At 360 you're probably going to end up with something like 55-60 cards for each color, 30 for the guilds, the rest for lands (probably around 20-30) and artifacts (another 20-30).
the best way to evaluate a cube is to start somewhere (throw together all cards that seem fun or strong), play it and then throw out underperforming cards and add stuff that support the drafted archetypes. after 2 or 3 drafts the cube should have a balanced and fun experience. it takes a lot of time to browse through all available cards though.
on 360 youll be able to flesh out certain archetypes really well, but drafting might become railroading (obvious picks). it also becomes boring much faster. i still think its the best size for somewhat competitve drafts, because the pool stays the same.
My 360 peasant list runs 50 WUBRG, 30 Multi (3 per guild, no Shards/Wedges), 80 colorless (including lands). Personally I think 360 is the perfect spot for peasant cubes. I might go up to 405 eventually, but the power level really starts to drop off after that.
the best way to evaluate a cube is to start somewhere (throw together all cards that seem fun or strong), play it and then throw out underperforming cards and add stuff that support the drafted archetypes. after 2 or 3 drafts the cube should have a balanced and fun experience. it takes a lot of time to browse through all available cards though.
on 360 youll be able to flesh out certain archetypes really well, but drafting might become railroading (obvious picks). it also becomes boring much faster. i still think its the best size for somewhat competitve drafts, because the pool stays the same.
Yeah we've done a few sealed since some of the players are new-ish or haven't played in a long time. The larger cube makes it feel like there is a large gap in power level between the bottom and the top
My 360 peasant list runs 50 WUBRG, 30 Multi (3 per guild, no Shards/Wedges), 80 colorless (including lands). Personally I think 360 is the perfect spot for peasant cubes. I might go up to 405 eventually, but the power level really starts to drop off after that.
That's kind of how I felt as well. There are some powerful cards, but a whole lot of "meh" cards. I actually really like your cube and was thinking of copying either yours or VariSami's cube when I cut down. I saw you were looking to slot in some cards on your thread but I think it hasn't been updated in a while!
That's kind of how I felt as well. There are some powerful cards, but a whole lot of "meh" cards. I actually really like your cube and was thinking of copying either yours or VariSami's cube when I cut down. I saw you were looking to slot in some cards on your thread but I think it hasn't been updated in a while!
The CubeTutor is up to date. Most of what I'm missing are more expensive older uncommons (like Sylvan Library and Demonic Tutor).
That's kind of how I felt as well. There are some powerful cards, but a whole lot of "meh" cards. I actually really like your cube and was thinking of copying either yours or VariSami's cube when I cut down. I saw you were looking to slot in some cards on your thread but I think it hasn't been updated in a while!
The CubeTutor is up to date. Most of what I'm missing are more expensive older uncommons (like Sylvan Library and Demonic Tutor).
What would you cut for those if you had them? Are those the only two you're wishing you had still?
I am honoured that my list would be among the templates. If you are cutting down, the approach of starting with gold cards is definitely correct, especially since so many colours have trouble supporting a section larger than around three (especially Boros). Other places definitely inclyde the blue and green top-end creatures, blue instants, and Naya 2-3 drop creatures. I think you can probably get a good feel for which slots would be bloated if you started hacking away just by looking at the visual on the standard list on Cubetutor: if a portion appears unproportionate at a glance, it probably is. I would wager that the biggets problem comes with the qualitative changes a smaller list introduces since specific things need to be supported more. One of the biggest changes is probably the amount of top-end finishers: only the best really make the cut if you want to make sure you also have sufficient support for more aggressive strategies.
I am honoured that my list would be among the templates. If you are cutting down, the approach of starting with gold cards is definitely correct, especially since so many colours have trouble supporting a section larger than around three (especially Boros). Other places definitely inclyde the blue and green top-end creatures, blue instants, and Naya 2-3 drop creatures. I think you can probably get a good feel for which slots would be bloated if you started hacking away just by looking at the visual on the standard list on Cubetutor: if a portion appears unproportionate at a glance, it probably is. I would wager that the biggets problem comes with the qualitative changes a smaller list introduces since specific things need to be supported more. One of the biggest changes is probably the amount of top-end finishers: only the best really make the cut if you want to make sure you also have sufficient support for more aggressive strategies.
