So I meant to make this thread a bit earlier when the Modern cube was still up online, but... well, I'm almost on time
The cube featured a handful of cards that are usually left out of our Peasant cubes here, and I figure that's good enough reason to fire up some discussion of them.
The long-ish list of cards in question, basically ever C/U card that isn't a 360 staple:
I particularly want to try Oust... but just don't really need more white removal. Also have long wanted a Coldsteel Heart, but foils are 30 bucks. Thoughts?
Hexmage is def so much worse in peasant cubes. Not having planeswalkers or the potential to add Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage means it's pretty much a 2/1 first strike for BB.
I do think a fair number of these have more to do with the Modern card pool than anything else.
I know they had more of a cycling build-around theme with cards like Drake Haven available, which makes Wander in Death and Lay Claim more relevant.
Certain removal spells (Oust, Devour Flesh, Lignify, Selesnya Charm) become more important when the creature pool has more cards with protection, hexproof, and indestructible. Heck, I got my turn 3 Progenitus blown out in Vintage Cube by Diabolic Edict, and I am pretty sure that is not getting played by many of us.
The Modern cube has a lot of great land cycles that we do not (typically) play, making it easier to run the double or triple mana spells (Knight of Meadowgrain, Spiketail Drakeling, Flame Javelin).
So many great threats in the Modern cube are Planeswalkers, which bumps the value of Negate, Spell Pierce, Lash Out and definitely Vampire Hexmage.
Another big chuck of cards is based on either card advantage or ramp, which I suppose you would emphasize more when the threats are much more powerful and/or expensive.
Everything that does not fit into one of those categories is probably borderline to bad for us depending on our cube preferences. Some specific thoughts on certain cards from my experience: Knight of Meadowgrain- I would also rather have Knight of the Holy Nimbus which trades lifelink for almost never dying early. Careful Consideration- I like having a bigger version of this draw/discard effect for graveyard or spell based synergies (think Cryptic Serpent) Disfigure- I like colors having more cheap interactive spells, especially for combat, so I have this in currently. Forked Bolt- I think Forked Bolt plays more like a control card than an aggro card and I would rather have burn that is much better for aggro and possibly slightly worse for control. Bloodwater Entity- I am currently playing it, but have yet to see it do great work. There is potential there to reclaim some great spells, but anything less than that seems subpar.
Yeah there's like 10 cards on that list that would make me raise an eyebrow if I saw them in a list. Most of them are tier-2 staples. Cards like Knight of Meadowgrain were staples a few years ago until they got replaced by more powerful options (Consul's Lieutenant)
MTGO still hasn't done any Pauper / Peasant cube offerings. They do powered and unpowered all the time, and the special ones have been, IIRC, the steaming garbage of Legendary Cube (twice! though I think V2.0 was less steaming); "Twisted Pie" which won the vote/contest; and also a couple iterations of Modern Cube.
Mist Raven is probably a staple, it's just been out of my cube for a while. This list also had Aether Adept, which I guess makes sense since Man-O'-War is out of contention, but all of them look a bit silly when compared to Venser, Shaper Savant (which would ALSO be a pretty reasonable Masters Set uncommon in like 2021, and is only 2-3 bucks now as well)
Mist raven is a flying man'o war.. extremely strong for cubes with blink, I also have flying matters. Viridian emissary. It has been a bit in and out of my cube. I really don't like x/1s in my cube because I have so many tokens. But people are not going to want block this early so it has a sort of unblockibility. Also an elf which matters. Grapple with the past, I think it is the best card of its type. the question is do you want this type of card. I think it is better than any of the green dredge cards and better than commune with the gods and mulch since you get to pick a card already in your grave. Bloodwater Entity. Buying back a powerful card, perhaps the removal you need or the burn to win. has prowress and flying both relevent abilities. I was playing the narrow nivix cyclops before this and the other good Izzet card is izzet charm which is super versitile but overall all the modes are meh. as my third izzet card it is strong enough. Pilgrim's Eye, flying artifact with a relevent ability. in it goes. i have artifacts and flying synergies its typically a late pick but can stitch a deck together.
Selesyna charm was something of a dissappointment I think part of it is that white has all this cheap removal for big creatures and green has better pump spells.
*edit* oh MODO cube sorry I don't play magic online so I didn't understand.
Not sure how relevant this is to the current discussion, but I have seen the Modern cube receive a lot of criticism. One streamer posted a list of over 100 cards that they had never put in their deck or seen played more than once. The cube has an unusually large power gap between the cream and the crop. Taking this into account, it might not be that surprising to see a lot of peasant cards in there.
