I dont see the Swinemaster producing many pigs unless the opponent just has nothing. A 1/4 is much better on defense than offense and will likely get eaten the first time it swings in. Even on curve, on turn 4 I'd rather be playing green's great 4 drops, not play a 2/2 and choke up my mana.
Yes there will be times when it's good, but I just think the floor on this card is much lower than the ceiling.
I finally found time to look through the whole spoiler and read to all the the posts.
Regarding Breath Weapon and red control: I supported this archetype for a long time and it was quite decent even before Cannonade. There are certainly a few interesting cards in red, which support this archetype like Rukh Egg and I did actually quite like Wall of Heat as it's really hard to deal with and can basically prevent every X/2 from attacking.
I do like booth Clockwork Fox and Carefree Swinemaster. Clockwork Fox is very similar to Spore Crawler, which was actually a decent card in green before. The Swinemaster is a decent blocker, which can act as an opportunistic attacker. It also works fine with combat tricks.
I also realised, that no one has talked about Bronze Walrus. It's obviously no Llanowar Visionary, but Scry 2 is certainly valueable and being able to go into any deck and actually fix your mana instead of just seems really nice.
I think it can definitely be said, that this set has been pretty incredible with regards to the amount of cubeable cards. Since I cut the Campi/Draw Duals in exchange for the Gates I now had 5 slots for monocolor cards and decided to add a whole bunch of new cards (Out > In):
I also skipped the initiative stuff for now. Still 10 new CLB cards.
Added (for something):
+ Greatsword of Tyr
+ Pegasus Guardian: Fits the flicker theme. Will see if good enough.
+ Blur: Fits the flicker theme. Will see if good enough.
+ Winter Eladrin
+ Arms of Hadar
+ Nefarious Imp: Fits my sac theme. Will see if good enough.
+ Breath Weapon
+ Colossal Badger: Always on the search for playable big creatures. Adventure helps with green Hexproof creatures.
+ Clockwork Fox: Flicker target, sac target or roadblock against aggro decks.
+ Shields of Velis Vel: Experimental helper against the new mass removals for white.
Concrete Replacement:
+ Roving Harper - Priest of Ancient Lore
+ Impostor of the Sixth Pride - Blade of the Sixth Pride: Rebel, and impostor has protection from f.cannonade/breathweapon.
+ Territorial Scythecat - Hungry Spriggan: Change because of the additional massremoval and i wanted to add some landfall stuff anyway. (There are 10 Bounce lands and 12 "fetches" in my cube).
Skipped:
. Cloakwood Swarmkeeper - no real token support
. You Meet in a Tavern - no real token support and with the additional massremoval i think a small overrun is worse than something like symbiosis
. Stunning Strike - i dont play murder so why would i play this.
. Carefree Swinemaster - not conviced. 2 mana activation cost seems cumbersome, but i'm ready to be wrong about that.
. Bronze Walrus - didn't make the cut for now
. Guildsworn Prowler - didn't make the cut. my black is rather slow. (i still like baleful eidolon as my cheap deathtouch card because you can combo it with a pinger).
Regarding Fiery Cannonade/Breath Weapon: Both do not really fit what red wants to do in my cube, BUT i noticed if you get the removal hookup during the draft you can always be the "control" deck and play them easily.
I'm surprised Arms of Hadar isn't getting more attention. Like everyone else I imagine I haven't had the chance to play with a one-sided Infest in Limited yet but in theory I'd be hard-pressed trying to find another black card that is as good as this one in Cube.
I played with the Monarch cards recently but with Initiative being added to those types of effects now I decided to pull the trigger and exclude all sets from my cube that were designed for non-standard Limited play, which is mostly multiplayer draft formats such as Commander Legends. In turn I've created a 30 card expansion to my cube that has Monarch, Initiative, the 5 new gates and the strong board wipes in black and red among other things from those sets which we can shuffle in and add whenever we feel like it. I never did any sort of power-related bans before and I wouldn't consider this decision a ban per se, but the play patterns of Monarch have been met with enough negative feedback from my playgroup that I'm willing to take it out alongside Initiative and any such future ability they might come up with.
