It seems like you had trouble resolving Leyline hate against GAT, Unmask is really helpful there busting through a counter wall. Do you have many grave oriented decks in your metagame? If not I would just cut Leylines for Unmask.
You can't cut Leylines. Not only is it amazing against soooo many Vintage decks, it also protects your Bridges.
You can't cut Leylines. Not only is it amazing against soooo many Vintage decks, it also protects your Bridges.
The problem is Leyline really isn't that amazing. Since I last posted it has gotten better because of the comeback Stax, but for your average metagame I still wouldn't run it. You Leyline is only effective against Stax, Flash or the mirror. The mirror and Flash are seeing almost zero play, so it's not worth running because of them.
For any normal deck Leyline would be decent against Stax because it stops Crucible and Goblin Welder. Ichorid isn't a normal deck thoughThe only things it cares about from Stax is post board graveyard hate(Usually Leyline) and a single Wasteland on Bazaar. Leyline does nothing to stop either of these threats, while Unmask can remove counters to clear the way for Reverent Silence or even remove the hate pieces themselves.
Protecting Bridge really isn't a valid reason to run Leyline because of Ichorid's speed. Even if they manage to remove some or all of the Bridges you still win with Ichorid, Narcomoeba or Dread Return. Removing bridges might slow you down a turn at most but it won't be enough time for your opponent to recover. Bridge hate is also seeing less and less play because people are not concerned about Ichorid and because they have realized it is not the best way to beat the deck.
Ya, I'm still playing this deck (I have all the necessary cards). I was hoping Ichorid would win some tournies by now. Even that R/G deck that fluked it's way to first is getting more love.
I don't think that salvation thread length is an accurate measure of refinement or power. Particularly here, threads often regress, so it isn't neccessarilly the most accurate measure.
That being said the deck is powerful and refined.
That being said, the deck is also going to run an uphill battle the whole way, particularly at a larger tournament.
You will win game 1 usually. The problem is that games 2/3 are extremely difficult. Granted you have hate, but they usually have more and hate hate for your hate. Typically decks will be packing some combination of anywhere from 5-8 cards in the board that will attack your deck, and usually these vary in the types of hate they require. For instance, you will be fighting against, typically, a combination of needles, jailers, up to 7 leylines, crypts, and ee. They also have counters or stax componants to back them up, and will be applying preasure. With the advents of stax particularly you are going to have a problem, as spheres really screw with you, in addition to "normal" hate.
sidewinder74 please post card names with tags so people can easily findout what Ground Seal does. I just don't think that card is practical for Manaless Ichorid decks, maybe if it costed 1 green mana.
First of all, seal would require a restructuring of the deck to be able to actually make 2 mana (it typically is incapable of doing this). Secondly, it is bad without mana, which you don't want or need. You want to be mulling into bazaar, not mana. Furthermore, seal stops exactly 0 grave hate spells that are actually played. Things that ichorid needs to get rid of are leyline, jailer, crypt, and needle. Seal stops none of those.
Even if it cost one mana I'm not sure I'd want it. You need to cram as many enchantment/artifact/creature hate as possible, and things like silence, grudge, contagion, they just do everything better against hate, and for far less mana, which you don't want to have to play.
I just got the majority of the components for this deck together and I have to say, I love it more than my GAT deck. It's easy to play, and it's just so damn fun.
What way does this have to combat stax? Also is a turn 1 LD on the Bazzar GG? I've started to gather the cards to playtest this and both of these seem like trouble. Stax is heavy in my meta and i can't see getting around a turn 1 sphere.
Stax is heavy in my meta and i can't see getting around a turn 1 sphere.
Right, because that makes everything cost 3 to play from your hand. Good thing you're bringing stuff back from the yard. You beat down with ichorids and zombies and use less of the Dread Return.
I would like to see an updated list too, I'm still running the Sutured Ghoul beatdown.
What the hell does it need to combat stax? You don't play spells...
You activate it in response, and put a dredger or two in your yard... You're set.
