Completely missed the instant speed on Village Rites. It's a great card! A one mana combat trick or a way to turn your worst creature into card draw isn't bad. Plus obviously the synergy with sacrifice decks. Since I run both Night's Whisper and Read the Bones I will replace one of them.
I don't think Warden of the Woods compares favourably to Scaled Behemoth.[...]
From my experience pure aggro decks just run into and past Scaled Behemoth and you can't fight back with it. Usually it's turn 4 or later before you can cast him and at that point aggro decks can already afford to lose creatures. The problem is that you can't fight back to force aggro to hold back some blockers as well, because you're already on life support and can't afford to lose your most important blocker for a turn, so all you get is a 6 mana wall that can't even block flyers. Vigilance obviously makes a world of difference in that situation.
Green ramp decks don't lack creatures so replacing the creature with an equal one (or two mediocre ones) is not that much of a problem if you draw two cards + another one at the beginning of the next turn since you keep your mana advantage. There aren't a lot of removal spells that can kill a 7 toughness creature anyway, especially not in aggro.
The last thing a control deck wants is to give you card advantage. Scaled Behemoth is admittedly probably even better against control, but Warden is close behind.
Scaled Behemoth is certainly better in some situations, but I don't think it's better in more than 50% of situations. And Warden is a lot more fun to play with from my pov.
Do people still play dedicated creature based wincons in control? I've always found that they aren't enough faster than nickle and diming with random value dudes to justify including.
A true wincon like Striped Riverwinder is much more reliable than nickle and diming with the few utility creatures you may have in your deck. It's not only about being faster, it's about reliability. It may work without one, but it's far easier for your opponent to deal with 3-4 small utility creatures than it is to deal with a large hexproof creature. And the one mana cycling makes it a card with a very low deckbuilding cost. Unfortunately neither Tidal Whale nor Spiked Megalodon come close to Striped Riverwinder since they either lack the resilience or the low deckbuilding cost.
I generally like to keep permanent hexproof to a minimum, and I'd even prefer other forms of resilience (like Jetting Glasskite, Warden of the Woods, Pelakka Wurm) that didn't shut down interactivity as much. Especially with our lack of good board wipes, generally only sacrifice effects work.
I'm considering replacing Skysnare Spider with Warden of the Woods. The Warden looks better at first glance but the spider's reach has saved me in a few games.
Some very awesome +1/+1 counter support revealed today!
Conclave Mentor is exactly the type of card I have always been hoping to get for this deck. A really solid ability coming in on a body that is not bad, a 2/2 for 2 that gains you life on death. And we also got...
Wildwood Scourge, a strictly better Ivy Elemental that really synergizes with +1/+1 counter cards. There are so many cards that this goes well with.
I think given these cards I am finally convinced enough to really commit to making GWr have a +1/+1 counter theme. I will be making my 3 selesnya cards: Conclave Mentor Pledge of Unity - Surprisingly great card Good-fortune Unicorn
Those three are all really solid cards that heavily support the +1/+1 counter deck. The deck still has the issue of being a bit susceptible to removal unfortunately, but I think there is finally enough reason to play the deck.
Aside from these cards, I haven't been excited about too much from this set.
The 2/2 red prowess guy will be replacing goblin cratermaker, I will be finding a spot for Quiron Dryad, I may replace Anticipate with Tidal Whale, and I may find a spot for Vryn Wingmare, which is okay but gets absolutely stonewalled by 1/1 fliers and doesn't have the same strength in peasant where it doesn't slow down wraths.
I'm a fan of Heartfire Immolator. Bluffing an attack with it has a really low cost since you can just sac it if they call it. I can't really imagine a red deck that doesn't want to play it.
////
If aggro is just running past Scaled Behemoth then getting Warden of the Woods removed is even more of a nightmare scenario; 7 toughness beats G removal and burn, but not UWB removal or Threaten and can't block effects. If your opponent can't interact with it then obviously Warden is significantly better, but even the most aggressive decks have stuff like Ahn-Crop Crasher, Goblin Heelcutter, or Frenzied Fugue which are all devastating against a 6 drop with no immediate impact, let alone hard removal. You do get 2 cards, but you're unlikely be out of plays at that point even without them.
The last thing a control deck wants is to give you card advantage.
