The Spider was the first card printed and the difference is pretty marginal, even though one is obviously strictly better. I sometimes hear the argument that 4C is better than 3CC, because you can splash it. I think this argument is pretty invalid if the card, referred to, is a card you would nearly never realisticly splash for. and in a 2 color deck on turn 5 you should pretty consistently have a 3/2 land split in either way.
But if you wait to cmc5 to interact with Delver, youre doing it wrong.
Well from my experience with Delver in limited turn 5 can be realistic. This card is just so horrible in limited and a great example for how many people misjudge a card's power level based on the performance in a dedicated constructed deck.
ok, those are statements my experience is completely different.
no matter what turn, getting double mana of a 2nd color will always be tougher than only one. Especially when most secondary colors tend do be that. secondary. meaning you dont run 50/50 lands, but more like 70/30, otherwise it can hardly be called "splash".
Splash usually refers to running maybe 1 or 2 cards (and sources) of another color and Spider is completely unsplashable.
Delver on the other hand, sure is more unreliable than in a dedicated constructed deck.
But when you support the card, its not much different in cubes.
Cube is way more close to constructed than limited, especially when you go all-in on archetype support like most on this forum tend to.
Its no problem to run 80% spells in a cubedeck, so flipping delver on turn 2 is not too big of a hassle. Cmc5 doesnt equal turn 5 either, more like turn 7+. This isnt hearthstone. And by then you are already dead.
no matter what turn, getting double mana of a 2nd color will always be tougher than only one. Especially when most secondary colors tend do be that. secondary. meaning you dont run 50/50 lands, but more like 70/30, otherwise it can hardly be called "splash".
Splash usually refers to running maybe 1 or 2 cards (and sources) of another color and Spider is completely unsplashable.
Mono colored decks are rarely a thing in my cube and the average deck is 2 colored with an even split of lands. In such a deck being 3CC or 4C barely makes a difference.
Even though you can technically splash a 2nd color into your mono colored deck I don't really think about that, when I'm talking about a splash, because as I said monocolored is kind of a corner case in my experience. For me the typical splash are 1-2 very powerful cards you put in your 2-colored deck e.g. Fireball in your UG ramp deck.
Saying that the spider isn't splashable is exactly true, and even though Bitterbow Sharpshooters is technically more splashable it's simply not a card you would ever realistically splash as part of 1-2 cards in your otherwise 2-colored non-green deck, which is why it doesn't really matter if it's splashable or not, because you would only run this card, if it's your main color.
Delver on the other hand, sure is more unreliable than in a dedicated constructed deck.
But when you support the card, its not much different in cubes.
Cube is way more close to constructed than limited, especially when you go all-in on archetype support like most on this forum tend to.
Its no problem to run 80% spells in a cubedeck, so flipping delver on turn 2 is not too big of a hassle. Cmc5 doesnt equal turn 5 either, more like turn 7+. This isnt hearthstone. And by then you are already dead.
The difference to constructed is, that you have multiple copies and such a solid chance to play a Delver on turn 1, which makes it much more viable to dedicate your deck heavily to support it.
Even in a highly dedicated deck and hoping, that it is in your opening hand you will still not flip consistently, because you have a higher land ratio in limited:
avg. draft deck: 17/40 lands = 42,5%
16/40 lands = 40,00% (80%/24 nonland cards ≈ 19/40 = 47,5% noncreature spells => not even 50% flip chance)
(lower than 16 the decks becomes really inconsistent if your curve doesn't end at 2)
Pauper UB Delver ~20/60 lands = 33,3%
Btw. with 17 lands you will hit your 5th land drop on turn 5 extremely consistently.
I think the shooters are an interesting splash, because there arent too many good 5 drop creatures around.
Even when the GG doesnt matter I fail to see why you want to prefer the Spider.
when it comes to lands my cube usually wants 15 in a deck, otherwise you flood horribly.
thats definitely true for the fully supported spells matters deck, when you have accesss to like 4 cmc1 cantrips plus Impulse and stuff youre fine running as low as 13 lands.
It doesnt really matters whether or not you have delver reliably on turn1, because no matter what, it can and will happen and you dont wanna autolose to that.
in fact green has a bunch of "staple" reach creatures at lower cmc, so no problem there. you are not relying on the spider, thats why i cut it (and keep asp)
that said, you really should get rid of the mindset that cubedraft follows the same rules as booster draft. Its much closer to preconstructed.
