RW control using the Icy Manipulator/Winter Orb along with Black Vice was tournament competitive around 1996 or so. I have not followed Magic at all since Visions was released in 1997 (or thereabouts) so I'm not familiar with rule changes that I heard came out with sixth edition (I think) and I know nothing about this rumored "power creep".
I took some liberties with this since I never actually owned some of these but I figured if proxies are allowed then I might as well proxy.
The concept is lockdown but it's also a bit of a 'jack of all trades'. All cards are picked to have some degree of symmetry with each other OR to have multiple possible uses. Like Lightning Bolt. I've used Lightning Bolt to target my opponent, his creatures, and even my creatures in certain rare situations. I've used them to slowly ping my opponent to death, I've used three at once for a big final burn, and I've used one to make a mutual death against cards like Hurricane.
This deck worked pretty well against necropotence. It did passably well against Blue Permission - particularly if they didn't have a way to deal with Mishra's Factories. It had big troubles with white weenie. Land Destruction decks weren't much trouble usually - though there was one BRG I played against that could occasionally manascrew me. Erhnam Burn-em' could be a problem. I vaguely remember 10-20 other common deck constructions that it performed reasonably well against.
I almost never got manascrewed because the bulk of my cards were either low mana cost or artifacts. (That was a necessity considering everyone I played against had land destruction decks.) I usually had some kind of a combination of some sort by the third turn. Disenchant was kind of my MVP - I was very aggressive with it.
What I really wanted at the time was a better means of cycling through my deck. Jayemdae Tome was okay sometimes when mana was plentiful but it's clunky. I could really tell the difference between Land Tax being in play (powerful) versus the Tome (kind of weak)
I'm satisfied with the white control but I'd be open to an alternative if something better has been printed. I would LOVE to have some recyclable direct damage like Hammer of Bogardan but the Hammer costs too much for my tastes. I was thinking about Browbeat. The drawback is significant if you're relying on one effect or the other. In practice I've found that I often use Lightning Bolts to whittle down my opponents' life and I'm almost always wishing I had more cards. Since I'm reactive with this deck - trying to create an advantageous field rather than an unbeatable combo - I think that such a card would be better for me than it would for most.
I HAVE tried to make howling mine work, but it's like I said above. Since I'm not trying for any particular combo it rarely helps me. It usually helps my opponent establish their combo on the other hand.
Anything you have to say would be of great interest to me. It's safe to assume that I know nothing. Planeswalkers and Commanders? Eh?
i haven't played much of vintage either but nowadays i would definitely include lightning helix and boros guildmages for a start and probably take out the sandstalkers for giant soulfuges, and savvannah lions for ismaru hounds of konda, take out the serra angels completely take out the jayamdae tomes, instead of disenchants play path to exile, i think they may have unrestricted land tax and since you are playing real vintage add all of the other moxes, and at least vamp and demonic tutor and play dual/fetch lands. just a thought. id probably still keep the armageddons but add in elesha norn grand cenobite it gives your creatures +2/+2 and your opponents creatures -2/2 and has attacking doesn't cause it to tap(vilgilance) and is a 5/7
i play mask/dreadnaught in type 1 its just for fun....i am not sure if you know the combo because for the life of me i can't remember if visions came out before or after mirage phyrexian dreadnaught is from mirage its a 11/11 trample for 1 mana which you can play with illusionary mask and flip to bypass the come into play effect which makes you sac 11 toughness worth of creatures or sac it. you can usually dig into 2 dreadnaughts by turn 2 and time walk for the win by turn 3 aren't you kicking yourself for ripping up those bazzar of baghdads when they were worth $1 lol i am
If you have the last post in a thread, please use the edit button. Do not make multiple posts. Also please use card tags -Urweak
Icy Manipulator also does not work the way it did before Sixth Edition. You can no longer use manipulator to tap down a sol ring (lets say) to stop them from producing mana.
