MTG Salvation

Look at these results from the SCG P9 tournament:

1st Place




2nd Place



3rd Place




4th Place



5th Place



6th Place



7th Place



8th Place



What is with the Dreadnought deck?

Has Tarmogoyf taken over Vintage as well?

Quote from mysterygoo

Has Tarmogoyf taken over Vintage as well?

Why is that surprising? It is a strong card, and Vintage is the format where people will be getting lots of lands, instants and artifacts in the yard fast. Plus, it is a very efficient creature. So I think it has a nice place in vintage. I am happy to see a r/g beats deck win.

Tarmogoyf is a very strong beatstick so it should be no surprise fish can use it as a clock. It also fills a very important role in GAT. Against decks like Fish and Stax the GAT player can simply run out an early Goyf and protect it long enough to win. Dryad doesn't do this as well because you can't grow it as fast when your opponent is locking you down and it is hurt by bounce. I wouldn't go as far as to maindeck it in most metagames, but right now it is a strong card in the board. This might change as Stax builds become more creature heavy and people begin compensating for Goyf.

The Dreadnought build is an interesting innovation for the Fish archetype. You have your standard Trinket Mage toolbox as well as Nought to get into play with Stifle, which can also be used to hit Fetches and other activated abilities. Nought is not it's only plan however, it is just a Fish deck that happens to run Nought to put on early pressure. Another thing to note is that virtually all the decks are running 5+ artifact mana sources but Null Rod is seeing no play as a mana denial effect.

Quote from pokerbob1

Why is that surprising? It is a strong card, and Vintage is the format where people will be getting lots of lands, instants and artifacts in the yard fast. Plus, it is a very efficient creature. So I think it has a nice place in vintage. I am happy to see a r/g beats deck win.

Agreed.

I had been expecting tarmogoyf a bit sooner. Locally, there are still many oath decks to consider before playing such a deck, but I guess its quite capable of fighting a swinging war where people play GAT.

As for GAT with Goyf, well it _is_ still an efficient creature, with less vulnerabilities than the tog. I mean, tog has been outnumbered by drayd for ages anyway; might as well go with a creature that's feeding off an opponent's graveyard (who's pumping his his own goyf as much as possible) as opposed to a small tog because of leyline in play.

R/G Beats FTW. I am very happy to see it come in first, although it looks nothing like what i play.

I am glad to see red green aggro take a win.

Dreadnought is a good card. I play blue white fish most of the time. I just added too and made the trickbinds stifles. The deck still plays the same, just if i draw a dreadnought and a stifle i have a fast clock on you.

Tarmogofy is a really realy good creature why would you not expect it to be palyed in type 1.

I'm surprized there wasn't a flash deck in the top 8. I'm pretty sure that is the best combo deck available in vintage right now.

Quote from Crusade

I'm surprized there wasn't a flash deck in the top 8. I'm pretty sure that is the best combo deck available in vintage right now.

I am sorry to say but Flash is not really the best combo deck right now.
The thing with Flash is.. its like Oath. When you have stupid draws, and don't have Flash in hand, you can't win. It is good but only for its raw power. Its not the best combo deck out there but it is one of the simplest to use.

I'm very happy to see that R/G won even though I am not that much enthusiastic regarding his disruption. But hey, he won and shows that it can be done.

Thank God that its not like the last time where the top 8 showed a total of 32 pieces of Gush...

Quote from Crusade

I'm surprized there wasn't a flash deck in the top 8. I'm pretty sure that is the best combo deck available in vintage right now.

I disagree with this statement.

Yes, Flash has the most raw power of any Vintage deck, but it is so easily hated out, and inconsistent. It has fallen to the way side of Gush Tendrils and the nutty new Super Long variants.

Quote from dawgie

I'm very happy to see that R/G won even though I am not that much enthusiastic regarding his disruption. But hey, he won and shows that it can be done.

I whole heartedly agree with this statement. He really seemed to bank on a lot of Stax in the field, and I'm sure that assumption paid off. I like the fact that he won, but I gotta wonder how he would have faired if he faced some Combo decks (which he doesn't have much hate against, some, but not a huge amount).

I can finally build cheap decks and win, besides fish

Quote from Black_Lotus

I disagree with this statement.

Yes, Flash has the most raw power of any Vintage deck, but it is so easily hated out, and inconsistent. It has fallen to the way side of Gush Tendrils and the nutty new Super Long variants.

Super Long? Is that anything like super aids? Just one teaspoon of super-AIDS in your butt and you're dead in three years.

Anyways, Agro winning vintage, not u splashed agro but "I play kird ape" agro. I wish I could have played against that in a tourney so when I loss I could have given that guy a high five.

Quote from Pringlesman

Super Long? Is that anything like super aids? Just one teaspoon of super-AIDS in your butt and you're dead in three years.

It's the name of the deck given by the team who made it....

Quote from MD

As a Flash player, I'm sad to see people calling the deck jank.

Nobody called the deck "jank", it is simply not the best combo option, unless one is not profieicnt enough to pilot the Long variants. It is simply to inconsistent.

wow in a 10 proxy (which this was I think) event that first place deck would be less than $200 to put together... That makes vintage almost cheaper than standard!

Quote from MD

As a Flash player, I'm sad to see people calling the deck jank. A properly built SB can pretty much let you win any matchup. Right now I have Reverent Silence to kill Leylines, Trygon Predator against Stax, a Winged Sliver against Goblins (it's not super awesome, but it's certainly better than nothing), and some Leylines of my own to stop Ichorid and opposing Flash decks. I even tested putting a Rorix in the SB to Flash for if my opponent plays a Fanatic, lol.

Anyways, Flash is okay, but I'm insanely lucky, so that helps too. I was just testing before I posted this, and I cast a Summoners Pact (even though I had a Hulk in hand), just so I could shuffle and cast Brainstorm. I was banking on Jesus putting a Flash on the top and he did. How lucky!

Flash is definitely not Jank. I lost 1 match to it in Worlds (I lost my other to Vincent Forino and his "ghetto" storm). MD is right, a proper SB in the hands of a good flash player can be very tough.

That being said - BUW Fish ftw. Aven Mindcensor is a dirty "**** you" that hasn't seen all that much play (at least not at world's, nor in my local area).

Quote from hypeiv

wow in a 10 proxy (which this was I think) event that first place deck would be less than $200 to put together... That makes vintage almost cheaper than standard!

I think it's a huge myth that Vintage is that much more expensive to play then Standard. Think about it from this perspective. A set of power runs 3k-3500. You don't necessarily need all the pieces, just the important ones (Black Lotus, Mox Jet, Mox Sapphire, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk). Now your total is 1800-2000. Sometimes you dont even need all of these. In the end, you may have somewhere between 1k and 4k invested in Vintage "staples" and at this point, you can pretty much build most of the Vintage Decks (minus specialty cards). This base doesn't change much - if you own the cards already you don't need to keep buying.

In standard, some decks (at least when Rav was legal) had $100+ mana bases + staples. Standard is constantly changing so unless you can get even trades - we end up constantly buying cards. New land, New sets, etc... I think it may be fair to say that in a given year, you may spend less than what you would have for Vintage - but over 2-3 years I think you end up spending more in Standard when you just try to keep up.

My question, perhaps taking a backseat to the rest of the 'goyf/jank debate, as why only 1 Library in all t8? Especially in deck running 4x gush? I realize it's taxing on the colored mana bases, but is that seriously why it was cut from most decklists, or is drawing a single card [for FREE] when you already have 7 not good enough anymore?

thoughts?

Quote from Themchops

My question, perhaps taking a backseat to the rest of the 'goyf/jank debate, as why only 1 Library in all t8? Especially in deck running 4x gush? I realize it's taxing on the colored mana bases, but is that seriously why it was cut from most decklists, or is drawing a single card [for FREE] when you already have 7 not good enough anymore?

thoughts?