The Spider was the first card printed and the difference is pretty marginal, even though one is obviously strictly better. I sometimes hear the argument that 4C is better than 3CC, because you can splash it. I think this argument is pretty invalid if the card, referred to, is a card you would nearly never realisticly splash for. and in a 2 color deck on turn 5 you should pretty consistently have a 3/2 land split in either way.
4C vs 3CC matters IMO because green is by far the mostly likely to go three colors in which case keeping color requirements to a minimum is a nice bonus.
EDIT: and, like Hump said, a 3 color deck might consider the Sharpshooters because there isn't a ton of competition at 5.
Even when the GG doesnt matter I fail to see why you want to prefer the Spider.
Primarily if you want to encourage green decks to stay "base green" rather than going 3 color.
I think the shooters are an interesting splash, because there arent too many good 5 drop creatures around.
Even when the GG doesnt matter I fail to see why you want to prefer the Spider.
when it comes to lands my cube usually wants 15 in a deck, otherwise you flood horribly.
thats definitely true for the fully supported spells matters deck, when you have accesss to like 4 cmc1 cantrips plus Impulse and stuff youre fine running as low as 13 lands.
It doesnt really matters whether or not you have delver reliably on turn1, because no matter what, it can and will happen and you dont wanna autolose to that.
in fact green has a bunch of "staple" reach creatures at lower cmc, so no problem there. you are not relying on the spider, thats why i cut it (and keep asp)
that said, you really should get rid of the mindset that cubedraft follows the same rules as booster draft. Its much closer to preconstructed.
I tend to take your side that Cube can be/is something other than a traditional booster draft format but almost all of the disagreements between you and Al are rooted in a failure to acknowledge that your Cubes do not fundamentally share the same philosophy. Its not necessarily true that one is more valid than the other (personally, most groups you introduce pauper Cube to are going to expect/desire it to be All Star Booster Draft)
Nylea's Huntmaster is a playable devotion to green card and would be the primary reason to run Sentinel Spider over Bitterbow Sharpshooters. I hadn't realised that there was a difference in mana cost between the two. So I was referring to Sentinel Spider because it was what I have played with in the past. I think the single green mana matters a bit for the games where you only draw 1 green source, unlikely but these things do happen. Or you could be splashing two colours for removal and general cheap stuff and are relying on green for the upper end of the curve. The creature types as usual are irrelevant. Functionally there is no difference between the two creatures unlike Inner-flame Acolyte and Minotaur Skullcleaver. The extra colour symbol matters much more at 3 mana than at 5. The two cards play differently different. Both have the 3 mana 4 power haste mode, however the important thing to note is you can envoke the flame-kin (while not always the optimal play, the option only adds power to the card) and you can also give the bonus to another creature (presumably one with some kind of evasion of synergy with additional power). Which makes the cards very different in that case as there is not a strictly better than comparison.
I want cards at every point of the curve to interact with fliers not just Insectile Aberration. The one mana ones happen to be the most efficient ones we have access to due to their cost and growing nature. Generally fliers want to be played with other fliers because they all invalidate anything that doesn't have reach or flying of defence, thus giving you less targets to deal with when you hold tempo. Errant Ephemeron and Illusionary Forces are probably the major threats that you would want Bitterbow Sharpshooters for. Or Nessian Asp, 5 toughness coming in useful again.
Delver of Secrets is decent in our format. It is by no means staple, however it plays really well in spell heavy decks with cards such as Preordain and Brainstorm along side Kiln Fiend and Nivix Cyclops. You can't spend all your picks on making Delver of Secrets as good as it can be as you can in other formats. But it is a tight fit in spell heavy decks, particularly U/R or Grixis builds.
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There's no word in the goblin language for "strategy." Then again, there's no word in the goblin language for "word."
Even when the GG doesnt matter I fail to see why you want to prefer the Spider.
I never said I prefer the Spider, I was only pointing out, that the difference is not that big for a cmc 5 card that you will very rarely splash. I would definitely run the Archers if I were only running one of the 2.
For now I will stick with my green 5 drops as they are, but there definitely is a lot of room for discussion about this topic, because all the options are so close in power level and very interchangeable based on your preferences.
Thoughts on Vastwood Zendikon? I guess it will function more as a 6 drop. I like 6 power, but 4 toughness exposes weaknesses. I wonder if anyone here has tried Vastwood Zendikon?
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There's no word in the goblin language for "strategy." Then again, there's no word in the goblin language for "word."
The 5 cmc one hastes as a 4/4 which isn't really what I'm looking for. And the 6/6 one costs 7 which is a huge increase in mana cost due to the gap between drawing drawing an extra mana source that late in the game. 7 too spenny and 4/4 too small.
It's also worth noting that as your Cube gets faster it tends toward more heavy single colored decks that lightly splashes a second color just because as you reduce land you also reduce color consistency. 14 lands is actually not that bad if you have a low curve -- but it lessens the guarantee of hitting two colors of mana.
It's also worth noting that as your Cube gets faster it tends toward more heavy single colored decks that lightly splashes a second color just because as you reduce land you also reduce color consistency. 14 lands is actually not that bad if you have a low curve -- but it lessens the guarantee of hitting two colors of mana.
I tend to not go below 15 lands. I guess I could do 14 if I was mono-coloured and had Wild Growth and Llanowar Elves to pad out for additional mana sources.
When I splash for an additional colour I'm often looking for an increase in card quality or I'm looking for some kind of engine to give my deck a few more gears to switch to when the pace of the game changes.
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There's no word in the goblin language for "strategy." Then again, there's no word in the goblin language for "word."
It's also worth noting that as your Cube gets faster it tends toward more heavy single colored decks that lightly splashes a second color just because as you reduce land you also reduce color consistency. 14 lands is actually not that bad if you have a low curve -- but it lessens the guarantee of hitting two colors of mana.
I tend to not go below 15 lands. I guess I could do 14 if I was mono-coloured and had Wild Growth and Llanowar Elves to pad out for additional mana sources.
When I splash for an additional colour I'm often looking for an increase in card quality or I'm looking for some kind of engine to give my deck a few more gears to switch to when the pace of the game changes.
What I was saying is that 16 land sources is actually a lot for decks that aren't going to play 5 drops and only a few fours. In those cases you are running 16 lands just so you can go play enough lands of both colors. So the faster your decks get the more likely there is to be a primary color and a de-emphasized/minor second color -- thereby allowing you to drop lands (by simple math which is not exactly right but close enough 14 lands is ~21 in a 60 card deck)
right now i try to build the colors around their placements on the cmc scale. meaning, i run more red ones than black because RB is deeper in red, therefore blacks one drops are less likely to be cast turn1. and so on.
The 5 cmc one hastes as a 4/4 which isn't really what I'm looking for. And the 6/6 one costs 7 which is a huge increase in mana cost due to the gap between drawing drawing an extra mana source that late in the game. 7 too spenny and 4/4 too small.
the zendikon is technically a 6 drop, so 7 doesnt seem too far fetched.
Because my desktop and laptop are logged into different accounts due to MTGsalvation's strange, strange login idiosyncrasies. This account is the main one I use, but occasionally when I'm browsing from desktop I'll use that account. I'm not quite sure how I exactly ended up with two, but it's something I'm not intending to fix.
I sort bumped into Vastwood Zendikon looking up Elemental cards so I decided to post it here. I'm not entirely sold on it's 5ness either, but it seemed decent and worthy of consideration. I'll probably pick up a copy at some point and try it out, probably to decide that 6 mana is too much to pay for anything. The Vastwood Zendikon seems better than Tenement Crasher which I have tried out and dismissed.
I play 3 of the other Zendikons (Wind Zendikon, Corrupted Zendikon and Crusher Zendikon) so it seems reasonable to want to try and include the others of the cycle. On that note: Guardian Zendikon is decent as well. 2/6 Walls seem to be alright. I just found that white hasn't really needed the Wall much. It could be worth trying again with a bit more sustain to support it, but really I think I'd prefer Custodian of the Trove. (Erring again towards Wall of Tanglecord in colourless territory.) Pseudo-haste seems to be the reason for wanting to turn lands into creatures in the first place and turning a land into a Wall doesn't really capitalise on that.
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There's no word in the goblin language for "strategy." Then again, there's no word in the goblin language for "word."
i only tried wind zendikon and corrupted but found them too clunky. they look better on paper than they actually play (they basically have an upkeep cost), so i wouldnt try the green one either. im also not sure haste is where green wants to be, except certain situations. therefore riot seems perfect.
Id say 4/4 haste is big enough for a surprise attack. Rampaging Redhorn Wrecking Beast
If you want something big, that has some hoops to hop, you could also try
Aradara Express hits hard. There is a lot of set up that is required. I think the hoops for crew are a bit too much to justify the payoff. Aradara Express seems signal a bit too strongly and require too little in terms of disruption to stop. I would consider Aradara Express only if I had more Vigean Hydropons sitting around with spare power to use. Maybe it's time to bust out Vigean Hydropon again, it was one of the cards I learnt Magic with so it'll be nostalgic grafting +1/+1 counters.
Rampaging Rendhorn seems better the more I think about it. I first disliked it as a midrange creature, but maybe it is a aggro top-end only. Still green has good options available on curve and Rampaging Rendhorn seems a bit too niche, while I like niche tools as a couple of one-ofs to give certain strategies key pay offs. I don't think Rendhorn quite does it in terms of pay off and I would rather include something like Abundant Growth which is about equally niche, but seems to more reliably be the right tool for the right job. Rampaging Rendhorn is pack filler as far as I'm concerned. I'm erring on this. Either it is just enough top-end for speedy gonzales or it is outclasses at everyother point in the curve. Maybe testing is required. A single green mana symbol means it is splashable... Maybe I am being too green centric here in my thinking. I haven't really considered green a colour to splash into, but maybe it's because I've been looking a green 2 and 3 drops which clearly aren't the most splashable of cards in existence...
I have very similar thoughts about Wrecking Beast. It feels like a piece of pack filler and nudges people in directions they didn't need to go. But maybe I am over looking the game closing potential. I don't think there is much common green haste to compare against.
On Zendikons: there is not an upkeep cost as far as I see it. Pseudo-haste works well for closing out games and each of Crusher Zendikon, Wind Zendikon, and Corrupted Zendikon provide the right pressure I'm looking for in each of their respective decks.
Crusher Zendikon is clearly the top end for a burn deck. I'm not too concerned with the land investment past turn 4.
Wind Zendikon is the cheapest in terms of upfront cost. So I get around the investment of the land by essentially shortcutting cost on the turn Wind Zendikon comes into play and getting a flier which has to be dealt with in short order. If the land is needed for mana on a later turn so be it, the enchantment was so cheap in the first place.
Corrupted Zendikon is exactly what I am looking for when I go for a Carnophage strategy. It's cheap and hits hard quick. I tend to not be worrying about curving into Gray Merchant of Asphodel when I am looking to go the Corrupted Zendikon route. Sure that kind of card is nice to have, but I'm not optimising to take advantage of that kind of drain. I'm looking to close a game quickly, not to drag out a game past my opponent's limits. This is where my love of Soulcage Fiend becomes apparent. Sometimes you play against burn and so be it. The solution is to be lean and mean. Sometimes you need to play a lucker Hymn to Tourach to close those. You still want to play the resource denial game because quite frankly that is what black is best at. I just want cheap overstated threats at the same time and probably avoid playing anything over 3 or 4 mana, maybe except for the odd Death Denied.
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There's no word in the goblin language for "strategy." Then again, there's no word in the goblin language for "word."
the 1 mana upkeep seems less of an issue on the higher costed zendikons, agree.
i dont like screwing up my curve for a shock or bolt in the early turns, especially when you can have similiarthings.
express seems indeed most interesting when you also run a bunch of cc3 4 power dudes Steeple CreeperLoathsome Chimera
which makes curving into them via manaelves kinda scary.
For balancing
Well from my experience with Delver in limited turn 5 can be realistic. This card is just so horrible in limited and a great example for how many people misjudge a card's power level based on the performance in a dedicated constructed deck.
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no matter what turn, getting double mana of a 2nd color will always be tougher than only one. Especially when most secondary colors tend do be that. secondary. meaning you dont run 50/50 lands, but more like 70/30, otherwise it can hardly be called "splash".
Splash usually refers to running maybe 1 or 2 cards (and sources) of another color and Spider is completely unsplashable.
Delver on the other hand, sure is more unreliable than in a dedicated constructed deck.
But when you support the card, its not much different in cubes.
Cube is way more close to constructed than limited, especially when you go all-in on archetype support like most on this forum tend to.
Its no problem to run 80% spells in a cubedeck, so flipping delver on turn 2 is not too big of a hassle. Cmc5 doesnt equal turn 5 either, more like turn 7+. This isnt hearthstone. And by then you are already dead.
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Even though you can technically splash a 2nd color into your mono colored deck I don't really think about that, when I'm talking about a splash, because as I said monocolored is kind of a corner case in my experience. For me the typical splash are 1-2 very powerful cards you put in your 2-colored deck e.g. Fireball in your UG ramp deck.
Saying that the spider isn't splashable is exactly true, and even though Bitterbow Sharpshooters is technically more splashable it's simply not a card you would ever realistically splash as part of 1-2 cards in your otherwise 2-colored non-green deck, which is why it doesn't really matter if it's splashable or not, because you would only run this card, if it's your main color.
The difference to constructed is, that you have multiple copies and such a solid chance to play a Delver on turn 1, which makes it much more viable to dedicate your deck heavily to support it.
Even in a highly dedicated deck and hoping, that it is in your opening hand you will still not flip consistently, because you have a higher land ratio in limited:
avg. draft deck: 17/40 lands = 42,5%
16/40 lands = 40,00% (80%/24 nonland cards ≈ 19/40 = 47,5% noncreature spells => not even 50% flip chance)
(lower than 16 the decks becomes really inconsistent if your curve doesn't end at 2)
Pauper UB Delver ~20/60 lands = 33,3%
Btw. with 17 lands you will hit your 5th land drop on turn 5 extremely consistently.
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Even when the GG doesnt matter I fail to see why you want to prefer the Spider.
when it comes to lands my cube usually wants 15 in a deck, otherwise you flood horribly.
thats definitely true for the fully supported spells matters deck, when you have accesss to like 4 cmc1 cantrips plus Impulse and stuff youre fine running as low as 13 lands.
It doesnt really matters whether or not you have delver reliably on turn1, because no matter what, it can and will happen and you dont wanna autolose to that.
in fact green has a bunch of "staple" reach creatures at lower cmc, so no problem there. you are not relying on the spider, thats why i cut it (and keep asp)
that said, you really should get rid of the mindset that cubedraft follows the same rules as booster draft. Its much closer to preconstructed.
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4C vs 3CC matters IMO because green is by far the mostly likely to go three colors in which case keeping color requirements to a minimum is a nice bonus.
EDIT: and, like Hump said, a 3 color deck might consider the Sharpshooters because there isn't a ton of competition at 5.
Primarily if you want to encourage green decks to stay "base green" rather than going 3 color.
I tend to take your side that Cube can be/is something other than a traditional booster draft format but almost all of the disagreements between you and Al are rooted in a failure to acknowledge that your Cubes do not fundamentally share the same philosophy. Its not necessarily true that one is more valid than the other (personally, most groups you introduce pauper Cube to are going to expect/desire it to be All Star Booster Draft)
I want cards at every point of the curve to interact with fliers not just Insectile Aberration. The one mana ones happen to be the most efficient ones we have access to due to their cost and growing nature. Generally fliers want to be played with other fliers because they all invalidate anything that doesn't have reach or flying of defence, thus giving you less targets to deal with when you hold tempo. Errant Ephemeron and Illusionary Forces are probably the major threats that you would want Bitterbow Sharpshooters for. Or Nessian Asp, 5 toughness coming in useful again.
Delver of Secrets is decent in our format. It is by no means staple, however it plays really well in spell heavy decks with cards such as Preordain and Brainstorm along side Kiln Fiend and Nivix Cyclops. You can't spend all your picks on making Delver of Secrets as good as it can be as you can in other formats. But it is a tight fit in spell heavy decks, particularly U/R or Grixis builds.
For now I will stick with my green 5 drops as they are, but there definitely is a lot of room for discussion about this topic, because all the options are so close in power level and very interchangeable based on your preferences.
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I tend to not go below 15 lands. I guess I could do 14 if I was mono-coloured and had Wild Growth and Llanowar Elves to pad out for additional mana sources.
When I splash for an additional colour I'm often looking for an increase in card quality or I'm looking for some kind of engine to give my deck a few more gears to switch to when the pace of the game changes.
What I was saying is that 16 land sources is actually a lot for decks that aren't going to play 5 drops and only a few fours. In those cases you are running 16 lands just so you can go play enough lands of both colors. So the faster your decks get the more likely there is to be a primary color and a de-emphasized/minor second color -- thereby allowing you to drop lands (by simple math which is not exactly right but close enough 14 lands is ~21 in a 60 card deck)
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the zendikon is technically a 6 drop, so 7 doesnt seem too far fetched.
why do you use 2 accounts here though?
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I sort bumped into Vastwood Zendikon looking up Elemental cards so I decided to post it here. I'm not entirely sold on it's 5ness either, but it seemed decent and worthy of consideration. I'll probably pick up a copy at some point and try it out, probably to decide that 6 mana is too much to pay for anything. The Vastwood Zendikon seems better than Tenement Crasher which I have tried out and dismissed.
I play 3 of the other Zendikons (Wind Zendikon, Corrupted Zendikon and Crusher Zendikon) so it seems reasonable to want to try and include the others of the cycle. On that note: Guardian Zendikon is decent as well. 2/6 Walls seem to be alright. I just found that white hasn't really needed the Wall much. It could be worth trying again with a bit more sustain to support it, but really I think I'd prefer Custodian of the Trove. (Erring again towards Wall of Tanglecord in colourless territory.) Pseudo-haste seems to be the reason for wanting to turn lands into creatures in the first place and turning a land into a Wall doesn't really capitalise on that.
Id say 4/4 haste is big enough for a surprise attack.
Rampaging Redhorn
Wrecking Beast
If you want something big, that has some hoops to hop, you could also try
Aradara Express
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Rampaging Rendhorn seems better the more I think about it. I first disliked it as a midrange creature, but maybe it is a aggro top-end only. Still green has good options available on curve and Rampaging Rendhorn seems a bit too niche, while I like niche tools as a couple of one-ofs to give certain strategies key pay offs. I don't think Rendhorn quite does it in terms of pay off and I would rather include something like Abundant Growth which is about equally niche, but seems to more reliably be the right tool for the right job. Rampaging Rendhorn is pack filler as far as I'm concerned. I'm erring on this. Either it is just enough top-end for speedy gonzales or it is outclasses at everyother point in the curve. Maybe testing is required. A single green mana symbol means it is splashable... Maybe I am being too green centric here in my thinking. I haven't really considered green a colour to splash into, but maybe it's because I've been looking a green 2 and 3 drops which clearly aren't the most splashable of cards in existence...
I have very similar thoughts about Wrecking Beast. It feels like a piece of pack filler and nudges people in directions they didn't need to go. But maybe I am over looking the game closing potential. I don't think there is much common green haste to compare against.
On Zendikons: there is not an upkeep cost as far as I see it. Pseudo-haste works well for closing out games and each of Crusher Zendikon, Wind Zendikon, and Corrupted Zendikon provide the right pressure I'm looking for in each of their respective decks.
Crusher Zendikon is clearly the top end for a burn deck. I'm not too concerned with the land investment past turn 4.
Wind Zendikon is the cheapest in terms of upfront cost. So I get around the investment of the land by essentially shortcutting cost on the turn Wind Zendikon comes into play and getting a flier which has to be dealt with in short order. If the land is needed for mana on a later turn so be it, the enchantment was so cheap in the first place.
Corrupted Zendikon is exactly what I am looking for when I go for a Carnophage strategy. It's cheap and hits hard quick. I tend to not be worrying about curving into Gray Merchant of Asphodel when I am looking to go the Corrupted Zendikon route. Sure that kind of card is nice to have, but I'm not optimising to take advantage of that kind of drain. I'm looking to close a game quickly, not to drag out a game past my opponent's limits. This is where my love of Soulcage Fiend becomes apparent. Sometimes you play against burn and so be it. The solution is to be lean and mean. Sometimes you need to play a lucker Hymn to Tourach to close those. You still want to play the resource denial game because quite frankly that is what black is best at. I just want cheap overstated threats at the same time and probably avoid playing anything over 3 or 4 mana, maybe except for the odd Death Denied.
i dont like screwing up my curve for a shock or bolt in the early turns, especially when you can have similiar things.
express seems indeed most interesting when you also run a bunch of cc3 4 power dudes Steeple CreeperLoathsome Chimera
which makes curving into them via manaelves kinda scary.
my favorite slasher of them all is Ninja of the New Moon though
Rendhord is definitely more of a hyperaggrofinisher or is a solid cmc5 5/5 which is still a efficient statline
if you wanna be green centric, i like Timbermaw Larva
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