A friend of mine and I were discussing his plans to take a Mono-Red Burn deck to a Vintage Tournament.... He seriously thinks that in the new Vintage (post the new ban list) that Mono-Red Burn may actually be fast enough to hold its own in the format. I was wondering what everyone else thought of the issue. Of course there aren't really any particular creatures that are fast and efficient enough to participate in such a deck, so it would mainly be fast and efficient burn spells... but the deck would look something like the following:
Its the cleanest most efficient build I can think of for the format... but it may still be a little too slow in my opinion. What do you all think, and do you have any advice on making it faster for the format (like maybe adding lotus or moxes or something)?
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
In my experience, plain burn decks loses to "burn" decks (or sligh) with creatures. But if the purpose is to play against other decks than sligh, then the case might be different.
But to comment on the deck posted.
I wouldn't use 4x Chrome Mox in a deck that has no card drawing, and where all the gas you can manage to draw counts. Using your burnspells to make mana out if it isn't really helping your strategy of burning your opponent asap.
Also, instead of using "sub-par" burnspells. I'd rather have creatures like fanatic, jackal pup, t-maniac, kird ape, mox monkey etc.. in a meta like this, they will deal more dmg for you than a single burn spell.
The thing is that sligh isn't longer the fastest deck in town, and if you are going to pilot this type of deck, you have to realize that fact. You don't have the right tools to disrupt your enemy from comboing quickly on you.
You have to play this type of deck kind with a sort of control player mind-set. (if that makes sense)
You need cards that make your opponent slower at least to the point where you can keep up with their game. The one thing that this type of deck does good is that it keeps damage flowing constantly while at the same time it can disrupt mana-bases and has some answer to other strategies your opponent tries to pull out (for example: Pyrostatic Pillar vs Storm-Combo or Ankh of Mishra vs Gush.dec)
As a start I would suggest changing your manabase and add 4x Wasteland and 1x Strip mine and add 3 or 4 copies of Gorilla Shaman.
Splash green for Taiga (if you want) so that you can use Kird Ape and Goyf (the only 2drop creature you want) otherwise stick to the good 1 drops.
If your going to build a deck at least give yourself the best chance to win. A blue splash allows for allot of card advantage. I put in gorilla shaman over shattering spree because mox monkey can beat. Mogg Fanatic helps against dredge. Fork can copy a recall or brainstorm, or act as another burn spell if needed. Top and fetchlands and brainstorms help dift through unneeded mana sources.
If your going to build a deck at least give yourself the best chance to win. A blue splash allows for allot of card advantage. I put in gorilla shaman over shattering spree because mox monkey can beat. Mogg Fanatic helps against dredge. Fork can copy a recall or brainstorm, or act as another burn spell if needed. Top and fetchlands and brainstorms help dift through unneeded mana sources.
Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage. Magma Jet >>>>>>>>> Shard Volley. Smash to Smithereens seems like an auto-include.
If your going to build a deck at least give yourself the best chance to win. A blue splash allows for allot of card advantage. I put in gorilla shaman over shattering spree because mox monkey can beat. Mogg Fanatic helps against dredge. Fork can copy a recall or brainstorm, or act as another burn spell if needed. Top and fetchlands and brainstorms help dift through unneeded mana sources.
I am not sure about your mana base, but I do like much of the ideas you propose in the deck... though I think Smash to Smithereens might just be better than the Mox Monkey for purposes of Artifact disruption (due to the fact that it both destroys an artifact and does damage). I will be posting a modification to the deck you posted in a few minutes... one that is slightly more "Red" oriented....
I've played a bit of vintage burn in a powered, but not hugely developed meta. one thing I can say is that 8 auto includes in my deck were 4 black vise (huge on t1) and 4 howling mine. You don't really mind so much that they draw as many cards as you do, or even more, so long as you're drawing consistent amounts of threats. With these inclusions, you can play the control or the combo. I was also able to beat the crap out of netdeck tyrant oath and gush gro (I think the deck used to be called bird**** or miracle gro..can't remember exact name, but you get the idea). black vise and howling mine were mvps in both matches. I would have loved more than one price of progress maindeck, but every time I cast it, R1 for 6 to 8 damage was spectacular, since i wasn't running any nonbasics save fetches of my own. Other than that, the decklist can be quite good depending on the meta, and definitely listen to the advice concerning pyrostatic pillar. It's hard for combo to deal with if it resolves.
Magma Jet was spectacular, wheel of fortune also. Can't say I liked browbeat much..in playtesting, I took it out. Also, instead of pointing it all at the head in the first turn or two, don't be afraid to unload as much as possible in one turn (t3 or 4, usually) so they'll have a *MUCH* harder time countering. that was one trick I learned the hard way.