That list she posted is pretty subjective IMO. While there is definitely some trash on that which I agree shouldn't be in any list, there are also a number of cards that I know I personally cast a lot to great success. Like, what am I supposed to get out of that data? That elesh norn and siege gang commander and etc etc etc aren't cubeworthy or something?
That being said, ~40 of those are hard to defend. But that means there are like 60 cards from that list which wouldn't be embarrassing/bad in a regular cube. So while that list clearly needs work, I think people are letting their deck biases influence their judgment on the quality of a cube too much.
Yeah, a good amount of those cards are solidly cubeable, but there are some fairly cutty cards you wouldn't see in the average list that seem fun, like Oust, Spiketail Hatchling, Lash Out, and Masked Admirers. I might test Oust as a white tempo card...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
~400 Peasant++ : List : Draft
Warning: Not for the durdly-hearted!
Oust is a *lot* better than you would think. I used to hate it, literally mentioned it in an article trashing it ~4-5 years ago, but in the last year or two I've enjoyed it. It's way better the faster your deck is, but that's really not a problem with white.
Also, I went through that list and found 53 cards that either I've enjoyed in my own decks or have seen others use successfully in a cube similar to modern, higher powered ones actually:
Linvala, the Preserver
Disenchant
Forsake the Worldly
Glorious Anthem
Chasm Skulker
Curator of Mysteries
Vampire Hexmage
Geralf's Messenger
Liliana's Specter
Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Puppeteer Clique
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Griselbrand
Unburial Rites
Banefire
Devil's Play
Greater Gargadon
Ancient Grudge
Through the Breach
Destructive Force
Bonfire of the Damned
Release the Gremlins
Flinthoof Boar
Mayor of Avabruck
Strangleroot Geist
Wickerbough Elder
Rampaging Baloths
Icy Manipulator
Lodestone Golem
Perilous Myr
Adorned Pouncer
Honor of the Pure
Emeria Angel
Angel of Serenity
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Spear of Heliod
Tidings
Asylum Visitor
Disfigure
Hypnotic Specter
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Graveborn Muse
Bloodgift Demon
Puppeteer Clique
Siege-Gang Commander
Wildfire
Sylvan Advocate
Vengevine
Falkenrath Aristocrat
Murderous Redcap
Qasali Pridemage
Voice of Resurgence
Obzedat, Ghost Council
I don't think any of those cards are completely unplayable, some are great. I think the issue with this cube lies less in the power of the cards but the context and composition, and I think the issue with her list kinda lies on her preference. Like, how you gonna tell me Voice of Resurgence on that list means anything to me other than she doesn't like the card? Maybe some of the niche ones, like Geralf's Messenger, have a legit argument--but they also have a legit argument for them. If anything, a lot of these cards aren't bad and would still be good if they weren't outclassed.
THAT BEING SAID, 47 cards that are embarrassing in a list is not where you want to be. Embarrassing is a stretch for some of them, but even in modern borders there are some better options for the cards included. But, it's not as bad as whatever that list of 100 cards is implying.
This is all tangent, so excuse me, but Im not really taking too much stock in that list, it's useful for her but it stretches to make whatever point she was trying to.
---------
As an aside on creating a cube of rejects: my brother is slowly working on an 'on-deck binder cube', which will consist of cards he's cut from cube in the ~9-10 years he's been cubing. It's no where close to being done yet, but it's cool to see the binder grow and where it could progress.
Nah bro, I just put it in that list of cards I said I've seen be good because I had a stroke while I was making that list and forgot what I was doing. Good catch!!!
there's the quality tone and community engagement I've come to expect from the MTGS moderation team, awesome
Yeah, I was rude there, so excuse me I should've done better. No question, I shouldn't fight rude with rude and I'm sorry for dipping.
But what good does it do to ask the question like Leelue did as if it's impossible to believe or that I couldn't have seen that? Guarantee I don't answer that way if he just asks me to clarify. You want to talk about community engagement, start with that post.
I'm happy to have that discussion without dealing with the rhetoric question I literally answer with the title of that list. Next time I'll just answer 'yes' as it brings just as much as his question did without it being rude like our posts were.
Regardless, I'm not a moderator and nor would I want to be, soooo yeah.
As an aside on creating a cube of rejects: my brother is slowly working on an 'on-deck binder cube', which will consist of cards he's cut from cube in the ~9-10 years he's been cubing. It's no where close to being done yet, but it's cool to see the binder grow and where it could progress.
I like this idea. I'm intrigued by a "bad" cube, but I feel the balancing act will actually take quite some effort to get it right. When starting with a subset of cards like this, that's probably already almost taken care of.
You've seen perilous myr in a good deck in a real cube?