The problem I was seeing playing against stax was casting a dread return. the spheres still add 1 even to the alternate cost. Beating with ichorid and bridge tokens makes sense though. Thanks for you imput, it was helpful.[/quote]
4 bazhaar of baghdad
4 chalice of the void
4 leyline of the void
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 bridge from below
4 narcomoeba
4 ichorid
4 unmask
4 cabal therapy
3 dread return
2 cephalid sage
flamekin zealot
4 serum powder
4 city of brass
2 petrified field
board:
4 gemstone mine
2 ray of revelation
3 emerald charm
3 chain of vapor
3 darkblast
this sideboard is for a heavy control/shop w/welder meta
use your own sideboard if you think there might be something else at your metagame, such as more gat, where you should use contagion instead of darkblast. If you expect jailers galore you should cut darkblast altogether...maybe and side in 4 contagions. those kill both jailer and welders. Welders hurt ichorid in many ways...mainly by removing bridges, but also by allowing dirty dirty recursion of crypt. Shop also runs like 9 sphere effects sometimes. That means you have to have the mana to bounce the spheres. I have seen an ichorid user using ingot chewer and shattering spree...but alas he failed in the long run. Ichorid is not good to run in a shop heavy/sphere heavy environment. Game one is all you but you need too much luck to get past all their sphere effects. You could use oxidize or crumble if you're a budget gamer but multiple sphere effects on turn one follwoed by land destruction turn two means good game ichorid. Play ichorid in a gat/gush/random meta an dreap the rewards. they usually board leylines/jailers...you have to watch out on pithing needle though...thats rough unless you rip chain. Some decks like deeznauts and bomberman run needle main >.< holy crap that is beast. You will usually be on turn 2-3 before it comes online though so it's all good. I have, however seen deeznauts rip land, mox,mox trinket mage for lotus, boband needle on turn one on bazhaar cuz they scouted...basids. rough case...gotta get past needle and beats for 4 up turn one. Good luck on that one chief ;~(
Good luck to all the ichorid players out there. People love to hate out ichorid but a pro player can dance around hate like it's ol'pops with the wooden ladel :> Dance *****es!
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[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]Two roads diverged in a yellow wood and I--[/FONT]
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]I took the one less traveled by,[/FONT]
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]and that has made all the difference.[/FONT]
4 bazhaar of baghdad
this sideboard is for a heavy control/shop w/welder meta
use your own sideboard if you think there might be something else at your metagame, such as more gat, where you should use contagion instead of darkblast. If you expect jailers galore you should cut darkblast altogether...maybe and side in 4 contagions. those kill both jailer and welders. Welders hurt ichorid in many ways...mainly by removing bridges, but also by allowing dirty dirty recursion of crypt. Shop also runs like 9 sphere effects sometimes. That means you have to have the mana to bounce the spheres. I have seen an ichorid user using ingot chewer and shattering spree...but alas he failed in the long run. Ichorid is not good to run in a shop heavy/sphere heavy environment. Game one is all you but you need too much luck to get past all their sphere effects. You could use oxidize or crumble if you're a budget gamer but multiple sphere effects on turn one follwoed by land destruction turn two means good game ichorid. Play ichorid in a gat/gush/random meta an dreap the rewards. they usually board leylines/jailers...you have to watch out on pithing needle though...thats rough unless you rip chain. Some decks like deeznauts and bomberman run needle main >.< holy crap that is beast. You will usually be on turn 2-3 before it comes online though so it's all good. I have, however seen deeznauts rip land, mox,mox trinket mage for lotus, boband needle on turn one on bazhaar cuz they scouted...basids. rough case...gotta get past needle and beats for 4 up turn one. Good luck on that one chief ;~(
Good luck to all the ichorid players out there. People love to hate out ichorid but a pro player can dance around hate like it's ol'pops with the wooden ladel :> Dance *****es!
Huh? Bazaar's ability is an activated ability, but not a mana ability, therefore you can play Pithing Needle naming Bazaar of Baghdad. It is a legal play.
Edit: I just clicked on the deck tag for the Bazaar. It states that the card is banned in Vintage...wtf??
Oh? I see. I remembered how Needle worked incorrectly then. I'm so used to "Name a nonland-card"
You play cephalid sage on the second turn when you don't have enough Bridge from Below to pull the win off. Dredging for up to eighteen additional cards almost always gets you into a position to win on the second turn. Whereas dredging up a turn 2 flamekin zealot when you have 1-0 bridges forces you to try again on the next turn.
Such a deck exists and is called mana ichorid (quite clever ;)) The biggest bonus is being able to run chain of vapor as it deals with almost any threat to the deck.
