As the building of the r/g tempo/beats draws to an end I wanted to trully see one of the decks I either built myself (with help from others) or one I helped put together. The first one I put together and the one that has not changed much since I did so in planning vs the main meta (Globel metagame). That deck has been the w/r list I put together, it has many of the tools needed to compete and a few others that the g/r tempo/beats has but lakes root maze to help slow the oponent. So it plays very simler but has its own charm. So while im finishing up with the other deck over the next few months its time to bring this deck out of the cubbered and into the light once more for people to look at. Though as I truly build the deck I will need to modify the plans just a little anyway so I can truly put the thing together in some form. Heres the deck:
Windswept Heath/Wooded Foothills: Every deck needes fetches and given that this deck needs seton color requirements to be met given its odd color mix it needs a mix of fetch lands since there are none that fetch r/w.
Plateau/Sacred Foundry: Since the fact that Plateaus are hard to get I will most likely need to depend on getting the rav land in order to fill in the hole that will linger here. Since this part of the deck is trully needed if the deck is to run at all.
Gorilla Shaman: Eats power artifacts, kills artifact lands, and kills off other cheep problem artifacts. Trully should be standard gear are any deck that has red in it (unless its tear one anyway).
Grim Lavamancer: Given that the deck should give enough cards in the yard (fetches, bolts, Swords, ect...) he should run fine. Plus every little bit of removel counts. Plus the fact that he is also a standard in many decks with red helps alot too.
True Believer: Anty combo card anyone? This is one of the best cards that white brings to the deck. When he hits play combo decks either need to deal with him then or hope the find some way to deal with him later. Plus he beats for two which is nice.
Savannah Lions/Isamaru, Hound of Konda: In a deck that has as much hate cramed in as this deck does. Plus the lack of an idea of what to put here that was not already covered and lacking some creature for beating the snot out the opponent the lions where in. People hounded me until I turned one of the lions into Isamaru from the fact the hes just slightly better.
Lightning Bolt: Given with how many ways the deck can already deal with welders it needs ways to also deal with agrro. Plus bolts have never really let me down in my other deck.
Enlightened Tutor: Given the fact that the deck does have alot of targets for this one card to fetch (even if most of them seem to show up in my test hands anyway). Its should be a good card in the real world for the deck (since MWS has a habit of messing with what you draw).
Seal of Cleansing: Pay and go disenchant and is one of the many targets the the one tutor can fetch. All ups for this one.
Null Rod: Shut stuff down be it power alot of stax stuff and other cards that can just ruin the decks day.
Squee's Embrace: Need a card like rancor in how good it is. This card just so happens to fill the same spot. The fact that is also can bring back a Legionnaire after I blow it up is nice. The fact that it can bring almost anything back when the creature goes helps. Plus it can turn even the weeker creatures into threats.
and to end the post ill give the strong points and Supa_Tim had them a while ago (note: The deck had Pyro Piller maindeck at the time and it should probly be in the sidebord too).
Quote from Supa_Tim »
Against Storm Combo:
4 True believer
3 Null rod
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Gorilla shaman (to a degree)
and since combo doesn't run wastes, unless they duress or Fow all of these guys can come down turn 2. Luckily the density of the hate is enough so that even if they do duress there is a good chance that they can't hit everything, and IIRC the only combo deck running FoW is TPS.
Against Control:
4 True Believer
3 Null Rod
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Gorilla Shaman
OMG, the same hate! True believer stops gifts and Slaver. Rod slows Gifts and stops Slaver. Pillar just makes it a pain for them to play spells. Gorilla shaman especially angers welders. Other cards that are usefull against control are STP (because of Oath and DSC) and Seal of Cleansing (mostly because of Oath, but can hit moxen, so never dead).
Against Stax:
3 Null Rod
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Seal of Cleansing
Hrm, so this seems to be the weak spot. Unfortunately, Stax is one of the most (if not THE most) popular decks out there right now. I'm not incredibly worried about the matchup though, because R/W offers some of the best SB utility cards against Stax. Also, the deck has a lot of answers to Welder Stax, which can ruin the Stax player's day.
Against Dragon:
4 True Believer
4 Swords to Plowshares
With Dragon sorta being more expected I think we need to look at this matchup. It is sorta worrying, but I don't think it will be played enough to warrant any changes.
