A quick calculation on the odds of hitting more than one mill from Sphinx's Tutelage puts ita t 7% for 11 identical colour cards. This is a lowball and based on a 12 white, 11 black, 17 land deck and milling 2 black cards. I feel like you have to include the odds of hitting two whites instead somehow but probability is not my strong suit any more.
Assuming:
you play ST on turn 3
ST is how you win the game
You only draw your one card per turn (meaning your opponent mills 3 a turn cycle)
You do not activate ST's looting ability (6 mana is a lot to do nothing).
Your opponent draws no extra cards and doesn't add cards to their deck
It will take 11 turns to end the game with no double mills. 11 turns gives you a 77% chance to get the double mill (which would save a turn and then impact the chance.. it's 1am I'm not going that deep).
But then Teferi's Tutelage gives you an extra mill straight off the bat so it's definitely a turn quicker than the worst case for ST. If your opponent was heavier on one colour then the worst case I assumed above it will start to tip in favour of ST.
I think Teferi is a better teacher than the Sphinx just because looting is handy, but it seems very close. Is anybody even running ST these days?
The Concentrated Veteran is a trixky one. Adanto Vanguard is one of the best white tow drops we have. Like the Vanguard, the Veteran protects itself from most removal bar exile stuff and -x/-x but discarding a card is much worse than paying life (at leats in aggressive decks). On the other hand, the Veteran is a 3/1 also on defense.
The question is, can we make use of the free discard outlet? I dont think the Veteran can cross-pollinate in Worm Harvest sytel decks as white as a color does not offer enough support. Besides ots role as an aggressive creature, the Veteran might perform as an Oona's Prowler in a BW reanimator shell?
Concecrated Veteran seems better on defence at first glance, since it turns all your cards into free combat-tricks it looks hard to attack into. It does open you up for a two for one against -1/-1 and exile effects though. It is also decent on attack, so perhaps the decision hinges on whether you want a white 2-drop with more general application or one that is aggro-only.
Without having looked carefully into the four-drops available for that deck, Tide Skimmer looks like a decent addition to the UW skies deck.
(3U for 2/3 flier with "Whenever you attack with two or more creatures with flying, draw a card.")
Discarding to something like Wild Mongrel to counter removal and to keep it on the field is generally considered a good move: you can opt out of doing it if it's not in your best interest, but if an opponent wants the creature gone, you probably have reason to want to keep it on the field, and it's a decent tempo advantage not to lose the mana invested in it when you can discard a card in which you could potentially invest mana but have not.
It's not as nice as paying life but if an opponent is using a targeted removal spell, you're still generally breaking even in terms of card advantage and probably coming up on top in terms of card quality (removal vs. random card).
For the record, I also really like Spiked Megalodon and it's pretty absurd that's a *common*. 5/7 hexproof for 5UU that scries whenever it attacks. It's a big enough butt to survive or defend with, has in-built protection, and even minor in-built card quality filtering. I'd be happy to have that as a finisher, whether in control or reanimator.
Banri's Acolyte seems pretty strong: weaker than Relief Captain in aggressive decks, but better in less aggressive ones. Hard to see this being a miss.
I'm a fan of Obelisk Spider as a strong defensive card, but I'm not entirely sure BW has enough of a lategame to want a similar card in Indulging Patrician if you can't trigger it consistently. It is another card to keep in mind for a lifegain archetype, but it probably needs a few more enablers first.
Shipwreck Dowser is a solid upgrade to Mnenomic Wall (Archeomancer too if you're not using it to combo). Might help facilitate some blue midrange shells too.
Maleficent Scythe is interesting enough to test, but I have my doubts to how good it is outside of aristocrats.
Tidal Whale is pretty reasonable in both reanimation and slower midranged shells, which puts it above Striped Riverwinder (which you only really want in reanimator) for me.
Consecrated Veteran seems decent, but discarding a card to get past a random small body is a high cost, especially in white.
Siege Striker is pretty exciting. If you have a board advantage it basically abysses the opponent (gets especially nasty with trample givers too), and Fencing Ace isn't the worst baseline.
Basri's Acolyte is great for a common, but from my pov it's slightly worse than Relief Captain and I don't need two of these.
Quirion Dryad is tempting, mono color is rarely an option in cube and it grows automatically. Plus +1/+1 counters support, plus there is an old frame card I can use. Will most likely try.