Interrupts were changed and are all considered "instants" now.
A Perhaps theres a ruling im not aware of but assuming that there is still an upkeep phase and assuming that the mana pool clears after every phase then you could still use an icy to tap a mana source during the upkeep. Then your opponent could certainly take the mana if he wishes but theres not much that can be cast during upkeep. Hed have to use it, lose it, or get mana burned.
A Perhaps theres a ruling im not aware of but assuming that there is still an upkeep phase and assuming that the mana pool clears after every phase then you could still use an icy to tap a mana source during the upkeep. Then your opponent could certainly take the mana if he wishes but theres not much that can be cast during upkeep. Hed have to use it, lose it, or get mana burned.
Mana burn doesn't exist anymore but other than that you have a handle on it.
Also to be clear tapping artifacts no longer "turns them off" unless it specifically says so on the card. So all the old Orb/Icy shenanigans dont work any more.
Well thats a kick in the junk. I dont even understand that change. Getting rid of fast effects and interrupts seems unnecessary but i can see the logic for it if you're marketing a game. But that other bit seems solely targeted at icys, which were never in the same power level as the power nine and other awesome vintage cards.
i haven't played much of vintage either but nowadays i would definitely include lightning helix and boros guildmages for a start and probably take out the sandstalkers for giant soulfuges, and savvannah lions for ismaru hounds of konda, take out the serra angels completely take out the jayamdae tomes, instead of disenchants play path to exile, i think they may have unrestricted land tax and since you are playing real vintage add all of the other moxes, and at least vamp and demonic tutor and play dual/fetch lands. just a thought. id probably still keep the armageddons but add in elesha norn grand cenobite it gives your creatures +2/+2 and your opponents creatures -2/2 and has attacking doesn't cause it to tap(vilgilance) and is a 5/7
Sorry it took longer to get back to you. I was in a place where it would've been difficult to look up all of those cards.
The one thing I cannot do is to give up my disenchants. Do people not play artifacts and enchantments any more?
Lightning Helix is very interesting but I don't care much for gold cards. Boros Guildmage looks like a great card but I'm short on creatures so I'm not sure how much it would help me. I notice that you're recommending lots of extra creatures actually but I want as few as I can effectively run.
Giant Soulfuges seem like a slightly better card than Viashinos but I'm wary of the extra red mana cost. I will be playing against two guys who probably won't have heard that land destruction is out of style. I'll have to think on it. The Isamaru Hound of Konda on the other hand is awesome. I love that.
Elesha Norn Grand Cenobite is seven mana. I mean - I know Lotus and Moxes can get you there quickly but still I almost never had seven mana available in any game (and on the rare occasion when I did it was Fireball time)
Phyrexian Dreadnought? Disenchant. LOL.
That's a pretty cool combo but it serves to illustrate exactly why I would never give up my disenchants. In fact I think I need more artifact and enchantment control. Maybe some sligh beasts that have that effect?
I looked at the card quality guide and I noticed that most of my old cards would fall under the category of HP. All for whitening too. I mean - I played the same deck for a good 3 years straight, a couple times a day every day of the week.
If you have the last post in a thread, please use the edit button. Do not make multiple posts -Urweak
Disenchant effects are still good in Vintage, mostly for destroying artifacts, which are everywhere. As such, the red versions see more play than white versions. Ingot Chewer is a good choice for today's Vintage. It can be cast for simply to destroy an artifact or saved for attacking later in the game if no artifacts need destroying.
The general structure of your deck reminds me of another deck called Angel Stompy. It played small, white creatures and Exalted Angel, which it would play as early as turn 2. Older versions could also run similar control elements to your deck in the form of Disenchant and Armageddon. Instead of Bolts, it ran Swords to Plowshares, one of the best white cards ever printed. You should definitely consider Swords any time you have access to :symw:.
