Im also not only complaining about the art, although its probably the biggest elephant in the room.
My main problems with magic today
-worse frame and artworks for a fantasy game than the old ones = boring cards/less immersion
I think the completely other way round (and yes, I started during the old frame times), I like the new border and the artworks more, but art and design is subjective, so...
-removal of manaburn (yes its that huge for vintage)
There are some cards I know it had impact on and I have no idea of vintage, but I know manaburn never mattered in any game I had before I they changed it.
-introduction of planeswalkers
They are powerful, but by no means as broken as you describe them. The new sweepers destroy them, almost every set there is a card that states "destroy target Planeswalker" and red has the least problems of all, as they can just burn them (even very old cards, like Lightning Bolt).
-still stuffing the best cards into blue, and on top even when they´d belong to other colors (Snapcaster Mage, TNN, Treasure Cruise and so forth)
Actually I've got the impression blue gets the weakest cards in the latest sets (besides pretty failed design stuff, like the delve cards)
-removal of "unfun" mechanics like land destruction, discard, cheap counterpells and removal
There are still good discard spells in every set, and there are a lot of cheap counterspells (sure, there is no Counterspell anymore, but there is stuff like Swan Song and other one or two mana counterspells), land destruction is a mechanic I totally understand why people don't like it. It is not nice, if you can't play Magic, but are stuck in a game of Magic. But with the lack of cheap removal, I have to agree.
EDIT: Also, there's Disenchant and friends. There's no 2 mana instant that kills artifacts and pws though. That also shows how much harder pws are to kill.
Do creatures instead of artifacts count? So, Dreadbore (edit: thought it was instant, but still two mana kill a PW) for example? Also, there is Vampire Hexmage which also only costs two mana. Than there is Hero's downfall. Sure, it is 3 mana, but still instant.
Absolutely true. Someone who would never experienced manaburn probably never plays eternal on a competitive level. Often enough you burned for 1 in legacy when you started with something like Dark Ritual into Hymn to Tourach. Generally all the combodecks using Rituals burned themselves. Its also very relevant for variations of stax, which used Metalworker and in modern you have Tron (Urza's Tower) and had Glimmerpost
Actually it would even be relevant to pauper cubes running Burning-Tree Emissary (the flavor!)
In Vintage every other card produces mana and the most problematic deck is indeed stax, because it has no drawback anymore.
And the Planeswalker removal you got there is quite bad. The only reasonable one is the Hexmage and its pretty much limited to Depthscombo. Even though the main enchantmentremoval is W/G there a hundreds of spells which deal with enchantments and most of them are better. Like you can find instant removal for G. Actually there would be an outcry when Walkers became as weak to removal as enchantments.
But yeah, "planewalker" is really no more powerful than "flying", it just depends on the card that it's on. Was JTMS a bad design? Probably. But you being able to attack a PW is HUGE -- there's no planeswalker equivalent of a Moat or a Blood Moon (or The Abyss or Nether Void or even Story Circle or Propaganda) that makes some number of decks say, "Well your spell resolved, I lost 80-100% of my chance to win this game while it's in play no matter what else is going on now".
But yeah, "planewalker" is really no more powerful than "flying", it just depends on the card that it's on. Was JTMS a bad design? Probably. But you being able to attack a PW is HUGE -- there's no planeswalker equivalent of a Moat or a Blood Moon (or The Abyss or Nether Void or even Story Circle or Propaganda) that makes some number of decks say, "Well your spell resolved, I lost 80-100% of my chance to win this game while it's in play no matter what else is going on now".
its repetitive, but the main problem with walkers still is the lack of strong removal. If they printed common removal for CC1 and cheap creatures that ETB killed a walker, no one would complain. besides the walker having haste. Funnily enough, a resolved JtMS and most of the time LotV (one sided abyss+) locks the game more than Abyss (doesnt hit artifact creatures, Nether Void (stops your own development), Story Circle or Propaganda (lol). The last time these cards were played were probably in 1999. The only strong ones are Moat (does nothing against combo) and Blood Moon (punishes greedy manabases) On top, both are sideboard cards.