Shipwreck Dowser is finally a playable card (unlike Archaeomancer or Mnemonic Wall) with this effect. Still not sure I like it enough to add it, would rather like to a see a 2U Snapcaster Mage at uncommon.
Llanowar Visionary looks nice and I have a bunch of (ramp) creatures in the green 3 cmc section that can be replaced so I will most likely give it a try.
Teferi's Tutelage is a playable addition for people who want a mill archetype, but it's still an extremely narrow card. It's probably not worse than Sphinx's Tutelage, just different. I'm not interested.
Maleficent Scythe looks ok, but I'm not sure I have place for it in black. I can see it getting used in aggro and aristocrats, though aggro always has a hard time finding a place for non-creature spells.
I don't like Consecrated Veteran that much. To me it's clearly worse than Adanto Vanguard and whether discarding a card is worth it or not will be highly situational, much more than the 4 life you have to pay for Vanguard.
Tidal Whale is a lot worse than Striped Riverwinder in reanimator and as a control finisher due to the lack of resilience (plus you can't discard it t1 in reanimator) so the only place for it would be a slow midrange deck and in that case it's not even clearly better than Riverwinder. Pass.
Siege Striker is interesting, but usually dedicated double strike/equipment decks don't run that many creatures. It can fit into a regular white go wide aggro deck, but it's odd as it's only good if you don't attack with the rest of your team. On the other hand white 3 cmc creatures are severely lacking in my cube and I could need another one. Will think about it.
I like Archdemon's Vessel, even if it is narrow. Maybe for larger cubes? Outside of actual reanimator it works with Unearth, Vesperlark, Call of the Death-Dweller and Necropanther (and three of those have been printed only in the last year!).
I'm also waiting to see if there'll be a low-cmc enabler in the set itself, or if it's just meant to be played with some chosen 5cmc reanimator spell reprint.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I wish all archetypes could be equally hated. Or loved, but the former better reflects the mindset of the vocal portion of the player base. My 540ish Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
I feel like Leaping Augur is worse than what we have as a spells-matters creature. I like the ETB-rummage though, it's an effect I have been wanting on a decent red creature. Not sure this is it for me. I'm almost more interested in Chandra's Pyreling. It's difficult to set it up, and probably too fragile, but I can imagine it being fun to try to craft a deck where it works.
Archdemon's Vessel seems too bad "on the front side" to consider. I don't know, it can serve double duty as a chump-blocker to buy you time as well as being a reanimation-target..?
Pridemalkin isn't super exciting, but I'm glad we finally have a version of this effect that doesn't feel like you're jumping through a bunch of hoops to make it work. The fact that this places a counter wherever on etb to enable it's own effect leads me to believe it would be playable in a wider range of decks than something like Tuskguard Captain or Bramblewood Paragon.
Archdemon’s Vessel feels like a trap; big fatties can at least function in decks outside of reanimator, but this card seems like it would only be worth running in a focused reanimator deck, and even then the payoff isn't really anything special. It's cute with Unearth, but a lot of the time it's just gonna end up being useless.
leaping augur is annoying for me because it is exactly the kind of mid-range card I was looking for but I am not sure the midrange deck will use a lot of instants and sorceries. Is it good enough as a 2/4?
obsessive stitcher seems super good? 3 mana looter that can cash in later on for a zombify seems like a really synergistic blend of two abilities on one card, and the flexibility of it definitely makes up for being a 3 mana 0/3 imo. considering how dimir as a guild is super fluid, i think this is definitely at very least testable, if not a staple.
eliminate is a good removal spell. hitting planeswalkers isn't irrelevant for us anymore either which is lovely.
selfless savior feels redundant with dauntless bodyguard, but it's not strictly worse to be fair.
chandra's pyreling has to have good synergy options at peasant right? i can't think of any off the top of my head, but the amount of damage this will represent could be scary.
"dire fleet smashy boy" looks like an awesome aggressive option in rakdos, and saccing is a big thing in cube now too. 3 mana 5/5 trample looks inviting...
archfiend's vessel is a super interesting design, but is probably way too narrow for cube. we do have plenty of options for small reanimations, though.
bolt hound... feels good enough, just depends how you stack up your red 3s i guess. i could see myself happily running this.
a lot of these cards seem good, but not quite good enough, or maybe just not what i'm looking for atm. which is a-ok.
\
chandra's pyreling has to have good synergy options at peasant right? i can't think of any off the top of my head, but the amount of damage this will represent could be scary.
The card is an obvious riff on Scorch Spitter, and unsurprisingly synergizes pretty well.
Warden of the woods looks pretty nice. The lack of trample when you play a fattie is annoying, but this card will give you almost any time two cards if is targeted by your opponent. Edicts is something you don't want to see here, but we don't have unconditional wraths, so I think this could be a great addition.
Edit: the card is not yet available to see, so I'll write it here:
Warden of the Woods
4GG
creature - Treefolk
Vigilance.
Whenever Warden of the Woods becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may draw two cards.
I also like Warden of the Woods, will replace Scaled Behemoth in my cube. While hexproof is better than the draw two cards effect vigilance is a huge upside for a ramp creature like that. I remember a lot of situations where I couldn't afford to attack with my giant hexproof monster (Behemoth or Plated Crusher when it was still in my cube) because I needed it as a blocker.
On top of that the Warden effect will be more fun to play with, hexproof is always a bit boring.
EDIT: Leaping Augur is ok, but nothing I've been waiting for. And if there is one cmc section in red I don't need more creatures for it's the 4 cmc section, so it's an easy pass for me.
Village Rites is absurdly cheap for a card with a passable floor and a ridiculous ceiling.
Pridemalkin looks solid, but these effect always seem better than they are imo.
Obsessive Stitcher is probably just slightly too expensive. 3 mana looters just aren't where you want to be, especially when the upsides are combat based (which puts it in danger) and an expensive reanimation effect.
I don't think Warden of the Woods compares favourably to Scaled Behemoth. Distruptive aggro decks and control decks have massive issues with Scaled Behemoth but can reasonably deal with Warden, and it doesn't really gain enough in other matchups. Granted it doesn't matter much since I'm probably just playing both (I think it beats out all the other "aggressive" green top end like Plated Crusher, Skysnare Spider, or Sifter Wurm).
Tidal Whale is a lot worse than Striped Riverwinder in reanimator and as a control finisher due to the lack of resilience (plus you can't discard it t1 in reanimator) so the only place for it would be a slow midrange deck and in that case it's not even clearly better than Riverwinder. Pass.
Do people still play dedicated creature based wincons in control? I've always found that they aren't enough faster than nickle and diming with random value dudes to justify including.
To answer Purplemurasaki's question: Yes. Though, I generally think such wincons ought to operate on the same axis as the rest of the deck so that you're not fully reliant on drawing them. This is why I don't include the 'can mill a whole deck with time' cards, for instance: the value creatures you'd include anyway and the damage they deal don't contribute to winning using them. But winning through combat damage is not *reliant* on specific cards, and a resilient giant beater can stabilise your board and be effectively impossible to remove to give you inevitability.
Some exceptions I do allow are Worm Harvest and Rise from the Tides as the former is just a lot of fun and does not mind being countered (giving it resilience) while the latter synergises with stuff like other token generators and just requires focusing more heavily on spells.
Hellkite Punisher is too expensive for no immediate impact or protection. Honestly even Shivan Dragon might not cut it these days if it were available. What I would be interested in is a better Volcanic Dragon
Village Rites is absurdly cheap for a card with a passable floor and a ridiculous ceiling.
I'm surprised I haven't seen more discussion on this. I keep comparing it in my head to a single use Skullclamp. Where clamp requires two mana at sorcery speed to trigger its first time, this is one mana at instant speed, with the trade-off of not being repeatable and not being a visible rattlesnake ("If you attack, I'll block and draw"). It's quite fair while still being open to powerful plays, especially when you were already going to lose a creature. I've never cared for Altar's Reap, but for a single mana, it becomes much more appealing.
i think black has good enough card draw that village rites isn't necessary, but i could be wrong. 1 mana for 2 cards at instant speed is pretty absurd after all.
heartfire immolator feels super good, like the equivalent of seeker of the way for red. baseline being a shock is a great floor too.
warden of the woods is definitely strong, but i guess it depends how you value the sticking power of your top end. i like the trigger but sometimes your opponent will just kill you before the cards matter i imagine. whether that's something that happens often enough to be a big deal... i'm doubtful, but.
alpine houndmaster, ignoring the fetching dogs, still looks powerful. kinda nice to support tokens in a different way than mass pump too. shame the dogs it fetches are so far from being cubeable because that might've been a game changer.