I'm as puzzled as you are. I suppose some people may have felt it be a wasted space, but even worse case scenario - it sure makes a good wasteland/stripmine Target. I personally like it - but if we think about Gush and how the deck plays out, LoA is good on turns 1, 2 & 3 until you got gushes coming out then you have too many cards in hand until end of turn, but by then you've walked your tog or dryad or you have your combo and it doesn't matter.

The reason not to run loa is really quite simple: it isn't an island. In the control match, gat already has a strong enough engine, but it needs to be online. Playing a colorless land doesn't really help. Furthermore, with the advent of stax decks and varients, it really is important that the deck stays as focussed as possible: gat is very mana lite, it can't really afford to run a "win-more" land. LoA wins games, I won't deny it, but half the time if gat has 7 cards in hand, either it's already winning or its locked under spheres, and you really don't want a nonbasic land vs stax locks.

Running loa really just isn't a great choice in the modern meta, at least not until they erata it to be an island.

Quote from Themchops

My question, perhaps taking a backseat to the rest of the 'goyf/jank debate, as why only 1 Library in all t8? Especially in deck running 4x gush? I realize it's taxing on the colored mana bases, but is that seriously why it was cut from most decklists, or is drawing a single card [for FREE] when you already have 7 not good enough anymore?

thoughts?

i always see it as card advantage. If you get it early game that is good, if not you got gushes to back it up and a card to discard, anyways, it is also a good target for wastelands, and strip mines, meaning leaving all your nice dualies alone.

It is a good card, the key for his deck is card advantage, so he needs to pump as much as he can get.

The problem is card management, Library requires 7 cards (not at least 7), returning two lands and drawing two cards is +3 cards (+2 lands, +2 cards, -1 for Gush itself), so it becomes more difficult to try to hit 7 than it does to just keep colored mana available (and more basic lands, in the current environment, is better than the possibility of a free card or two from a Wastable land).

Mang, now I've been out of the T1 loop for about two years, but I know a thing or two that still hold true. When aggro is the deck to beat, then the metagame is just in a state of change. Besides aggro is good because it can disrupt the opponent, which works best against control and sometimes combo. Creatures alone will accomplish nothing, because there are so many ways to deal with them. The problem is that control decks with said aim would be accordingly vulnerable in other places, with a less optimal configuration, because who really wins with creatures, as opposed to board and tempo control? So the metagame is slow to change away from aggro, because control cannot come in straight up to solve the issue with any success. Eventually, one or more decks will be invented or become refined enough to the extent of totally smoking/outclassing aggro often enough.. then control comes back into the picture, fighting multiple fronts since there is no "deck to beat" let alone an aggro deck to beat, which is what control does best, because its cards are powerful and *flexible*.

Quote from Caselogik

I think it's a huge myth that Vintage is that much more expensive to play then Standard. Think about it from this perspective. A set of power runs 3k-3500. You don't necessarily need all the pieces, just the important ones (Black Lotus, Mox Jet, Mox Sapphire, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk). Now your total is 1800-2000. Sometimes you dont even need all of these. In the end, you may have somewhere between 1k and 4k invested in Vintage "staples" and at this point, you can pretty much build most of the Vintage Decks (minus specialty cards). This base doesn't change much - if you own the cards already you don't need to keep buying.

In standard, some decks (at least when Rav was legal) had $100+ mana bases + staples. Standard is constantly changing so unless you can get even trades - we end up constantly buying cards. New land, New sets, etc... I think it may be fair to say that in a given year, you may spend less than what you would have for Vintage - but over 2-3 years I think you end up spending more in Standard when you just try to keep up.

Yes but a good standard player can keep cycling his cards into the new things, once he has enough stock to do so, which is less than what you'd need to invest for the T1 necessities. That's often what good standard players do, they only ever spend money to sign up for tournies and possibly travel.

Im agree with the fact of flash is not the best combo option because is Is a little unstable (at least the version whit hulk). The version whit academy rector is more solid..... In my personal opinion

Quote from Crusade

I'm surprized there wasn't a flash deck in the top 8. I'm pretty sure that is the best combo deck available in vintage right now.

It is the most powerful, but the least sturdy really.