This deck has done shockly well vs most of the top decks I have played on MWS. While this build might seem wierd even buy many WW standards it can easily beat fish (won 2/3 of the games I played against it), crushed welder (won every game), beat affinity (lets just say kataki + null rod own it), and has even beat oath (2/3 of the time so far). Thats whith just the testing I just did today it has done farly well since the first time U put the cards together on MWS about a year ago. The deck has not changed much since that time either. But since I found I have close to 50% of the deck already its time for me to make it in real life as best I can. Heres the deck:
Karakas: Helps beat oath and at worst acts as a plains. Why do I have two in the deck ( a miner change I did make). So I have greater chance of drawing the thing. Plus if they pop one I have a spare in deck.
wasteland/Stripe Mine: Standard for many decks no deck should be without them. Well at least in my price range anyway.
Icatian Javelineers: Kills any number of things and can get that last point of damage through if needed.
Kataki, War's Wage: Harmes there arifacts or at least slows them down. I have been told to take him out once for having 7 other artifacts in the deck. Trust me the deck can stand to have them all.
True Believer: Shuts down any number of decks. If anything he beats for 2.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain: I cant tell you just how much many of the high end decks hate having there stuff RFG. Plus she can be bigger then most of fishes creatures.
Weathered Wayfarer: Graps any land I need, commonly when I need it. More so then even I thought he could grap the land.
Pithing Needle: Shuts down many things so much so that not having it in the deck is just a good thing.
Orim's Chant: Not only is this card good at slowing them down. It can help me get into play someing to swing the game in my faver.
Seal of Cleansing: Can hit so many things its a no branier to have in the deck.
Enlightened Tutor: Grabs many of the cards that can help shut down the oppoent. If anything I can grab a seal for latter use.
Null Rod: Stops so many arifacts in there tracks and slows down alot of the decks out there its also a no brainer.
As I have been testing the deck it seems more and more like it could realy hold its own. At this stage though its hard for me to really see many bugs in how the deck should work.
The sidebord though is still a work in progress since ill be making it my home meta in mind.
Could you tell us what are your matchups against Stax, CS and Gifts? Those are common and they're the most important decks to know if you can beat them.
I see a lot of creature removal in the deck, so wouldn't Abeyance be better than Orim's Chant? Especially with it being cantrip as it helps dig through the deck a bit.
Could you tell us what are your matchups against Stax, CS and Gifts? Those are common and they're the most important decks to know if you can beat them.
Several months into it, my opinions on certain decks have changed.
I haven't played this deck in a tournament against Gifts. I have, however, play tested it against several gifts deck.
Gifts slaughters it. Pre-sideboarding, it 40-60 in favor of gifts. Post it becomes 10-90. Funny thing is that they usually don't side in anything -- its more a matter of realizing that the creatures are simply too small to inflict enough damage before a combo (that circumvents whatever you already have on board) goes off. They only have to counter potential stuff that can stop them.
CS. Now this is pretty popular and I've faced several versions in both playtesting and tournament level. This deck actually does well. Samurai and Javelineers help in recursion, and True Believer also helps. I also run Meddling Mage (usually naming the draw spells, like TfK). Most of those I playtested against have developed this strategy: ignore almost everything, get artifact creature in play (platinum angel, DSC) in play and just counter the swords to plow or seal of cleansing. Again, the deck's small creatures are sometimes just not enough to stop a game swinging topdeck. My version with Mages slow the draw enough, but this pure white version can't prevent that. Some CS versions carry wishes and fire/ice, which is very difficult to deal with at times.
Here's an amusing anecdote from the last time I faced CS competitively.
I had a true believer, 2 active javelineers, a samurai, and two meddling mages (TfK, mana drain). I was beating down and expecting a win, as there was no way he could get a platinum angel into play fast enough. I also knew the guy and his team, and knew that he didn't have tinker+DSC. I also knew he didn't have wishes, nor fire/ice. My only true worry was a tinkered plat, which, since mana drain was meddli maged, meant that only FoW would stop it.
"Pyroclasm?"