I'd say one of the first things a control deck is willing to give you is CA. Doom Blade + Concentrate (just to have a nice example) is mana and card neutral against Warden, and the Concentrate can be delayed if the control deck is behind in tempo. Control can generally also turn tempo into CA with sweepers or bouncing value creatures with Into the Roil/Repulse as well as typical control cards just generating more CA than other decks to make up any deficit.
////
A true wincon like Striped Riverwinder is much more reliable than nickle and diming with the few utility creatures you may have in your deck. It's not only about being faster, it's about reliability...
...But winning through combat damage is not *reliant* on specific cards, and a resilient giant beater can stabilise your board and be effectively impossible to remove to give you inevitability.
But control decks should normally have inevitability by default just by virtue of being a control deck, no? A hexproof 5/5 isn't going to give you inevitability if your opponent has a sizable board and can draw and land threats. Most of the cards that would go over top of a control deck (Shrines, Curses, Goblin Bombardment, Goblin Trenches, looping Baloth Null, etc.) aren't beaten by a 5/5 either. Waker of Waves makes more sense to me to run as a wincon (if you don't want to rely on value creatures and want a low deckbuilding cost) in control than Striped Riverwinder since it doesn't require your opponent to have minimal board presence to attack and it can actually go above threats to your inevitability. Not having resilience doesn't seem terribly problematic to me (outside of relying on it to stabilize like with Warden) considering bounce, counterspells, and reanimation all have low deckbuilding costs in control.
stuff like Ahn-Crop Crasher, Goblin Heelcutter, or Frenzied Fugue which are all devastating against a 6 drop with no immediate impact, let alone hard removal. You do get 2 cards, but you're unlikely be out of plays at that point even without them.
Ahn-Crop Crasher or, even worse, Goblin Heelcutter are absolutely terrible against Warden unless you win the next turn, in which case Scaled Behemoth would hardly make a difference. And if you don't win disabling Warden in exchange for two cards would be crazy, though with Goblin Heelcutter the worst case would be that you have no choice.
Running past a creature is far easier than killing it with unconditional removal, which is very limited in most cubes. If you run into Warden he can still attack back and deal 5 damage each time. If you run into Behemoth he can't do anything but block.
Control decks don't gain anything if they kill the Warden and you opponent casts an Arborback Stomper and a Nest Invader the next turn. And of course you can't compare 6 mana in a control deck with 6 mana in a ramp deck. Green decks benefit a lot more from card draw than pretty much any other deck as they need to use their excess mana (which is a big part of the reason why I would never cut Harmonize, but would never consider Concentrate). You're making a very bad trade in most situations if you Doom Blade Warden.
But control decks should normally have inevitability by default just by virtue of being a control deck, no?
Sure, in an ideal world a control deck will control the game 100%, your hand will be full of counterspells and removal while your opponent has an empty board and only a Jackal Pup left in his hand. And then you slowly ping him down to zero health turn after turn. But in a non-ideal world that doesn't happen very often, especially not if you have to protect your utility creatures because they're your only win condition. The reality most often is that control decks have to fight for board control and their life total until the game ends, one way or another.
If you successfully cast a Striped Riverwinder when your opponent is weakened he is done, even if he has some board presence. If you deal 1-2 points of damage per turn with your little creatures your opponent gets 5-10 additional turns to gain board advantage and/or finish you off by other means. If you can't afford to cast Riverwinder you cycle him away, so there is hardly any cost when you add him to your deck.
And of course resilience is important as on one hand you don't always have counterspells to protect your creature and, more importantly, it takes ages until you can actually cast a 7 mana creature and still have mana left to cast a counterspell to protect it. That's easily a difference of 5 turns or more between casting the creature only and being able to protect it on top of it. And when you play a deck that has almost no creature targets and that plays the only creature truly worth removing after 10+ turns it's much more likely that your opponent has removal ready than for example against a ramp that plays tons of creatures and casts them as early as possible.
In my experience 6 drops generally come down the turn before aggro sets up a kill regardless of archetype (t4 on the play being the one exception). If Warden lets through an alpha that Behemoth would eat a creature with that's the difference between winning and losing. Even if you have some leeway for whatever reason that prevents aggro from setting up a kill, getting Warden Pathed or Doom Bladed (or Threatened, as I previously mentioned) probably loses the game against any sizable pressure. Unconditional removal is limited, but not so limited you can't get 2-3 copies if you're looking for it.