That said, I think I like Initiative more than Monarch because it actually advances the board state instead of just creating CA.
Apart from that I like a lot of the Adventure cards from this set. In ELD Ardenvale Tactician seemed like the only one that was at least borderline cubeable but this time around they created some decent Adventure effects paired with serviceable bodies for later. I think I could find a cubeable one for each color in the set.
The two black 2-drops are decent. Dire Mimic is interesting as a colorless 5 mana 5/5 Flash blocker on the front end, not too shabby. Greatsword of Tyr is a little hard to evaluate but seems very potentially powerful.
Overall an insanely powerful set. Not a bad time for me to start excluding those kinds of sets from my core cube, as I think 32 cards that are at least borderline playable are a bit much for one set. Normally there are around up to 10ish cards I get in foil for any new set that comes out and my current buylist for this set is at 32 cards...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."
It's not a common, it's special rarity. Even if it were a common, Prismatic Piper would have been a commander option first.
Prismatic Piper is also Special Rarity.
I'm surprised Arms of Hadar isn't getting more attention. Like everyone else I imagine I haven't had the chance to play with a one-sided Infest in Limited yet but in theory I'd be hard-pressed trying to find another black card that is as good as this one in Cube.
It was spoiled pretty late so there wasn't that much time to discuss it, but I agree with you that it has a huge staple potential. I think everyone here acknowledged the card and put it in their cube.
That said, I think I like Initiative more than Monarch because it actually advances the board state instead of just creating CA.
I think in limited Initiative will be more powerful, because you are getting actual effects instead of a random card.
Btw. you could also just exclude the Mechanics, that aren't meant for any format other than commander, instead of the whole set. I've only had bad feedback for the Monarch cards. It's also not the first thing I removed, even though it was strong. I also excluded the Aura/Hexproof archetype a while ago, because people simply didn't like non-interactive mechanics. Monarch/Initiative are basically just as non-interactive.
Also passing on excellent fixing doesn't really seem to do much good, IMO. I think, that the Gates/Thriving Lands are pretty much the best tapped fixing we have and it reduces slots for basically strictly better Uncharted Havens, which will very rarely end up last pick, like the Duals often do.
I just like clear lines. If I start excluding Monarch and Initiative because they're 'clearly not made for 1v1 Limited' then where do I draw the line to other cards. Will of the Council was also clearly made for multiplayer and Custodi Squire is only as good as it is because its ability balances itself in multiplayer. Arms of Hadar is also clearly meant to be just another take of Eyeblight Massacre for a format where it's unclear which of the two is actually better. And this especially applies to the Thriving lands and new Gates.
They were put into Jumpstart because in that format you literally shuffle together two boosters and if you draw bad mana you die without casting a spell. And they were put into Baldur's Gate because EDH players have very little tolerance for mana screw and for having to do work for your mana to function. We won't see that effect at common in a regular 1v1 limited set... probably ever. We haven't even seen that power level at uncommon. They're easily better than the tri-lands and any other uncommon dual.
So again, where do I draw a clear and easily understandable line? Currently I'd rather keep it clean and just ban the sets rather than making complex and arbitraty bans, but who knows, maybe my take on it will change once I start missing Custodi and the lands too much.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
seems definitely playable. giving your opponent options, is kinda meh tho.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
wanna bring Carefree Swinemaster to the discussion tho. no love?
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Yes there will be times when it's good, but I just think the floor on this card is much lower than the ceiling.
Regarding Breath Weapon and red control: I supported this archetype for a long time and it was quite decent even before Cannonade. There are certainly a few interesting cards in red, which support this archetype like Rukh Egg and I did actually quite like Wall of Heat as it's really hard to deal with and can basically prevent every X/2 from attacking.
Blur is kind of interesting if you support the Archaeomancer etc - Ghostly Flicker/Displace/Ephemerate Combo as this can simply draw a card for 3 mana as often as you like with an Archaeomancer-like creature on the board.
I do like booth Clockwork Fox and Carefree Swinemaster. Clockwork Fox is very similar to Spore Crawler, which was actually a decent card in green before. The Swinemaster is a decent blocker, which can act as an opportunistic attacker. It also works fine with combat tricks.