My jaw dropped. I think my brain went numb for 5 seconds. He had two maindecked clasms (and two more in the side, which he sided in for the next game). If it had been someone else I would have demanded an immediate deck check. CS with clasm? maindeck? Yuck.
"Err... sorry Mondu, blame your teammate."
Oath. Now this is where my experiences differ from Law. I find oath one of the most difficult matches. Certainly, 2 Karakas helps, but not quite enough. Often the only card Oath will be countering is the StP or Seal. Everything else goes through -- not like the creatures can match Akroma.
Stax. My experiences with workshop prison are mixed. The deck does well enough, barring early things like sphere of resistance and trinisphere (then again, all decks would have a hard time with that). Almost impossible to overcome CotV for 2 -- this is where blue splash for Energy Flux comes in mighty handy than just Kataki. I actually considered other 3cc artifact hosers (such as aura of silence). As luck would have it, I've won every single workshop prison matchup so far in tournaments. Playtesting is another matter, as people I test with are familiar with the deck and know that CotV for 2 practically finishes it off.
Workshop aggro. A better matchup in general than workshop prison. Samurai throws himself in front of juggernaut if he isn't watching over welder, and pithing needle also does a job against things like welder and trike, whose first target is usally Kataki and the Javelineers. StP takes care of the larger monsters, but I also run silver knight -- jitte+first strike+Javelineer backup for the win. In this build, I guess null rod is a bonus against trike and friends.
Several months into it, my opinions on certain decks have changed.
I haven't played this deck in a tournament against Gifts. I have, however, play tested it against several gifts deck.
Gifts slaughters it. Pre-sideboarding, it 40-60 in favor of gifts. Post it becomes 10-90. Funny thing is that they usually don't side in anything -- its more a matter of realizing that the creatures are simply too small to inflict enough damage before a combo (that circumvents whatever you already have on board) goes off. They only have to counter potential stuff that can stop them.
Strange I think I did play vs one gifts deck or it was a deck with gifts in it. Sad part was even his FoWs did not seem to stop me enough. O ya it was gifts dragon combo of all decks, that was a shocker as much as me kicking it hard.
CS. Now this is pretty popular and I've faced several versions in both playtesting and tournament level. This deck actually does well. Samurai and Javelineers help in recursion, and True Believer also helps. I also run Meddling Mage (usually naming the draw spells, like TfK). Most of those I playtested against have developed this strategy: ignore almost everything, get artifact creature in play (platinum angel, DSC) in play and just counter the swords to plow or seal of cleansing. Again, the deck's small creatures are sometimes just not enough to stop a game swinging topdeck. My version with Mages slow the draw enough, but this pure white version can't prevent that. Some CS versions carry wishes and fire/ice, which is very difficult to deal with at times.
Here's an amusing anecdote from the last time I faced CS competitively.
I had a true believer, 2 active javelineers, a samurai, and two meddling mages (TfK, mana drain). I was beating down and expecting a win, as there was no way he could get a platinum angel into play fast enough. I also knew the guy and his team, and knew that he didn't have tinker+DSC. I also knew he didn't have wishes, nor fire/ice. My only true worry was a tinkered plat, which, since mana drain was meddli maged, meant that only FoW would stop it.
"Pyroclasm?"
My jaw dropped. I think my brain went numb for 5 seconds. He had two maindecked clasms (and two more in the side, which he sided in for the next game). If it had been someone else I would have demanded an immediate deck check. CS with clasm? maindeck? Yuck.
"Err... sorry Mondu, blame your teammate."
The trick is to beat the crap out of them as much as you can before they clasm. I had someone grap one from a burning wish. Though it did not seem to change to out come.
Oath. Now this is where my experiences differ from Law. I find oath one of the most difficult matches. Certainly, 2 Karakas helps, but not quite enough. Often the only card Oath will be countering is the StP or Seal. Everything else goes through -- not like the creatures can match Akroma.[/card]
Also dont forget im running Weathered Wayfarer in the deck. Each game I used him to get me one of the Karakas. Though game 1 he delt with it va wasteland, it did its damage. Game two he just smashed my face in. Game I had one in my starting hand so a plobed a needle calling wasteland (even if it shut down my own) and got it in play. Plus it helped that I had a needle calling his Anchent Hydra so he could not shot my stuff down. In short the deck did what it needed to.