Im a little surprised no one is talking about Garruks Uprising. Seems like a nice card for green ramp, which could use some support. The card draw on etb seems really nice when you topdeck it. Is power 4 or more too narrow to play?
Vryn Wingmare is a nice downshift, I like that Death and Taxes or prison like decks are becoming a possibility for peasant.
Yeah, I'd say the 4+ power bit is still to limiting in this format to make Garruk's Uprising worth it. It'd generally trigger from maybe ~4 creatures in a given deck. Getting immediate value if you already have one is a nice way to offset it a bit, at least. Plus, there are some ways to get more consistent value, of course, like Dash creatures.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
The question is, can we make use of the free discard outlet? I dont think the Veteran can cross-pollinate in Worm Harvest sytel decks as white as a color does not offer enough support. Besides ots role as an aggressive creature, the Veteran might perform as an Oona's Prowler in a BW reanimator shell?
My Peasant Cube: @ mtgsalvation---- @ cubecobra
Without having looked carefully into the four-drops available for that deck, Tide Skimmer looks like a decent addition to the UW skies deck.
(3U for 2/3 flier with "Whenever you attack with two or more creatures with flying, draw a card.")
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
It's not as nice as paying life but if an opponent is using a targeted removal spell, you're still generally breaking even in terms of card advantage and probably coming up on top in terms of card quality (removal vs. random card).
For the record, I also really like Spiked Megalodon and it's pretty absurd that's a *common*. 5/7 hexproof for 5UU that scries whenever it attacks. It's a big enough butt to survive or defend with, has in-built protection, and even minor in-built card quality filtering. I'd be happy to have that as a finisher, whether in control or reanimator.
I'm a fan of Obelisk Spider as a strong defensive card, but I'm not entirely sure BW has enough of a lategame to want a similar card in Indulging Patrician if you can't trigger it consistently. It is another card to keep in mind for a lifegain archetype, but it probably needs a few more enablers first.
Llanowar Visionary is boring, but also definitely playable.
Shipwreck Dowser is a solid upgrade to Mnenomic Wall (Archeomancer too if you're not using it to combo). Might help facilitate some blue midrange shells too.
Maleficent Scythe is interesting enough to test, but I have my doubts to how good it is outside of aristocrats.
Tidal Whale is pretty reasonable in both reanimation and slower midranged shells, which puts it above Striped Riverwinder (which you only really want in reanimator) for me.
Consecrated Veteran seems decent, but discarding a card to get past a random small body is a high cost, especially in white.
Siege Striker is pretty exciting. If you have a board advantage it basically abysses the opponent (gets especially nasty with trample givers too), and Fencing Ace isn't the worst baseline.
Quirion Dryad is tempting, mono color is rarely an option in cube and it grows automatically. Plus +1/+1 counters support, plus there is an old frame card I can use. Will most likely try.
Shipwreck Dowser is finally a playable card (unlike Archaeomancer or Mnemonic Wall) with this effect. Still not sure I like it enough to add it, would rather like to a see a 2U Snapcaster Mage at uncommon.
Llanowar Visionary looks nice and I have a bunch of (ramp) creatures in the green 3 cmc section that can be replaced so I will most likely give it a try.
Teferi's Tutelage is a playable addition for people who want a mill archetype, but it's still an extremely narrow card. It's probably not worse than Sphinx's Tutelage, just different. I'm not interested.
Maleficent Scythe looks ok, but I'm not sure I have place for it in black. I can see it getting used in aggro and aristocrats, though aggro always has a hard time finding a place for non-creature spells.
I don't like Consecrated Veteran that much. To me it's clearly worse than Adanto Vanguard and whether discarding a card is worth it or not will be highly situational, much more than the 4 life you have to pay for Vanguard.
Tidal Whale is a lot worse than Striped Riverwinder in reanimator and as a control finisher due to the lack of resilience (plus you can't discard it t1 in reanimator) so the only place for it would be a slow midrange deck and in that case it's not even clearly better than Riverwinder. Pass.