I seriously think Flamebreak would be a far better choice than Breaking point. If only because it doesn't give your opponent the choice of losing his creatures or taking 6 damage, instead it causes him to in all likelyhood lose alot of creatures and take 3 damage at the same time. In either situation breaking point and flamebreak cost the same mana price.
Also I would do the following changes:
-2 mountains
-1 fork
-1 Chrome Mox
+3 Magma Jet
+1 Black Lotus
Also do the following:
-4 Seething Song
+4 Rite of Flame
Also
-4 Shock
+4 Rift Bolt
That should allow you to optimize your deck considerably
I used to play this arch-type so take or leave it but this is how I would play it today. The fetches are for thinning so I better say that now before the comments roll in. I would say the clock opp has is about 4 turns before he's what I call a roasted turkey ready for carving.........mmm I love turkey lol {note no turkeys were harmed in the making of the post} just having fun guys. But I hope you like this build.
S.M.
I used to play this arch-type so take or leave it but this is how I would play it today. The fetches are for thinning so I better say that now before the comments roll in.
I dropped the Petal and went with the Mana Crypt for that extra boost.
Pros:,
This build keeps you out of Chalice locks.
Nothing is beyound casting cost of 3 just incase you face a Sphere.
The Magus finishes the job in the end, and Fanatic keeps the board clean so your spells go right to the dome.
Cons:,
It's a mono colored deck of the worse kind leaving little room for error.
Combo decks are going to walk all over you.
Last but not least...........Chill anyone?.........but who plays that card I guess.
I dunno why you guys don't pack more critters. They are seriously key, if you want to consistently win and not lose gas. Because this deck does lose gas quickly.
I dunno why you guys don't pack more critters. They are seriously key, if you want to consistently win and not lose gas. Because this deck does lose gas quickly.
um... this is a thread discussing burn, not sligh... big difference...
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
You are correct though, burn does run out of gas relatively fast... which is why I am testing Mindstorm Crown in my legacy version of this deck. However in this version of the deck we have Wheel of Fortune, and in some peoples decks Browbeat, with which to ensure that the deck does not run out of gas as fast as it could.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
This looks like a fun deck, but that's all bud just fun. I'm out now but I do wish you luck with your deck and the steps you'll take to improve it.
The only difference between our decks is the use of Magus of the Scroll in your deck, and incinerate in mine, well and browbeat... but really in the case of browbeat its all a matter of preference. I personally do not like giving my opponent the choice of what happens to him or me... hence why I do not like cards like browbeat.
In any case I could see an argument made for adding Magus of the Scroll in place of the Incinerates. However as it stands right now, I seriously think Magus of the Scroll is a bit overcosted & random for what it does... it costs 3 mana for a potential 2 damage... that is a little bit too much mana for the damage... that is like a Shock costing 3 mana, would you play shock if it cost 3 mana? Hell we don't generally play shock even though it only costs 1 mana. The only reason you are suggesting to play magus of the scroll is because it is reusable where as the rest of the deck is not. However the problem with that, is it gives the opponents creature removal a target... which is never a good thing in burn.
In any case, I would rather run Grim Lavamancer over the Magus of the Scroll just for what the two happen to do. The Lavamancer just happens to be more appropriately costed for what it does.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
The only difference between our decks is the use of Magus of the Scroll in your deck, and incinerate in mine, well and browbeat... but really in the case of browbeat its all a matter of preference. I personally do not like giving my opponent the choice of what happens to him or me... hence why I do not like cards like browbeat.
In any case I could see an argument made for adding Magus of the Scroll in place of the Incinerates. However as it stands right now, I seriously think Magus of the Scroll is a bit overcosted & random for what it does... it costs 3 mana for a potential 2 damage... that is a little bit too much mana for the damage... that is like a Shock costing 3 mana, would you play shock if it cost 3 mana? Hell we don't generally play shock even though it only costs 1 mana. The only reason you are suggesting to play magus of the scroll is because it is reusable where as the rest of the deck is not. However the problem with that, is it gives the opponents creature removal a target... which is never a good thing in burn.
In any case, I would rather run Grim Lavamancer over the Magus of the Scroll just for what the two happen to do. The Lavamancer just happens to be more appropriately costed for what it does.
I was just going to walk away from this, but I must point out something you're not seeing with Grim Lavamancer. I believe you have to use your graveyard in order for the ability to resolve. I don't know what your play group is like, but the guys I face you won't ever have a shot to use his ability more than once {or just soley game 1}. Now on the other hand the MoS is a C.Scoll {last I heard C.Scroll is just sick in a deck were your hand most of the time is sitting at 1-2 cards, but I might be wrong................but maybe not} on steriods being he can still pick away and bits of life once the board is clean. So a Shock you say............I don't think so.
