So, let's get this started. It seems like we'll be getting a 'Thriving' cycle of lands which give one basic colour and another colour specified when they ETB. That's really nice; I like the idea of such freeform fixing.
Not bad. If I wouldn't break the singleton rule for mana fixing lands I'd probably play these. And I still consider playing them instead of Evolving Wilds.
Worse in 3+ color decks than Vivid lands, but as a dual land they take almost no cube space. Probably better than trilands - how often do you really play a three or more color deck and find the appropriate triland for it during draft? Depends on the playstyle and cube, but in my cube the chance was tiny when I still ran trilands. Most often trilands are just duals that cover three (dual) color combinations and this one is a dual that covers four and thus takes less space for mostly the same effect.
It's not even obvious that they are worse than Vivids, as this can tap for two colours indefinitely. So unless you have a board of only swamps, Thriving Moor could be better than Vivid Marsh. I really like these, and I like that they take up little cube-space.
Probably better than trilands - how often do you really play a three or more color deck and find the appropriate triland for it during draft? Depends on the playstyle and cube, but in my cube the chance was tiny when I still ran trilands. Most often trilands are just duals that cover three (dual) color combinations and this one is a dual that covers four and thus takes less space for mostly the same effect.
I love trilands over duals because they cover 30% of guild combos. And you're right that these are better as they cover 40%. As long as you are playing the main color, grab one of these, and it fixes any second color.
And I still consider playing them instead of Evolving Wilds.
But I would never run them over Evolving Wilds/ Terramorphic Expanse . Those fix 100% of color combos - no matter what color you are missing, they can get it. There's also the minimal effect of deck thinning, though I admit a single fetch has little effect in that area.
But I would never run them over Evolving Wilds/ Terramorphic Expanse . Those fix 100% of color combos - no matter what color you are missing, they can get it. There's also the minimal effect of deck thinning, though I admit a single fetch has little effect in that area.
The problem is that you have to choose the color when you play Evolving Wilds. If you play it turn 1 (which is a great time to play an etb tapped land unless you play aggro, and in that case it's unlikely you even have such a land in your deck, at least in my cube) you often don't know what you need on turn 5. The new lands don't have that problem.
Also, like already mentioned I break the singleton rule for lands and I already run 4x Ash Barrens and will keep them for sure as they're much better than Wilds/Expanse and I don't really need 4 more lands with the same effect, only weaker.
If I would play with singleton rules I would have enough room to run all of them of course and I would agree with you that Wilds and Expanse are in no danger of being cut.
The problem is that you have to choose the color when you play Evolving Wilds. If you play it turn 1 (which is a great time to play an etb tapped land unless you play aggro, and in that case it's unlikely you even have such a land in your deck, at least in my cube) you often don't know what you need on turn 5. The new lands don't have that problem.
That's really only a problem if you kept a one land hand or have very high color requirements. I mean, if you're playing a dimir deck and have a swamp and an Evolving Wilds, you search for an Island. You base your turn one search on the other cards in your hand to make sure you can play them.
Also, like already mentioned I break the singleton rule for lands and I already run 4x Ash Barrens and will keep them for sure as they're much better than Wilds/Expanse and I don't really need 4 more lands with the same effect, only weaker.
If I would play with singleton rules I would have enough room to run all of them of course and I would agree with you that Wilds and Expanse are in no danger of being cut.
I'm a fan of Ash Barrens, too. Great card. I can see how singleton/non-singleton changes card evaluation. Sometimes I wish I ran more copies of some cards.
These are perfect for my 2 player peasant cube (200 cards). As FunkyDragon points out they fit into 40 % of 2 colour decks as opposed to 30 % for trilands.
That's really only a problem if you kept a one land hand or have very high color requirements. I mean, if you're playing a dimir deck and have a swamp and an Evolving Wilds, you search for an Island. You base your turn one search on the other cards in your hand to make sure you can play them.
The problem are CC cards later on. If you play dimir, turn Evolving Wilds into an island on your first turn because you already have a swamp in your hand and later you want to play Skinrender you can run into problems if all lands you draw afterwards are islands. That's not a problem with a true dual land. On the plus side Evolving Wilds helps with deck thinning (like you already mentioned) and it helps card that benefit from shuffle effects such as Sylvan Library (or Brainstorm, does anyone run that?). But both of these side effects are very minor and I'd play a true dual over Evolving Wilds in most dual color decks.
i like the thriving lands but like. do i need more lands? do i just add them and cut one card from each colour? i prob do just add them.
release the dogs looks good, but i don't think it's as good as visionary augmenter, and i don't think we need to double up on that effect; especially when we have some very good flying token producers.
Thriving Moor and company don't interest me. I think the tri-lands are better.
That was my initial reaction, too, but when I started looking deeper, I saw that the math doesn't support it most of the time, at least for my cube.
Most of my players go two-color. In that case, a random triland in a pack has a 30% chance of matching your deck, while the new lands have a 40% chance (their base color just needs to match one of yours).
If a player decides to splash a third color, there is a small chance (10%) for it to match all three colors. If it does match all three exactly, the triland is better; otherwise, they are equal.
The only time that the triland is overwhelmingly better is for the rare player who goes four or five color, and even then, you're stuck hoping the land matches the cards you have in hand and need to play now, while the new lands let you choose a color to match what is in your hand. If I have Rampant Growth in hand, would I rather Crumbling Necropolis or Thriving Moor? What if instead, I have Brainstorm and a non-blue triland? The new lands give you more control in the moment, even for four or five color, even if they lock in with less final options.
Visionary Augmenter also beats the dogs wrt blink/bounce, but I'm sure the card would hold its own in most lists.
I wonder whether these Thriving lands will be in high demand. I guess perhaps Constructed Pauper will want them to some extent, but is that enough to be significant? I guess the big impact is whether commander players have any interest in these, and to what extent jumpstart is opened. The latter could be a very small number what with this being a somewhat nieche play experience released in the middle of a pandemic..
I wonder whether these Thriving lands will be in high demand. I guess perhaps Constructed Pauper will want them to some extent, but is that enough to be significant? I guess the big impact is whether commander players have any interest in these, and to what extent jumpstart is opened. The latter could be a very small number what with this being a somewhat nieche play experience released in the middle of a pandemic..
Ash Barrens was close to $10 due to Pauper and Commander demand before it was reprinted. Thriving lands aren't as universally playable, but if Jumpstart doesn't get openend that much I'm sure they will go into the same direction. But I absolutely expect these to get printed more often from now on as they're much better for limited than the standard taplands.
While the Thriving lands are great design, they work well in Jumpstart because those decks are often two colors and they adapt to fix your mana. In a normal Limited format, they would easily lead to five-color mishmash *and* a ton of memory issues.
While the Thriving lands are great design, they work well in Jumpstart because those decks are often two colors and they adapt to fix your mana. In a normal Limited format, they would easily lead to five-color mishmash *and* a ton of memory issues.
Ah, ok. Though I don't really get the 'I build a five color deck because I have drafted two lands that can tap for a specific mana of my choice' idea. I wouldn't even play five colors in limited if I had 4x City of Brass at my disposal and with two of the new lands in my deck I'd be happy that I can play 2 colors with a reliable mana base or maybe, just maybe, 2.5 colors If don't go crazy with CC cards.
Ah, ok. Though I don't really get the 'I build a five color deck because I have drafted two lands that can tap for a specific mana of my choice' idea. I wouldn't even play five colors in limited if I had 4x City of Brass at my disposal and with two of the new lands in my deck I'd be happy that I can play 2 colors with a reliable mana base or maybe, just maybe, 2.5 colors If don't go crazy with CC cards.
Thrive lands are pretty nuts. They're pretty close to fetch+dual manabases in terms of fixing while only being 1 card.
Better than trilands outside of when they're triple on colour (and in 4-5 colour decks they might still be better since you try to avoid CC costs).
Unfortunately I have to cut a cycle of duals for them, which leaves me with 5 slots open with no good fixing replacements, but that's a small price to pay considering how much better they are than duals.
If you cut a full cycle of lands to make space for Thriving Lands you could add a card for each color (WUBRG) to complete the ten cards.
[[Brightmare]] I think is playable and fills the role for various Archetypes, from lifegain to blink and even... tempo? with the tap etb. Love this card.
I don't see how they would lead to memory issues in limited any more than they would in some other format. There is a 5 color theme in jumpstart apparently too.
Also the fact that these new lands are frequently *strictly better than terramorphic expanse is pretty nuts. (40% of the time for 2 color decks, way more for 3+).
*Other than delve, landfall, delirium (does anyone run these anymore?), and sylvan library type effects. Which adds up to like 7% of their value.
I'm iffy on cutting tri's for Thriving lands. Sure they slot into decks better but your As-Fan of duals goes down as well.
In case nobody spelled it out in so many words:
For any particular drafter, three of the tri lands will work perfectly for him while only two thriving lands do. But you're running seven completely dead cards for that drafter by including tris. The thriving lands shave that seven into a zero since the other three are all basically terramorphic expanses. Two great options and three perfectly reasonable ones is a good asfan.
So it appears that replacing the tri lands with the thriving lands will actually increase the amount of fixing each player has access to while also increasing the amount of picks per pack for everyone. Wild.
I'm iffy on cutting tri's for Thriving lands. Sure they slot into decks better but your As-Fan of duals goes down as well.
In case nobody spelled it out in so many words:
For any particular drafter, three of the tri lands will work perfectly for him while only two thriving lands do. But you're running seven completely dead cards for that drafter by including tris. The thriving lands shave that seven into a zero since the other three are all basically terramorphic expanses. Two great options and three perfectly reasonable ones is a good asfan.
So it appears that replacing the tri lands with the thriving lands will actually increase the amount of fixing each player has access to while also increasing the amount of picks per pack for everyone. Wild.
Sure but with a triland you're competing with 3 other drafters max for the land. With a Thriving you're competing against 8. Less to go around.
That's not inherently bad, but it's not inherently good either. It depends how easy you want fixing to be for your drafters to take.
Worse in 3+ color decks than Vivid lands, but as a dual land they take almost no cube space. Probably better than trilands - how often do you really play a three or more color deck and find the appropriate triland for it during draft? Depends on the playstyle and cube, but in my cube the chance was tiny when I still ran trilands. Most often trilands are just duals that cover three (dual) color combinations and this one is a dual that covers four and thus takes less space for mostly the same effect.
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The problem is that you have to choose the color when you play Evolving Wilds. If you play it turn 1 (which is a great time to play an etb tapped land unless you play aggro, and in that case it's unlikely you even have such a land in your deck, at least in my cube) you often don't know what you need on turn 5. The new lands don't have that problem.
Also, like already mentioned I break the singleton rule for lands and I already run 4x Ash Barrens and will keep them for sure as they're much better than Wilds/Expanse and I don't really need 4 more lands with the same effect, only weaker.
If I would play with singleton rules I would have enough room to run all of them of course and I would agree with you that Wilds and Expanse are in no danger of being cut.
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Oh wait those tap for three colors, nvm.
EDIT: I learned these are called trilands today, thanks to good ol' Daddy Phitt77.
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Just fyi, the lands you talk about are often called trilands, so that's what we already talk about.
The problem are CC cards later on. If you play dimir, turn Evolving Wilds into an island on your first turn because you already have a swamp in your hand and later you want to play Skinrender you can run into problems if all lands you draw afterwards are islands. That's not a problem with a true dual land. On the plus side Evolving Wilds helps with deck thinning (like you already mentioned) and it helps card that benefit from shuffle effects such as Sylvan Library (or Brainstorm, does anyone run that?). But both of these side effects are very minor and I'd play a true dual over Evolving Wilds in most dual color decks.
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Thriving Moor and company don't interest me. I think the tri-lands are better.
How good is 4 tokens for 4 mana? I imagine worse than 3 for 3 mana.
release the dogs looks good, but i don't think it's as good as visionary augmenter, and i don't think we need to double up on that effect; especially when we have some very good flying token producers.
Most of my players go two-color. In that case, a random triland in a pack has a 30% chance of matching your deck, while the new lands have a 40% chance (their base color just needs to match one of yours).
If a player decides to splash a third color, there is a small chance (10%) for it to match all three colors. If it does match all three exactly, the triland is better; otherwise, they are equal.
The only time that the triland is overwhelmingly better is for the rare player who goes four or five color, and even then, you're stuck hoping the land matches the cards you have in hand and need to play now, while the new lands let you choose a color to match what is in your hand. If I have Rampant Growth in hand, would I rather Crumbling Necropolis or Thriving Moor? What if instead, I have Brainstorm and a non-blue triland? The new lands give you more control in the moment, even for four or five color, even if they lock in with less final options.
I think I have to find room for them in my cube.
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I wonder whether these Thriving lands will be in high demand. I guess perhaps Constructed Pauper will want them to some extent, but is that enough to be significant? I guess the big impact is whether commander players have any interest in these, and to what extent jumpstart is opened. The latter could be a very small number what with this being a somewhat nieche play experience released in the middle of a pandemic..
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Ash Barrens was close to $10 due to Pauper and Commander demand before it was reprinted. Thriving lands aren't as universally playable, but if Jumpstart doesn't get openend that much I'm sure they will go into the same direction. But I absolutely expect these to get printed more often from now on as they're much better for limited than the standard taplands.
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Ah, ok. Though I don't really get the 'I build a five color deck because I have drafted two lands that can tap for a specific mana of my choice' idea. I wouldn't even play five colors in limited if I had 4x City of Brass at my disposal and with two of the new lands in my deck I'd be happy that I can play 2 colors with a reliable mana base or maybe, just maybe, 2.5 colors If don't go crazy with CC cards.
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Better than trilands outside of when they're triple on colour (and in 4-5 colour decks they might still be better since you try to avoid CC costs).
Unfortunately I have to cut a cycle of duals for them, which leaves me with 5 slots open with no good fixing replacements, but that's a small price to pay considering how much better they are than duals.
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[[Brightmare]] I think is playable and fills the role for various Archetypes, from lifegain to blink and even... tempo? with the tap etb. Love this card.
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Brightmare looks awesome. It's the kind of "life gain matters" card that doesn't gimp aggro by going off every turn the way lifelinkers do.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
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I don't see how they would lead to memory issues in limited any more than they would in some other format. There is a 5 color theme in jumpstart apparently too.
Also the fact that these new lands are frequently *strictly better than terramorphic expanse is pretty nuts. (40% of the time for 2 color decks, way more for 3+).
*Other than delve, landfall, delirium (does anyone run these anymore?), and sylvan library type effects. Which adds up to like 7% of their value.
In case nobody spelled it out in so many words:
For any particular drafter, three of the tri lands will work perfectly for him while only two thriving lands do. But you're running seven completely dead cards for that drafter by including tris. The thriving lands shave that seven into a zero since the other three are all basically terramorphic expanses. Two great options and three perfectly reasonable ones is a good asfan.
So it appears that replacing the tri lands with the thriving lands will actually increase the amount of fixing each player has access to while also increasing the amount of picks per pack for everyone. Wild.
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Sure but with a triland you're competing with 3 other drafters max for the land. With a Thriving you're competing against 8. Less to go around.
That's not inherently bad, but it's not inherently good either. It depends how easy you want fixing to be for your drafters to take.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
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