Finally, I know you don't like gold cards, but perhaps you should consider Ajani Vengeant. He pretty much does everything you want your deck to do. Although Ajani doesn't see any real Vintage play to my knowledge, he's not bad and might be a fun inclusion for you. He may also help you get to know how planeswalkers work.
Disenchant effects are still good in Vintage, mostly for destroying artifacts, which are everywhere. As such, the red versions see more play than white versions. Ingot Chewer is a good choice for today's Vintage. It can be cast for simply to destroy an artifact or saved for attacking later in the game if no artifacts need destroying.
The general structure of your deck reminds me of another deck called Angel Stompy. It played small, white creatures and Exalted Angel, which it would play as early as turn 2. Older versions could also run similar control elements to your deck in the form of Disenchant and Armageddon. Instead of Bolts, it ran Swords to Plowshares, one of the best white cards ever printed. You should definitely consider Swords any time you have access to :symw:.
Finally, I know you don't like gold cards, but perhaps you should consider Ajani Vengeant. He pretty much does everything you want your deck to do. Although Ajani doesn't see any real Vintage play to my knowledge, he's not bad and might be a fun inclusion for you. He may also help you get to know how planeswalkers work.
I have no idea what that Ajani card means but it's got a lot of the stuff I like. Very interested. Don't know what planeswalkers are but I suppose it's time to learn.
I have swords to plowshares. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the game has changed to mandate their use but I prefer to use bolts for creature control whenever possible. I do understand the advantages of swords to plowshares but I actually like to use Lightning Bolts to ping my opponent when I can.
I don't know if this fact has been lost to the sands of time but when I last played Magic there were very few creatures that couldn't be dealt with via Lightning bolts or resource control. You're talking about a VERY small list that included Ehrnam Djinn, Juzam Djinn, Juggernaut, stuff like that. From what I've seen creatures nowadays provide much better power and toughness relative to their converted mana cost. If I can't deal with creatures with bolts or icys then I'll use plowshares. It's not something I'm looking forward to.
Ingot Chewer is pretty much what I was thinking of. Yeah I am interested in something like that. Don't really like the casting cost though. I get antsy about anything over 4. Even Serra Angels - though I have a hard time getting rid of them because a Serra Angel was my first real treasure. It won me so many games when my friends and I were still learning the game.
As an aside - I remembered something that my best friend once said about my deck. He called it a PERMISSION deck. Even though it's :symr:/:symw: it plays like permission. They knew that I'd kill artifacts and enchantments with great fervor and any key creature they put out would be eliminated from the board as soon as they laid it down.
It's not as effective as blue counterspells by any means but white has those great control cards and red direct damage solves lots of problems that blue struggles to answer.
Which is not to say that this deck would be anything special in the present day of course. It was good enough for it's time.
Figure of Destiny is AWESOME! That is exactly the kind of creature I like! Scalability! GREAT! REP!
If you have the last post in a thread, please use the edit button. Do not make multiple posts. Also please use card tags -Urweak
I noticed this thread from the main forums, and even though I don't play Vintage anymore, I thought I'd come in and give you a quick rundown of the rather lengthy changes this game has gone through, some of which have already been mentioned in this thread.
As of Classic: 6th edition.
Batches and Interrupts removed - All interrupts were changed to Instants.
The Stack was created - The stack was created so that activated abilities, instants, damage prevention, and triggered abilities could all work the same way. The stack will allow players to respond to anything played.
Triggered Abilities Changed so they can be responded too. (Enters the battlefield creature effects.)
Damage Prevention and damage "dealt" Changed slightly.
Upkeep is now a step and combat is now a phase.
You lose immediately when you are at 0 life.
Non-creature Artifacts no longer "turn off" when they are tapped to bring them inline with every other type of card.
Phase abilities replaced with triggered abilities.
End of Turn actions altered slightly.
2 Large changes were made to Combat - Tapped blockers now deal damage, and Combat Damage now uses the Stack (Has since changed again, see below).