Walkers aren't THAT prevalent in eternal formats, at least in Legacy. Really the only ones that see consistent play are Dack in vintage, Liliana & Jace in legacy, karn/ugin in tron/12 post, and MAYBE 1 or 2 that aren't played nearly as much. Modern is kind of a different animal, but still. It could be argued that they are rarely seen in Legacy these days at all, at least in comparison to other card types. So, saying Dreadbore is bad because of that reason is really missing the mark.
EDIT: only a few of the top legacy decks play walkers, I missed Chandra in the big red decks that use chalice/ancient tomb/blood moons, the esper stoneblafr decks typically play3-4 total of jtms/lotv, and miracles plays a few Jaces. So it's a stretch to say dreadbore is bad because it's not played in eternal format's when the need for it in eternal formats is low. This conversation is insane lol
What prophecy cards? Abyss and Void are Legends, Propaganda is Tempest and Story Circle Mercadian Masques (cant remember it was ever played in eternal)
Blood Moon crosses the border because a whole meta is infested with decks its good against.
Dreadbore sucks. 2 colored, worst guild, no instant.
we are also not discussing how strong the walkers are in eternal, since those formats still have access to the good stuff, but how bad they are for the game in general.
'dreadbore is bad because it is not played in eternal formats'
'I like legacy because there are no/fewer planeswalkers'
the logic here is absurd and so self-contradictory that it's blowing my mind lol just because a card isn't seeing eternal format play, ESPECIALLY FOR THE OBVIOUS REASONS YOU AGREE WITH, doesn't mean it's bad, just that it doesn't fit.
Humphrey, my prophecy cards remark was directed at someone else. It was a reference on the last page..
Walkers are also "broken" for limited because they are 100% built to play in standard. I would bet that a very large percentage of generalist, pushed cards for standard are busted for limited. That is oart of why they are a mythic rare, drawing them out of the limited cardpool by 50%. The cardtype isn't better than any other, but they make them better than the average card because they want the cards to do well.
Two pages of random *****posting and trolling, really? Is it a slow news day over in peasant camp? Y'all think we can maybe actually talk about commons from Amonkhet instead of getting on soapboxes and ranting about everybody's pet peeves?
Dreadbore is just not a very good (in as, efficiently costed) card, whether it sees play in eternal or not. That mana cost and sorcery speed are very lackluster.
No, it is. It's one for one removal that can kill planeswalkers. There are no other cards that can kill a PW for two, unless Im missing something. The mana cost and sorcery speed is fine for having a two mana answer for walkers. But you don't have to believe me, go to the regular cube's Random Card of the Day forum and read over the recent terminate discussion, Dreadbore is a LOT better than you're giving it credit for.
And re:your point @ leelue, I don't agree with the signature bit that was definitely uncalled for and a bit rude, but the rest of the time he has been chasing the most silly series of complaints without any basis. It would be one thing if it was "I don't like the way things are going, I know I could be in the minority/wrong here for the very clear and obvious reasons pointed out but I still don't like it" it would be one thing, but this entire argument has been the most frustrating series of 'yeah, but...'s moving from one point to the next that I feel like you guys just want to argue for the sake of arguing. If you don't like magic cards or the way things are going that's fine, but don't paint it as us being crazy when reading over this argument is like an exercise in what it's like to go crazy lol
Actually most of them have the same issues as I have with the game and there is a big agreement about Planeswalker basically OP and limited formats being generic.
Maybe I just haven't gotten to that page yet as that thread is huge, but there's barely any mentioning of planeswalkers. It feels like a bigger, messier version of this argument, so you'll understand how I feel about that.
Izor, when I posted that list of 63 cards with gerrard, that's not trolling.
Or when you say there are too many humans, and I clarified that it's the same... Numerically
When you shifted gears and said it's the style of humans you dislike, and I displayed that most humans historically have the same aesthetic that you claim dislike, (and I did ask you to give an example of what you would prefer, as opposed to examples of things you dislike) that's not trolling.
You didn't address the contention that I had about gideons lawkeeper, either (that if they can't reprint things to fit in a plane/set it's needlessly restrictive for a game this old.)
When I butted heads with Humphrey about art, and we debated the merits of different styles, he and I eventually got to be relatively constructive or friendly on those grounds. Which I just say was a pleasant surprise.
I posted in the thread because I was responding to a tangent you went on in a spoiler. It was bothering me for a few days, and I realized I should check how factual it was. So I did.
The large majority of what I had to say was about the conversation. Majority doesnt mean all. Salmo is correct. In a number of ways
As far as I can tell, "modern is the better format now" is a the most common sentiment. I can see why they'd say that, aside from the barrier to entry. I did enjoy what few standard games I played with an energy deck, but I haven't played against everything (cough marvel)
But the solutions they pose are a bit scattershot.
Second and last warning, take the conversation to PMs / related threads. Continuing to even follow up on these conversations on this thread will result in this thread being locked, individual disciplinary action, and deleted posts.
BTW, I think this discussion spawned a similar discussion in the general mtgs forums. There, someone said blue was being gutted and isn't strong
Makes me feel sorta bad for wizards
//
We do have cheap counterspells, just not cheap unconditional ones. There's a lot more design space when counterspell doesn't exist
//
Other than disc, what other colorless cards could deal with an on board enchantment? nonrhetorical question
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430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
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I think the completely other way round (and yes, I started during the old frame times), I like the new border and the artworks more, but art and design is subjective, so...
There are some cards I know it had impact on and I have no idea of vintage, but I know manaburn never mattered in any game I had before I they changed it.
They are powerful, but by no means as broken as you describe them. The new sweepers destroy them, almost every set there is a card that states "destroy target Planeswalker" and red has the least problems of all, as they can just burn them (even very old cards, like Lightning Bolt).
Actually I've got the impression blue gets the weakest cards in the latest sets (besides pretty failed design stuff, like the delve cards)
There are still good discard spells in every set, and there are a lot of cheap counterspells (sure, there is no Counterspell anymore, but there is stuff like Swan Song and other one or two mana counterspells), land destruction is a mechanic I totally understand why people don't like it. It is not nice, if you can't play Magic, but are stuck in a game of Magic. But with the lack of cheap removal, I have to agree.
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
Do creatures instead of artifacts count? So, Dreadbore (edit: thought it was instant, but still two mana kill a PW) for example? Also, there is Vampire Hexmage which also only costs two mana. Than there is Hero's downfall. Sure, it is 3 mana, but still instant.
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
Actually it would even be relevant to pauper cubes running Burning-Tree Emissary (the flavor!)
In Vintage every other card produces mana and the most problematic deck is indeed stax, because it has no drawback anymore.
And the Planeswalker removal you got there is quite bad. The only reasonable one is the Hexmage and its pretty much limited to Depthscombo. Even though the main enchantmentremoval is W/G there a hundreds of spells which deal with enchantments and most of them are better. Like you can find instant removal for G. Actually there would be an outcry when Walkers became as weak to removal as enchantments.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Chaos Orb, the REAL pinnacle of MTG's glory days
--
But yeah, "planewalker" is really no more powerful than "flying", it just depends on the card that it's on. Was JTMS a bad design? Probably. But you being able to attack a PW is HUGE -- there's no planeswalker equivalent of a Moat or a Blood Moon (or The Abyss or Nether Void or even Story Circle or Propaganda) that makes some number of decks say, "Well your spell resolved, I lost 80-100% of my chance to win this game while it's in play no matter what else is going on now".
its repetitive, but the main problem with walkers still is the lack of strong removal. If they printed common removal for CC1 and cheap creatures that ETB killed a walker, no one would complain. besides the walker having haste. Funnily enough, a resolved JtMS and most of the time LotV (one sided abyss+) locks the game more than Abyss (doesnt hit artifact creatures, Nether Void (stops your own development), Story Circle or Propaganda (lol). The last time these cards were played were probably in 1999. The only strong ones are Moat (does nothing against combo) and Blood Moon (punishes greedy manabases) On top, both are sideboard cards.
Colorless enchantment removal out of my head that saw play Engineered Explosives, Ratchet Bomb, Oblivion Stone, Smokestack.
Blue has counterspells (the mentioned Swan Song not hitting Walkers of course)
Black used Dystopia at one point
and red got Chaos Warp
They all can hit walkers as well though.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Like prophecy cards
(which came out in 2000)
Nitpick: Blood moon isn't really a sideboard card. Afaik
//
Dreadbore is bad?
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Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
EDIT: only a few of the top legacy decks play walkers, I missed Chandra in the big red decks that use chalice/ancient tomb/blood moons, the esper stoneblafr decks typically play3-4 total of jtms/lotv, and miracles plays a few Jaces. So it's a stretch to say dreadbore is bad because it's not played in eternal format's when the need for it in eternal formats is low. This conversation is insane lol
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
The 1993 arguments over Rukh Egg errata and banning were SO MUCH MORE FLAVORFUL AND IMMERSIVE
What prophecy cards? Abyss and Void are Legends, Propaganda is Tempest and Story Circle Mercadian Masques (cant remember it was ever played in eternal)
Blood Moon crosses the border because a whole meta is infested with decks its good against.
Dreadbore sucks. 2 colored, worst guild, no instant.
we are also not discussing how strong the walkers are in eternal, since those formats still have access to the good stuff, but how bad they are for the game in general.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
'I like legacy because there are no/fewer planeswalkers'
the logic here is absurd and so self-contradictory that it's blowing my mind lol just because a card isn't seeing eternal format play, ESPECIALLY FOR THE OBVIOUS REASONS YOU AGREE WITH, doesn't mean it's bad, just that it doesn't fit.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Walkers are also "broken" for limited because they are 100% built to play in standard. I would bet that a very large percentage of generalist, pushed cards for standard are busted for limited. That is oart of why they are a mythic rare, drawing them out of the limited cardpool by 50%. The cardtype isn't better than any other, but they make them better than the average card because they want the cards to do well.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My god, guys.
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
T1 Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Entomb, Reanimate
T4 Jace, the Living Guildpact
The majority of what I, Io, and salmo have said was neither the former nor the latter.
//
But yeah, if you want to reclaim the thread, go ahead. I've uncovered the quality of counter arguments that I came to uncover.
//
I was wondering when someone outside the argument would feel the need to chime in
//
EDIT: just in time
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
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My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
No, it is. It's one for one removal that can kill planeswalkers. There are no other cards that can kill a PW for two, unless Im missing something. The mana cost and sorcery speed is fine for having a two mana answer for walkers. But you don't have to believe me, go to the regular cube's Random Card of the Day forum and read over the recent terminate discussion, Dreadbore is a LOT better than you're giving it credit for.
And re:your point @ leelue, I don't agree with the signature bit that was definitely uncalled for and a bit rude, but the rest of the time he has been chasing the most silly series of complaints without any basis. It would be one thing if it was "I don't like the way things are going, I know I could be in the minority/wrong here for the very clear and obvious reasons pointed out but I still don't like it" it would be one thing, but this entire argument has been the most frustrating series of 'yeah, but...'s moving from one point to the next that I feel like you guys just want to argue for the sake of arguing. If you don't like magic cards or the way things are going that's fine, but don't paint it as us being crazy when reading over this argument is like an exercise in what it's like to go crazy lol
But, yeah, Amonkhet.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
But yeah, the topic has a substential discussion in the general forums: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/774657-whats-wrong-with-todays-magic
Actually most of them have the same issues as I have with the game and there is a big agreement about Planeswalker basically OP and limited formats being generic.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Or when you say there are too many humans, and I clarified that it's the same... Numerically
When you shifted gears and said it's the style of humans you dislike, and I displayed that most humans historically have the same aesthetic that you claim dislike, (and I did ask you to give an example of what you would prefer, as opposed to examples of things you dislike) that's not trolling.
You didn't address the contention that I had about gideons lawkeeper, either (that if they can't reprint things to fit in a plane/set it's needlessly restrictive for a game this old.)
When I butted heads with Humphrey about art, and we debated the merits of different styles, he and I eventually got to be relatively constructive or friendly on those grounds. Which I just say was a pleasant surprise.
I posted in the thread because I was responding to a tangent you went on in a spoiler. It was bothering me for a few days, and I realized I should check how factual it was. So I did.
The large majority of what I had to say was about the conversation. Majority doesnt mean all. Salmo is correct. In a number of ways
Don't cherry pick
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
But the solutions they pose are a bit scattershot.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra