I'd give Bone Shredder a 2. As a sorcery speed Terror that holds off an attacker for a turn it's got a pretty solid floor. The real strength of Bone Shredder is how easy it is to abuse it with recursive shenanigans, especially since Echo lets in bin itself.
Also, I know you're already putting a lot of work into this project, but would you mind tagging the cards in the unplayables list? It's a lot easier for everyone to see what you're referring to if you do.
Your description is also making me take a second look at Chittering Rats, I may have undervalued that when I built my Peasant cube. Thanks!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Also, I know you're already putting a lot of work into this project, but would you mind tagging the cards in the unplayables list? It's a lot easier for everyone to see what you're referring to if you do.
Whoops, I usually do this but missed it this time. Updated.
It's really weird, but bone shredder is one of the most included cards on the forums. In fact, including my own list, out of the 5 lists I looked at only one of them didn't run it. That's browndog, and browndog is a lunatic. It's a 3, because of abusability.
I have no idea what chilling shade would do. Paying mana for at least a second power each turn is a bad deal. I would guess it's too much work.
Big Game Hunter is too narrow. 0.
I've wanted to like blind zealot a bunch of times, but a 2/2 intimidate isn't exactly great, and if it is unable to get in then all that potential for a kill spell is foiled.
There are not enough clerics for the cleric guy to work. It's a bad card alone. It's a bad card with one other cleric.
I just don't understand the pestilence rats. I'd call it a 1.
Corrosive mentor is narrower in application than it looks.
I've obvisouly undervalued Bone Shredder. I was comparing it to Nekrataal and Shriekmaw, and assumed this was too far down the chain. Is the abusability mainly because of the echo?
Big Game Hunter, Cabal Archon and Corrosive Mentor can all go to unplayable.
I didn't mind Blind Zealot when it was in my cube. But I don't mind dropping it to a 1.
Crypt Rats... I think it may have been in my first iteration of cube but don't recall playing it. I'd guess you would play it in a sweeper control deck, laying it down and then setting it off on the next turn. Your opponent doesn't have much choice but to play into it. It's more mana intensive, but it does let you clear out bigger creatures. But perhaps a bit too awkward. Would love to hear from someone with experience, I thought it was played more.
Chilling Shade - While the base stats are bad, a possible scenario is to drop it turn 3, lay your land turn 4 and threaten to attack with a 5/5 flyer. If they block, it is probably right to pump and maintain board control. If they don't, I'd guess it isn't right to pump and keep developing your board, unless maybe it gets them in range for lethal next turn. I think the key difference for this when compared to other shades is that every land is pump, not half your deck if you are two colors.
Your description is also making me take a second look at Chittering Rats, I may have undervalued that when I built my Peasant cube. Thanks!
Funnily enough, I think I've been undervaluing it even though it is in my cube. I don't remember the last time I played Chittering Rats, but I've been getting punished lately on Magic Duels by Roil Spout when keeping land light hands, which is making me rethink the Rats.
Bone shredder is a 2 at least. It gets gross with bounce.
If vampire nighthaw doesn't get a 4 heads will roll btw.
The bounce also applies to Shriekmaw and Nekrataal, so it didn't have that over them, and they seem almost as abusable. Sounds like the echo just makes it easier, which is the main thing it has over them? I mean, it flies but for its size that hardly seems to be the standout feature. How many of these do you need in a cube before it is enough of the same effect? I'm probably biased by the fact that I have a 360 cube, so for a 450-720 cube it probably fits the criteria for a 3.
A 2 power flyer for 3 mana? It isn't aggressive enough. Maybe it makes it into niche for the vampire or shaman tribal decks.
Also, I know you're already putting a lot of work into this project, but would you mind tagging the cards in the unplayables list? It's a lot easier for everyone to see what you're referring to if you do.
Whoops, I usually do this but missed it this time. Updated.
Thanks. I actually get a perverse pleasure out of reading the unplayables.
I've obvisouly undervalued Bone Shredder. I was comparing it to Nekrataal and Shriekmaw, and assumed this was too far down the chain. Is the abusability mainly because of the echo?