My question is, how can I get all of these to work for me? There's five different anti-hate cards there, and 4x of each nets me 20. What do I cut? I can probably lose one contagion and an oxidize or two, but that would probably leave me vulnerable to Stax, which is awful to lose to. Let me know what you think, or if I've missed anything.
hi i am literally brand new to vintage, i've been playing magic (standard and extended) for about 5 years though, i have made this deck but with a few changes, i dont really understand most of the sideboard (besides the obvious hate cards) but this is my list right now, but i would appreciate any advice on mainboard, and i defenitly need help on the sideboard i have no clue lol. thank you all in advanced.
That list is very solid, a bit heavy on the dread return targets, and I would advise looking into diversification (mostly I would add an Angel of Despair to deal with random shenanigans), and you could probably cut a cephalid and/or zealot strait up, which, if you axe both, gives you an extra slot to play with.
As for sideboarding, you want to find general answer cards for hate that will ineveitably be directed at you, although the actual composition is very meta dependent. For instance, if you face a lot of boarded leylines, you're going to want to run reverent silence or emerald charm. A lot of needles, something like oxidize or ancient grudge perhaps. A lot of jailer, contagions and like effefcts. You also should memorize boarding plans ahead of time, which will save you time and effort durring the tourament (boarding being the most difficult thing ichorid has to do).
On another note, I would like to bring up that Manaed Ichorid has been doing well recently:
It runs very much the same, but it seems to operate about a turn/half a turn faster and is more resilient to specific hate. In exchange, it is more difficult to play, and as such rewards playskill more.
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It takes less slots and has less dead cards all the while accomplishing the same task.
You can't cut Leylines. Not only is it amazing against soooo many Vintage decks, it also protects your Bridges.
The problem is Leyline really isn't that amazing. Since I last posted it has gotten better because of the comeback Stax, but for your average metagame I still wouldn't run it. You Leyline is only effective against Stax, Flash or the mirror. The mirror and Flash are seeing almost zero play, so it's not worth running because of them.
For any normal deck Leyline would be decent against Stax because it stops Crucible and Goblin Welder. Ichorid isn't a normal deck thoughThe only things it cares about from Stax is post board graveyard hate(Usually Leyline) and a single Wasteland on Bazaar. Leyline does nothing to stop either of these threats, while Unmask can remove counters to clear the way for Reverent Silence or even remove the hate pieces themselves.
Protecting Bridge really isn't a valid reason to run Leyline because of Ichorid's speed. Even if they manage to remove some or all of the Bridges you still win with Ichorid, Narcomoeba or Dread Return. Removing bridges might slow you down a turn at most but it won't be enough time for your opponent to recover. Bridge hate is also seeing less and less play because people are not concerned about Ichorid and because they have realized it is not the best way to beat the deck.
That being said the deck is powerful and refined.
That being said, the deck is also going to run an uphill battle the whole way, particularly at a larger tournament.
You will win game 1 usually. The problem is that games 2/3 are extremely difficult. Granted you have hate, but they usually have more and hate hate for your hate. Typically decks will be packing some combination of anywhere from 5-8 cards in the board that will attack your deck, and usually these vary in the types of hate they require. For instance, you will be fighting against, typically, a combination of needles, jailers, up to 7 leylines, crypts, and ee. They also have counters or stax componants to back them up, and will be applying preasure. With the advents of stax particularly you are going to have a problem, as spheres really screw with you, in addition to "normal" hate.
splashing green for ground seal? With all the anti-graveyard hate out there, why not?
First of all, seal would require a restructuring of the deck to be able to actually make 2 mana (it typically is incapable of doing this). Secondly, it is bad without mana, which you don't want or need. You want to be mulling into bazaar, not mana. Furthermore, seal stops exactly 0 grave hate spells that are actually played. Things that ichorid needs to get rid of are leyline, jailer, crypt, and needle. Seal stops none of those.
Even if it cost one mana I'm not sure I'd want it. You need to cram as many enchantment/artifact/creature hate as possible, and things like silence, grudge, contagion, they just do everything better against hate, and for far less mana, which you don't want to have to play.
I'll be keeping up with this thread from now on.
Thanks to Alacar Leoricar for the awsome banner!
Great Quotes
"Luck is statistics taken personally." - X DarkAngel X
You activate it in response, and put a dredger or two in your yard... You're set.
Right, because that makes everything cost 3 to play from your hand. Good thing you're bringing stuff back from the yard. You beat down with ichorids and zombies and use less of the Dread Return.
I would like to see an updated list too, I'm still running the Sutured Ghoul beatdown.