Against Fish:
Too much to list.
Theoretically, this deck should pwn Fish's face in. A resolved lavamancer can be gg. Bolt, STP, and Goblin help out as well. I just can't think of a common situation where they would out aggro you.
I could not fit him in. But given that there was those three spots. I could but him in, in there place (so lions and the hound would be out). That would help the deck vs stax even more. Plus it does deal with the vannila creatures in the deck problem.
But if anyone says add lavadart to the deck (needs more welder kill in there eyes) they need to look at how many things can deal with welder already. Since I do not want this to degrad like the last thread I started about tempo on here happened.
I think he prefers using the mox monkey instead of kataki. I would probably run 3 Kataki and 1 Gorilla Shaman. The shaman may have too much trouble eating anything bigger than 0 or 1 in the early game (Tinker for Colossus anyone?). While Kataki does tie up the opponent's mana, the ability to outright destroy should remain. I would also look at changing at least one Savannah Lions for another Isamaru, just to keep pesky one power creatures from getting in a few early hits.
No shaman should be in the deck at the same time the lions and hound are the thing that should go. Think about it.
Kataki hits for two so do the hound and the lions. Kataki is in a way a lion that costs just 1 more for a very good ability. With out shaman to keep them down then kataki taking down other things (same whith seal) while Null rod seals it vs the other things. The hate is strong vs the high end decks as it should be and it can easily still out aggro many of the common agro decks.
First I question the need of 4 true belivers and the goblin legionares. Legionare just seems like an overcosted fanatic. 4 True belivers also seems excessive.
For further insight into R/W Tempo decks, I suggest you check out The Mountain Wins again thread on TMD, here is the link: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24662.0. This deck actually orginated were I live and I gain vouch for its power.
Legionnaire might look like an overcosted fantic but keep in mind he also beats for 2 while fantic beats for only 1 and he can take down larger creatures. Think of it this way he can either beat for 2 and then hit something for two. Yes he costs more buy 2 in order to use but you get what you pay for. The white ability is just extra and so far in the testing I never have had to use it.
Why 4 true belivers yes the deck might not seem like it needs them at all. But with every level of protection that can be added to the deck it means it can hold its own just that mush longer. Plus with out draw the deck needs as many as it can get.
Me and the creature of that thread are dealing with the same problems when it comes to the lack of draw in different ways. I know he is a top poster at TMD and im not (hardly post there) and he has tones more credit to his name then I do. But trust me some what that I know what im doing.
Squee's Embrace really isn't that good, imo, nor is Enlightened Tutor in this deck. Tutor just doesn't cut it as it is card disadvantage, searches for like 2 cards which are already 3 ofs. You need Kataki which should be a 3 of. Perhaps you should have Genju of the Spires as a threat. It's supper aggressive, slips easily under counterwalls, and puts most opponants on a 3 turn clock once active. On the same note, Blood Moon should be extreemly effective against most decks in the modern meta (although expesnive). It facilitates genju quite well shuts some control decks off to certain colors, eliminates Orchard tokens of oath (giving you free range to beat down with genju), slows down stax decks, shutting them off to 4 colors in 5-color stax, turns of bazaars in uba, and generalls just shuts down workshop. Get it to resolve and it creates huge advantage for you.
On the sideboard, what is the purpose of tempest? Besides oath, what enchantments need you really worry about? Perhaps other stuff could be better in that particular slot.
The Embrace was really not my idea. Some one gave it as a way to increase the beating power of the creatures in the deck. The Tutor was also not really my idea heres a link to the thread when I first posted the deck:
Some one was looking at a r/w deck on the wizos and Supa_Tim posted my deck saying that some one was testing the deck with the embrace. It took the place of pyro piller in the deck.
My only problem with the Genju and blood moon really is one turns off the duels that the deck needs and well as shuts down the decks own waste effects. Other then those the Genju costs more to ativate (3 lands to use) for then even the Legiobbaire and is three times a week when it comes to what type of card it is (an enchant land that can become a creature can be killed off 3 ways even if ne way will bring it back to my hand). The Genju just is not enduring enough to use for my tasts.