Thanks for the tips! I stumbled upon your list multiple times! Looks like it's one of the most drafted peasant cubes on cubetutor
The power level drop felt pretty big at 540, What were your reasons for going 390 instead of 360? (390 being a bit more random of a number)
I just have periods of procrastination and can complete a draft a draft on CubeTutor in five minutes.
390 is my choice because I do want there to be some variation in an 8-person draft pod or 4-person sealed pod. People cannot expect with absolute certainty that all the cards will be in the total pool. However, as Leelue stated at some point in the past: there is also no reason to only use multiples of 90. 30 extra hits the sweet spot for me, given the amount of archetype-grounding cards (Worm Harvest, Rise from the Tides, Intangible Virtue) that you still want to *probably* be in the pool even when it should not be a given.
With multiples of 15 (or whatever your pack size is) you're making sure the expansion works for sealed, draft variants like grid draft or just for having an extra player over. There isn't much of a reason not to have multiples of 15, unless you're very sure those scenarios never happen for you.
With multiples of 15 (or whatever your pack size is) you're making sure the expansion works for sealed, draft variants like grid draft or just for having an extra player over. There isn't much of a reason not to have multiples of 15, unless you're very sure those scenarios never happen for you.
Agreed. Also, if I knew my cube was a random number of cards instead, I might lose sleep at night thinking about it.
I just have periods of procrastination and can complete a draft a draft on CubeTutor in five minutes.
390 is my choice because I do want there to be some variation in an 8-person draft pod or 4-person sealed pod. People cannot expect with absolute certainty that all the cards will be in the total pool. However, as Leelue stated at some point in the past: there is also no reason to only use multiples of 90. 30 extra hits the sweet spot for me, given the amount of archetype-grounding cards (Worm Harvest, Rise from the Tides, Intangible Virtue) that you still want to *probably* be in the pool even when it should not be a given.
On that topic, is there a thread or blog somewhere going over what archetypes your cube supports? Regarding the power level of the cube, does it feel balanced with a smaller cube? In our playing with the cube being so big, if somebody picked up a Library/Warhammer/SkullClamp things were immensely in their favor
With multiples of 15 (or whatever your pack size is) you're making sure the expansion works for sealed, draft variants like grid draft or just for having an extra player over. There isn't much of a reason not to have multiples of 15, unless you're very sure those scenarios never happen for you.
Agreed. Also, if I knew my cube was a random number of cards instead, I might lose sleep at night thinking about it.
How has the power level of your cube felt? Are the powerful staples (warhammer/skullclamp/top) polarizing if somebody picks it up? Or does the smaller cube help balance that out? Do you have a good idea what archetypes your cube supports? Would you ever consider Library of Alexandria/Mana Drain in your particular cube?
With multiples of 15 (or whatever your pack size is) you're making sure the expansion works for sealed, draft variants like grid draft or just for having an extra player over. There isn't much of a reason not to have multiples of 15, unless you're very sure those scenarios never happen for you.
Uh, just round down to the nearest "pack size" to see what formats you can do. Extra cards don't hurt that.
If I have exactly enough cards in my cube to do a 7-person Penguin Draft, the cube doesn't immediately explode if I add ten cards which means a random ten will be left out the next time I do 7-person Penguin.
I haven't noticed that anything in particular feels over or under powered. That may be because we predominantly draft an actual powered cube and use the peasant cube more secondary. Moving from drafting Baneslayers and planeswalkers to drafting Radiant, Archangel and Faith's Fetters might have something to do with how I feel about the power level.
Are the powerful staples (warhammer/skullclamp/top) polarizing if somebody picks it up?
Warhammer and Behemoth Sledge can be a bit polarizing if you can't find/didn't draft an answer to them. I haven't found the other commonly referred to as OP in peasant cards that I run (specifically Skullclamp) to be over powered or polarizing at all. It often tables, to be honest. It's a great card, but without something like Bitterblossom or other repeated token makers to truly abuse it, it ends up being a bit more fair (for cube, anyway).
I believe that being a smaller sized cube definitely helps. You're never stuck with the filler that tends to be needed to fill up a 540 list while your opponent was lucky enough to draft something more powerful. This is why I prefer to keep my peasant cube smaller.
Do you have a good idea what archetypes your cube supports?
To be honest, I didn't really try to push certain archetypes when I put it together, but rather looked at including "good" cards and just let the archetypes show up on their own. There's certainly room to look at pushing specific archetypes and making swaps as needed for the cards to support them. The general aggro/midrange/control is definitely present and supported, though.