Abilities that add mana are now Mana Abilities and do not use the stack, and cannot be responded too.
As of Magic 2010
Players now Mulligan simultaneously.
Terminology Change - "In pay area" changed to Battlefield.
Terminology Change - Cast, Play and Activate: Spells are cast, Lands are played and Abilities are Activated.
Removed from play becomes Exile, it has it's own zone called the "Exiled Zone."
"Beginning of the End Step" wording clarifies "at end of turn" and "until end of turn."
Mana Burn removed - mana now empties at the end of every Step and phase.
Tokens are now owned by the player who's control they are under when they enter the battlefield.
Combat damage no longer uses the Stack. Double blocking rules changed.
Deathtouch changed to a static ability and allows a double-blocked creature to ignore the new damage assignment rules.
Lifelink changed to a static ability.
These are the major rulings updates that have happened since you've been gone, you can ask for clarification or help about the rules or interactions you don't understand in the Magic Rulings forum.
Along with that there have also been several design shifts since you've been gone. The Color Pie has changed over the years, many abilities are in different colors now, although outliers still exist. Many more abilities have also been keyworded now.
The last change in design is that creatures have been steadily increasing in power. WoTC felt creatures were too weak, and began increasing their power around the Alara block.
I have no idea what that Ajani card means but it's got a lot of the stuff I like. Very interested. Don't know what planeswalkers are but I suppose it's time to learn.
I have swords to plowshares. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the game has changed to mandate their use but I prefer to use bolts for creature control whenever possible. I do understand the advantages of swords to plowshares but I actually like to use Lightning Bolts to ping my opponent when I can.
I don't know if this fact has been lost to the sands of time but when I last played Magic there were very few creatures that couldn't be dealt with via Lightning bolts or resource control. You're talking about a VERY small list that included Ehrnam Djinn, Juzam Djinn, Juggernaut, stuff like that. From what I've seen creatures nowadays provide much better power and toughness relative to their converted mana cost. If I can't deal with creatures with bolts or icys then I'll use plowshares. It's not something I'm looking forward to.
The last bit is pretty much the state of things. Non-Tribal Creatures are generally too large to die to Bolt. Swords to plowshares is a format staple in both Eternal formats. Bolt will still get rid of utility creatures, but most creatures are pretty beefy. You'd Need Swords to Plowshares to survive against a Blightsteel Colossus cheated in with Oath of Druids
Ingot Chewer is pretty much what I was thinking of. Yeah I am interested in something like that. Don't really like the casting cost though. I get antsy about anything over 4. Even Serra Angels - though I have a hard time getting rid of them because a Serra Angel was my first real treasure. It won me so many games when my friends and I were still learning the game.
Ingot Chewer is played for it's evoke cost, not it's actual casting cost, it would almost never be hardcast. And Although I can understand your sentimental reasons for Serra Angel, unfortunately stuff like Baneslayer Angel really pushed the power curve for creatures.
As an aside - I remembered something that my best friend once said about my deck. He called it a PERMISSION deck. Even though it's :symr:/:symw: it plays like permission. They knew that I'd kill artifacts and enchantments with great fervor and any key creature they put out would be eliminated from the board as soon as they laid it down.
It's not as effective as blue counterspells by any means but white has those great control cards and red direct damage solves lots of problems that blue struggles to answer.
Which is not to say that this deck would be anything special in the present day of course. It was good enough for it's time.
Figure of Destiny is AWESOME! That is exactly the kind of creature I like! Scalability! GREAT! REP!
As an aside, If your not super attached to running power and the like, you can also look into the Legacy format. It was formerly Type 1.5, but its banned list was split from Type 1's back in 2004, and is now the most played eternal format.
I have swords to plowshares. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the game has changed to mandate their use but I prefer to use bolts for creature control whenever possible. I do understand the advantages of swords to plowshares but I actually like to use Lightning Bolts to ping my opponent when I can.