I have. I love Perilous Myr. It's especially good in decks with things like Skeleton Shard and Myr Retriever, but it's totally passable without any kind of artifact theme. I also like Oust a lot.
I'll also note that I play almost every card on that list. The only ones that I don't like are the counterspells. Negate, Spell Pierce, and Essence Scatter have all proven too narrow for me, but not being limited to modern, I've always had access to better counterspells. I also don't play Peasant, but I play with a lot of the cards found there, and I had to come to Perilous Myr's defense. It's a very small commitment of a card that almost always pull's its weight.
As an aside on creating a cube of rejects: my brother is slowly working on an 'on-deck binder cube', which will consist of cards he's cut from cube in the ~9-10 years he's been cubing. It's no where close to being done yet, but it's cool to see the binder grow and where it could progress.
I like this idea. I'm intrigued by a "bad" cube, but I feel the balancing act will actually take quite some effort to get it right. When starting with a subset of cards like this, that's probably already almost taken care of.
Yeah right now it would be filled with a lot of 'good stuff'--most of the archetype enablers have stuck around, and all the sections with holes/weaker sections would look that much worse. Still, you'd be surprised with the quality of a backup cube.
The cube featured a handful of cards that are usually left out of our Peasant cubes here, and I figure that's good enough reason to fire up some discussion of them.
The long-ish list of cards in question, basically ever C/U card that isn't a 360 staple:
I particularly want to try Oust... but just don't really need more white removal. Also have long wanted a Coldsteel Heart, but foils are 30 bucks. Thoughts?
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I know they had more of a cycling build-around theme with cards like Drake Haven available, which makes Wander in Death and Lay Claim more relevant.
Certain removal spells (Oust, Devour Flesh, Lignify, Selesnya Charm) become more important when the creature pool has more cards with protection, hexproof, and indestructible. Heck, I got my turn 3 Progenitus blown out in Vintage Cube by Diabolic Edict, and I am pretty sure that is not getting played by many of us.
The Modern cube has a lot of great land cycles that we do not (typically) play, making it easier to run the double or triple mana spells (Knight of Meadowgrain, Spiketail Drakeling, Flame Javelin).
So many great threats in the Modern cube are Planeswalkers, which bumps the value of Negate, Spell Pierce, Lash Out and definitely Vampire Hexmage.
Another big chuck of cards is based on either card advantage or ramp, which I suppose you would emphasize more when the threats are much more powerful and/or expensive.
Everything that does not fit into one of those categories is probably borderline to bad for us depending on our cube preferences. Some specific thoughts on certain cards from my experience:
Knight of Meadowgrain- I would also rather have Knight of the Holy Nimbus which trades lifelink for almost never dying early.
Careful Consideration- I like having a bigger version of this draw/discard effect for graveyard or spell based synergies (think Cryptic Serpent)
Disfigure- I like colors having more cheap interactive spells, especially for combat, so I have this in currently.
Forked Bolt- I think Forked Bolt plays more like a control card than an aggro card and I would rather have burn that is much better for aggro and possibly slightly worse for control.
Bloodwater Entity- I am currently playing it, but have yet to see it do great work. There is potential there to reclaim some great spells, but anything less than that seems subpar.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Outlaws of Thunder Junction
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Wait, this wasn't a cu/be?
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Mist Raven is probably a staple, it's just been out of my cube for a while. This list also had Aether Adept, which I guess makes sense since Man-O'-War is out of contention, but all of them look a bit silly when compared to Venser, Shaper Savant (which would ALSO be a pretty reasonable Masters Set uncommon in like 2021, and is only 2-3 bucks now as well)
I play 5 of those cards.
mist raven
Viridian Emissary
Grapple with the past
Bloodwater Entity
Pilgrim's Eye
Mist raven is a flying man'o war.. extremely strong for cubes with blink, I also have flying matters.
Viridian emissary. It has been a bit in and out of my cube. I really don't like x/1s in my cube because I have so many tokens. But people are not going to want block this early so it has a sort of unblockibility. Also an elf which matters.
Grapple with the past, I think it is the best card of its type. the question is do you want this type of card. I think it is better than any of the green dredge cards and better than commune with the gods and mulch since you get to pick a card already in your grave.
Bloodwater Entity. Buying back a powerful card, perhaps the removal you need or the burn to win. has prowress and flying both relevent abilities. I was playing the narrow nivix cyclops before this and the other good Izzet card is izzet charm which is super versitile but overall all the modes are meh. as my third izzet card it is strong enough.
Pilgrim's Eye, flying artifact with a relevent ability. in it goes. i have artifacts and flying synergies its typically a late pick but can stitch a deck together.
Selesyna charm was something of a dissappointment I think part of it is that white has all this cheap removal for big creatures and green has better pump spells.