You say that's the only differance, but I have to disagree with you. Why not give your opp the choice on Browbeat? I mean they take 5 for {3} or you draw 3 for {3} either way the choice isn't like it's going to help your opp. The rest of your changes I'll leave alone because they would be me nit picking, but like I said your deck looks fun and that's all once you go toe to toe with a tier 1 arch-type deck if you're not ready and tuned thinking about all angles of what can/or will happen throughout your match~up.
I guess something I might have pointed out was that I had some interesting tech in the sideboard of my red burn deck. there was no aggro deck that could beat me, or at least not consistently, and control was usually a pretty easy win..if you unloaded int he same turn. combo could be devastating, but since most of it seems to have some blue in it, then there are some interesting things you can do that don't include the 8 blast package (found I didn't like it..I'm a burn player, not a counter player. the only things I should be countering are his life points). Since I maindecked 4 black vise, one thing I found extremely helpful was bounce/destruction...say, to the tune of active volcano. the bounce an island clause is just mean in a deck where you want their cards in their hand. 4 of those, 4 return target creature to opponents hand (either dead/gone or the stingscourger..useful against colossi), and then 7 cards more appropriate to your weak matchups (for me, was pyrostatic pillar, and some sudden shock) and you have a very competitive deck. but I can't stress this enough...unload in the same turn. counterspell decks will roll you if you try to play their game. overload them, every time.
18 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
Kill Spells:
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
2 Shard Volley
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Flamebreak
4 Incinerate
Its the cleanest most efficient build I can think of for the format... but it may still be a little too slow in my opinion. What do you all think, and do you have any advice on making it faster for the format (like maybe adding lotus or moxes or something)?
But to comment on the deck posted.
I wouldn't use 4x Chrome Mox in a deck that has no card drawing, and where all the gas you can manage to draw counts. Using your burnspells to make mana out if it isn't really helping your strategy of burning your opponent asap.
Also, instead of using "sub-par" burnspells. I'd rather have creatures like fanatic, jackal pup, t-maniac, kird ape, mox monkey etc.. in a meta like this, they will deal more dmg for you than a single burn spell.
You have to play this type of deck kind with a sort of control player mind-set. (if that makes sense)
You need cards that make your opponent slower at least to the point where you can keep up with their game. The one thing that this type of deck does good is that it keeps damage flowing constantly while at the same time it can disrupt mana-bases and has some answer to other strategies your opponent tries to pull out (for example: Pyrostatic Pillar vs Storm-Combo or Ankh of Mishra vs Gush.dec)
As a start I would suggest changing your manabase and add 4x Wasteland and 1x Strip mine and add 3 or 4 copies of Gorilla Shaman.
Splash green for Taiga (if you want) so that you can use Kird Ape and Goyf (the only 2drop creature you want) otherwise stick to the good 1 drops.
Black Lotus (duh)
Mox Ruby (duh)
Lotus Petal
Sol Ring (depends if you are running Wheel/beats or Cursed Scroll/Ankh etc..)
You don't want too much accel as these card aren't very helpful later in the game. You want these just to have the oportunity of an "explosive" start.
If your going to build a deck at least give yourself the best chance to win. A blue splash allows for allot of card advantage. I put in gorilla shaman over shattering spree because mox monkey can beat. Mogg Fanatic helps against dredge. Fork can copy a recall or brainstorm, or act as another burn spell if needed. Top and fetchlands and brainstorms help dift through unneeded mana sources.
Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage. Magma Jet >>>>>>>>> Shard Volley. Smash to Smithereens seems like an auto-include.
I am not sure about your mana base, but I do like much of the ideas you propose in the deck... though I think Smash to Smithereens might just be better than the Mox Monkey for purposes of Artifact disruption (due to the fact that it both destroys an artifact and does damage). I will be posting a modification to the deck you posted in a few minutes... one that is slightly more "Red" oriented....
Mana:
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Saphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
3 Mountain
Creatures:
4 Mogg Fanatic
Burn:
4 Fireblast
2 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
Utility Burn:
4 Magma Jet
4 Smash to Smithereens
Utility Spells:
1 Fork
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
--welt
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
--welt
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
lightning Boltx4
chain Lightningx4
fireblastx4
lava Spikex4
browbeatx4
breaking Pointx4
shockx4
incineratex4
seething Songx4
wheel Of Fortunex1
forkx2
chrome Moxx1
20 Mountains
What Ya'll Think
I seriously think Flamebreak would be a far better choice than Breaking point. If only because it doesn't give your opponent the choice of losing his creatures or taking 6 damage, instead it causes him to in all likelyhood lose alot of creatures and take 3 damage at the same time. In either situation breaking point and flamebreak cost the same mana price.
Also I would do the following changes:
-2 mountains
-1 fork
-1 Chrome Mox
+3 Magma Jet
+1 Black Lotus
Also do the following:
-4 Seething Song
+4 Rite of Flame
Also
-4 Shock
+4 Rift Bolt
That should allow you to optimize your deck considerably
So we are looking at the following List:
4 Rite of Flame
1 Black Lotus
18 Mountain
Three for One
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Breaking Point / Flamebreak
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
Card Manipulation
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Browbeat
3 Magma Jet
1 Fork
S.M.
4x Wasteland
1x Stripe Mine
2x Bloodstained Mire
11x Moutian
Artifact (7)
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
3x Null Rod
4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Magus of the Scroll
Enchantment (6)
2x Seal of Fire
4x Sulfuric Vortex
Spell (22)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
2x Fireblast
4x Lava Spike
2x Browbeat
4x Char
2x Smash to Smithereens
4x Price of Progress
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Shattering Spree
looks really good
Pros:,
This build keeps you out of Chalice locks.
Nothing is beyound casting cost of 3 just incase you face a Sphere.
The Magus finishes the job in the end, and Fanatic keeps the board clean so your spells go right to the dome.
Cons:,
It's a mono colored deck of the worse kind leaving little room for error.
Combo decks are going to walk all over you.
Last but not least...........Chill anyone?.........but who plays that card I guess.
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
11x Mountain
Disruption
4x Wasteland
1x Stripmine
4x Null Rod
2x Smash to Smithereens
4x Mogg Fanatic
Burn Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Chain Lightning
4x Incinerate
4x Fireblast
1x Wheel of Fortune
4x Magma Jet
2x Bloodstained Mire
um... this is a thread discussing burn, not sligh... big difference...
You are correct though, burn does run out of gas relatively fast... which is why I am testing Mindstorm Crown in my legacy version of this deck. However in this version of the deck we have Wheel of Fortune, and in some peoples decks Browbeat, with which to ensure that the deck does not run out of gas as fast as it could.
This looks like a fun deck, but that's all bud just fun. I'm out now but I do wish you luck with your deck and the steps you'll take to improve it.
The only difference between our decks is the use of Magus of the Scroll in your deck, and incinerate in mine, well and browbeat... but really in the case of browbeat its all a matter of preference. I personally do not like giving my opponent the choice of what happens to him or me... hence why I do not like cards like browbeat.
In any case I could see an argument made for adding Magus of the Scroll in place of the Incinerates. However as it stands right now, I seriously think Magus of the Scroll is a bit overcosted & random for what it does... it costs 3 mana for a potential 2 damage... that is a little bit too much mana for the damage... that is like a Shock costing 3 mana, would you play shock if it cost 3 mana? Hell we don't generally play shock even though it only costs 1 mana. The only reason you are suggesting to play magus of the scroll is because it is reusable where as the rest of the deck is not. However the problem with that, is it gives the opponents creature removal a target... which is never a good thing in burn.
In any case, I would rather run Grim Lavamancer over the Magus of the Scroll just for what the two happen to do. The Lavamancer just happens to be more appropriately costed for what it does.
I was just going to walk away from this, but I must point out something you're not seeing with Grim Lavamancer. I believe you have to use your graveyard in order for the ability to resolve. I don't know what your play group is like, but the guys I face you won't ever have a shot to use his ability more than once {or just soley game 1}. Now on the other hand the MoS is a C.Scoll {last I heard C.Scroll is just sick in a deck were your hand most of the time is sitting at 1-2 cards, but I might be wrong................but maybe not} on steriods being he can still pick away and bits of life once the board is clean. So a Shock you say............I don't think so.
You say that's the only differance, but I have to disagree with you. Why not give your opp the choice on Browbeat? I mean they take 5 for {3} or you draw 3 for {3} either way the choice isn't like it's going to help your opp. The rest of your changes I'll leave alone because they would be me nit picking, but like I said your deck looks fun and that's all once you go toe to toe with a tier 1 arch-type deck if you're not ready and tuned thinking about all angles of what can/or will happen throughout your match~up.
--welt
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
4x barbarian ring
1x mox ruby
4x Fireblast
1x Wheel of Fortune
3x Flame Javelin
4x Ball Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Magma Jet
4x Lava Spike
4x Chain Lightning
4x Shard Volley
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Needle Drop
Yes...Needle drop....
I think it is a good card because its one damage that doesn't cost you a card. Turn two flame javelin (needle drop+"bolt")
Thanks Darth Monkey
Or even
T1: mountain, suspend rift bolt
T2: pop rift bolt, mountain, needle drop, another bolt