This looks interesting, but is it better than versions using breakthrough to dump the hand? One mana to get the whole deck going full steam ahead MIGHT work more often than Bazaar, which will get hated when possible. Not sure, but I'll give it some tries on MWS.
I certainly don't see how this can handle vintage, unless it trumps certain 'top' decks, but I ran into way too many strip mine effects to use this effectively. Decent idea, but it didn't work for me.
This deck has been extremely good recently and prompted more than 50% of the field at the Mana Drain Open to run Leyline of the Void on the sideboard. The deck wins with a turn 3 clock consistently in game one and then sideboards in to handle hate.
If you're losing to Strip effects then you aren't making proper use of Petrified Field and Gigapede. There's a new version of this deck that Stephen Menendian showcased on SCG that includes a small amount of mana such as Black Lotus and a sideboard with Rainbow Lands and Chain of Vapor.
Here's a quick primer:
Turn 1 - Bazaar of Baghdad, Activate, Discard at least 1 Dredger.
Turn 2 - Begin dredging your entrie deck off of Bazaar activations.
Turn 3 - Return any combination of 3 Ichorids/Nether Shadows into play, Flashback Dread Return targetting Sutured Ghoul, attach Dragon Breath to Sutured Ghoul and RFG enough creatures to give the ghoul 20+ power. Attack and win.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
You use it as an "if all else fails", to get the three creatures to sacrifice to dread return, basically you can return it using Petrified field it animates itself and then you resurect the Sutured ghoul.
This is wrong. The reasoning that meadbert and I had for originally puting Mishra's Factory in the deck was that you could play it on turn 2 and use it to play a turn 2 cabal therapy. The deck has a very powerful opening turn with Bazaar of Baghdad, and it has an explosive 3rd and 4th turn on which it wins the game, but turn 2 is completely devoid of any action. This is solved by the Strip Mine and the Mishra's Factory.
Mishra's Factory and Maze of Ith compete for the final spot in the deck. Basically if you're metagame has a lot of combo players, run Mishra's Factory. If your meta has a lot of DSC or general Aggro, run Maze of Ith.
So whats the plan vs Extirpate starting one month from now?
If there are any vintage tournaments between now and Planar Chaos's legality, I will bring Ichorid to give it one last hurrah.
So whats the plan vs Extirpate starting one month from now?
If there are any vintage tournaments between now and Planar Chaos's legality, I will bring Ichorid to give it one last hurrah.
Splash W for meddling mage.
;_;
i wish I were kidding...
That or add redundancy to the deck by cutting the numbers of key cards to 2-3x and using the remaining slots for other key cards that do similar things but don't share a name, or work in a slightly different way.
Obv, not to the point you're playing a highlander deck, but so that you have plenty of thematic consistency without getting raped for 4 cards every time someone drops an Extirpate.
other than that, what do you really have? Ground seal? Pre-emptive Gaea's Blessing? wish stuff back?
So whats the plan vs Extirpate starting one month from now?
If there are any vintage tournaments between now and Planar Chaos's legality, I will bring Ichorid to give it one last hurrah.
My plan is to switch from the traditional Manaless version into Smmennen's new mana version so that I can maindeck Duress and Extirpate of my own.
The mana version runs a lot of disruption including 4x Unmask, 2x Duress, 4x CotV. With mana in the deck you can play CotV at X=1, or you can open with Unmask/Duress to get rid of Extirpate.
The card that is going to be most vulnerable to Extirpate is Dread Return. This gives me the impression that Extirpate could mean the end of the Sutured Ghoul combo, but not the entire deck. The Dread Return combo can be replaced by mana and/or disruption and/or more beatdown.
The deck will simply evolve past Extirpate, a lot of Vintage decks are going to have to do so, not just Ichorid. I think Extirpate's biggest threat to the format is going to be Mana Draining your opponent's first Oath of Druids and then removing all copies of it from the game. That pretty much shuts down an Oath deck (but then again Jester's Cap could do something similar and maybe they'll just start playing with Golden Wish and/or Death Wish).
Worldgorger Dragon Combo decks also are hit much heavier by Extirpate than Ichorid is, but also should still fear Leyline of the Void much more.
Like I said, the format will adapt and the decks will evolve or die. I think Ichorid and Oath will have to evolve. I think WGD may die to this card.
So whats the plan vs Extirpate starting one month from now?
.
