Hi everyone, and thanks for letting me take part in your community. I've got a somewhat exspensive Zoo deck. It's strictly R/G and the win condition is ussually a Rorix by 3rd turn. I haven't begun to sideboard, but I would assume spells such as Red Elemental Blast, Null Rod, and Naturalize. Here's the deck as it stands. I have 2 more Rorixs coming in the mail.
PLANESWALKERS
Sarkhan Vol x 1
CREATURES
Kird Ape x 4
Orcish Lumberjack x 4
Tinder Wall x 4
Birds of Paradise x 4
Juggernaught x 4
Rorix Bladewing x 2 (2 more coming soon)
Shivan Dragon x 1
LANDS
Wooded Foothills x 1
Mountain Valley x 3
Rootbound Crag x 4
Taiga x 4
Stomping Grounds x 4
Strip Mine x 1 (Just for good measure)
ENCHANTMENTS
Rancor x 4
ARTIFACTS
Lotus Petal x 1
Mana Vault x 1
Darksteel Plate x 1
Sol Ring x 1
SPELLS
Fireball x 1
Wheel of Fortune x 1
Regrowth x 1
Lightning Bolt x 4
Chain Lightning x 4
A few obvious additions...
1) Black Lotus
2) Mox Emerald
3) Mox Ruby
4) Mana Crypt
5) 2 More Rorix Bladewings
And a couple interesting options...
1) Chrome Moxes
2) Tarmogoyf
3) Blastoderm
4) Burning-Tree Emmisary
The deck has a good curve and I want to keep it that way, but often I'm left with more mana than I know what todo with, an empty hand, and my big creatures picked off by Terrors and Swords to Plowshares.
I wonder if I could get away with 4 Dragonstorms by adding the Chrome Moxes. The problem is trying to hardcast a Dragonstorm without an Orcish Lumberjack in starting hand.
Another idea is to always draw first giving the mana curve a little more breathing room...
Let me know what you think.
I think you need some disruption. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere are pretty common for this kind of explosive out-of-the-gates beatdown deck.
Thundermaw Hellkite is likely a better wincon than Rorix. It kills just about as quickly, but comes down for one mana less and has some added gravy. Plus you can get multiples of them out pretty easily.
Juggernaut seems like a poor choice. Lodestone Golem gives you the same body and cost but with a nice bonus disruptive ability.
I dunno, this list looks really thrown-together.
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Yes, Thundermaw Hellkite is definitely an add. I'm still waiting on my 2 Rorix Bladewing, they got delivered to my neighbor. I'll pull some of the slower mana accelerators like the birds in favor of Hellkites and Rorix. Any ideas for "explosive" style artifacts? Darksteel Plate is nice to prevent creature removal spells.
Still wondering what the best Vintage way to keep creatures in the game is...keeping them from being bolted, plowshared, terrored, and countered. If someone has this answer I would be very happy to hear.
Still wondering what the best Vintage way to keep creatures in the game is...keeping them from being bolted, plowshared, terrored, and countered. If someone has this answer I would be very happy to hear.
In vintage, your creatures will be ignored. They will unlikely to be bolted, plowshared, terrored, and very unlikely countered unless its a game-winning creature (for example, emrakul or blightsteel colossus). Most of the time, your creature will likely be bounced, if its one of those huge "I win if this attacks even once" creatures. Once in a while someone will play balance.
Darksteel plate doesn't see play in vintage because it doesn't protect against bounce (or swords and balance for that matter).
i wonder if the OP has ever played a game of high level vintage? I feel like he's thinking as if the format's kind of like legacy or modern, but, from what I understand, it's pretty much a "turn 1" format dominated by one-shot combo, masses of mostly-free counterspells and degenerate things like factory and dredge. Lightning bolt certainly isn't a big threat for eg.
i wonder if the OP has ever played a game of high level vintage? I feel like he's thinking as if the format's kind of like legacy or modern, but, from what I understand, it's pretty much a "turn 1" format dominated by one-shot combo, masses of mostly-free counterspells and degenerate things like factory and dredge. Lightning bolt certainly isn't a big threat for eg.
If Vintage was just one turn games, how would Dredge be a playable deck much less a tier 1 deck?
Oath of Druids requires at least an additional turn.
Tempo style decks attempt to beat face.
Workshop attempts to lock the game, and a little while back used Slash Panther as their win condition, which is 5 turns or attacking.
If the format is just one turn, why is Jace, the Mind Sculptor worth playing? Is Brainstorm worth 2UU at sorcery speed?