I don't know if this fact has been lost to the sands of time but when I last played Magic there were very few creatures that couldn't be dealt with via Lightning bolts or resource control. You're talking about a VERY small list that included Ehrnam Djinn, Juzam Djinn, Juggernaut, stuff like that. From what I've seen creatures nowadays provide much better power and toughness relative to their converted mana cost. If I can't deal with creatures with bolts or icys then I'll use plowshares. It's not something I'm looking forward to.
Oh, I didn't mean for you not to run Bolts. The deck I refered to was mono-white so it couldn't use burn. Don't worry, Lightning Bolt is still one of the best red spells around. It hits tons of creatures in Legacy and Vintage. But Swords are definitely something you could consider in addition, perhaps replacing Earthquake or Incinerate.
Another kick in the teeth. No wonder people don't use Disenchant when game-changing artifact creatures are being designed to not be affected by it.
Well Goblin Welder is a nice little creature - I like that one.
My wife helped me find a small pile of old cards and some newer ones that I guess I must have bought at some point. They look like ninth edition and Saviors of Kamigawa? It's strange seeing these because most of my most treasured cards are still missing but I do have a few gems mixed in like my revised Regrowth and Demonic Tutor.
Then there's a foil Serra Angel. I don't even care if it's not the coolest white creature any more. I'm gonna spend some time looking through these - see if I have some treasures.
I didn't know whether it would be better to create a new thread or to bump this one. I've revised my plans and I would like new feedback. Unfortunately I did not know if the thread would be marked unread for other users if I used the edit function so I opted to create a new post.
Concept - slow burn.
When you face this deck you should expect to play under the constraints of Winter Orb. The Winter Orb will hardly affect this deck at all. The highest cost of any spell is CMC 3 and most of them are 2 or 1. Including Winter Orb, Wasteland and Strip Mine there are a number of different cards that encourage your opponent to lay down lands - especially Path to Exile. This plays together well with Land Tax and Scroll Rack which is a well known combination.
I'd like to stress that I do not expect this deck to be powerful in a tournament setting. I think it will do pretty well in kitchen table magic and I'd love to hear opinions on this revised construction.
Opening -
76% of the time you're going to get a first turn creature in your opening draw. There is land destruction and cheap creature control enough to try to get a few hits on your opponent. When they're not available for those purposes they can still be combined with a Lightning Bolt for creature control up to 5 toughness. There is an 85% chance that you'll have a 1 or 2 CMC creature control spell in your opening draw.
Ideally you'll get a Winter Orb and a Land Tax. Zuran Orb and the Moxen are appreciated.
If you get the Winter Orb down then you can afford to do nothing but draw a card on some turns. I thought about using Black Vise but I figure that it would be too easy for my opponent to stay out of the damage in this format. Thought about using Ivory Tower as well but figured Zuran Orb had better synergy with Land Tax. Winter Orb is there primarily to punish opponents for casting stuff that costs more than CMC 4 or so. It's also a way to say "screw you" to permission and control decks. Mishra's Factory is in there for a similar reason. Grim Lavamancer recycles the discarded lands and instants for extra direct damage.
With Zuran Orb and Lightning Helix in play Earthquake becomes a fair choice for weenie control and delivering the finishing blow. Land's Edge is in there because I'm feeling frivolous.
Balance is usually an "I win" card for this deck and Wheel of Fortune is of course a very powerful draw.
I took some liberties with this since I never actually owned some of these but I figured if proxies are allowed then I might as well proxy.
The concept is lockdown but it's also a bit of a 'jack of all trades'. All cards are picked to have some degree of symmetry with each other OR to have multiple possible uses. Like Lightning Bolt. I've used Lightning Bolt to target my opponent, his creatures, and even my creatures in certain rare situations. I've used them to slowly ping my opponent to death, I've used three at once for a big final burn, and I've used one to make a mutual death against cards like Hurricane.
This deck worked pretty well against necropotence. It did passably well against Blue Permission - particularly if they didn't have a way to deal with Mishra's Factories. It had big troubles with white weenie. Land Destruction decks weren't much trouble usually - though there was one BRG I played against that could occasionally manascrew me. Erhnam Burn-em' could be a problem. I vaguely remember 10-20 other common deck constructions that it performed reasonably well against.
I almost never got manascrewed because the bulk of my cards were either low mana cost or artifacts. (That was a necessity considering everyone I played against had land destruction decks.) I usually had some kind of a combination of some sort by the third turn. Disenchant was kind of my MVP - I was very aggressive with it.
What I really wanted at the time was a better means of cycling through my deck. Jayemdae Tome was okay sometimes when mana was plentiful but it's clunky. I could really tell the difference between Land Tax being in play (powerful) versus the Tome (kind of weak)
I'm satisfied with the white control but I'd be open to an alternative if something better has been printed. I would LOVE to have some recyclable direct damage like Hammer of Bogardan but the Hammer costs too much for my tastes. I was thinking about Browbeat. The drawback is significant if you're relying on one effect or the other. In practice I've found that I often use Lightning Bolts to whittle down my opponents' life and I'm almost always wishing I had more cards. Since I'm reactive with this deck - trying to create an advantageous field rather than an unbeatable combo - I think that such a card would be better for me than it would for most.
I HAVE tried to make howling mine work, but it's like I said above. Since I'm not trying for any particular combo it rarely helps me. It usually helps my opponent establish their combo on the other hand.
Anything you have to say would be of great interest to me. It's safe to assume that I know nothing. Planeswalkers and Commanders? Eh?
6 Plains
6 Mountain
4 Plateau
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
Creature
2 Viashino Sandstalker
2 Ball Lightning
2 Serra Angel
2 Savannah Lions
Artifact
1 Ivory Tower
1 Black Vice
4 Icy Manipulator
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
2 Winter Orb
2 Jayamdae Tome
1 Zuran Orb
4 Disenchant
1 Armageddon
1 Balance
1 Land Tax
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Earthquake
2 Incinerate
i play mask/dreadnaught in type 1 its just for fun....i am not sure if you know the combo because for the life of me i can't remember if visions came out before or after mirage phyrexian dreadnaught is from mirage its a 11/11 trample for 1 mana which you can play with illusionary mask and flip to bypass the come into play effect which makes you sac 11 toughness worth of creatures or sac it. you can usually dig into 2 dreadnaughts by turn 2 and time walk for the win by turn 3 aren't you kicking yourself for ripping up those bazzar of baghdads when they were worth $1 lol i am
If you have the last post in a thread, please use the edit button. Do not make multiple posts. Also please use card tags -Urweak
Interrupts were changed and are all considered "instants" now.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
Mana burn doesn't exist anymore but other than that you have a handle on it.
Also to be clear tapping artifacts no longer "turns them off" unless it specifically says so on the card. So all the old Orb/Icy shenanigans dont work any more.
Sorry it took longer to get back to you. I was in a place where it would've been difficult to look up all of those cards.
The one thing I cannot do is to give up my disenchants. Do people not play artifacts and enchantments any more?
Lightning Helix is very interesting but I don't care much for gold cards. Boros Guildmage looks like a great card but I'm short on creatures so I'm not sure how much it would help me. I notice that you're recommending lots of extra creatures actually but I want as few as I can effectively run.
Giant Soulfuges seem like a slightly better card than Viashinos but I'm wary of the extra red mana cost. I will be playing against two guys who probably won't have heard that land destruction is out of style. I'll have to think on it. The Isamaru Hound of Konda on the other hand is awesome. I love that.