Stax. My experiences with workshop prison are mixed. The deck does well enough, barring early things like sphere of resistance and trinisphere (then again, all decks would have a hard time with that). Almost impossible to overcome CotV for 2 -- this is where blue splash for Energy Flux comes in mighty handy than just Kataki. I actually considered other 3cc artifact hosers (such as aura of silence). As luck would have it, I've won every single workshop prison matchup so far in tournaments. Playtesting is another matter, as people I test with are familiar with the deck and know that CotV for 2 practically finishes it off.
As with other decks you still need to get down your key peaces before they can do much. A rod + Kataki = game over for them. It might have been luck of the draw but I for some reason have gotten both when I needed them. Though I have found if they are smart and set CotV to one or two before I can get an anser down the game could be over right there.
[card]Workshop aggro. A better matchup in general than workshop prison. Samurai throws himself in front of juggernaut if he isn't watching over welder, and pithing needle also does a job against things like welder and trike, whose first target is usally Kataki and the Javelineers. StP takes care of the larger monsters, but I also run silver knight -- jitte+first strike+Javelineer backup for the win. In this build, I guess null rod is a bonus against trike and friends.
One thing my build that yours does not almost to much hate. Its funny that I do have jitte in my side I think as of now (if not I should have it in the side). But since it did not fit main deck for some reasons that you can see.
Overall vs the top decks it seems to do well. At least on MWS anyway. Some times I have run into a funky deck that it cant beat (like let say its tier 10 if you count that low) but they are decks no one is playing in the mager turnys anyway. But once im done building the r/g beats/tempo deck ill be building this and making it a real so I can get some real playtesting vs the decks in my area.
Yet again I will say I hate to double post. But im going to do it anyway in order to get the thread some action as well as post an update.
After the week testing as much as I could on MWS. Overall it can beat almost anydeck I have faced. Though if an Uba Stax deck treats it like u/w fish it can shut down the deck (CotV set a 2 first turn can really do a number to the deck). But overall so long as the deck im facing is not a real janky deck (like way on the low end of the curve) it seems like this vearshon of WW has a good game against it.
Things I have learned about the deck:
Weathered Wayfarer can become one of the most hated cards in the deck. Well once they get striped/wasted 5 times in a row and I win. True Beliver is a close 2nd in my testing that people try and deal with the most. Good or bad this seems to be the most common creatures either already hate or learn to hate if I pull them out.
Null Rod, Pithing Needle, and Kataki are a good team. That might sound weired as one hates out the other two. Trust me they for some reason work well for me some times almost to well. (I had someone ask what do you do vs none artifact decks just from these three cards hitting play and during there job well.)
The best sidebord seems to like this so far:
Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [US] Absolute Law
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [PY] Abolish
SB: 3 [9E] Sacred Ground
Odd looking but even as a 3 of each in the sidebord they seem to be at the right amount.
Just a little update. With a hope to get some more input into the thread.
i understand that you are trying to do your own thing here law, but have you looked into Meandeck deck wins? Its UW aggro but its similar and has an even better set-up than this...
In my experience Weathered Wayfarer is FAR to slow to be a major threat against a solid player. Samurai of the Pale Curtain is decent, but lacks in stoping Yawgmoth's Will at all...it only effects permanents...
Thats one thing I do keep forgetting to facter in. Most of the Players on MWS do not know what they are doing. Well at least not very well.
I think I got pinted to that list over on ABS. But I do not have any FoWs and im not that good with blue in general (never have been in all the 7 years I have been playing). Only blue card I have used is thoughtcast in the affinity deck I build.
Thats one thing I do keep forgetting to facter in. Most of the Players on MWS do not know what they are doing. Well at least not very well
yeh, you really gotta get lucky there, heh...
Its just an idea, the blue can help shore up the last of the disruption and FoW especially helps deal with the more broken plays other decks in the format are capable of.
True that 1st turn brocken would be hard to deal with without blue. But the deck can take down most of the decks out there that are worth something.
But it comes down to this. Adding Red for the red half of R/G tempo/beats or adding the green part (both ideas I had and tested somewhat). Would that help the deck in some way? Is it better then just pure white.