I think this format is much slower than people think. The power level just assumes that the potential for an explosive start is there if left unchecked. Vintage turns should have far more decisions and interactions than a turn of a format with a smaller card pool.
Yes, inked, add a single lonely channel (per the restricted list), and fireball for good measure. And btw the decks I play against are mostly creature based. The idea is to win with the creatures around turn 6 or 7.
Then, let me rephrase the question. Barring counterspell, force of will, and daze what's the best way to keep creatures in play, after the creature is in play?
Hey man! Welome to the forums. It seems to me that you could do much better than this for a zoo-style deck in these colors on the same or lesser budget! It's clear that you're impressed byRorix Bladewing, and that's awesome. But I have difficulty believing the card would see competitive play even in Standard right now, and Shivan Dragon certainly would not. Now, some cards do see play in Vintage that would/do not get playtime in Standard, but that is often because of specific conditions that exist in Vintage but not Standard. Lodestone Golem saw little to no play in Standard but is a Vintage staple because of Mishra's Workshop. I don't think Rorix is such a card. If you want to play a R/G aggro deck, that's awesome. But focus on fast creatures like Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl, Goblin Guide, and even budget options like Flinthoof Boar if things like Tarmogoyf are inaccessible (which they are for a great majority of players.) Hope this helped!
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Here's what I'm thinking, it's going to take a few trades
PLANESWALKERS
Sarkhan Vol x 1
CREATURES
Orcish Lumberjack x 4
Tinder Wall x 4
Birds of Paradise x 4
Thundermaw Hellkite x 4
Rorix Bladewing x 4
LANDS
Wooded Foothills x 4
Rootbound Crag x 4
Taiga x 4
Stomping Grounds x 4
ENCHANTMENTS
Rancor x 4
ARTIFACTS
Chrome Mox x 4
Lotus Petal x 1
Mana Vault x 1
Mana Crypt x 1
Darksteel Plate x 1
Sol Ring x 1
SPELLS
Wheel of Fortune x 1
Regrowth x 1
Lightning Bolt x 4
Chain Lightning x 4
SIDEBOARD
Red Elemental Blast x 4
Pyroblast x 4
Null Rod x 4
Channel x 1
Fireball x 1
Strip Mine x 1 (Just for good measure)
Spells that pump dragons, or make creatures indestructable might help. I might work in 3 more darksteel plates. I've decided against Dragonstorm. And added a sideboard.
Maybe remove Sarkhan Vol, Darksteel Plate, 1 Chrome Mox, and Regrowth for Scullcalmps for card draw? And what to do with Sarkhan Vol, add more, remove?
While certainly a fun deck, I am not sure this is the right forum for what you want. It's certainly a budget deck that is Vintage, but to be honest it's not really a competitive deck in the environment at all.
When you say it can win on turn 6-7, that's way too slow. You can win on turn 6 or 7 in Vintage, but if you are doing it like that you need to be disrupting your opponent considerably more. Currently the only disruption I see is a single Strip Mine and possibly you could consider Lightning Bolt if your opponent happens to be playing creatures that are Bolt vulnerable.
Even with that said I don't think that adding disruption is going to help this deck at all, because it would only make it diffuse and slower.
Maybe a repost to casual?
My suggestion, keep the Kird Apes. To be more competitive you would want to move towards a G/R Zoo build, which might mean dropping the Dragons. With that said it's more fun to play with Dragons, but it's probably not going to win any tourneys.
PLANESWALKERS
Sarkhan Vol x 1
CREATURES
Kird Ape x 4
Orcish Lumberjack x 4
Tinder Wall x 4
Birds of Paradise x 4
Juggernaught x 4
Rorix Bladewing x 2 (2 more coming soon)
Shivan Dragon x 1
LANDS
Wooded Foothills x 1
Mountain Valley x 3
Rootbound Crag x 4
Taiga x 4
Stomping Grounds x 4
Strip Mine x 1 (Just for good measure)
ENCHANTMENTS
Rancor x 4
ARTIFACTS
Lotus Petal x 1
Mana Vault x 1
Darksteel Plate x 1
Sol Ring x 1
SPELLS
Fireball x 1
Wheel of Fortune x 1
Regrowth x 1
Lightning Bolt x 4
Chain Lightning x 4
A few obvious additions...
1) Black Lotus
2) Mox Emerald
3) Mox Ruby
4) Mana Crypt
5) 2 More Rorix Bladewings
And a couple interesting options...
1) Chrome Moxes
2) Tarmogoyf
3) Blastoderm
4) Burning-Tree Emmisary
The deck has a good curve and I want to keep it that way, but often I'm left with more mana than I know what todo with, an empty hand, and my big creatures picked off by Terrors and Swords to Plowshares.
