So my original cube was a very tight, archetype driven 360 Pauper Cube. It was in fact, a little too tight. Drafting felt too on the rails and decks turned out too samey draft in and draft out.
I wanted to have more variety, so I rebuilt the cube from the ground up to be larger (450 instead of 360) and have archetypes that were more loose and could be combined in more ways. Our playgroup is smaller, usually 2-4, almost never more than 6, so I think a 450 cube should be big enough, though I am willing to go clear to 540 if we still find it too stale. A few notes:
Part of the whole purpose of this size increase was to increase variety, so I have deliberately avoided any “functional reprints”. So yes Savannah Lions is good, but I already have Elite Vanguard.
There are no signets or bounce lands. I don’t like non-green colors having that much easy access to that level of ramp/fixing.
I have avoided shadow creatures. I get that they’re powerful, I just don’t think being unblockable is that fun or interactive.
The ASFAN of removal is lower in this cube than in many. Not counting counterspells, tappers, or bounce, the ASFAN is at 2.43. That actually might be a bit too high for what I was aiming for, but I’m curious to hear other people’s opinions if that is too low.
Sometimes (especially in the Gold Section), I have avoided the “best card” in favor of something that signals an archetype a little more. Yes, Pillory of the Sleepless is better than Final Payment for Orzhov, but Final Payment signals an Aristocrats archetype, Pillory signals nothing.
The other part of the redesign was to make the archetypes more broad and less into two color pairs, this was both to allow the cube size to increase, and to allow for more variety in deck building so it didn’t feel like each color pair was the exact same when it got played. The broad themes of each color are:
White: Tokens/Swarm (subthemes of +1/+1 Counters, Fliers, and Blink/Flicker)
Blue: Spells Matter (subthemes of GY Matters, Fliers, and Blink/Flicker)
Black: Sacrifice (subthemes of GY Matters and Disruption)
Red: Burn (subthemes of Tokens/Swarm, Sacrifice, and Spells Matter)
Green: Ramp (subthemes of Tokens/Swarm and GY Matters)
There are also small amounts of “off-color” synergy sprinkled throughout the colors also, so there can be cross-pollination between archetypes outside of their typical color-pairing.
TLDR: Did a big redesign to increase the size of the cube and loosen up the archetypes, with the primary goal of adding variety to gameplay/draft, but not loosening it all so much that all decks become just “good stuff piles”. Let me know if anything looks off, out of place, or if I am missing some obviously good pieces. I’ve tried to put tags on cards to tell what archetype(s) they’re supposed to be supporting, with a generic “Good Stuff” tag if they are just in there for being strong or I like them.
When suggesting replacements I like any or all of the following:
Powerful cards: Obviously I want good, strong cards and so power is good. It is not the sole consideration though (Hymn to Tourach is bonkers for example, but that card is super unfun).
Cards with options or high amounts of decision making: Any card that is modal or has a lot of different ways it can be used is great.
Cards that can alter your pick orders somewhat, without being just total duds in the wrong deck: Something like Titanic Brawl makes you look twice at anything that makes a +1/+1 Counter, but you’ll happily play it in any Green deck where you want a removal spell anyway.
"Evaluate my cube" is a very frequently asked request in this forum and usually doesn't get a lot of responses, because it's really hard and a lot of work to evaluate a big list of cards. You will get a lot more responses if you ask specific questions, where you are unsure, like X vs. Y. People tend to respond to quickly answered questions like that a lot quicker.
I will also not go in depth on every single card, but just give my thoughts on the philosophy. Trying to balance creative drafting and a heavy focus on archetypes, which railroad you in a specific direction is very hard and requires a lot of testing. Cube size also has it's upsides and downsides in that context. Especially small archetypes with little support suffer a lot form a bigger cube size. I don't think that "goodstuff" drafting is actually such a bad thing. In my personal experience people tend to surprise you if you don't set borders to their creativety and people have shown me synergies I wasn't aware of.
About your archetypes:
For an archetype isn't defined by an amount of cards with a specific keyword/mechanic printed on them, but by the cards that hold these together, aka the payoff. In this context I wouldn't call Fliers, Disruption or Burn archetypes. I mean ramp is just green's version of tempo.
Spells matter, Gy matters, Spells matter, Flicker and +1/+1 counters are all archetypes with some, but very little support. All of these suffer a lot from a big cube size.