The sidebord is the thing thats most open to change since I wont worry about that much until I start to get the deck together.
samurai of the pale curtain is too limited IMO...yes he is good against stax but he fails to be really effective against decks such as Gifts and Dragon (or even storm combo read: Yawg Will) Id almost just rather have tormods crypt or phyrexian furnace in that spot...
Blood Moon is also a really good option, but youd have to tweak the mana base a bit to make it work (or the spell base and make it a bit more red)
the sam was moved to the side and the sidebord is the most changable part of the deck. Im more worried about the main deck right now. Since once I start getting cards for the deck thats the main thing ill be getting stuff for at the start. But I might just want to take some time and love the fact that im almost done building the r/g tempo/beats deck. Since I could also build the ABS dragon they have posted on the wizo bords (then adjust the dragon deck from there). Truly im still thinking on it.
Ya blood moon is good just I would just haft to adjust the deck to much in order to make it work. Plus I feel it would work better in a deck that did not need as many wastelands and duels (namly mono red). Just what I think but thats just me.
@Lunar I wish I could go to the turnies in your area. Just well the first one I would still be revering from texas and my mom and dad might not to keen to get me up there (even if Stew said he pick me up but that opens a whole can of wurms I do not want to go into). Before I can truly go anywhere I need to move out and have a good job. Just so you know.
Well, bloodmoon does wasteland's job effectivly to every new nonbasic (worshops being mountains and you having +1 lands is fairly on par with each player having neither). You just need to add a) more plains, or b) remove some white. As long as you utalize your duels to fetch plains instead of plateaus you should be okay. Blood Moons are extreemly effective if resolved against almost every deck.
But given that I had a brain storm and am going to be building a different deck then this. Well once im done finishing up getting the stuff for the other deck that I won the last turny I went to with (5 cards are still missing from the main deck and sidebord total). The deck well its going to be G/B Oath (which I have posted on the ABS bords) I found that I have close to half the deck already I just do not have the key peaces nor a few of the other meaty things I want to put into the deck.
Since given that my meta lack Oath hate or much of it anyway. The deck should work well even if its a weeker vershon of oath since of the lack of blue and the fact that I have 3 creatures total instead of the standard two creatures. But it should get the job done once its built and then I modify the deck to my full tasts and such and let things go from there.
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2 Mountain
2 Windswept Heath
4 Plains
4 Plateau
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
Creatures 19
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 True Believer
2 Savannah Lions
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Null Rod
4 Squee's Embrace
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Tempest of Light
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Windswept Heath/Wooded Foothills: Every deck needes fetches and given that this deck needs seton color requirements to be met given its odd color mix it needs a mix of fetch lands since there are none that fetch r/w.
Plateau/Sacred Foundry: Since the fact that Plateaus are hard to get I will most likely need to depend on getting the rav land in order to fill in the hole that will linger here. Since this part of the deck is trully needed if the deck is to run at all.
Strip Mine/Wasteland: Standard gear for this type of deck.
Goblin Legionnaire: This card is better then both Ication Javelineers and Mogg Fantic so its a naturel one for the deck and is in fact the card that trully gave the idea of the deck to me.
Gorilla Shaman: Eats power artifacts, kills artifact lands, and kills off other cheep problem artifacts. Trully should be standard gear are any deck that has red in it (unless its tear one anyway).
Grim Lavamancer: Given that the deck should give enough cards in the yard (fetches, bolts, Swords, ect...) he should run fine. Plus every little bit of removel counts. Plus the fact that he is also a standard in many decks with red helps alot too.
True Believer: Anty combo card anyone? This is one of the best cards that white brings to the deck. When he hits play combo decks either need to deal with him then or hope the find some way to deal with him later. Plus he beats for two which is nice.
Savannah Lions/Isamaru, Hound of Konda: In a deck that has as much hate cramed in as this deck does. Plus the lack of an idea of what to put here that was not already covered and lacking some creature for beating the snot out the opponent the lions where in. People hounded me until I turned one of the lions into Isamaru from the fact the hes just slightly better.
Swords to Plowshares: Whites best removal card. Thats all I need to say here.
Lightning Bolt: Given with how many ways the deck can already deal with welders it needs ways to also deal with agrro. Plus bolts have never really let me down in my other deck.