Getting Warden Doom Bladed is essentially the same as just casting a Harmonize. As good as Harmonize is, it's not going to win you the game against control. It's not even in the same ballpark as Behemoth, which requires basically full control of the game to beat.
I think we're just playing very different control decks.
Tolarian Kraken: I like the effect, especially with all the new additions that care about drawing cards, but I think the card is too expensive. Falconer Adept: Nice effect, but the a 2/3 vanilla for 4 is just bad. Watcher of the Spheres: This is a very strong card especially if you support UW flyers. Comes down early as a 2/2 which makes the cost reduction ability very relevant. Also nice with Lingering Souls, Migratory Route, Battle Screech etc..
I am not sure about the Conclave Mentor. I really like build-around / payoff cards that are good on their own. Can the Mentor be good in a cube that doesnt specifically support the +1/+1 archetype but only runs good cards that coincidentally give +1/+1 counters such as the Good-Fortune Unicorn?
dude wtf, watcher of the spheres is super efficient??? what a bear holy moly.
liliana's devotee looks like insane value. getting a 3/2 pretty regularly looks great, and there's plenty of zombie synergy to be had.
conclave mentor looks good, it feels like counters finally got there this set? there's just been so much support lately.
i love the precedent that vryn wingmare sets for peasant, and also think it's very much cubeable based on uniqueness alone.
man, one problem with this set is that i feel like i need to completely disassemble my cube and start again. there's just so many archetypes that work now, it's crazy.
Liliana's Devotee is definitely a card I like and for which I think it'd be interesting to try and find space. I don't think said slot is too crowded, either.
dude wtf, watcher of the spheres is super efficient??? what a bear holy moly.
Everything okay with you? I never said it is super efficient, but a 2/2 flyer for 2 isnt that bad as a baseline in my books. I think I like my current UW options better, but nevertheless it is a card to consider dependent on your cube dependent on your configuration.
man, one problem with this set is that i feel like i need to completely disassemble my cube and start again. there's just so many archetypes that work now, it's crazy.
That is a problem I like to have ;-). But looking at your cube I think you already support most of the regular archetypes.
UW Flyers has come together nicely recently. Watcher of the Spheres is an auto-include for me! Only thing left the archetype needs is a mono-white flying matters card that is actually good.
I am sure I wasnt talking to you.
You have anything meaningful to add to the conversation?
Anyhow, I totally missed Lilianas Devotee and will be sure testing him. Will be interesting to see whether he can be valuable outside of a BW or BR sacrifice deck.
Also, a lot of lifegain matters card in the set but I guess we are far away from an archetype in this regard?
Lifegain matters is always going to be an archetype that I abstain from adding to cube, no matter how much support it gets. It is intrinsically much better against certain decks where gaining life in itself is a reward (i.e aggressive strategies). I don't like to have a match up that is so polarizing that it feels hopeless.
Liliana's Devotee is probably strong enough that the awkwardness around morbid isn't a big deal.
Griffin Aerie and Silversmote Ghoul is a ton of support for lifegain, and it might even be competitive now (though incredibly parasitic). Even outside of a dedicated lifegain shell Silversmote Ghoul might honestly be a strong card as it's above rate if you can get it back once, which isn't overly difficult if you make minor deckbuilding considerations.
Lifegain matters is always going to be an archetype that I abstain from adding to cube, no matter how much support it gets. It is intrinsically much better against certain decks where gaining life in itself is a reward (i.e aggressive strategies). I don't like to have a match up that is so polarizing that it feels hopeless.
Good point
Even outside of a dedicated lifegain shell Silversmote Ghoul might honestly be a strong card as it's above rate if you can get it back once, which isn't overly difficult if you make minor deckbuilding considerations.
I just browsed through my list and maybe you are right. In white you have some lifegain and/or lifelink (eternalized Sunscourge Champion, Seeker of the Way with one prowess trigger). In black you also have your generic lifelink creatures plus Blood Artist et al.. As you said, even bringing him back once is already above average.
With the original Honden cycle, the blavk one was the worst of them, not really useful when the opponent has an empty hand. The new black Sanctum is cheaper and a good finisher while keeping you alive. Also decent if you have a lifegain archetype.
The green one is nice to help you cast more Shrines, and who knows, even as a Manalith could help to ramp your big spells if you are in green.
The blue one is one mana cheaper to make a similar effect with the blue Honden At first you will loot one card, but as more Shrines you cast you will draw more cards, even having to discard one. Could be decent for UB graveyard archetypes.
The red and white Sanctums don't look interesting, at least for me.
I'd say the Red one is pretty decent; it's basically a creature removal version of Molten Vortex at Peasant. Now, perhaps it's a bit over-costed relative to that baseline and needs other Shrines to be efficient but repeated (instant speed) removal is still repeated removal. As part of an archetype (which I am considering since I always liked the Shrines in principle), I'd say it's pretty nice since it still does *something* other than just upping your Shrine count by itself, unlike the white one which has a super over-costed effect on its own or even with one or two other shrines.
Under consideration: Basri's Acolyte: In many ways, comparable to Relief Captain. Daybreak Charger: Unlike most creatures with this effect, decent baseline body with ability to force through damage or trades quickly; some synergy with haste enablers. Seasoned Hallowblade: Self-protection with no mana cost is still nice on an aggressive body. Vryn Wingmare: It's a good downshift and a pretty strong effect, especially together with things like Judge's Familiar. Sanctum of Calm Waters: I'd be interested in testing a Shrine archetype as long as 2 at a time is decent value. Shipwreck Dowser: By far the most efficient version of this effect in terms of the associated body. Spined Megalodon: It's exactly the sort of card I think makes for a good finisher in control or reanimator, and blue is the main reanimator supporting colour. Liliana's Devotee: Interesting, potentially very strong effect. Also triggers for opponents' creatures, after all. Playable base body. Sanctum of Stone Fangs: Cheapest playworthy shrine if I use the archetype. Silversmote Ghoul: Even with incidental life gain, it's a lot of value; might end up comparable to Undead Gladiator, though. Village Rites: In response to removal or used on a chumper, very good value for the mana. Heartfire Immolator: Talk about efficiency. Sanctum of Shattered Heights: At one other shrine in play, I think this would already get pretty nasty. Fungal Rebirth: Recycling when you get board presence, too, is nice. Llanowar Visionary: It's a very solid concept that fills a role. Sanctum of Fruitful Harvest: The baseline is 5C fixing for 3; the ceiling with other shrines is pretty high.
Some interest: Falconer Adept: Not great for the cost but repeatable token generation. Makeshift Battalion: Not bad; just a tight slot with more interesting options. Siege Striker: I like double strike but this seems questionable. Warded Battlements: I quite like the idea; though, very risky in terms of blow-outs. Keen Glidemaster: Have we had this effect at this rate? Seems like it has potential. Carrion Grub: This can get crazy in reanimator as an alternative win-con; it's not too hard to get a decent rate out of it in general. Crypt Lurker: Handy support card; just looting is not bad at all in black. Goremand: That *name*; besides, its drawback is an extra cost on *cast*, not ETB, and it's a pretty good finisher as long as you have some extra creature to upgrade (or reanimate it). Masked Blackguard: Flash in black is still pretty nice, even if this might not be quite good enough. Bolt Hound: Boring but overall solid. Bone Pit Brute: Unlikely but I still like that this is the current baseline for big red at common. Chandra's Pyreling: Very easy to set up with stuff like pingers or attack triggers; possibly worth a look with Chandra's Spitfire. Kinetic Augur: Decent ETB anyway; could well end up being good. Unleash Fury: Probably not but it's an interesting version of the 'double effectiveness' effect instead of giving double strike. Burlfist Oak: This gets *nasty* if you have reliable ways to get extra draws. Decent baseline, too. Experimental Overload: Another fun way to do this effect, even triggers spellslinger cards itself when cast.