Elesha Norn Grand Cenobite is seven mana. I mean - I know Lotus and Moxes can get you there quickly but still I almost never had seven mana available in any game (and on the rare occasion when I did it was Fireball time)
Phyrexian Dreadnought? Disenchant. LOL.
That's a pretty cool combo but it serves to illustrate exactly why I would never give up my disenchants. In fact I think I need more artifact and enchantment control. Maybe some sligh beasts that have that effect?
I looked at the card quality guide and I noticed that most of my old cards would fall under the category of HP. All for whitening too. I mean - I played the same deck for a good 3 years straight, a couple times a day every day of the week.
If you have the last post in a thread, please use the edit button. Do not make multiple posts -Urweak
The general structure of your deck reminds me of another deck called Angel Stompy. It played small, white creatures and Exalted Angel, which it would play as early as turn 2. Older versions could also run similar control elements to your deck in the form of Disenchant and Armageddon. Instead of Bolts, it ran Swords to Plowshares, one of the best white cards ever printed. You should definitely consider Swords any time you have access to :symw:.
Finally, I know you don't like gold cards, but perhaps you should consider Ajani Vengeant. He pretty much does everything you want your deck to do. Although Ajani doesn't see any real Vintage play to my knowledge, he's not bad and might be a fun inclusion for you. He may also help you get to know how planeswalkers work.
I have no idea what that Ajani card means but it's got a lot of the stuff I like. Very interested. Don't know what planeswalkers are but I suppose it's time to learn.
I have swords to plowshares. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the game has changed to mandate their use but I prefer to use bolts for creature control whenever possible. I do understand the advantages of swords to plowshares but I actually like to use Lightning Bolts to ping my opponent when I can.
I don't know if this fact has been lost to the sands of time but when I last played Magic there were very few creatures that couldn't be dealt with via Lightning bolts or resource control. You're talking about a VERY small list that included Ehrnam Djinn, Juzam Djinn, Juggernaut, stuff like that. From what I've seen creatures nowadays provide much better power and toughness relative to their converted mana cost. If I can't deal with creatures with bolts or icys then I'll use plowshares. It's not something I'm looking forward to.
Ingot Chewer is pretty much what I was thinking of. Yeah I am interested in something like that. Don't really like the casting cost though. I get antsy about anything over 4. Even Serra Angels - though I have a hard time getting rid of them because a Serra Angel was my first real treasure. It won me so many games when my friends and I were still learning the game.
As an aside - I remembered something that my best friend once said about my deck. He called it a PERMISSION deck. Even though it's :symr:/:symw: it plays like permission. They knew that I'd kill artifacts and enchantments with great fervor and any key creature they put out would be eliminated from the board as soon as they laid it down.
It's not as effective as blue counterspells by any means but white has those great control cards and red direct damage solves lots of problems that blue struggles to answer.
Which is not to say that this deck would be anything special in the present day of course. It was good enough for it's time.
Figure of Destiny is AWESOME! That is exactly the kind of creature I like! Scalability! GREAT! REP!
If you have the last post in a thread, please use the edit button. Do not make multiple posts. Also please use card tags -Urweak
As of Classic: 6th edition.
These are the major rulings updates that have happened since you've been gone, you can ask for clarification or help about the rules or interactions you don't understand in the Magic Rulings forum.
Along with that there have also been several design shifts since you've been gone. The Color Pie has changed over the years, many abilities are in different colors now, although outliers still exist. Many more abilities have also been keyworded now.
Two additional types were added to the game, Planeswalkers, and Tribal. Planeswalkers have their own set of rules which you can read about at: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/planeswalkers/week4
The last change in design is that creatures have been steadily increasing in power. WoTC felt creatures were too weak, and began increasing their power around the Alara block.