Black gets harder (well maby till guildpack comes out but we will see) and blue realy easy to see what could be added (FoW, MMage, MLeak, BStorm, ect...).
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2 Karakas
10 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures 19
4 Icatian Javelineers
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 True Believer
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
3 Pithing Needle
3 Orim's Chant
4 Seal of Cleansing
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Null Rod
4 Swords to Plowshares
Karakas: Helps beat oath and at worst acts as a plains. Why do I have two in the deck ( a miner change I did make). So I have greater chance of drawing the thing. Plus if they pop one I have a spare in deck.
wasteland/Stripe Mine: Standard for many decks no deck should be without them. Well at least in my price range anyway.
Windswept Heath: A fetch not much else needs to be said.
Icatian Javelineers: Kills any number of things and can get that last point of damage through if needed.
Kataki, War's Wage: Harmes there arifacts or at least slows them down. I have been told to take him out once for having 7 other artifacts in the deck. Trust me the deck can stand to have them all.
True Believer: Shuts down any number of decks. If anything he beats for 2.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain: I cant tell you just how much many of the high end decks hate having there stuff RFG. Plus she can be bigger then most of fishes creatures.
Weathered Wayfarer: Graps any land I need, commonly when I need it. More so then even I thought he could grap the land.
Pithing Needle: Shuts down many things so much so that not having it in the deck is just a good thing.
Orim's Chant: Not only is this card good at slowing them down. It can help me get into play someing to swing the game in my faver.
Seal of Cleansing: Can hit so many things its a no branier to have in the deck.
Enlightened Tutor: Grabs many of the cards that can help shut down the oppoent. If anything I can grab a seal for latter use.
Null Rod: Stops so many arifacts in there tracks and slows down alot of the decks out there its also a no brainer.
Swords to Plowshares: Best creature removel in the game nuff said.
As I have been testing the deck it seems more and more like it could realy hold its own. At this stage though its hard for me to really see many bugs in how the deck should work.
The sidebord though is still a work in progress since ill be making it my home meta in mind.
I see a lot of creature removal in the deck, so wouldn't Abeyance be better than Orim's Chant? Especially with it being cantrip as it helps dig through the deck a bit.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=12175&page=2
Several months into it, my opinions on certain decks have changed.
I haven't played this deck in a tournament against Gifts. I have, however, play tested it against several gifts deck.
Gifts slaughters it. Pre-sideboarding, it 40-60 in favor of gifts. Post it becomes 10-90. Funny thing is that they usually don't side in anything -- its more a matter of realizing that the creatures are simply too small to inflict enough damage before a combo (that circumvents whatever you already have on board) goes off. They only have to counter potential stuff that can stop them.
CS. Now this is pretty popular and I've faced several versions in both playtesting and tournament level. This deck actually does well. Samurai and Javelineers help in recursion, and True Believer also helps. I also run Meddling Mage (usually naming the draw spells, like TfK). Most of those I playtested against have developed this strategy: ignore almost everything, get artifact creature in play (platinum angel, DSC) in play and just counter the swords to plow or seal of cleansing. Again, the deck's small creatures are sometimes just not enough to stop a game swinging topdeck. My version with Mages slow the draw enough, but this pure white version can't prevent that. Some CS versions carry wishes and fire/ice, which is very difficult to deal with at times.
Here's an amusing anecdote from the last time I faced CS competitively.
I had a true believer, 2 active javelineers, a samurai, and two meddling mages (TfK, mana drain). I was beating down and expecting a win, as there was no way he could get a platinum angel into play fast enough. I also knew the guy and his team, and knew that he didn't have tinker+DSC. I also knew he didn't have wishes, nor fire/ice. My only true worry was a tinkered plat, which, since mana drain was meddli maged, meant that only FoW would stop it.
"Pyroclasm?"
My jaw dropped. I think my brain went numb for 5 seconds. He had two maindecked clasms (and two more in the side, which he sided in for the next game). If it had been someone else I would have demanded an immediate deck check. CS with clasm? maindeck? Yuck.