Maybes: Basri's Acolyte Basri's Solidarity - Fairly efficient permanent pump, and supports a +1/+1 counter theme. Sorcery speed might kill it though Swift Response - Simple and fairly efficient de-powered removal. Mistral Singer - Supports flyers and spellslinger but maybe a touch weak. Spined Megalodon - Big resilient beater, but it has to compete with Striped Riverwinder Waker of Waves - Super cycling is great, but it lacks the resilience on board. Also competing with Striped Riverwinder Alchemist's Gift - Nice flexibility for just 1 mana, but probably not worth a card Liliana's Devotee - Decent support for the BW sacrifice deck Malefic Scythe - It becomes good with just 1 death trigger. With 2+ it becomes great. Village Rites - Nice and efficient, but not sure if it edges out the other black draw spells Hobblefiend - One of the better Carrion Feeder type cards. Nice that it has evasion too and has a reasonable floor. Not sure if I want this in red though. Llanowar Visionary - Efficient but boring. Pridemalkin - Decent +1/+1 Counter lord, but a bit weak by itself. Experimental Overload - Seems good with just 3 instants/sorceries in graveyard.
From my experience pure aggro decks just run into and past Scaled Behemoth and you can't fight back with it. Usually it's turn 4 or later before you can cast him and at that point aggro decks can already afford to lose creatures. The problem is that you can't fight back to force aggro to hold back some blockers as well, because you're already on life support and can't afford to lose your most important blocker for a turn, so all you get is a 6 mana wall that can't even block flyers. Vigilance obviously makes a world of difference in that situation.
Green ramp decks don't lack creatures so replacing the creature with an equal one (or two mediocre ones) is not that much of a problem if you draw two cards + another one at the beginning of the next turn since you keep your mana advantage. There aren't a lot of removal spells that can kill a 7 toughness creature anyway, especially not in aggro.
The last thing a control deck wants is to give you card advantage. Scaled Behemoth is admittedly probably even better against control, but Warden is close behind.
Scaled Behemoth is certainly better in some situations, but I don't think it's better in more than 50% of situations. And Warden is a lot more fun to play with from my pov.
A true wincon like Striped Riverwinder is much more reliable than nickle and diming with the few utility creatures you may have in your deck. It's not only about being faster, it's about reliability. It may work without one, but it's far easier for your opponent to deal with 3-4 small utility creatures than it is to deal with a large hexproof creature. And the one mana cycling makes it a card with a very low deckbuilding cost. Unfortunately neither Tidal Whale nor Spiked Megalodon come close to Striped Riverwinder since they either lack the resilience or the low deckbuilding cost.
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
Oh good point about village rites, hmm I might give it a go.
I have jetting glasskite as my blue finisher or ominous seas when I get to try it.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I'm considering replacing Skysnare Spider with Warden of the Woods. The Warden looks better at first glance but the spider's reach has saved me in a few games.
Conclave Mentor is exactly the type of card I have always been hoping to get for this deck. A really solid ability coming in on a body that is not bad, a 2/2 for 2 that gains you life on death. And we also got...
Wildwood Scourge, a strictly better Ivy Elemental that really synergizes with +1/+1 counter cards. There are so many cards that this goes well with.
I think given these cards I am finally convinced enough to really commit to making GWr have a +1/+1 counter theme. I will be making my 3 selesnya cards:
Conclave Mentor
Pledge of Unity - Surprisingly great card
Good-fortune Unicorn
Those three are all really solid cards that heavily support the +1/+1 counter deck. The deck still has the issue of being a bit susceptible to removal unfortunately, but I think there is finally enough reason to play the deck.
Aside from these cards, I haven't been excited about too much from this set.
The 2/2 red prowess guy will be replacing goblin cratermaker, I will be finding a spot for Quiron Dryad, I may replace Anticipate with Tidal Whale, and I may find a spot for Vryn Wingmare, which is okay but gets absolutely stonewalled by 1/1 fliers and doesn't have the same strength in peasant where it doesn't slow down wraths.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
////
If aggro is just running past Scaled Behemoth then getting Warden of the Woods removed is even more of a nightmare scenario; 7 toughness beats G removal and burn, but not UWB removal or Threaten and can't block effects. If your opponent can't interact with it then obviously Warden is significantly better, but even the most aggressive decks have stuff like Ahn-Crop Crasher, Goblin Heelcutter, or Frenzied Fugue which are all devastating against a 6 drop with no immediate impact, let alone hard removal. You do get 2 cards, but you're unlikely be out of plays at that point even without them. I'd say one of the first things a control deck is willing to give you is CA. Doom Blade + Concentrate (just to have a nice example) is mana and card neutral against Warden, and the Concentrate can be delayed if the control deck is behind in tempo. Control can generally also turn tempo into CA with sweepers or bouncing value creatures with Into the Roil/Repulse as well as typical control cards just generating more CA than other decks to make up any deficit.