Now on to specific feedback
The last bit is pretty much the state of things. Non-Tribal Creatures are generally too large to die to Bolt. Swords to plowshares is a format staple in both Eternal formats. Bolt will still get rid of utility creatures, but most creatures are pretty beefy. You'd Need Swords to Plowshares to survive against a Blightsteel Colossus cheated in with Oath of Druids
Ingot Chewer is played for it's evoke cost, not it's actual casting cost, it would almost never be hardcast. And Although I can understand your sentimental reasons for Serra Angel, unfortunately stuff like Baneslayer Angel really pushed the power curve for creatures.
As an aside, If your not super attached to running power and the like, you can also look into the Legacy format. It was formerly Type 1.5, but its banned list was split from Type 1's back in 2004, and is now the most played eternal format.
Oh, I didn't mean for you not to run Bolts. The deck I refered to was mono-white so it couldn't use burn. Don't worry, Lightning Bolt is still one of the best red spells around. It hits tons of creatures in Legacy and Vintage. But Swords are definitely something you could consider in addition, perhaps replacing Earthquake or Incinerate.
Well Goblin Welder is a nice little creature - I like that one.
My wife helped me find a small pile of old cards and some newer ones that I guess I must have bought at some point. They look like ninth edition and Saviors of Kamigawa? It's strange seeing these because most of my most treasured cards are still missing but I do have a few gems mixed in like my revised Regrowth and Demonic Tutor.
Then there's a foil Serra Angel. I don't even care if it's not the coolest white creature any more. I'm gonna spend some time looking through these - see if I have some treasures.
I didn't know whether it would be better to create a new thread or to bump this one. I've revised my plans and I would like new feedback. Unfortunately I did not know if the thread would be marked unread for other users if I used the edit function so I opted to create a new post.
Concept - slow burn.
When you face this deck you should expect to play under the constraints of Winter Orb. The Winter Orb will hardly affect this deck at all. The highest cost of any spell is CMC 3 and most of them are 2 or 1. Including Winter Orb, Wasteland and Strip Mine there are a number of different cards that encourage your opponent to lay down lands - especially Path to Exile. This plays together well with Land Tax and Scroll Rack which is a well known combination.
I'd like to stress that I do not expect this deck to be powerful in a tournament setting. I think it will do pretty well in kitchen table magic and I'd love to hear opinions on this revised construction.
Opening -
76% of the time you're going to get a first turn creature in your opening draw. There is land destruction and cheap creature control enough to try to get a few hits on your opponent. When they're not available for those purposes they can still be combined with a Lightning Bolt for creature control up to 5 toughness. There is an 85% chance that you'll have a 1 or 2 CMC creature control spell in your opening draw.
Ideally you'll get a Winter Orb and a Land Tax. Zuran Orb and the Moxen are appreciated.
If you get the Winter Orb down then you can afford to do nothing but draw a card on some turns. I thought about using Black Vise but I figure that it would be too easy for my opponent to stay out of the damage in this format. Thought about using Ivory Tower as well but figured Zuran Orb had better synergy with Land Tax. Winter Orb is there primarily to punish opponents for casting stuff that costs more than CMC 4 or so. It's also a way to say "screw you" to permission and control decks. Mishra's Factory is in there for a similar reason. Grim Lavamancer recycles the discarded lands and instants for extra direct damage.
With Zuran Orb and Lightning Helix in play Earthquake becomes a fair choice for weenie control and delivering the finishing blow. Land's Edge is in there because I'm feeling frivolous.
Balance is usually an "I win" card for this deck and Wheel of Fortune is of course a very powerful draw.
Thoughts?
6 Plains
6 Mountain
4 Plateau
1 Strip Mine
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wastelands
Creature
4 Isamaru Hound of the Konda
2 Grim Lavamancer
Artifact
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
4 Winter Orb
2 Scroll Rack
3 Zuran Orb
1 Balance
4 Land Tax
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Earthquake
4 Lightning Helix
1 Land's Edge
4 Path to Exile
4 Disenchant
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Chain Lightning
4 Red Elemental Blast
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Stony Silence
Lodestone Golem
Grafdigger's Cage