I agree. I feel the ability to stop lifegain in any red deck is huge. Whether its for an aggressive burn deck or for the red control decks that show up occasionally in my cube I feel Tibalt offers a nice way to prevent the lifegain that is everywhere in my cube.
It was a trip down memory lane to see the conversation about hybrids.
And a little embarrassing to see that I said "a factor of magnitude" instead of "an order of magnitude".
But otherwise, I still feel pretty justified.
For reference, you dont need a multiple of 5 necessarily. It is better if you can find 5 whole cards worth adding that perfectly line up the colors, but thats a very hard ask. I still prefer to look for doubles and triangles of cards that can go in, if it means playing better cards over filler monocolored alternatives.
My friend was brainstorming about Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted. He was thinking that maybe he's good as a curve topper in an aggro deck.
turns 1-4, get in some sweet dmg, maybe opponent down to 8.
opponent turn 4 plays a 4drop blocker and passes.
turn 5, you play Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted, blow up they blocker (take 2), get in for some more combat dmg, pass (take 1)
How often could that kind of situation occur? Got me thinking.
I am definitely adding Ob daddy. I think he will be sweet in an aggro deck like you described or even as a gy focused deck saccing your own creatures. I think he's going to be fun.
That “role” will work out occasionally but for aggro it’s just miles worse than Murder. Mana efficiency >>> the other things Ob does
Ya I agree to an extent. Cast Down will certainly remove the blocker, just like Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted, but wont do an additional 3 damage. Maybe that 3 damage will be relevant on some games. Definitely worth considering.
EDIT: But then again, you could use that 3 mana that wasn't spent after casting Cast Down to do something else.
I wasn't saying it's fantastic. Just voicing my friend's thought. Ob does kinda represent more than just 2 dmg. Could get up towards 5 or 6 before the game is over.
After playing a bunch of sealed on arena (screw their monetization, btw), I am...
more interested in davriel, up from "don't care at all". It's actually really scary on a board stall.
less interested in kiora, down from "almost certainly great". Sometimes 3 mana colorless ramp just doesnt get you there.
slightly less interested in tibalt, down from "could be a sleeper". It can be hard for both devils to be good, and the lifegain stoppage is really temporary.
Slightly less interested in nahiri, down from "I guess I could be wrong". If the opponent is backpedaling already, or if the board is stalled, she is really poor.
Way up on the simic proliferate guy, from "I guess the weird cubes would want it". Proliferate really means that sometimes you can pump your mana into the smallest aynergy when they have no answer.
/
Also, the format is cool but... like... really volatile. A lot of things get out of hand, sucking the fun out of games. But when that doesn't happen it's pretty novel. I especially like the way they handled mana fixing and proliferate.
I think Proliferate was a sleeper mechanic it's really one of magic's best but since it only appeared in the one set with very few cards people just didn't quite get how useful it is.
Disappointing about Kiora. I think the nature of this format means Nahiri is never going to be good there isn't even any equipment (just one tapper) and its very slow when her passive encourages attacking.
I genuinely use Viral Drake as a finisher in EDH. Hahahah... It is *probably* not good enough for EDH but if you were to consider it a Defender with flying and wither plus the activated ability...
Back when they released Dance with Devils I tested it (I believe I might have been the only one here doing that?), and it was just ok. Tibalt is less mana, but loses instant speed and you don't get two devils at once, which makes a huge difference if you're trying to line up favourable blocks and damage targets. So I'm not expecting him to do better than Dance.
While I think I may well add Burning Prophet myself for the Scry triggers and the fact that it also works with enchantments and artifacts, at least for the spellslinger archetype, Thermo-Alchemist definitely still seems better as a reliable win-con. Just pointing out that this is no straight upgrade: Burning Prophet has wider appeal (also as just a defensive card in more controlling red decks thanks to its point of power) but Thermo-Alchemist is the better dedicated archetype card.
Re: Ob Nix, from limited use in the midnight pre-release, this card is the real deal in any Bx creature deck interested in attacking (skewing more mid-range in curve).
A play pattern emerged in rolling a few creatures out the gate to start swinging, when Ob Nix comes down turn 5 and kills their MVP and lava spikes them, you continue to pressure their life total - what happens then is they are often uncomfortably faced with having to swing out at Ob (because not to means their blocker dies anyway and they get lava spiked again), usually allowing you to close out on your next attack step.
Edit: Also noting that the Jace Beleren-lite Narset, Parter of Veils seems a bit stronger than an initial glance might reveal; getting to activate a Search for Azcanta[ twice should often hit in a limited deck (again, she can grab any non-creature/non-land, which is a substantial gain over an Augur ETB).