Having the echo is surprisingly great in decks that just plan to recur it anyway, because it acts as its own sac outlet. However, I think it would still be solid even without echo as a removal spell that comes with a free chump blocker plays really well in controlling decks, kind of like how Sakura-Tribe Elder plays out so much better in ramp decks than Rampant Growth even though it's pretty rare that anyone attacks or blocks with STEve. Plus, it's splashable and cheaper to play than Nekrataal or Skinrender,
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Bone Shredder is much worse than Nekrataal or Shriekmaw because those bodies are good and give you a 2for1. Being much worse than some of the best creatures in cube isn't a huge strike against any card though. A 1/1 flyer can do a surprising amount of work in my cube (I'm playing all 4 U/W 2/1 fliers for example) and the echo playing into recursion is gravy.
I've been wondering why so many people seem to like bone shredder so much. I'd rather trade my 3/3 or 2/1 first strike before I recur it instead of recuring a slightly overcosted spell on a marginally relevant body. I'd give Bone shredder a 2.
Just to give some more feedback on some of the cards that are seeing discussion.
I cube Chilling Shade with snow basics. It is easily a top performer for me and I could see it as being up to a 3. I don't think the issue is as Leelue says that you need 1 mana to make it into a 2/2 each turn. It's that it's flexible enough to be as big as you need it to be.
I also cube Crypt Rats but it's been pretty mediocre. The requirement to be running sufficient black sources to activate it for 3 or 4 is pretty hard to ask for. I feel like it merits a 1.
Bone Shredder is easily a 3. I think I've literally never cut it from a deck that makes B. It's subtle, and a lot of the time you just have a worse Terror, but it works well with so many other cube cards.
FWIW, I'd definitely consider drafting it over Nekrataal, but only very rarely ahead of Skinrender.
The Shade is probably a 1, though so few people actually run snow basics for it to matter. There's still a ton of bounce and non-toughness-based removal out there. It's basically Killer Bees, though, and that card was a tournament staple (... in 1994).
I like Crypt Rats at 1. A Pestilence you can't re-use on multiple turns is not nearly as good.
Updated previous post, ended up giving Chilling Shade a 2, Bone Shredder a 3, and Crypt Rats a 1, and updated a few descriptions.
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good. 3 - Strong - These are solid cards that get the job done. Their exclusion is probably an indicator that you are actively not supporting a popular deck / archetype / effect. 2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds). 1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect. Unplayable - There isn't a reason to play these over other options, except in extreme cases where you are intentionally depowering an effect.
Dauthi Jackal - 1 Description - While not the most aggressive, it is evasive and can mess with your opponents blocking. Anchors - Supports -
Dauthi Marauder - 3 Description - 3 near-unblockable power for 3 mana. If you want to support black aggro, this is perhaps the best in the 3-drop slot. It might be excluded from lists on the basis that it doesn't promote interactivity. Anchors - Aggro Supports -
Dauthi Trapper - 1 Description - Make anything virtually unblockable? Sounds good, but you are invested a card, have to take a turn off to cast it, and it takes a turn to come online. Its appeal is limited, but could find a home in ramp decks or alongside saboteurs to get combat damage triggers. Anchors - Supports -
Dead Reveler - 2 Description - Another solid contributor to the black aggro decks, it is often difficult to deal with on the ground if cast unleashed on curve. It beats pesky 1/3 control oriented creatures in the early game, and the fourth point of toughness puts it out of range of most cheap red burn or trading with other 3 drops. Even if you are behind, casting as a 2/3 can still survive or trade often enough. Anchors - Aggro Supports - +1/+1 counters
Deadbridge Shaman - 1 Description - It's not bad, it's just 'meh'. It probably works fine as a value card in either aggro or control to trade while forcing discard, but it doesn't really help define your cube. Death trigger synergises with sacrifice decks. Anchors - Supports - Sacrifice
Demonic Taskmaster - 1 Description - It could have a place in control decks, either played as an early threat and then suppress opposition, or more traditional blue / black control to play it in the mid game with protection backup. It is fine in that role and is an option if you want to push your players in that direction, but isn't likely to see much play elsewhere. Anchors - Supports -