Siege Striker is interesting, but usually dedicated double strike/equipment decks don't run that many creatures. It can fit into a regular white go wide aggro deck, but it's odd as it's only good if you don't attack with the rest of your team. On the other hand white 3 cmc creatures are severely lacking in my cube and I could need another one. Will think about it.
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I'm also waiting to see if there'll be a low-cmc enabler in the set itself, or if it's just meant to be played with some chosen 5cmc reanimator spell reprint.
My 540ish Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
Archdemon's Vessel seems too bad "on the front side" to consider. I don't know, it can serve double duty as a chump-blocker to buy you time as well as being a reanimation-target..?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Archdemon’s Vessel feels like a trap; big fatties can at least function in decks outside of reanimator, but this card seems like it would only be worth running in a focused reanimator deck, and even then the payoff isn't really anything special. It's cute with Unearth, but a lot of the time it's just gonna end up being useless.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
eliminate is a good removal spell. hitting planeswalkers isn't irrelevant for us anymore either which is lovely.
selfless savior feels redundant with dauntless bodyguard, but it's not strictly worse to be fair.
chandra's pyreling has to have good synergy options at peasant right? i can't think of any off the top of my head, but the amount of damage this will represent could be scary.
"dire fleet smashy boy" looks like an awesome aggressive option in rakdos, and saccing is a big thing in cube now too. 3 mana 5/5 trample looks inviting...
archfiend's vessel is a super interesting design, but is probably way too narrow for cube. we do have plenty of options for small reanimations, though.
bolt hound... feels good enough, just depends how you stack up your red 3s i guess. i could see myself happily running this.
a lot of these cards seem good, but not quite good enough, or maybe just not what i'm looking for atm. which is a-ok.
The card is an obvious riff on Scorch Spitter, and unsurprisingly synergizes pretty well.
Edit: the card is not yet available to see, so I'll write it here:
Warden of the Woods
4GG
creature - Treefolk
Vigilance.
Whenever Warden of the Woods becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may draw two cards.
My Omniscience Draft Cube[/b]
My Commander Cube
My Pai Gow Cube
My Two-Headed Giant Cube
On top of that the Warden effect will be more fun to play with, hexproof is always a bit boring.
EDIT: Leaping Augur is ok, but nothing I've been waiting for. And if there is one cmc section in red I don't need more creatures for it's the 4 cmc section, so it's an easy pass for me.
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
Pridemalkin looks solid, but these effect always seem better than they are imo.
Obsessive Stitcher is probably just slightly too expensive. 3 mana looters just aren't where you want to be, especially when the upsides are combat based (which puts it in danger) and an expensive reanimation effect.
I don't think Warden of the Woods compares favourably to Scaled Behemoth. Distruptive aggro decks and control decks have massive issues with Scaled Behemoth but can reasonably deal with Warden, and it doesn't really gain enough in other matchups. Granted it doesn't matter much since I'm probably just playing both (I think it beats out all the other "aggressive" green top end like Plated Crusher, Skysnare Spider, or Sifter Wurm). Do people still play dedicated creature based wincons in control? I've always found that they aren't enough faster than nickle and diming with random value dudes to justify including.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Some exceptions I do allow are Worm Harvest and Rise from the Tides as the former is just a lot of fun and does not mind being countered (giving it resilience) while the latter synergises with stuff like other token generators and just requires focusing more heavily on spells.
Hellkite Punisher is too expensive for no immediate impact or protection. Honestly even Shivan Dragon might not cut it these days if it were available. What I would be interested in is a better Volcanic Dragon
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
heartfire immolator feels super good, like the equivalent of seeker of the way for red. baseline being a shock is a great floor too.
warden of the woods is definitely strong, but i guess it depends how you value the sticking power of your top end. i like the trigger but sometimes your opponent will just kill you before the cards matter i imagine. whether that's something that happens often enough to be a big deal... i'm doubtful, but.
alpine houndmaster, ignoring the fetching dogs, still looks powerful. kinda nice to support tokens in a different way than mass pump too. shame the dogs it fetches are so far from being cubeable because that might've been a game changer.
Vryn Wingmare is a nice downshift, I like that Death and Taxes or prison like decks are becoming a possibility for peasant.
Edit: For instance, here are the non-token ways to trigger it in my CU/be, and the vehicles don't even actually count.