*edit* oh MODO cube sorry I don't play magic online so I didn't understand.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
That list she posted is pretty subjective IMO. While there is definitely some trash on that which I agree shouldn't be in any list, there are also a number of cards that I know I personally cast a lot to great success. Like, what am I supposed to get out of that data? That elesh norn and siege gang commander and etc etc etc aren't cubeworthy or something?
That being said, ~40 of those are hard to defend. But that means there are like 60 cards from that list which wouldn't be embarrassing/bad in a regular cube. So while that list clearly needs work, I think people are letting their deck biases influence their judgment on the quality of a cube too much.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
the modo cubes have a big problem where they support decks that can't compete.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Warning: Not for the durdly-hearted!
Also, I went through that list and found 53 cards that either I've enjoyed in my own decks or have seen others use successfully in a cube similar to modern, higher powered ones actually:
Linvala, the Preserver
Disenchant
Forsake the Worldly
Glorious Anthem
Chasm Skulker
Curator of Mysteries
Vampire Hexmage
Geralf's Messenger
Liliana's Specter
Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Puppeteer Clique
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Griselbrand
Unburial Rites
Banefire
Devil's Play
Greater Gargadon
Ancient Grudge
Through the Breach
Destructive Force
Bonfire of the Damned
Release the Gremlins
Flinthoof Boar
Mayor of Avabruck
Strangleroot Geist
Wickerbough Elder
Rampaging Baloths
Icy Manipulator
Lodestone Golem
Perilous Myr
Adorned Pouncer
Honor of the Pure
Emeria Angel
Angel of Serenity
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Spear of Heliod
Tidings
Asylum Visitor
Disfigure
Hypnotic Specter
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Graveborn Muse
Bloodgift Demon
Puppeteer Clique
Siege-Gang Commander
Wildfire
Sylvan Advocate
Vengevine
Falkenrath Aristocrat
Murderous Redcap
Qasali Pridemage
Voice of Resurgence
Obzedat, Ghost Council
I don't think any of those cards are completely unplayable, some are great. I think the issue with this cube lies less in the power of the cards but the context and composition, and I think the issue with her list kinda lies on her preference. Like, how you gonna tell me Voice of Resurgence on that list means anything to me other than she doesn't like the card? Maybe some of the niche ones, like Geralf's Messenger, have a legit argument--but they also have a legit argument for them. If anything, a lot of these cards aren't bad and would still be good if they weren't outclassed.
THAT BEING SAID, 47 cards that are embarrassing in a list is not where you want to be. Embarrassing is a stretch for some of them, but even in modern borders there are some better options for the cards included. But, it's not as bad as whatever that list of 100 cards is implying.
This is all tangent, so excuse me, but Im not really taking too much stock in that list, it's useful for her but it stretches to make whatever point she was trying to.
---------
As an aside on creating a cube of rejects: my brother is slowly working on an 'on-deck binder cube', which will consist of cards he's cut from cube in the ~9-10 years he's been cubing. It's no where close to being done yet, but it's cool to see the binder grow and where it could progress.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
there's the quality tone and community engagement I've come to expect from the MTGS moderation team, awesome
Yeah, I was rude there, so excuse me I should've done better. No question, I shouldn't fight rude with rude and I'm sorry for dipping.
But what good does it do to ask the question like Leelue did as if it's impossible to believe or that I couldn't have seen that? Guarantee I don't answer that way if he just asks me to clarify. You want to talk about community engagement, start with that post.
I'm happy to have that discussion without dealing with the rhetoric question I literally answer with the title of that list. Next time I'll just answer 'yes' as it brings just as much as his question did without it being rude like our posts were.
Regardless, I'm not a moderator and nor would I want to be, soooo yeah.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I like this idea. I'm intrigued by a "bad" cube, but I feel the balancing act will actually take quite some effort to get it right. When starting with a subset of cards like this, that's probably already almost taken care of.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I have. I love Perilous Myr. It's especially good in decks with things like Skeleton Shard and Myr Retriever, but it's totally passable without any kind of artifact theme. I also like Oust a lot.
I'll also note that I play almost every card on that list. The only ones that I don't like are the counterspells. Negate, Spell Pierce, and Essence Scatter have all proven too narrow for me, but not being limited to modern, I've always had access to better counterspells. I also don't play Peasant, but I play with a lot of the cards found there, and I had to come to Perilous Myr's defense. It's a very small commitment of a card that almost always pull's its weight.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Yeah right now it would be filled with a lot of 'good stuff'--most of the archetype enablers have stuck around, and all the sections with holes/weaker sections would look that much worse. Still, you'd be surprised with the quality of a backup cube.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic