is a small tournament, expect tons of aggro or maybe even some burn decks.

Controlling the pace of the game is important for black decks, by making these changes you shift from "sui-black" to more "Mono-black control"

Quote from Caselogik

I would change:

-4 Bitterblossom
-1 Necropotence
-3 Phyrexian Negator-8 swamp
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Duress

and I would add:
+3 Polluted Delta
+3 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Black Lotus
+1 Mox Jet
+4 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Tombstalker
+4 Sinkhole

There is too much Fish in the meta to justify using negator. Especially if it is a small tournament, expect tons of aggro or maybe even some burn decks.

Controlling the pace of the game is important for black decks, by making these changes you shift from "sui-black" to more "Mono-black control"

Hmm you make some great points about negator. Here's the problem. I have none of the cards you list above but Hymn To Tourach. And my 14 proxies that I am using are being used for Null Rod, Chalice of the Void, Wasteland, Mox Jet and Black Lotus. So i simply don't have those cards...that's why in the first post I said I can't take on to many changes. It's just a matter of not having the cards...

What if I went this route instead...
-3 Phyrexian Negator
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Duress
-1 Necro
-1 Bitterblossom
-2 Swamp

+3 Nyxathid
+4 Hymn to Tourach
+1 Mox Jet
+1 Black Lotus

I don't understand how to play this tendrils, yawgmoth's will, necro combo very well anyway so it might be best to take it out and play something like hymn that I do understand. Or the other option i have is...do I need all the tutor pieces if I'm not playing the whole tendrils route? Like consultation?

I don't think Nyxathid is really a good option here. The problem is that there's just too much blue draw in vintage.
Even if you hit them with a couple Hymns, they'll probably still have 5 or more cards in hand.

Just try to trade for Null Rods or Chalices. They're not really that expensive.

Do you have avatar of discord? he is surprisingly good in these types of decks.

I don't understand why you absolutely want to run mox jet and black lotus in this deck when you most likely won't even miss the cards when you play. Ok. Lotus is a powerful card, but since you have to proxy cards like Null Rod, Challice of the Void and Wasteland. why not open up for more useful cards instead of accelerating the deck slightly? The only thing you want to accelerate into is a turn 1 Null Rod. Lotus Petal + Dark Ritual can do the job for you. If you want more you could even add Chrome mox or Mox diamond or even spirit guides.

You could also use some copies of Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors if you want. This way you can have turn 1 Rod, turn 2 Negator (without the help of artifact or instant accelerators).

I'm really not sure chalice and null rod are that good in my meta. This is gonna be 12-15 fnm players who never play vintage. I don't know if there will be many powered decks. Or am I just talking ridiculous now to cut those? I can most definitely cut lotus and jet but then I'm left with 3 proxies.

Depending on how you predict your meta. You believe that there will be little to none powered decks. You can reconsider Challice of the Void in your deck (although it can be good at times even just to up your storm count for Tendrils kill).

Null Rod is IMO pretty nice to have powered or not, as I'm sure there will be some decks out there where it could be nice to have. It helps against Equipments, Mindslaver, Nev. Disk, Oblivion Stone etc.

But then again, if its a 15 proxy tournament. Chances are that will face someone packing full set of mox/lotus.

If you think there will be alot of aggro present. Be sure to pack enough removals against their Goyf, Bobs, + other fish critters. Smother would probably help you vs aggro.

D3@D

Why not run Hypnotic Specter? I'd put him there rather than Negator. Also, if you're planning on running it without Lotus or Jet, power 8 is much needed here.

my super sub par list for a environment with lots of fish.

Do not by any means play with Nyxathid. It would also be crazy not to use Black Lotus and Mox Jet, whether you're using Null Rod and Chalice or not.

The Null Rods and Chalices are what would make this competitive against the top Vintage decks. With 15 proxies, I would certainly imagine that people are going to build the real decks and bring them. If you own a few duals and staples, you can build almost anything on 15 proxies. You can play Tezzeret proxying the Power 9, plus 4 Mana Drains and a Time Vault, and still have one proxy left over. So, I would guess that you are going to be playing against powered decks but obviously you know your meta better than I do.

I would definitely get Dark Confidant in there. Not playing him is just insane.

Alright I was able to get my hands on the 6 fetch lands and 4 wasteland. So i now have this deck ready and available. I played a game with it yesterday against a tinker deck and I did ok. I like it...


I need a different sideboard card for Gate To Phyrexia. It's not as good without bitterblossom. I think contagion isn't to bad? I don't have any Smothers or I would go that route...

What you guys think of this list?

Now just hope you don't run into Staxx and you will do fairly well.

Be careful running as little land as you have there. You do have 4 dark right, and 5 swamp, but you won't be drawing into much mana acceleration, which may or may not be a disadvantage. If I were you, I would consider cutting 1 of each fetch for 2 more swamps. but that is a decision to make once you start playtesting.

I would cut the 5th Challice of the Void for starters. And some of the Hand disruption. I think its a bit overkill with Duress, Seize and Hymn + Sink Hole. You will be sitting drawing those cards when you want to finish the game, not just keep their hands clean. Also, now you don't have a way of winning if your opponent lands an Ensnaring Bridge or something against you.

I still think that you should reconsider Yawg + Tendrils kill. Its not hard to storm lethal with Lotus, Dark Rits and some duresses in your yard. If you can find space, make room for at least 1 more tutor as well. Entomb could help you find Tendrils or whatever before you try for the storm in response to your yawg will, + its a cheap way to get more storm count as well.

good luck with your deck.

D3@D

Don't be afraid to use Phyrexian Negators and side them out for Masticores or Razormane Masticores or something if you come up againist aggro. A Ritual into a Negator on the first turn can be trouble for a bunch of decks. I'm not sure if your Sinkholes are proxied. You may want to consider cutting them for other stuff (Crucible of Worlds, Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Negators, etc).

Quote from D3@D

I would cut the 5th Challice of the Void for starters. And some of the Hand disruption. I think its a bit overkill with Duress, Seize and Hymn + Sink Hole. You will be sitting drawing those cards when you want to finish the game, not just keep their hands clean. Also, now you don't have a way of winning if your opponent lands an Ensnaring Bridge or something against you.

I still think that you should reconsider Yawg + Tendrils kill. Its not hard to storm lethal with Lotus, Dark Rits and some duresses in your yard. If you can find space, make room for at least 1 more tutor as well. Entomb could help you find Tendrils or whatever before you try for the storm in response to your yawg will, + its a cheap way to get more storm count as well.

good luck with your deck.

D3@D

lol yea we need to cut that 5th. I have found sinkhole to be very subpar. The problem is I'm too dumb to figure out tendrils kill. It needs 1 more land for sure. I'm thinkng this...

+1 Tendrils of agony
+1 imperial seal
+1 ?
+1 swamp

-4 sinkhole

hymn to tourach has been good for me I like it so far...

Maybe try something like:

-4 Sinkhole, -2 Tombstalker

+3 Phyrexian Negator (or some other beef) +1 Tendrils of Agony, Imperial Seal, Swamp.

Tombstalker is kind of anti-synergy with the Yawg Will plan. So if you decide on having Yawg as your secondary finisher, reconsider Tombstalker.

You could also try to limit your discarders to 10 copies. E.g. 4x Duress, 4x Thoughtseize and 2x Hymn to Tourach. but, personally, I wouldn't play more than 8 perhaps.

You need a few creature removals also. To deal with opposing Bobs, Goyfs, Welders, etc. So a mix of Diabolic Edict and Smother would seem fit.

D3@D

Tendrils kill is going to be admittedly harder without the rest of the Moxen and artifact bounce but with your deck it could go something like:

Play land, Duress, Black Lotus, sac for black, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Demonic Tutor for Yawg Will, play Yawg Will
Replay Lotus, both Rituals, Demonic Tutor for Tendrils, cast Tendrils for 22.

Just basically get some cheap spells and accelerants in the yard and go nuts.

EDIT: And, obviously you don't need to do 20 to them when you cast it, as you're beating down with creatures as well.