I never gave burning prophet a thought, for some reason. But upon further review it makes some sense. The floor is just soooooo much higher than thermo alchemist, and pinging for 1 might not actually outpace +1/+0 by more than a point or two depending on how the board states go.
As a turn 2 play it is pretty solid, and the scry 1 to find more fuel may close a game out faster than pinging.
//
I've been purposely avoiding the recent Ob Nix talk because I didn't feel comfortable falling on either side anymore. It wouldn't surprise me if it was ridiculous (blasting two things and dealing 6 damage) or terrible (killing one thing dealing 3, and then giving your opponent too much card advantage because they were close to stabilizing anyway)
I don't think Narset is good enough. On turn 3, if you're casting a draw spell, chances are pretty good that you are sacrificing the tempo because you need lands. Between this and her double blue in the casting cost, you are probably better off casting a more generalist 3-4 drop draw spell.
Thermo still seems drastically better in aggro, especially in Izzet, since it threatens to finish off the game even when the board gets stalled
Prophet does have upside for midrange/control decks since it gets to scry and actually blocks with a point of power (or more), but for that role I think I'd rather find a different card entirely
When your opponent is at 3 or less, alchemists pings are surely more threatening. But at what point is digging for gas more relevant than burning it? 5 life? 7?
5 life means casting a Searing Spear + untapping on the ensuing turn is a win for the Thermo-Alchemist player, so yeah I definitely still want it there
At some life total point pings stop mattering (probably at about 7 in most board states), but if you're a deck that wants a pinger... you've probably lost anyway, whether or not you're scrying. It's a little like the old "what if you draw Jackal Pup on turn ten?" argument.
Again, Prophet has much better play in decks where your opponent's life total is less important, and there's certainly a shortage of flexible midrange red 2's. I'm just not convinced that its use in those decks is enough upside when Jackal Pup'ing people is still the best thing that red can do in Peasant cube
I dont know if the comparison to jackal pup is apt. because pupping on t1 adds to the overall DPS so much more than a 1/1 or having no play whatsoever. This would be comparing pup to a 1/1 that scryed every turn or so, or something.
Ultimately, we need to get peoples life totals down to zero. And there has to be a life-points:scry1 ratio that evens out in aggro.
For example, if you had the option to play 2 mana for 4 face damage vs 2 mana for 3 face damage and scry 1, which do you choose? What if that was scry 2?
Considering that this new card can actually deal damage naturally (and can do more with each spell), it's not even like we are merely trading 1 damage for 1 scry. It's probably closer to 1 damage for scry 2.
At some point scrying adds up to "draw a burn spell", evening out the damage. I just dont know where that is.
I mean, besides me, I wonder how many people play Magma Jet but not Searing Spear variants? It is not a fully apt comparison since those are one-shots rather than long term investments but fits Leelue's thought experiment.
I still need to decide on two white cards, a black card, and a green non-creature card. I considered Bleeding Edge but there are already enough kill spell creatures in black, and I do not want them to be like Burn in red.
In the end, I did not add Nahiri, either. However,
Edit: First draft since WAR updates, P1P1 Saheeli. Not getting a lot of instants/sorceries passed but an interesting take on how Planeswalker decks might look: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1106820
Prophet of course CAN deal damage naturally but it's not guaranteed -- it's so much worse at dealing with a bunch of incidental control cards ranging from walls to Sea Gate Oracle types to deathtouch to tappers to them just having a 3/3 or both halves of an Eldrazi Skyspawner or something. In that case Prophet scries for 1 and deals 0 damage while Thermo is dealing 2.
Also, we've had 1/3 prowess dudes for 2 (in both red and white) for a while. They have two upsides (triggering off more types of spells and boosting toughness) and see I think literally zero play.
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I agree. I feel the ability to stop lifegain in any red deck is huge. Whether its for an aggressive burn deck or for the red control decks that show up occasionally in my cube I feel Tibalt offers a nice way to prevent the lifegain that is everywhere in my cube.
And a little embarrassing to see that I said "a factor of magnitude" instead of "an order of magnitude".
But otherwise, I still feel pretty justified.
For reference, you dont need a multiple of 5 necessarily. It is better if you can find 5 whole cards worth adding that perfectly line up the colors, but thats a very hard ask. I still prefer to look for doubles and triangles of cards that can go in, if it means playing better cards over filler monocolored alternatives.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
turns 1-4, get in some sweet dmg, maybe opponent down to 8.
opponent turn 4 plays a 4drop blocker and passes.
turn 5, you play Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted, blow up they blocker (take 2), get in for some more combat dmg, pass (take 1)
How often could that kind of situation occur? Got me thinking.
EDIT: But then again, you could use that 3 mana that wasn't spent after casting Cast Down to do something else.
hmm hmm hmm.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
more interested in davriel, up from "don't care at all". It's actually really scary on a board stall.
less interested in kiora, down from "almost certainly great". Sometimes 3 mana colorless ramp just doesnt get you there.
slightly less interested in tibalt, down from "could be a sleeper". It can be hard for both devils to be good, and the lifegain stoppage is really temporary.
Slightly less interested in nahiri, down from "I guess I could be wrong". If the opponent is backpedaling already, or if the board is stalled, she is really poor.
Way up on the simic proliferate guy, from "I guess the weird cubes would want it". Proliferate really means that sometimes you can pump your mana into the smallest aynergy when they have no answer.
/
Also, the format is cool but... like... really volatile. A lot of things get out of hand, sucking the fun out of games. But when that doesn't happen it's pretty novel. I especially like the way they handled mana fixing and proliferate.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Disappointing about Kiora. I think the nature of this format means Nahiri is never going to be good there isn't even any equipment (just one tapper) and its very slow when her passive encourages attacking.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
(Yeah, not good enough.)
bleeding edge <-- cast down, more interesting.
teferi's time twist <-- quickling, +1/+1.
burning prophet <-- thermo-alchemist, upgrade imo.
eternal taskmaster <-- wretched anurid, no one plays it.
saheeli, sublime artificer <-- jilt, fav card in the set.
evolution sage <-- manaplasm, +1/+1.
paradise druid <-- borderland explorer, upgrade.
kasmina, enigmatic mentor <-- tetsuko umezawa, fugitive, better on its own.
kiora, behemoth beckoner <-- snakeform, running enchant lands.
merfolk skydiver <-- lorescale coatl, nice mana-sink.
mowu, loyal companion <-- druid's familiar, +1/+1.
pledge of unity <-- travel preparations, instant speed.
aven eternal <-- sprite noble, no one plays it.
A play pattern emerged in rolling a few creatures out the gate to start swinging, when Ob Nix comes down turn 5 and kills their MVP and lava spikes them, you continue to pressure their life total - what happens then is they are often uncomfortably faced with having to swing out at Ob (because not to means their blocker dies anyway and they get lava spiked again), usually allowing you to close out on your next attack step.
Edit: Also noting that the Jace Beleren-lite Narset, Parter of Veils seems a bit stronger than an initial glance might reveal; getting to activate a Search for Azcanta[ twice should often hit in a limited deck (again, she can grab any non-creature/non-land, which is a substantial gain over an Augur ETB).
As a turn 2 play it is pretty solid, and the scry 1 to find more fuel may close a game out faster than pinging.
//
I've been purposely avoiding the recent Ob Nix talk because I didn't feel comfortable falling on either side anymore. It wouldn't surprise me if it was ridiculous (blasting two things and dealing 6 damage) or terrible (killing one thing dealing 3, and then giving your opponent too much card advantage because they were close to stabilizing anyway)
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Prophet does have upside for midrange/control decks since it gets to scry and actually blocks with a point of power (or more), but for that role I think I'd rather find a different card entirely
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
At some life total point pings stop mattering (probably at about 7 in most board states), but if you're a deck that wants a pinger... you've probably lost anyway, whether or not you're scrying. It's a little like the old "what if you draw Jackal Pup on turn ten?" argument.
Again, Prophet has much better play in decks where your opponent's life total is less important, and there's certainly a shortage of flexible midrange red 2's. I'm just not convinced that its use in those decks is enough upside when Jackal Pup'ing people is still the best thing that red can do in Peasant cube
Ultimately, we need to get peoples life totals down to zero. And there has to be a life-points:scry1 ratio that evens out in aggro.
For example, if you had the option to play 2 mana for 4 face damage vs 2 mana for 3 face damage and scry 1, which do you choose? What if that was scry 2?
Considering that this new card can actually deal damage naturally (and can do more with each spell), it's not even like we are merely trading 1 damage for 1 scry. It's probably closer to 1 damage for scry 2.
At some point scrying adds up to "draw a burn spell", evening out the damage. I just dont know where that is.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I still need to decide on two white cards, a black card, and a green non-creature card. I considered Bleeding Edge but there are already enough kill spell creatures in black, and I do not want them to be like Burn in red.
In the end, I did not add Nahiri, either. However,
Kiora or Sturdy Hatchling?
Edit: First draft since WAR updates, P1P1 Saheeli. Not getting a lot of instants/sorceries passed but an interesting take on how Planeswalker decks might look: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1106820
Also, we've had 1/3 prowess dudes for 2 (in both red and white) for a while. They have two upsides (triggering off more types of spells and boosting toughness) and see I think literally zero play.