Enlightened Tutor: Given the fact that the deck does have alot of targets for this one card to fetch (even if most of them seem to show up in my test hands anyway). Its should be a good card in the real world for the deck (since MWS has a habit of messing with what you draw).
Seal of Cleansing: Pay and go disenchant and is one of the many targets the the one tutor can fetch. All ups for this one.
Null Rod: Shut stuff down be it power alot of stax stuff and other cards that can just ruin the decks day.
Squee's Embrace: Need a card like rancor in how good it is. This card just so happens to fill the same spot. The fact that is also can bring back a Legionnaire after I blow it up is nice. The fact that it can bring almost anything back when the creature goes helps. Plus it can turn even the weeker creatures into threats.
and to end the post ill give the strong points and Supa_Tim had them a while ago (note: The deck had Pyro Piller maindeck at the time and it should probly be in the sidebord too).
2 Mountain
2 Windswept Heath
4 Plains
4 Plateau
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
Creatures 19
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 True Believer
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Null Rod
4 Squee's Embrace
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Tempest of Light
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Umezawa's Jitte
But if anyone says add lavadart to the deck (needs more welder kill in there eyes) they need to look at how many things can deal with welder already. Since I do not want this to degrad like the last thread I started about tempo on here happened.
Kataki hits for two so do the hound and the lions. Kataki is in a way a lion that costs just 1 more for a very good ability. With out shaman to keep them down then kataki taking down other things (same whith seal) while Null rod seals it vs the other things. The hate is strong vs the high end decks as it should be and it can easily still out aggro many of the common agro decks.
For further insight into R/W Tempo decks, I suggest you check out The Mountain Wins again thread on TMD, here is the link: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24662.0. This deck actually orginated were I live and I gain vouch for its power.
Legionnaire might look like an overcosted fantic but keep in mind he also beats for 2 while fantic beats for only 1 and he can take down larger creatures. Think of it this way he can either beat for 2 and then hit something for two. Yes he costs more buy 2 in order to use but you get what you pay for. The white ability is just extra and so far in the testing I never have had to use it.
Why 4 true belivers yes the deck might not seem like it needs them at all. But with every level of protection that can be added to the deck it means it can hold its own just that mush longer. Plus with out draw the deck needs as many as it can get.
Me and the creature of that thread are dealing with the same problems when it comes to the lack of draw in different ways. I know he is a top poster at TMD and im not (hardly post there) and he has tones more credit to his name then I do. But trust me some what that I know what im doing.
On the sideboard, what is the purpose of tempest? Besides oath, what enchantments need you really worry about? Perhaps other stuff could be better in that particular slot.
http://s10.invisionfree.com/Team_ABS/index.php?showtopic=1258
Some one was looking at a r/w deck on the wizos and Supa_Tim posted my deck saying that some one was testing the deck with the embrace. It took the place of pyro piller in the deck.
My only problem with the Genju and blood moon really is one turns off the duels that the deck needs and well as shuts down the decks own waste effects. Other then those the Genju costs more to ativate (3 lands to use) for then even the Legiobbaire and is three times a week when it comes to what type of card it is (an enchant land that can become a creature can be killed off 3 ways even if ne way will bring it back to my hand). The Genju just is not enduring enough to use for my tasts.
The sidebord is the thing thats most open to change since I wont worry about that much until I start to get the deck together.
Blood Moon is also a really good option, but youd have to tweak the mana base a bit to make it work (or the spell base and make it a bit more red)
Ya blood moon is good just I would just haft to adjust the deck to much in order to make it work. Plus I feel it would work better in a deck that did not need as many wastelands and duels (namly mono red). Just what I think but thats just me.
@Lunar I wish I could go to the turnies in your area. Just well the first one I would still be revering from texas and my mom and dad might not to keen to get me up there (even if Stew said he pick me up but that opens a whole can of wurms I do not want to go into). Before I can truly go anywhere I need to move out and have a good job. Just so you know.
Since given that my meta lack Oath hate or much of it anyway. The deck should work well even if its a weeker vershon of oath since of the lack of blue and the fact that I have 3 creatures total instead of the standard two creatures. But it should get the job done once its built and then I modify the deck to my full tasts and such and let things go from there.