Thanks, and thanks for having me on the forum.
RGVintage DragonsRG
GVintage ElvesG
UGModern BiomancerUG
WJareth HighlanderW
Another idea is to always draw first giving the mana curve a little more breathing room...
Let me know what you think.
RGVintage DragonsRG
GVintage ElvesG
UGModern BiomancerUG
WJareth HighlanderW
Thundermaw Hellkite is likely a better wincon than Rorix. It kills just about as quickly, but comes down for one mana less and has some added gravy. Plus you can get multiples of them out pretty easily.
Juggernaut seems like a poor choice. Lodestone Golem gives you the same body and cost but with a nice bonus disruptive ability.
I dunno, this list looks really thrown-together.
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RGVintage DragonsRG
GVintage ElvesG
UGModern BiomancerUG
WJareth HighlanderW
RGVintage DragonsRG
GVintage ElvesG
UGModern BiomancerUG
WJareth HighlanderW
Maybe Darksteel Plate?
RGVintage DragonsRG
GVintage ElvesG
UGModern BiomancerUG
WJareth HighlanderW
In vintage, your creatures will be ignored. They will unlikely to be bolted, plowshared, terrored, and very unlikely countered unless its a game-winning creature (for example, emrakul or blightsteel colossus). Most of the time, your creature will likely be bounced, if its one of those huge "I win if this attacks even once" creatures. Once in a while someone will play balance.
Darksteel plate doesn't see play in vintage because it doesn't protect against bounce (or swords and balance for that matter).
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
If Vintage was just one turn games, how would Dredge be a playable deck much less a tier 1 deck?
Oath of Druids requires at least an additional turn.
Tempo style decks attempt to beat face.
Workshop attempts to lock the game, and a little while back used Slash Panther as their win condition, which is 5 turns or attacking.
If the format is just one turn, why is Jace, the Mind Sculptor worth playing? Is Brainstorm worth 2UU at sorcery speed?
I think this format is much slower than people think. The power level just assumes that the potential for an explosive start is there if left unchecked. Vintage turns should have far more decisions and interactions than a turn of a format with a smaller card pool.
Then, let me rephrase the question. Barring counterspell, force of will, and daze what's the best way to keep creatures in play, after the creature is in play?
I'll post an updated decklist tomorrow.
RGVintage DragonsRG
GVintage ElvesG
UGModern BiomancerUG
WJareth HighlanderW
PLANESWALKERS
Sarkhan Vol x 1
CREATURES
Orcish Lumberjack x 4
Tinder Wall x 4
Birds of Paradise x 4
Thundermaw Hellkite x 4
Rorix Bladewing x 4
LANDS
Wooded Foothills x 4
Rootbound Crag x 4
Taiga x 4
Stomping Grounds x 4
ENCHANTMENTS
Rancor x 4
ARTIFACTS
Chrome Mox x 4
Lotus Petal x 1
Mana Vault x 1
Mana Crypt x 1
Darksteel Plate x 1
Sol Ring x 1
SPELLS
Wheel of Fortune x 1
Regrowth x 1
Lightning Bolt x 4
Chain Lightning x 4
SIDEBOARD
Red Elemental Blast x 4
Pyroblast x 4
Null Rod x 4
Channel x 1
Fireball x 1
Strip Mine x 1 (Just for good measure)
Spells that pump dragons, or make creatures indestructable might help. I might work in 3 more darksteel plates. I've decided against Dragonstorm. And added a sideboard.
RGVintage DragonsRG
GVintage ElvesG
UGModern BiomancerUG
WJareth HighlanderW
RGVintage DragonsRG
GVintage ElvesG
UGModern BiomancerUG
WJareth HighlanderW
When you say it can win on turn 6-7, that's way too slow. You can win on turn 6 or 7 in Vintage, but if you are doing it like that you need to be disrupting your opponent considerably more. Currently the only disruption I see is a single Strip Mine and possibly you could consider Lightning Bolt if your opponent happens to be playing creatures that are Bolt vulnerable.
Even with that said I don't think that adding disruption is going to help this deck at all, because it would only make it diffuse and slower.
Maybe a repost to casual?
My suggestion, keep the Kird Apes. To be more competitive you would want to move towards a G/R Zoo build, which might mean dropping the Dragons. With that said it's more fun to play with Dragons, but it's probably not going to win any tourneys.
End game, play to have fun.
RGVintage DragonsRG
GVintage ElvesG
UGModern BiomancerUG
WJareth HighlanderW