I think you are having too many balls in the air. The big (viable) archetypes which can easily be supported in bigger cubes are Swarm, Sacrifice (because it can be easily combined with Swarm) and Aura/Hexproof even though I can totally understand why you wouldn't want the last one.
I know, that no one really shares my opinion, but I don't make archetypes based on single colors in a vacuum or a specific combination of 2 colors, but only in the context of at least 3 colors, so if someones drafts that archetype they aren't railroaded into a specific color combination (e.g. spells matter is always UR).
I would focus on a few big, easily supportable archetypes and leave the rest more or less flexible. Burnspells are always a part of red, no matter if you call it an archetype or not, unless you are running stuff like Lava Spike or Lava Axe, which really can't go anywhere else.
Another note: I would put Kicker/Flashback cards into the guild sections. None of them are playable outside of their color pair and you are creating an imbalance between the color combinations.
i definitely would advocate for signets at least (but also for karoos in principle) because it just makes for a much better play experience being able to play a higher curve and therefore more powerful cards, as well as fixing.
its not fun to introduce colorscrew to a cube or force them into 3color green
"Evaluate my cube" is a very frequently asked request in this forum and usually doesn't get a lot of responses, because it's really hard and a lot of work to evaluate a big list of cards. You will get a lot more responses if you ask specific questions, where you are unsure, like X vs. Y. People tend to respond to quickly answered questions like that a lot quicker.
I will also not go in depth on every single card, but just give my thoughts on the philosophy. Trying to balance creative drafting and a heavy focus on archetypes, which railroad you in a specific direction is very hard and requires a lot of testing. Cube size also has it's upsides and downsides in that context. Especially small archetypes with little support suffer a lot form a bigger cube size. I don't think that "goodstuff" drafting is actually such a bad thing. In my personal experience people tend to surprise you if you don't set borders to their creativety and people have shown me synergies I wasn't aware of.
About your archetypes:
For an archetype isn't defined by an amount of cards with a specific keyword/mechanic printed on them, but by the cards that hold these together, aka the payoff. In this context I wouldn't call Fliers, Disruption or Burn archetypes. I mean ramp is just green's version of tempo.
Spells matter, Gy matters, Spells matter, Flicker and +1/+1 counters are all archetypes with some, but very little support. All of these suffer a lot from a big cube size.
I think you are having too many balls in the air. The big (viable) archetypes which can easily be supported in bigger cubes are Swarm, Sacrifice (because it can be easily combined with Swarm) and Aura/Hexproof even though I can totally understand why you wouldn't want the last one.
I know, that no one really shares my opinion, but I don't make archetypes based on single colors in a vacuum or a specific combination of 2 colors, but only in the context of at least 3 colors, so if someones drafts that archetype they aren't railroaded into a specific color combination (e.g. spells matter is always UR).
I would focus on a few big, easily supportable archetypes and leave the rest more or less flexible. Burnspells are always a part of red, no matter if you call it an archetype or not, unless you are running stuff like Lava Spike or Lava Axe, which really can't go anywhere else.
Another note: I would put Kicker/Flashback cards into the guild sections. None of them are playable outside of their color pair and you are creating an imbalance between the color combinations.
This all makes a lot of sense, especially the part about needing a lot of testing. I'm sure it will require some fine tuning and will vary based on the desires of the group, so I'm gonna finalize my list soon and then just start playing with it.
Regarding the "archetypes" in my cube, there was a reason I used the phrase "subthemes". "Graveyard Matters" or "+1/+1 Counters" were not really designated "archetypes" I had in mind for players to play. I.e. I was not expecting someone to draft "the counters deck" or "the graveyard deck". They were more like just small pockets of synergy that were there for the players to find, not something that I was really expecting them to build toward, in the way the more major themes like Sacrifice or Swarm worked. That said, I think I agree that there are too many narrow and not well-supported cards, I am probably just going to gut the "Spells Matter" theme as it is the one that is least likely to work with any other archetype or theme. I'll probably try building up GY Matters a little bit more as a result, but overall still keep things more loose.