"Err... sorry Mondu, blame your teammate."
Oath. Now this is where my experiences differ from Law. I find oath one of the most difficult matches. Certainly, 2 Karakas helps, but not quite enough. Often the only card Oath will be countering is the StP or Seal. Everything else goes through -- not like the creatures can match Akroma.
Stax. My experiences with workshop prison are mixed. The deck does well enough, barring early things like sphere of resistance and trinisphere (then again, all decks would have a hard time with that). Almost impossible to overcome CotV for 2 -- this is where blue splash for Energy Flux comes in mighty handy than just Kataki. I actually considered other 3cc artifact hosers (such as aura of silence). As luck would have it, I've won every single workshop prison matchup so far in tournaments. Playtesting is another matter, as people I test with are familiar with the deck and know that CotV for 2 practically finishes it off.
Workshop aggro. A better matchup in general than workshop prison. Samurai throws himself in front of juggernaut if he isn't watching over welder, and pithing needle also does a job against things like welder and trike, whose first target is usally Kataki and the Javelineers. StP takes care of the larger monsters, but I also run silver knight -- jitte+first strike+Javelineer backup for the win. In this build, I guess null rod is a bonus against trike and friends.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I Think I read that just so you know
Strange I think I did play vs one gifts deck or it was a deck with gifts in it. Sad part was even his FoWs did not seem to stop me enough. O ya it was gifts dragon combo of all decks, that was a shocker as much as me kicking it hard.
The trick is to beat the crap out of them as much as you can before they clasm. I had someone grap one from a burning wish. Though it did not seem to change to out come.
One thing my build that yours does not almost to much hate. Its funny that I do have jitte in my side I think as of now (if not I should have it in the side). But since it did not fit main deck for some reasons that you can see.
Overall vs the top decks it seems to do well. At least on MWS anyway. Some times I have run into a funky deck that it cant beat (like let say its tier 10 if you count that low) but they are decks no one is playing in the mager turnys anyway. But once im done building the r/g beats/tempo deck ill be building this and making it a real so I can get some real playtesting vs the decks in my area.
After the week testing as much as I could on MWS. Overall it can beat almost anydeck I have faced. Though if an Uba Stax deck treats it like u/w fish it can shut down the deck (CotV set a 2 first turn can really do a number to the deck). But overall so long as the deck im facing is not a real janky deck (like way on the low end of the curve) it seems like this vearshon of WW has a good game against it.
Things I have learned about the deck:
Weathered Wayfarer can become one of the most hated cards in the deck. Well once they get striped/wasted 5 times in a row and I win. True Beliver is a close 2nd in my testing that people try and deal with the most. Good or bad this seems to be the most common creatures either already hate or learn to hate if I pull them out.
Null Rod, Pithing Needle, and Kataki are a good team. That might sound weired as one hates out the other two. Trust me they for some reason work well for me some times almost to well. (I had someone ask what do you do vs none artifact decks just from these three cards hitting play and during there job well.)
The best sidebord seems to like this so far:
Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [US] Absolute Law
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [PY] Abolish
SB: 3 [9E] Sacred Ground
Odd looking but even as a 3 of each in the sidebord they seem to be at the right amount.
Just a little update. With a hope to get some more input into the thread.
In my experience Weathered Wayfarer is FAR to slow to be a major threat against a solid player. Samurai of the Pale Curtain is decent, but lacks in stoping Yawgmoth's Will at all...it only effects permanents...
Still, in the right meta this might do okay.
I think I got pinted to that list over on ABS. But I do not have any FoWs and im not that good with blue in general (never have been in all the 7 years I have been playing). Only blue card I have used is thoughtcast in the affinity deck I build.
yeh, you really gotta get lucky there, heh...
Its just an idea, the blue can help shore up the last of the disruption and FoW especially helps deal with the more broken plays other decks in the format are capable of.
But it comes down to this. Adding Red for the red half of R/G tempo/beats or adding the green part (both ideas I had and tested somewhat). Would that help the deck in some way? Is it better then just pure white.
Black gets harder (well maby till guildpack comes out but we will see) and blue realy easy to see what could be added (FoW, MMage, MLeak, BStorm, ect...).