I also realised, that no one has talked about Bronze Walrus. It's obviously no Llanowar Visionary, but Scry 2 is certainly valueable and being able to go into any deck and actually fix your mana instead of just seems really nice.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
→ Skybridge Towers > Black Dragon Gate: What can I say. The Thriving Lands where amazing and so are these. 5 Slots for basically perfect fixing.
→ Waterfront District > Citadel Gate: "
→ Tramway Station > Cliffgate: "
→ Racers' Ring > Manor Gate: "
→ Botanical Plaza > Sea Gate: "
→ Silverquill Campus > Roving Harper: Sure it's no Inspiring Overseer, but so is every blue card no Mulldrifter. A "free" 2/2 is still really strong.
→ Prismari Campus > Breath Weapon: I like getting more Wraths in pauper, which deal more than 1.
→ Witherbloom Campus > Winter Eladrin: Yeah... Man-o'-War I guess.
→ Lorehold Campus > Undercellar Myconid: I really want Swarm to be a Naya archetype and while R and W have more than enough good cards I was always hoping they would print more 2 for 1 green creatures. This is mostly here for archetype support, rather than raw power level.
→ Spore Crawler > Cloakwood Swarmkeeper: "
→ Terrain Elemental > Carefree Swinemaster: "
→ Shimmerdrift Vale > Bronze Walrus: I think a watered down colorless Llanowar Visionary, that can fix mana is still good enough.
→ Cruel Witness > Stunning Strike: I really like how they worded this, whith the combat clause. Makes it really flexible.
→ Ballynock Cohort > Greatsword of Tyr: I've always really liked this type of effect and I think with the fact, that it perpetually grows and is really fairly costed overall it might actually be worth it.
→ Daybreak Chimera > Blessed Hippogriff: I was surprised to see that the spell is actually just 1 mana. It really doesn't go much cheaper than that and the 2 for 1 potential for this card is really high.
→ Clawing Torment > Arms of Hadar: A one-sided pseudo wrath seems pretty insane actually. This might actually be a staple.
→ Boot Nipper > Guildsworn Prowler: This seems like a decent upgrade.
On my watchlsit are Clockwork Fox, Sea Hag and Mold Folk for my black sacrifice theme.
Edit: Since my playgroup has voted to kick monarch out, I'm not gonna include Initiative for obvious reasons.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I also skipped the initiative stuff for now. Still 10 new CLB cards.
Added (for something):
+ Greatsword of Tyr
+ Pegasus Guardian: Fits the flicker theme. Will see if good enough.
+ Blur: Fits the flicker theme. Will see if good enough.
+ Winter Eladrin
+ Arms of Hadar
+ Nefarious Imp: Fits my sac theme. Will see if good enough.
+ Breath Weapon
+ Colossal Badger: Always on the search for playable big creatures. Adventure helps with green Hexproof creatures.
+ Clockwork Fox: Flicker target, sac target or roadblock against aggro decks.
+ Shields of Velis Vel: Experimental helper against the new mass removals for white.
Concrete Replacement:
+ Roving Harper - Priest of Ancient Lore
+ Impostor of the Sixth Pride - Blade of the Sixth Pride: Rebel, and impostor has protection from f.cannonade/breathweapon.
+ Territorial Scythecat - Hungry Spriggan: Change because of the additional massremoval and i wanted to add some landfall stuff anyway. (There are 10 Bounce lands and 12 "fetches" in my cube).
Skipped:
. Cloakwood Swarmkeeper - no real token support
. You Meet in a Tavern - no real token support and with the additional massremoval i think a small overrun is worse than something like symbiosis
. Stunning Strike - i dont play murder so why would i play this.
. Carefree Swinemaster - not conviced. 2 mana activation cost seems cumbersome, but i'm ready to be wrong about that.
. Bronze Walrus - didn't make the cut for now
. Guildsworn Prowler - didn't make the cut. my black is rather slow. (i still like baleful eidolon as my cheap deathtouch card because you can combo it with a pinger).
Regarding Fiery Cannonade/Breath Weapon: Both do not really fit what red wants to do in my cube, BUT i noticed if you get the removal hookup during the draft you can always be the "control" deck and play them easily.