Regarding the kicker and flashback cards I get what you're saying. I go back and forth on some of those, I could definitely see some W/x deck that was focused on swarming play Rally the Peasants for instance. Travel Prep might go in a Green deck if they had enough "counters matter" cards, even if they were not Green/White. On the other hand, the odds of that happening are low, much lower than them just being played in that specific color combo, so I see what you're saying. I'll probably adjust some of them, but maybe not all of them.
i definitely would advocate for signets at least (but also for karoos in principle) because it just makes for a much better play experience being able to play a higher curve and therefore more powerful cards, as well as fixing.
its not fun to introduce colorscrew to a cube or force them into 3color green
I get what you are saying, but in general I do not like non-Green colors having access to that much Ramp/Fixing, and I also do not like Cubes where every deck is 3+ color nonsense. Still, I'll probably pickup a set of them and try them out sometime with the group and at least see what people think. I can see the appeal.
i definitely would advocate for signets at least (but also for karoos in principle) because it just makes for a much better play experience being able to play a higher curve and therefore more powerful cards, as well as fixing.
its not fun to introduce colorscrew to a cube or force them into 3color green
I get what you are saying, but in general I do not like non-Green colors having access to that much Ramp/Fixing, and I also do not like Cubes where every deck is 3+ color nonsense. Still, I'll probably pickup a set of them and try them out sometime with the group and at least see what people think. I can see the appeal.
Well fixing wise it doesn't really make a difference if you have Guildgates or Karoos. The only difference there is that Karoos are simply stronger. I do run Signets and a decent amount of fixing and can tell from experience that most decks are still 2 colored, simply because it's much more consistent. Especially aggressive decks don't have an interest in Signets, 3rd colors or color splashes anyway, but I personally do really like the option to build e.g. a Grixis, Esper, Jeskai or Mardu (a personal favorite of mine) control deck. In the end you are simply opening the door to a bigger variance of deck, by offering decent mana bases. With pauper tapped lands a 3rd color is never free like e.g. in a cube with fetches and duals.
I dont like when players do xyz, is not a good attitude to build a cube in my book. but each to their own.
also what AL says. decks in paupercube dont tend to become multicolor, because there is no real good fixing, nor any real good payoffs either.
i run signets and duals and 3/8 decks end monocolored
I wanted to have more variety, so I rebuilt the cube from the ground up to be larger (450 instead of 360) and have archetypes that were more loose and could be combined in more ways. Our playgroup is smaller, usually 2-4, almost never more than 6, so I think a 450 cube should be big enough, though I am willing to go clear to 540 if we still find it too stale. A few notes:
Part of the whole purpose of this size increase was to increase variety, so I have deliberately avoided any “functional reprints”. So yes Savannah Lions is good, but I already have Elite Vanguard.
There are no signets or bounce lands. I don’t like non-green colors having that much easy access to that level of ramp/fixing.
I have avoided shadow creatures. I get that they’re powerful, I just don’t think being unblockable is that fun or interactive.
The ASFAN of removal is lower in this cube than in many. Not counting counterspells, tappers, or bounce, the ASFAN is at 2.43. That actually might be a bit too high for what I was aiming for, but I’m curious to hear other people’s opinions if that is too low.
Sometimes (especially in the Gold Section), I have avoided the “best card” in favor of something that signals an archetype a little more. Yes, Pillory of the Sleepless is better than Final Payment for Orzhov, but Final Payment signals an Aristocrats archetype, Pillory signals nothing.
The other part of the redesign was to make the archetypes more broad and less into two color pairs, this was both to allow the cube size to increase, and to allow for more variety in deck building so it didn’t feel like each color pair was the exact same when it got played. The broad themes of each color are:
White: Tokens/Swarm (subthemes of +1/+1 Counters, Fliers, and Blink/Flicker)
Blue: Spells Matter (subthemes of GY Matters, Fliers, and Blink/Flicker)
Black: Sacrifice (subthemes of GY Matters and Disruption)
Red: Burn (subthemes of Tokens/Swarm, Sacrifice, and Spells Matter)
Green: Ramp (subthemes of Tokens/Swarm and GY Matters)
There are also small amounts of “off-color” synergy sprinkled throughout the colors also, so there can be cross-pollination between archetypes outside of their typical color-pairing.
TLDR: Did a big redesign to increase the size of the cube and loosen up the archetypes, with the primary goal of adding variety to gameplay/draft, but not loosening it all so much that all decks become just “good stuff piles”. Let me know if anything looks off, out of place, or if I am missing some obviously good pieces. I’ve tried to put tags on cards to tell what archetype(s) they’re supposed to be supporting, with a generic “Good Stuff” tag if they are just in there for being strong or I like them.