The problem I was seeing playing against stax was casting a dread return. the spheres still add 1 even to the alternate cost. Beating with ichorid and bridge tokens makes sense though. Thanks for you imput, it was helpful.[/quote]
Thanks to Alacar Leoricar for the awsome banner!
Great Quotes
"Luck is statistics taken personally." - X DarkAngel X
4 chalice of the void
4 leyline of the void
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 bridge from below
4 narcomoeba
4 ichorid
4 unmask
4 cabal therapy
3 dread return
2 cephalid sage
flamekin zealot
4 serum powder
4 city of brass
2 petrified field
board:
4 gemstone mine
2 ray of revelation
3 emerald charm
3 chain of vapor
3 darkblast
this sideboard is for a heavy control/shop w/welder meta
use your own sideboard if you think there might be something else at your metagame, such as more gat, where you should use contagion instead of darkblast. If you expect jailers galore you should cut darkblast altogether...maybe and side in 4 contagions. those kill both jailer and welders. Welders hurt ichorid in many ways...mainly by removing bridges, but also by allowing dirty dirty recursion of crypt. Shop also runs like 9 sphere effects sometimes. That means you have to have the mana to bounce the spheres. I have seen an ichorid user using ingot chewer and shattering spree...but alas he failed in the long run. Ichorid is not good to run in a shop heavy/sphere heavy environment. Game one is all you but you need too much luck to get past all their sphere effects. You could use oxidize or crumble if you're a budget gamer but multiple sphere effects on turn one follwoed by land destruction turn two means good game ichorid. Play ichorid in a gat/gush/random meta an dreap the rewards. they usually board leylines/jailers...you have to watch out on pithing needle though...thats rough unless you rip chain. Some decks like deeznauts and bomberman run needle main >.< holy crap that is beast. You will usually be on turn 2-3 before it comes online though so it's all good. I have, however seen deeznauts rip land, mox,mox trinket mage for lotus, boband needle on turn one on bazhaar cuz they scouted...basids. rough case...gotta get past needle and beats for 4 up turn one. Good luck on that one chief ;~(
Good luck to all the ichorid players out there. People love to hate out ichorid but a pro player can dance around hate like it's ol'pops with the wooden ladel :> Dance *****es!
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]I took the one less traveled by,[/FONT]
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]and that has made all the difference.[/FONT]
You can't Needle on Bazaar.
Trade binder.
Why not?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Oh? I see. I remembered how Needle worked incorrectly then. I'm so used to "Name a nonland-card"
Trade binder.
Something more like the Extended decks, but with fetches and Bayous and Crop Rotation, perhaps. Or blue-green, so as to run Breakthrough and the like.
For Mogg Fanatic, Offalsnout, etc:
Leyline of the Void
For Yixlid Jailer:
Contagion
For Pithing Needle and Leyline of the Void:
Dryad Arbor combined with:
Reverent Silence (Manaless way of dealing with Leyline)
Oxidize (Only thing I can think of to get rid of Needle...)
My question is, how can I get all of these to work for me? There's five different anti-hate cards there, and 4x of each nets me 20. What do I cut? I can probably lose one contagion and an oxidize or two, but that would probably leave me vulnerable to Stax, which is awful to lose to. Let me know what you think, or if I've missed anything.
Mainboard 1 Dryad Arbor and 4 Leyline of the Void then build a sideboard like this
3 x Dryad Arbor
4 x Contagion
4 x Reverant Silence
4 x Oxidize or Ancient Grudge
3 Contagion
3 Reverent Silence
3 Oxidize
3 Unmask
Should potentially take care of Jailer, opposing Leylines, Pithing Needles, and anything else that I can't take care of via Unmask
Is it overkill?
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Thug
3 Cephalid Sage
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Dryad Arbor
As for sideboarding, you want to find general answer cards for hate that will ineveitably be directed at you, although the actual composition is very meta dependent. For instance, if you face a lot of boarded leylines, you're going to want to run reverent silence or emerald charm. A lot of needles, something like oxidize or ancient grudge perhaps. A lot of jailer, contagions and like effefcts. You also should memorize boarding plans ahead of time, which will save you time and effort durring the tourament (boarding being the most difficult thing ichorid has to do).
On another note, I would like to bring up that Manaed Ichorid has been doing well recently:
1 Underground Sea
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Angel of Despair
1 Cephalid Sage
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Breakthrough
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
It runs very much the same, but it seems to operate about a turn/half a turn faster and is more resilient to specific hate. In exchange, it is more difficult to play, and as such rewards playskill more.