Would you ever consider Library of Alexandria/Mana Drain in your particular cube?
No. While I do like having cards like Warhammer that feel like you opened a bomb, I think Library and Mana Drain are just too over powered for this environment. You can include a card like Warhammer and also include answers to it across multiple colors so people don't always just die to it. Sometimes you cast it and run away with the game, other times you cast it and it's immediately Disenchanted. With something like Mana Drain there aren't really answers to it. It gets cast and just creates a feel bad that I don't want in my peasant environment. Library has a similar effect. It would literally be the only must answer land in the cube and having it played against you early just puts you so far behind. I think cards like this are fine in powered environments where everyone is playing with these kinds of toys, but having a UB control player drop a Library turn one against a RG midrange player and then follow that up with a Mana Drain a few turns later to counter their monster just feels like the UB player has a leg up on the entire table.
The lifegain duals are a relatively easy cut, they're a bit narrow and your mana base is good enough without them (unless you really want the lifegain triggers for some reason).
Your numbers don't quite add up though, unless you're considering two different cube sizes. Cutting ten colorless and 10 guild cards gives you 54 cards for each section at 360.
I don't think it's awkward, it's pretty similar to what I'm doing. Four guild cards is probably the maximum at 360/400, but I like it, personally. Others won't. Try it out and see if you feel like there are too many guild cards floating around.
If you're trying to support multiple 3 colour decks then you probably want a bit higher than ~25 fixers, but other than that guild cards don't really require much more fixing than normal.
I think a lot of people value playable count pretty highly, thus low numbers of guild cards.
The ten gain duals and the ten tri lands paired with Vivids and the rainbow lands that we have available have been sufficient here for 360 fixing. If you're looking to support two color decks with the occasional 3+ color deck, I think this is a great set up. If you want to support 3 and 4 color decks each draft, then I'd probably add in another cycle of ten duals in addition to these.
I also like multicolor cards quite a bit, but again just feel like some peasant guilds lack in quality after the first couple. Of course some are overflowing with good options. You could always try four per guild and scale it back if, after a couple drafts, you feel like you're seeing some of them go late or ride sideboards even in those decks.
I have Ten Gain Lands, Ten Bounce lands and Ten Tri lands. No Vivids, no Signits
I am perhaps a little too fond of multicoloured cards.
I have 30 guild cards 20 Hybrid cards and then 10 off colour flashback cards. Each of them I consider different categories and not just generic multicolour that many people seem to.
Good point about supporting three color decks. If that's something that's supposed to happen regularly, then yeah, the gain lands should probably stay.
on 360 youll be able to flesh out certain archetypes really well, but drafting might become railroading (obvious picks). it also becomes boring much faster. i still think its the best size for somewhat competitve drafts, because the pool stays the same.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Yeah we've done a few sealed since some of the players are new-ish or haven't played in a long time. The larger cube makes it feel like there is a large gap in power level between the bottom and the top
That's kind of how I felt as well. There are some powerful cards, but a whole lot of "meh" cards. I actually really like your cube and was thinking of copying either yours or VariSami's cube when I cut down. I saw you were looking to slot in some cards on your thread but I think it hasn't been updated in a while!
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
The CubeTutor is up to date. Most of what I'm missing are more expensive older uncommons (like Sylvan Library and Demonic Tutor).
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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What would you cut for those if you had them? Are those the only two you're wishing you had still?
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
This is what I currently have as placeholders for missing cards.
Path to Exile -> Fragmentize
Force of Will -> Arcane Denial
Propaganda -> Repeal
Demonic Tutor -> Darkblast
Necromancy -> Exhume
Devoted Druid -> Krosan Tusker
Sylvan Library -> Harmonize
Kitchen Finks -> Trostani's Summoner
Ancient Tomb -> Quicksand
City of Brass -> Stalking Stones
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Awesome thanks for the input!
Thanks for the tips! I stumbled upon your list multiple times! Looks like it's one of the most drafted peasant cubes on cubetutor
The power level drop felt pretty big at 540, What were your reasons for going 390 instead of 360? (390 being a bit more random of a number)
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
390 is my choice because I do want there to be some variation in an 8-person draft pod or 4-person sealed pod. People cannot expect with absolute certainty that all the cards will be in the total pool. However, as Leelue stated at some point in the past: there is also no reason to only use multiples of 90. 30 extra hits the sweet spot for me, given the amount of archetype-grounding cards (Worm Harvest, Rise from the Tides, Intangible Virtue) that you still want to *probably* be in the pool even when it should not be a given.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Agreed. Also, if I knew my cube was a random number of cards instead, I might lose sleep at night thinking about it.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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On that topic, is there a thread or blog somewhere going over what archetypes your cube supports? Regarding the power level of the cube, does it feel balanced with a smaller cube? In our playing with the cube being so big, if somebody picked up a Library/Warhammer/SkullClamp things were immensely in their favor
How has the power level of your cube felt? Are the powerful staples (warhammer/skullclamp/top) polarizing if somebody picks it up? Or does the smaller cube help balance that out? Do you have a good idea what archetypes your cube supports? Would you ever consider Library of Alexandria/Mana Drain in your particular cube?
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Uh, just round down to the nearest "pack size" to see what formats you can do. Extra cards don't hurt that.
If I have exactly enough cards in my cube to do a 7-person Penguin Draft, the cube doesn't immediately explode if I add ten cards which means a random ten will be left out the next time I do 7-person Penguin.
I haven't noticed that anything in particular feels over or under powered. That may be because we predominantly draft an actual powered cube and use the peasant cube more secondary. Moving from drafting Baneslayers and planeswalkers to drafting Radiant, Archangel and Faith's Fetters might have something to do with how I feel about the power level.
Warhammer and Behemoth Sledge can be a bit polarizing if you can't find/didn't draft an answer to them. I haven't found the other commonly referred to as OP in peasant cards that I run (specifically Skullclamp) to be over powered or polarizing at all. It often tables, to be honest. It's a great card, but without something like Bitterblossom or other repeated token makers to truly abuse it, it ends up being a bit more fair (for cube, anyway).
I believe that being a smaller sized cube definitely helps. You're never stuck with the filler that tends to be needed to fill up a 540 list while your opponent was lucky enough to draft something more powerful. This is why I prefer to keep my peasant cube smaller.
To be honest, I didn't really try to push certain archetypes when I put it together, but rather looked at including "good" cards and just let the archetypes show up on their own. There's certainly room to look at pushing specific archetypes and making swaps as needed for the cards to support them. The general aggro/midrange/control is definitely present and supported, though.
No. While I do like having cards like Warhammer that feel like you opened a bomb, I think Library and Mana Drain are just too over powered for this environment. You can include a card like Warhammer and also include answers to it across multiple colors so people don't always just die to it. Sometimes you cast it and run away with the game, other times you cast it and it's immediately Disenchanted. With something like Mana Drain there aren't really answers to it. It gets cast and just creates a feel bad that I don't want in my peasant environment. Library has a similar effect. It would literally be the only must answer land in the cube and having it played against you early just puts you so far behind. I think cards like this are fine in powered environments where everyone is playing with these kinds of toys, but having a UB control player drop a Library turn one against a RG midrange player and then follow that up with a Mana Drain a few turns later to counter their monster just feels like the UB player has a leg up on the entire table.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Finally making some progress cutting down: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/98055
I'm a bit torn on doing
50 each color, 40 Multi, 70 colorless - Leave in more mana fixing (lifegain duals from khanhs), trim down individual colors more
60 ea Color, 30 Multi, 60 colorless- Cut the lifegain duals from Khans and the multi cards as a result.
2nd option feels easier as I'm having trouble cutting each color down. But unsure if one is a "better" option.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Your numbers don't quite add up though, unless you're considering two different cube sizes. Cutting ten colorless and 10 guild cards gives you 54 cards for each section at 360.
Would cutting the 10 duals but NOT the 10 guild cards make the cube too awkward? Too many guild cards and not a ton of fixing?
I feel like most 360 cubes run a low number of guild cards.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
I think a lot of people value playable count pretty highly, thus low numbers of guild cards.
I also like multicolor cards quite a bit, but again just feel like some peasant guilds lack in quality after the first couple. Of course some are overflowing with good options. You could always try four per guild and scale it back if, after a couple drafts, you feel like you're seeing some of them go late or ride sideboards even in those decks.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I am perhaps a little too fond of multicoloured cards.
I have 30 guild cards 20 Hybrid cards and then 10 off colour flashback cards. Each of them I consider different categories and not just generic multicolour that many people seem to.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own