When suggesting replacements I like any or all of the following:
Powerful cards: Obviously I want good, strong cards and so power is good. It is not the sole consideration though (Hymn to Tourach is bonkers for example, but that card is super unfun).
Cards with options or high amounts of decision making: Any card that is modal or has a lot of different ways it can be used is great.
Cards that can alter your pick orders somewhat, without being just total duds in the wrong deck: Something like Titanic Brawl makes you look twice at anything that makes a +1/+1 Counter, but you’ll happily play it in any Green deck where you want a removal spell anyway.
The cube: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/guq
Thanks in advance for any feedback!
I will also not go in depth on every single card, but just give my thoughts on the philosophy. Trying to balance creative drafting and a heavy focus on archetypes, which railroad you in a specific direction is very hard and requires a lot of testing. Cube size also has it's upsides and downsides in that context. Especially small archetypes with little support suffer a lot form a bigger cube size. I don't think that "goodstuff" drafting is actually such a bad thing. In my personal experience people tend to surprise you if you don't set borders to their creativety and people have shown me synergies I wasn't aware of.
About your archetypes:
For an archetype isn't defined by an amount of cards with a specific keyword/mechanic printed on them, but by the cards that hold these together, aka the payoff. In this context I wouldn't call Fliers, Disruption or Burn archetypes. I mean ramp is just green's version of tempo.
Spells matter, Gy matters, Spells matter, Flicker and +1/+1 counters are all archetypes with some, but very little support. All of these suffer a lot from a big cube size.
I think you are having too many balls in the air. The big (viable) archetypes which can easily be supported in bigger cubes are Swarm, Sacrifice (because it can be easily combined with Swarm) and Aura/Hexproof even though I can totally understand why you wouldn't want the last one.
I know, that no one really shares my opinion, but I don't make archetypes based on single colors in a vacuum or a specific combination of 2 colors, but only in the context of at least 3 colors, so if someones drafts that archetype they aren't railroaded into a specific color combination (e.g. spells matter is always UR).
I would focus on a few big, easily supportable archetypes and leave the rest more or less flexible. Burnspells are always a part of red, no matter if you call it an archetype or not, unless you are running stuff like Lava Spike or Lava Axe, which really can't go anywhere else.
Another note: I would put Kicker/Flashback cards into the guild sections. None of them are playable outside of their color pair and you are creating an imbalance between the color combinations.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
its not fun to introduce colorscrew to a cube or force them into 3color green
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
This all makes a lot of sense, especially the part about needing a lot of testing. I'm sure it will require some fine tuning and will vary based on the desires of the group, so I'm gonna finalize my list soon and then just start playing with it.
Regarding the "archetypes" in my cube, there was a reason I used the phrase "subthemes". "Graveyard Matters" or "+1/+1 Counters" were not really designated "archetypes" I had in mind for players to play. I.e. I was not expecting someone to draft "the counters deck" or "the graveyard deck". They were more like just small pockets of synergy that were there for the players to find, not something that I was really expecting them to build toward, in the way the more major themes like Sacrifice or Swarm worked. That said, I think I agree that there are too many narrow and not well-supported cards, I am probably just going to gut the "Spells Matter" theme as it is the one that is least likely to work with any other archetype or theme. I'll probably try building up GY Matters a little bit more as a result, but overall still keep things more loose.
Regarding the kicker and flashback cards I get what you're saying. I go back and forth on some of those, I could definitely see some W/x deck that was focused on swarming play Rally the Peasants for instance. Travel Prep might go in a Green deck if they had enough "counters matter" cards, even if they were not Green/White. On the other hand, the odds of that happening are low, much lower than them just being played in that specific color combo, so I see what you're saying. I'll probably adjust some of them, but maybe not all of them.
I get what you are saying, but in general I do not like non-Green colors having access to that much Ramp/Fixing, and I also do not like Cubes where every deck is 3+ color nonsense. Still, I'll probably pickup a set of them and try them out sometime with the group and at least see what people think. I can see the appeal.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
also what AL says. decks in paupercube dont tend to become multicolor, because there is no real good fixing, nor any real good payoffs either.
i run signets and duals and 3/8 decks end monocolored
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t