I'm surprised Arms of Hadar isn't getting more attention. Like everyone else I imagine I haven't had the chance to play with a one-sided Infest in Limited yet but in theory I'd be hard-pressed trying to find another black card that is as good as this one in Cube.
I played with the Monarch cards recently but with Initiative being added to those types of effects now I decided to pull the trigger and exclude all sets from my cube that were designed for non-standard Limited play, which is mostly multiplayer draft formats such as Commander Legends. In turn I've created a 30 card expansion to my cube that has Monarch, Initiative, the 5 new gates and the strong board wipes in black and red among other things from those sets which we can shuffle in and add whenever we feel like it. I never did any sort of power-related bans before and I wouldn't consider this decision a ban per se, but the play patterns of Monarch have been met with enough negative feedback from my playgroup that I'm willing to take it out alongside Initiative and any such future ability they might come up with.
That said, I think I like Initiative more than Monarch because it actually advances the board state instead of just creating CA.
Apart from that I like a lot of the Adventure cards from this set. In ELD Ardenvale Tactician seemed like the only one that was at least borderline cubeable but this time around they created some decent Adventure effects paired with serviceable bodies for later. I think I could find a cubeable one for each color in the set.
The two black 2-drops are decent.
Dire Mimic is interesting as a colorless 5 mana 5/5 Flash blocker on the front end, not too shabby.
Greatsword of Tyr is a little hard to evaluate but seems very potentially powerful.
Overall an insanely powerful set. Not a bad time for me to start excluding those kinds of sets from my core cube, as I think 32 cards that are at least borderline playable are a bit much for one set. Normally there are around up to 10ish cards I get in foil for any new set that comes out and my current buylist for this set is at 32 cards...
- Last Word
Sadly not a common.
Constructed (Casual) | Pinksleeves |
Constructed (Pauper) | Izzet Fiend | Mono Black | Burn |
Constructed (Standard) | Under Construction |
Constructed (Modern) | Fate Seal |
Constructed (Legacy) | Dream Halls |
Constructed (Vintage) | Not Yet |
Constructed (Commander) | Sliver Overlord | Uril, the Miststalker | Braids, Cabal Minion |
Limited | Alara Block | Time Spiral Block | Innistrad Block | Rise of the Eldrazi |
???
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Prismatic Piper is also Special Rarity.
Constructed (Casual) | Pinksleeves |
Constructed (Pauper) | Izzet Fiend | Mono Black | Burn |
Constructed (Standard) | Under Construction |
Constructed (Modern) | Fate Seal |
Constructed (Legacy) | Dream Halls |
Constructed (Vintage) | Not Yet |
Constructed (Commander) | Sliver Overlord | Uril, the Miststalker | Braids, Cabal Minion |
Limited | Alara Block | Time Spiral Block | Innistrad Block | Rise of the Eldrazi |
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I think in limited Initiative will be more powerful, because you are getting actual effects instead of a random card.
Btw. you could also just exclude the Mechanics, that aren't meant for any format other than commander, instead of the whole set. I've only had bad feedback for the Monarch cards. It's also not the first thing I removed, even though it was strong. I also excluded the Aura/Hexproof archetype a while ago, because people simply didn't like non-interactive mechanics. Monarch/Initiative are basically just as non-interactive.
Also passing on excellent fixing doesn't really seem to do much good, IMO. I think, that the Gates/Thriving Lands are pretty much the best tapped fixing we have and it reduces slots for basically strictly better Uncharted Havens, which will very rarely end up last pick, like the Duals often do.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
They were put into Jumpstart because in that format you literally shuffle together two boosters and if you draw bad mana you die without casting a spell. And they were put into Baldur's Gate because EDH players have very little tolerance for mana screw and for having to do work for your mana to function. We won't see that effect at common in a regular 1v1 limited set... probably ever. We haven't even seen that power level at uncommon. They're easily better than the tri-lands and any other uncommon dual.
So again, where do I draw a clear and easily understandable line? Currently I'd rather keep it clean and just ban the sets rather than making complex and arbitraty bans, but who knows, maybe my take on it will change once I start missing Custodi and the lands too much.
- Last Word