The plan is to rejoice, because if they are playing Extirpate that probably means that they won't have room for something much more powerful vs Ichorid - Leyline.
Extirpate on Ichorid also becomes a weaker play if the Ichorid deck plays creatures other than just Shadows and Ichorids. You can add Ashen Ghouls, Putrid Imps, or Factories to the list of creatures that can either beat down, or be sacrificed to Dread Return. Furthermore, with Unmask and Therapy (or Duress) you have a shot at removing those Extirpates from their hand, something that Leyline is invulnerable to (or Crypt on the play).
Smmenen's mana version is probably the weakest option vs Extirpate - it doesn't run alternate beatdown strategies, which is arguably much stronger than maindecking a few Duresses and running some answers in the SB.
my question is, is there any half probable way of getting through a turn 0 leyline of the void. cause that card sucks for this deck
That might not be a critical question to address. Apart from being good against decks like Ichorid (and WGD, which sees almost no play), Leyline is generally inferior to Tormod's Crypt - the leyline numbers went up in Waterbury after Ichorid received much hype, but that trend might reverse itself quite rapidly. Because of that, Leyline might not be a card Ichorid will see often.
If it does encounter leyline, Ichorid has outs, but they're not very good. Your best bet is to run 4-9 5C mana sources and run somewhere between 4-8 CoV and/or Emerald Charm. There was some suggestion of trying a transformational SB, such as Mask + Dreadnaught, but that just doesn't feel like a strategy that will have much success.
Future Sight gives both styles of Ichorid two new goodies: Street Wraith and Narcomoeba. What would come out for these, especially from Smennen's recent list?
Future Sight gives both styles of Ichorid two new goodies: Street Wraith and Narcomoeba. What would come out for these, especially from Smennen's recent list?
In the Nether Shadow slot, I'm testing 2 Sundering Titan and 1 Petradon. With the third Dread Return, you can easily have the game won by turn 2 with either of these. This deck is insane. I'm contemplating switching to this deck instead of Gifts, which I have been playing for nearly a year now. This deck is a refreshing change and is rather fun to play.
In the Nether Shadow slot, I'm testing 2 Sundering Titan and 1 Petradon. With the third Dread Return, you can easily have the game won by turn 2 with either of these. This deck is insane. I'm contemplating switching to this deck instead of Gifts, which I have been playing for nearly a year now. This deck is a refreshing change and is rather fun to play.
This build seems consistant and with the bridges I can win on the third/fourth turn even without the sutured ghoul combo. How would the build with petradon win on the second turn?
Petradon and other creatures such as Cephilad Sage have several advantages over Sutured Ghoul. Ghoul requires you to have Dragon Breath and a bunch of other guys in your graveyard while Sage and Petradon are great just by themselves. Currently I am running 3 Cephilad Sage and 1 Flame Kin Zealot as my win conditions.
@joande, I would try to get 4 Street Wraith in there, probably cutting Nether Shadow. Street Wraith decreases your reliance on Bazaar, thins your deck and is a black creature which makes him incredible in Ichorid.
If it can work in the graveyard a playset gives you about a 200% chance of getting to use it. If it's only good in your opening hand it will only help less then 20% of the time. Street Wraith offers a marginal advantage.
Street Wraith is good because you already have more then enough dredge affects and Ichorid type creatures. What the deck needs is a way to rely less on Bazaar and speed up its clock, Street Wraith serves this purpose like Urza's Bauble in older builds.
Sage and Flame Kin Zealot, take up less slots then Sutured Ghoul and are equally fast. Ghoul is only strong with a huge graveyard and Dragon Breath while Sage is self sufficient. You can chain several Sages and Dread Returns together in one turn to win quickly. I look at Ghoul like a win more, if you can Dread Return Ghoul you have probably already won, while Dread returning Sage wins in a favorable game state and less favorable ones as well.
Sage and Flame Kin are significantly better than Ghoul. Ghoul requires you to have destroyed your deck, and is very vulnerable. Sage is good at any point in the game, and really accelerates the kill by a full turn, and zealot, with bridges, does the same thing as ghoul but with a ton less cards and much more stabily.
I have been expirimenting with other options for reanimation as well. I think Stalking Vengance may have some merit since it plays into the win very well, and instant wins with Troll and Therapy.
Play with 4 Wraiths. Wraiths are very strong. First, they are black creatures to feed ichorid. Second, they act as free pseudo-mulligans. They allow for free dredges, and augment and compliment bazaar nicely.
Turn 2 wins are easy enough, picture this:
First turn bazaar, discard a troll and some other stuff. Upkeep, dredge troll, dredege another troll/imp, put a narc or two into play, have 2 or so bridges in play. Draw, dredge troll again. Sac narc to therapy, make some token, dread up a sage, dredge for like 15ish or w/e, sac narc/sage/token, dread zealot, attack for a **** load. That isn't even uncommon, and comes in tons of variations, many of which are heavily protected.
So in that scenario you have to get off two dread returns instead of just one. and sutured ghoul requires just 6 cards unless you running just one zealot and two cephalid that is NOT less cards in fact to be reliable you would need more then two dread returns.
4 x Dread Return
2 x Cephalid Sage
2 x Flame Kin Zealot
Since you need 2 dread returns
2 x Sutured Ghoul
2 x Dragons Breath
2 x Dread Return
Please correct me if I'm wrong....and how does the deck with petradon win on turn 2?
I was just giving an example. IT does not require 2 Dread returns, it just requires one. It does not require 2 Zealots. Personally, I only run 1. 3 Sages are nice, but thats because you don't have to return them.
Heres an example of a turn 2 win with only one dread return and one zealot:
Turn 1: Bazaar, discard Troll, Imp, Ichorid. Cycle Wraith, dredge troll, put narc and bridge into play. Second turn, upkeep, Ichorid on stack, dredge 11, put 2nd narc into play, put 2nd bridge into yard. Return Ichorid off wraith. Draw=Troll, 1st main sac 2 narcs and ichorid to dread return, put 6 zombies into play, bring back zealot, swing for 21.
And once again, that is just one of many such examples. The deck is consistant enough and redundant enough that that KIND of thing happens often enough.
Furthermore, Sages are good regardless. Sometimes you can't just animate Ghoul because you don't have a large enough yard, never a problem with sage. Sage often can accelerate your win by a full turn, since it dumps anywhere from 15 to 18 cards in one blow. Zealot, on the other hand, facilitates a win very much the same way ghoul does, but with a much decreased neccessity for auxillary options such as breath.
As for Petradon/Titan, you don't have to win WITH petradon, in fact that isn't how you do the turn 2 win. However, petradon, like sage, requires no auxillary support, and slows your opponant down a full turn or two, giving you the time to go for the turn 3 win protected, etc. However, you are for the most right, you won't win with petradon turn 2.
Remember, you don't HAVE to animate the sages, but when you do, you have just put the rest of your deck in your yard, which gaurentees you will have that other return. Sage facilitates the win, it is not /the/ win. By the time Ghoul can win, Zealot usually can win, and it is much less demanding on deck space.
It is important to understand the following: Dread Returns are never dead. Dragon's Breath's are dead without ghoul AND return. Ghoul is dead without return AND breath AND the majority of your deck destroyed. Sage is only dead without breath. Zealot is dead without Bridge AND return. To this end, the Zealot strategy will usually involve cards that are dead less often, and turn online faster. This is because Bridge is never dead, unlike breath, essentially.
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4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Serum Powder
Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline Of The Void
Instants
1 Darkblast
Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Unmask
Lands
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
3 Petrified Field
4 City of Brass
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Whispermare
3 Contagion
4 Gemstone Mine
I certainly don't see how this can handle vintage, unless it trumps certain 'top' decks, but I ran into way too many strip mine effects to use this effectively. Decent idea, but it didn't work for me.
RON PAUL
R[ƎVO˩]UTION
The Philosophy of Liberty
If you're losing to Strip effects then you aren't making proper use of Petrified Field and Gigapede. There's a new version of this deck that Stephen Menendian showcased on SCG that includes a small amount of mana such as Black Lotus and a sideboard with Rainbow Lands and Chain of Vapor.
Here's a quick primer:
Turn 1 - Bazaar of Baghdad, Activate, Discard at least 1 Dredger.
Turn 2 - Begin dredging your entrie deck off of Bazaar activations.
Turn 3 - Return any combination of 3 Ichorids/Nether Shadows into play, Flashback Dread Return targetting Sutured Ghoul, attach Dragon Breath to Sutured Ghoul and RFG enough creatures to give the ghoul 20+ power. Attack and win.
** DigitalLogic on MTGO **
I don't get the mishra's factory... What prupose does it serve as a 1-of.
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This is wrong. The reasoning that meadbert and I had for originally puting Mishra's Factory in the deck was that you could play it on turn 2 and use it to play a turn 2 cabal therapy. The deck has a very powerful opening turn with Bazaar of Baghdad, and it has an explosive 3rd and 4th turn on which it wins the game, but turn 2 is completely devoid of any action. This is solved by the Strip Mine and the Mishra's Factory.
Mishra's Factory and Maze of Ith compete for the final spot in the deck. Basically if you're metagame has a lot of combo players, run Mishra's Factory. If your meta has a lot of DSC or general Aggro, run Maze of Ith.
** DigitalLogic on MTGO **
If there are any vintage tournaments between now and Planar Chaos's legality, I will bring Ichorid to give it one last hurrah.
unpopular ideas club
Splash W for meddling mage.
;_;
i wish I were kidding...
That or add redundancy to the deck by cutting the numbers of key cards to 2-3x and using the remaining slots for other key cards that do similar things but don't share a name, or work in a slightly different way.
Obv, not to the point you're playing a highlander deck, but so that you have plenty of thematic consistency without getting raped for 4 cards every time someone drops an Extirpate.
other than that, what do you really have? Ground seal? Pre-emptive Gaea's Blessing? wish stuff back?
My plan is to switch from the traditional Manaless version into Smmennen's new mana version so that I can maindeck Duress and Extirpate of my own.
The mana version runs a lot of disruption including 4x Unmask, 2x Duress, 4x CotV. With mana in the deck you can play CotV at X=1, or you can open with Unmask/Duress to get rid of Extirpate.
The card that is going to be most vulnerable to Extirpate is Dread Return. This gives me the impression that Extirpate could mean the end of the Sutured Ghoul combo, but not the entire deck. The Dread Return combo can be replaced by mana and/or disruption and/or more beatdown.
The deck will simply evolve past Extirpate, a lot of Vintage decks are going to have to do so, not just Ichorid. I think Extirpate's biggest threat to the format is going to be Mana Draining your opponent's first Oath of Druids and then removing all copies of it from the game. That pretty much shuts down an Oath deck (but then again Jester's Cap could do something similar and maybe they'll just start playing with Golden Wish and/or Death Wish).
Worldgorger Dragon Combo decks also are hit much heavier by Extirpate than Ichorid is, but also should still fear Leyline of the Void much more.
Like I said, the format will adapt and the decks will evolve or die. I think Ichorid and Oath will have to evolve. I think WGD may die to this card.
** DigitalLogic on MTGO **
The plan is to rejoice, because if they are playing Extirpate that probably means that they won't have room for something much more powerful vs Ichorid - Leyline.
Extirpate on Ichorid also becomes a weaker play if the Ichorid deck plays creatures other than just Shadows and Ichorids. You can add Ashen Ghouls, Putrid Imps, or Factories to the list of creatures that can either beat down, or be sacrificed to Dread Return. Furthermore, with Unmask and Therapy (or Duress) you have a shot at removing those Extirpates from their hand, something that Leyline is invulnerable to (or Crypt on the play).
Smmenen's mana version is probably the weakest option vs Extirpate - it doesn't run alternate beatdown strategies, which is arguably much stronger than maindecking a few Duresses and running some answers in the SB.
That might not be a critical question to address. Apart from being good against decks like Ichorid (and WGD, which sees almost no play), Leyline is generally inferior to Tormod's Crypt - the leyline numbers went up in Waterbury after Ichorid received much hype, but that trend might reverse itself quite rapidly. Because of that, Leyline might not be a card Ichorid will see often.
If it does encounter leyline, Ichorid has outs, but they're not very good. Your best bet is to run 4-9 5C mana sources and run somewhere between 4-8 CoV and/or Emerald Charm. There was some suggestion of trying a transformational SB, such as Mask + Dreadnaught, but that just doesn't feel like a strategy that will have much success.
Modern
Legacy
I play a lot of musical instruments in two bands: www.myspace.com/sufficientnowhere and www.myspace.com/motionoutlet. Check them out. Your ears will love you.
Dont forget about Bridge from Below
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
Creatures:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
2 Sundering Titan
1 Petradon
4 Bridge from Below
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Underground Sea
3 Underground River
In the Nether Shadow slot, I'm testing 2 Sundering Titan and 1 Petradon. With the third Dread Return, you can easily have the game won by turn 2 with either of these. This deck is insane. I'm contemplating switching to this deck instead of Gifts, which I have been playing for nearly a year now. This deck is a refreshing change and is rather fun to play.
-DShell
How do you get Bridge from Below into play?
btw theres 6 Cabal Therapys
4 x Ichorid
4 x Nether Shadow
4 x Stinkweed Imp
4 x Shambling Shell
4 x Golgari Grave Troll
4 x Golgari Thug
2 x Sutured Ghoul
4 x Serum Powder
4 x Bridge form Below
2 x Dragon's Breath
4 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Unmask
2 x Dread Return
1 x Strip Mine
1 x Wasteland
This build seems consistant and with the bridges I can win on the third/fourth turn even without the sutured ghoul combo. How would the build with petradon win on the second turn?
@joande, I would try to get 4 Street Wraith in there, probably cutting Nether Shadow. Street Wraith decreases your reliance on Bazaar, thins your deck and is a black creature which makes him incredible in Ichorid.
AND how does that build win on turn 2???
Sage and Flame Kin Zealot, take up less slots then Sutured Ghoul and are equally fast. Ghoul is only strong with a huge graveyard and Dragon Breath while Sage is self sufficient. You can chain several Sages and Dread Returns together in one turn to win quickly. I look at Ghoul like a win more, if you can Dread Return Ghoul you have probably already won, while Dread returning Sage wins in a favorable game state and less favorable ones as well.
I have been expirimenting with other options for reanimation as well. I think Stalking Vengance may have some merit since it plays into the win very well, and instant wins with Troll and Therapy.
Play with 4 Wraiths. Wraiths are very strong. First, they are black creatures to feed ichorid. Second, they act as free pseudo-mulligans. They allow for free dredges, and augment and compliment bazaar nicely.
Turn 2 wins are easy enough, picture this:
First turn bazaar, discard a troll and some other stuff. Upkeep, dredge troll, dredege another troll/imp, put a narc or two into play, have 2 or so bridges in play. Draw, dredge troll again. Sac narc to therapy, make some token, dread up a sage, dredge for like 15ish or w/e, sac narc/sage/token, dread zealot, attack for a **** load. That isn't even uncommon, and comes in tons of variations, many of which are heavily protected.
4 x Dread Return
2 x Cephalid Sage
2 x Flame Kin Zealot
Since you need 2 dread returns
2 x Sutured Ghoul
2 x Dragons Breath
2 x Dread Return
Please correct me if I'm wrong....and how does the deck with petradon win on turn 2?
Heres an example of a turn 2 win with only one dread return and one zealot:
Turn 1: Bazaar, discard Troll, Imp, Ichorid. Cycle Wraith, dredge troll, put narc and bridge into play. Second turn, upkeep, Ichorid on stack, dredge 11, put 2nd narc into play, put 2nd bridge into yard. Return Ichorid off wraith. Draw=Troll, 1st main sac 2 narcs and ichorid to dread return, put 6 zombies into play, bring back zealot, swing for 21.
And once again, that is just one of many such examples. The deck is consistant enough and redundant enough that that KIND of thing happens often enough.
Furthermore, Sages are good regardless. Sometimes you can't just animate Ghoul because you don't have a large enough yard, never a problem with sage. Sage often can accelerate your win by a full turn, since it dumps anywhere from 15 to 18 cards in one blow. Zealot, on the other hand, facilitates a win very much the same way ghoul does, but with a much decreased neccessity for auxillary options such as breath.
As for Petradon/Titan, you don't have to win WITH petradon, in fact that isn't how you do the turn 2 win. However, petradon, like sage, requires no auxillary support, and slows your opponant down a full turn or two, giving you the time to go for the turn 3 win protected, etc. However, you are for the most right, you won't win with petradon turn 2.
Remember, you don't HAVE to animate the sages, but when you do, you have just put the rest of your deck in your yard, which gaurentees you will have that other return. Sage facilitates the win, it is not /the/ win. By the time Ghoul can win, Zealot usually can win, and it is much less demanding on deck space.
It is important to understand the following: Dread Returns are never dead. Dragon's Breath's are dead without ghoul AND return. Ghoul is dead without return AND breath AND the majority of your deck destroyed. Sage is only dead without breath. Zealot is dead without Bridge AND return. To this end, the Zealot strategy will usually involve cards that are dead less often, and turn online faster. This is because Bridge is never dead, unlike breath, essentially.