//// But control decks should normally have inevitability by default just by virtue of being a control deck, no? A hexproof 5/5 isn't going to give you inevitability if your opponent has a sizable board and can draw and land threats. Most of the cards that would go over top of a control deck (Shrines, Curses, Goblin Bombardment, Goblin Trenches, looping Baloth Null, etc.) aren't beaten by a 5/5 either. Waker of Waves makes more sense to me to run as a wincon (if you don't want to rely on value creatures and want a low deckbuilding cost) in control than Striped Riverwinder since it doesn't require your opponent to have minimal board presence to attack and it can actually go above threats to your inevitability. Not having resilience doesn't seem terribly problematic to me (outside of relying on it to stabilize like with Warden) considering bounce, counterspells, and reanimation all have low deckbuilding costs in control.
Ahn-Crop Crasher or, even worse, Goblin Heelcutter are absolutely terrible against Warden unless you win the next turn, in which case Scaled Behemoth would hardly make a difference. And if you don't win disabling Warden in exchange for two cards would be crazy, though with Goblin Heelcutter the worst case would be that you have no choice.
Running past a creature is far easier than killing it with unconditional removal, which is very limited in most cubes. If you run into Warden he can still attack back and deal 5 damage each time. If you run into Behemoth he can't do anything but block.
Control decks don't gain anything if they kill the Warden and you opponent casts an Arborback Stomper and a Nest Invader the next turn. And of course you can't compare 6 mana in a control deck with 6 mana in a ramp deck. Green decks benefit a lot more from card draw than pretty much any other deck as they need to use their excess mana (which is a big part of the reason why I would never cut Harmonize, but would never consider Concentrate). You're making a very bad trade in most situations if you Doom Blade Warden.
Sure, in an ideal world a control deck will control the game 100%, your hand will be full of counterspells and removal while your opponent has an empty board and only a Jackal Pup left in his hand. And then you slowly ping him down to zero health turn after turn. But in a non-ideal world that doesn't happen very often, especially not if you have to protect your utility creatures because they're your only win condition. The reality most often is that control decks have to fight for board control and their life total until the game ends, one way or another.
If you successfully cast a Striped Riverwinder when your opponent is weakened he is done, even if he has some board presence. If you deal 1-2 points of damage per turn with your little creatures your opponent gets 5-10 additional turns to gain board advantage and/or finish you off by other means. If you can't afford to cast Riverwinder you cycle him away, so there is hardly any cost when you add him to your deck.
And of course resilience is important as on one hand you don't always have counterspells to protect your creature and, more importantly, it takes ages until you can actually cast a 7 mana creature and still have mana left to cast a counterspell to protect it. That's easily a difference of 5 turns or more between casting the creature only and being able to protect it on top of it. And when you play a deck that has almost no creature targets and that plays the only creature truly worth removing after 10+ turns it's much more likely that your opponent has removal ready than for example against a ramp that plays tons of creatures and casts them as early as possible.
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
Getting Warden Doom Bladed is essentially the same as just casting a Harmonize. As good as Harmonize is, it's not going to win you the game against control. It's not even in the same ballpark as Behemoth, which requires basically full control of the game to beat.
I think we're just playing very different control decks.
Falconer Adept: Nice effect, but the a 2/3 vanilla for 4 is just bad.
Watcher of the Spheres: This is a very strong card especially if you support UW flyers. Comes down early as a 2/2 which makes the cost reduction ability very relevant. Also nice with Lingering Souls, Migratory Route, Battle Screech etc..
I am not sure about the Conclave Mentor. I really like build-around / payoff cards that are good on their own. Can the Mentor be good in a cube that doesnt specifically support the +1/+1 archetype but only runs good cards that coincidentally give +1/+1 counters such as the Good-Fortune Unicorn?
My Peasant Cube: @ mtgsalvation---- @ cubecobra
liliana's devotee looks like insane value. getting a 3/2 pretty regularly looks great, and there's plenty of zombie synergy to be had.
conclave mentor looks good, it feels like counters finally got there this set? there's just been so much support lately.
i love the precedent that vryn wingmare sets for peasant, and also think it's very much cubeable based on uniqueness alone.
man, one problem with this set is that i feel like i need to completely disassemble my cube and start again. there's just so many archetypes that work now, it's crazy.
Everything okay with you? I never said it is super efficient, but a 2/2 flyer for 2 isnt that bad as a baseline in my books. I think I like my current UW options better, but nevertheless it is a card to consider dependent on your cube dependent on your configuration.
That is a problem I like to have ;-). But looking at your cube I think you already support most of the regular archetypes.
My Peasant Cube: @ mtgsalvation---- @ cubecobra
Good-fortune unicorn and Conclave Mentor
Empyrean Eagle and Watcher of the Spheres
I don't see a reason to have more than one of these pair.
Heartfire Immolator is a slam dunk
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
If it's the main archetype for the color pair, then I think it makes sense to support it with many cards.
I've got Jubilant Skybonder, Thunderclap Wyvern, Warden of Evos Isle, Sprite Noble, and Favorable Winds all for this archetype. And now this new card.
You have anything meaningful to add to the conversation?
Anyhow, I totally missed Lilianas Devotee and will be sure testing him. Will be interesting to see whether he can be valuable outside of a BW or BR sacrifice deck.
Also, a lot of lifegain matters card in the set but I guess we are far away from an archetype in this regard?
My Peasant Cube: @ mtgsalvation---- @ cubecobra
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
Liliana's Devotee is probably strong enough that the awkwardness around morbid isn't a big deal.
Griffin Aerie and Silversmote Ghoul is a ton of support for lifegain, and it might even be competitive now (though incredibly parasitic). Even outside of a dedicated lifegain shell Silversmote Ghoul might honestly be a strong card as it's above rate if you can get it back once, which isn't overly difficult if you make minor deckbuilding considerations.
Good point
I just browsed through my list and maybe you are right. In white you have some lifegain and/or lifelink (eternalized Sunscourge Champion, Seeker of the Way with one prowess trigger). In black you also have your generic lifelink creatures plus Blood Artist et al.. As you said, even bringing him back once is already above average.
My Peasant Cube: @ mtgsalvation---- @ cubecobra
I think there are only two, maybe three that are worthy. Green (Sanctum of Fruitful Harvest), Black (Sanctum of Stone Fangs) and probably Blue (Sanctum of Calm Waters).
With the original Honden cycle, the blavk one was the worst of them, not really useful when the opponent has an empty hand. The new black Sanctum is cheaper and a good finisher while keeping you alive. Also decent if you have a lifegain archetype.
The green one is nice to help you cast more Shrines, and who knows, even as a Manalith could help to ramp your big spells if you are in green.
The blue one is one mana cheaper to make a similar effect with the blue Honden At first you will loot one card, but as more Shrines you cast you will draw more cards, even having to discard one. Could be decent for UB graveyard archetypes.
The red and white Sanctums don't look interesting, at least for me.
My Omniscience Draft Cube[/b]
My Commander Cube
My Pai Gow Cube
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Under consideration:
Basri's Acolyte: In many ways, comparable to Relief Captain.
Daybreak Charger: Unlike most creatures with this effect, decent baseline body with ability to force through damage or trades quickly; some synergy with haste enablers.
Seasoned Hallowblade: Self-protection with no mana cost is still nice on an aggressive body.
Vryn Wingmare: It's a good downshift and a pretty strong effect, especially together with things like Judge's Familiar.
Sanctum of Calm Waters: I'd be interested in testing a Shrine archetype as long as 2 at a time is decent value.
Shipwreck Dowser: By far the most efficient version of this effect in terms of the associated body.
Spined Megalodon: It's exactly the sort of card I think makes for a good finisher in control or reanimator, and blue is the main reanimator supporting colour.
Liliana's Devotee: Interesting, potentially very strong effect. Also triggers for opponents' creatures, after all. Playable base body.
Sanctum of Stone Fangs: Cheapest playworthy shrine if I use the archetype.
Silversmote Ghoul: Even with incidental life gain, it's a lot of value; might end up comparable to Undead Gladiator, though.
Village Rites: In response to removal or used on a chumper, very good value for the mana.
Heartfire Immolator: Talk about efficiency.
Sanctum of Shattered Heights: At one other shrine in play, I think this would already get pretty nasty.
Fungal Rebirth: Recycling when you get board presence, too, is nice.
Llanowar Visionary: It's a very solid concept that fills a role.
Sanctum of Fruitful Harvest: The baseline is 5C fixing for 3; the ceiling with other shrines is pretty high.
Some interest:
Falconer Adept: Not great for the cost but repeatable token generation.
Makeshift Battalion: Not bad; just a tight slot with more interesting options.
Siege Striker: I like double strike but this seems questionable.
Warded Battlements: I quite like the idea; though, very risky in terms of blow-outs.
Keen Glidemaster: Have we had this effect at this rate? Seems like it has potential.
Carrion Grub: This can get crazy in reanimator as an alternative win-con; it's not too hard to get a decent rate out of it in general.
Crypt Lurker: Handy support card; just looting is not bad at all in black.
Goremand: That *name*; besides, its drawback is an extra cost on *cast*, not ETB, and it's a pretty good finisher as long as you have some extra creature to upgrade (or reanimate it).
Masked Blackguard: Flash in black is still pretty nice, even if this might not be quite good enough.
Bolt Hound: Boring but overall solid.
Bone Pit Brute: Unlikely but I still like that this is the current baseline for big red at common.
Chandra's Pyreling: Very easy to set up with stuff like pingers or attack triggers; possibly worth a look with Chandra's Spitfire.
Kinetic Augur: Decent ETB anyway; could well end up being good.
Unleash Fury: Probably not but it's an interesting version of the 'double effectiveness' effect instead of giving double strike.
Burlfist Oak: This gets *nasty* if you have reliable ways to get extra draws. Decent baseline, too.
Experimental Overload: Another fun way to do this effect, even triggers spellslinger cards itself when cast.
Shipwreck Dowser - Probably best version of the effect yet. Will replace Vexing Scuttler
Bolt Hound - Nice support for go-wide aggro, but it is a bit fragile. Probably replacing Breakneck Rider
Heartfire Immolator - Best card of the set IMO. Holding up mana to bluff or to cast a spell will make things very hard on your opponent.
Warden of the Woods - Strong on defense, and good value in the face of removal.
Watcher of the Spheres - Great flyers payoff. Replacing Aven Wind Guide
Maybes:
Basri's Acolyte
Basri's Solidarity - Fairly efficient permanent pump, and supports a +1/+1 counter theme. Sorcery speed might kill it though
Swift Response - Simple and fairly efficient de-powered removal.
Mistral Singer - Supports flyers and spellslinger but maybe a touch weak.
Spined Megalodon - Big resilient beater, but it has to compete with Striped Riverwinder
Waker of Waves - Super cycling is great, but it lacks the resilience on board. Also competing with Striped Riverwinder
Alchemist's Gift - Nice flexibility for just 1 mana, but probably not worth a card
Liliana's Devotee - Decent support for the BW sacrifice deck
Malefic Scythe - It becomes good with just 1 death trigger. With 2+ it becomes great.
Village Rites - Nice and efficient, but not sure if it edges out the other black draw spells
Hobblefiend - One of the better Carrion Feeder type cards. Nice that it has evasion too and has a reasonable floor. Not sure if I want this in red though.
Llanowar Visionary - Efficient but boring.
Pridemalkin - Decent +1/+1 Counter lord, but a bit weak by itself.
Experimental Overload - Seems good with just 3 instants/sorceries in graveyard.
Village Rites - effcient draw
Shipwreck Dowser - archeomancer than can attack
Bolt Hound - more battlecry
Heartfire Immolator - just great
Kinetic Augur - A red midrangey card of the type I was looking for
Quirion Dryad - best card of its type, although not an elf
Maybe
Mistral Singer - best wind drake but I wanted to try out Wingspan Mentor they might be swapped
Goblin Wizardry - great synergy but 4 mana is a bit steep
Experimental Overload - affects the board but can't be reused.
Garruk's Uprising - appears to have all of the value, I just don't have a lot of non-creatures in green
Chandra's Pyreling - not a wizard.
Watcher of the Spheres - I don't want to tunnel UW too hard on flyiers
Conclave Mentor - I don't want to tunnel GW too hard on +1/+1 counters.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own