Ebon Drake - 1 Description - It promotes a certain risk / reward style of play, with excellent stats and abilities for cost, but the drawback can add up. Best in fast environments; if most games go long in your cube, this isn't likely to see much play, and Necrogen Scudder is probably a better option. Anchors - Aggro Supports -
Eyeblight Assassin - 1 Description - It is strictly worse than Tooth Collector. On its own it is ok, allowing you to take out some utility creatures or some cheap aggro creatures, or cast after combat for some early creatures to trade up. Only if you need a second version. Anchors - Supports -
Felhide Petrifier - ??? Description - Assume most decks will be happier with Thrill-Kill Assassin, but a 2/3 deathtoucher for 3 doesn't seem too bad? Tribal is mostly flavor text. Anchors - Supports -
Fleshbag Marauder / Merciless Executioner - 2 Description - At its basest, it can act as 'removal' for your opponents worst creature, but is effective at removing some threats other black removal may have trouble with; black creatures, artifact creatures, hexproof, etc. Sometimes though you will really wish you had targeted removal if they have a sacrificial lamb available. Good in aggro decks to keep the way clear while potentially upgrading the power of an early drop, or upgrading tokens. Being a creature can open it up to some recursion. Fleshbag Marauder will usually get the nod, because the Zombie creature type matters more than Orc. Anchors - Supports -
Gutless Ghoul - 1 Description - It can support dedicated sacrifice decks by giving them a sacrifice outlet for fodder. Most other decks won't want a 2/2 that costs 3 mana though. Nice to have around so you can sac stuff that would otherwise be on its way to the graveyard, but not something most decks will want to invest in. Anchors - Supports - Sacrifice
Dauthi Mercenary - You need to spend 4 mana before this gets better than Dauthi Marauder.
Deadly Grub - The likelihood of getting your 6/1 is slim and not something you want to play around.
Death Charmer - The ability isn't worth this being a Gray Ogre.
Gangrenous Zombies - If you want the sweeper effect, you don’t want it attached to a creature vulnerable to a variety of removal that takes a turn before you can threaten activation.
Dead Reveler is a 1 -- it's about as good as a Daggerclaw Imp for a black aggro deck, which is to say not particularly great.
Ebon Drake is a 1, it's just worse than Necrogen Scudder (which itself is pretty rarely in C/Ubes)
The Fleshbag bros should be 2. Fine cards, and sometimes it's one-sided if you get to cash in your Pacifism'd dude or a useless token, but the base case is a three-mana sorcery edict which is a ton worse than the Bone Shredder we've been talking about.
--
Dauthi Jackal is totally fine as a 1, as a lesser aggro option. 2 unblockable power is fine, and it can muck up blocking choices.
Agree with Fleshbag being worse than Bone Shredder.
Is Eyeblight Assassin unplayable now? It kills 36% of things in my cube, and (as was pointed out by someone whose name eludes me in the SOI-spoiler thread) the ability to shrink a blocker pre-combat and then be able to force through damage or trade up is also relevant. I think it should be a 1, and probably nearer a 2 than a zero.
(Also. Poor Grollub. I had forgot about that guy. )
Edit: Spelling. Always forgets the 4th s in assassin.
Huh. I assumed others played Dead Reveler, but looking at recent posters cubes, it is just me. Nevertheless, I've never been disappointed with it. 3/4 for 3 is excellent stats. It can be blocked on the ground compared to Daggerclaw Imp, but I think I prefer not dying to spirit tokens or Pegasus etc and when on curve it can attack into most ground foes anyway. It may not be a 3, but I think it is still a solid option and is a 2. Incidental to +1/+1 counter themes as well.
Eyeblight Assassin should not be unplayable. Might be at the lower end of 2.
Dead Reveller is probably not played much because pure stats aren't very exciting, even if the card is fine? It was quite good in my pauper cube.
I've thought about including Grim Guardian, because BW does have an enchantment control theme in my cube, but ultimately I think it's not good enough, unless you really warp your cube around it. The payoff for the enchantment creature type isn't big enough (Blessed Spirits and Blightcaster are no Doomwake Giant and Sphere of Safety is good enough with the usual enchantment removal) and the life drain won't really matter in a control deck. My cube is probably among the best positioned to run a card like Grim Guardian and if I'm not doing it... So I think unless you run an enchantment cube, it's probably unplayable or close to it.
Also Underworld Coinsmith fills a similar role in the same deck and is much more useful overall. You gain life if you need it against aggro, you drain if you can afford to, you still get all the enchantment triggers Guardian would get you.
I think I was pre-empting that Eyeblight Assassin was a strictly worse Tooth Collector even though we don't have that in our hands yet. Once we DO have it, I assume no-one will play this as a redundant version? If that is the case, I'll make it unplayable now rather than update it later. Or it can be a 1 as the second copy if you really want a second version of the effect.
I'm also pretty sure that Aphetto Exterminator is a fine option for settings that are tired of Shriekmaw-level 2-for-1s, and worth a "1" for cool but lower-powered value cards.
Also, I know you're already putting a lot of work into this project, but would you mind tagging the cards in the unplayables list? It's a lot easier for everyone to see what you're referring to if you do.
Your description is also making me take a second look at Chittering Rats, I may have undervalued that when I built my Peasant cube. Thanks!
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Also, I think that the fact that bone shredder is in practically every cube is a testament to its three-dom. Even if it's a low level 3
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
If vampire nighthaw doesn't get a 4 heads will roll btw.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Big Game Hunter, Cabal Archon and Corrosive Mentor can all go to unplayable.
I didn't mind Blind Zealot when it was in my cube. But I don't mind dropping it to a 1.
Crypt Rats... I think it may have been in my first iteration of cube but don't recall playing it. I'd guess you would play it in a sweeper control deck, laying it down and then setting it off on the next turn. Your opponent doesn't have much choice but to play into it. It's more mana intensive, but it does let you clear out bigger creatures. But perhaps a bit too awkward. Would love to hear from someone with experience, I thought it was played more.
Chilling Shade - While the base stats are bad, a possible scenario is to drop it turn 3, lay your land turn 4 and threaten to attack with a 5/5 flyer. If they block, it is probably right to pump and maintain board control. If they don't, I'd guess it isn't right to pump and keep developing your board, unless maybe it gets them in range for lethal next turn. I think the key difference for this when compared to other shades is that every land is pump, not half your deck if you are two colors.
A 2 power flyer for 3 mana? It isn't aggressive enough. Maybe it makes it into niche for the vampire or shaman tribal decks.
Thanks. I actually get a perverse pleasure out of reading the unplayables.
Having the echo is surprisingly great in decks that just plan to recur it anyway, because it acts as its own sac outlet. However, I think it would still be solid even without echo as a removal spell that comes with a free chump blocker plays really well in controlling decks, kind of like how Sakura-Tribe Elder plays out so much better in ramp decks than Rampant Growth even though it's pretty rare that anyone attacks or blocks with STEve. Plus, it's splashable and cheaper to play than Nekrataal or Skinrender,
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
I cube Chilling Shade with snow basics. It is easily a top performer for me and I could see it as being up to a 3. I don't think the issue is as Leelue says that you need 1 mana to make it into a 2/2 each turn. It's that it's flexible enough to be as big as you need it to be.
I also cube Crypt Rats but it's been pretty mediocre. The requirement to be running sufficient black sources to activate it for 3 or 4 is pretty hard to ask for. I feel like it merits a 1.
Judge Tower: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/80859
FWIW, I'd definitely consider drafting it over Nekrataal, but only very rarely ahead of Skinrender.
The Shade is probably a 1, though so few people actually run snow basics for it to matter. There's still a ton of bounce and non-toughness-based removal out there. It's basically Killer Bees, though, and that card was a tournament staple (... in 1994).
I like Crypt Rats at 1. A Pestilence you can't re-use on multiple turns is not nearly as good.
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good.
3 - Strong - These are solid cards that get the job done. Their exclusion is probably an indicator that you are actively not supporting a popular deck / archetype / effect.
2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds).
1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect.
Unplayable - There isn't a reason to play these over other options, except in extreme cases where you are intentionally depowering an effect.
Dauthi Jackal - 1
Description - While not the most aggressive, it is evasive and can mess with your opponents blocking.
Anchors -
Supports -
Dauthi Marauder - 3
Description - 3 near-unblockable power for 3 mana. If you want to support black aggro, this is perhaps the best in the 3-drop slot. It might be excluded from lists on the basis that it doesn't promote interactivity.
Anchors - Aggro
Supports -
Dauthi Trapper - 1
Description - Make anything virtually unblockable? Sounds good, but you are invested a card, have to take a turn off to cast it, and it takes a turn to come online. Its appeal is limited, but could find a home in ramp decks or alongside saboteurs to get combat damage triggers.
Anchors -
Supports -
Dead Reveler - 2
Description - Another solid contributor to the black aggro decks, it is often difficult to deal with on the ground if cast unleashed on curve. It beats pesky 1/3 control oriented creatures in the early game, and the fourth point of toughness puts it out of range of most cheap red burn or trading with other 3 drops. Even if you are behind, casting as a 2/3 can still survive or trade often enough.
Anchors - Aggro
Supports - +1/+1 counters
Deadbridge Shaman - 1
Description - It's not bad, it's just 'meh'. It probably works fine as a value card in either aggro or control to trade while forcing discard, but it doesn't really help define your cube. Death trigger synergises with sacrifice decks.
Anchors -
Supports - Sacrifice
Demonic Taskmaster - 1
Description - It could have a place in control decks, either played as an early threat and then suppress opposition, or more traditional blue / black control to play it in the mid game with protection backup. It is fine in that role and is an option if you want to push your players in that direction, but isn't likely to see much play elsewhere.
Anchors -
Supports -
Ebon Drake - 1
Description - It promotes a certain risk / reward style of play, with excellent stats and abilities for cost, but the drawback can add up. Best in fast environments; if most games go long in your cube, this isn't likely to see much play, and Necrogen Scudder is probably a better option.
Anchors - Aggro
Supports -
Eyeblight Assassin - 1
Description - It is strictly worse than Tooth Collector. On its own it is ok, allowing you to take out some utility creatures or some cheap aggro creatures, or cast after combat for some early creatures to trade up. Only if you need a second version.
Anchors -
Supports -
Felhide Petrifier - ???
Description - Assume most decks will be happier with Thrill-Kill Assassin, but a 2/3 deathtoucher for 3 doesn't seem too bad? Tribal is mostly flavor text.
Anchors -
Supports -
Fleshbag Marauder / Merciless Executioner - 2
Description - At its basest, it can act as 'removal' for your opponents worst creature, but is effective at removing some threats other black removal may have trouble with; black creatures, artifact creatures, hexproof, etc. Sometimes though you will really wish you had targeted removal if they have a sacrificial lamb available. Good in aggro decks to keep the way clear while potentially upgrading the power of an early drop, or upgrading tokens. Being a creature can open it up to some recursion. Fleshbag Marauder will usually get the nod, because the Zombie creature type matters more than Orc.
Anchors -
Supports -
Gutless Ghoul - 1
Description - It can support dedicated sacrifice decks by giving them a sacrifice outlet for fodder. Most other decks won't want a 2/2 that costs 3 mana though. Nice to have around so you can sac stuff that would otherwise be on its way to the graveyard, but not something most decks will want to invest in.
Anchors -
Supports - Sacrifice
Ebon Drake is a 1, it's just worse than Necrogen Scudder (which itself is pretty rarely in C/Ubes)
The Fleshbag bros should be 2. Fine cards, and sometimes it's one-sided if you get to cash in your Pacifism'd dude or a useless token, but the base case is a three-mana sorcery edict which is a ton worse than the Bone Shredder we've been talking about.
--
Dauthi Jackal is totally fine as a 1, as a lesser aggro option. 2 unblockable power is fine, and it can muck up blocking choices.
Is Eyeblight Assassin unplayable now? It kills 36% of things in my cube, and (as was pointed out by someone whose name eludes me in the SOI-spoiler thread) the ability to shrink a blocker pre-combat and then be able to force through damage or trade up is also relevant. I think it should be a 1, and probably nearer a 2 than a zero.
(Also. Poor Grollub. I had forgot about that guy. )
Edit: Spelling. Always forgets the 4th s in assassin.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Ebon Drake, sure, drop to 1.
Fleshbag Marauder, I don't have heaps of experience so it can drop to 2, but I figure others might have different ideas.
Dauthi Jackal, sure can get a 1.
Marauder 2
0 Grim guardian >:( I don't think this card does anything (3 mana 1/4 that makes someone lose 3 life at most please no.)
The "gives a guy shadow" card is bad. 3 mana is too much money for unblockability. 2 mana is probably too much mana for unblockability
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Dead Reveller is probably not played much because pure stats aren't very exciting, even if the card is fine? It was quite good in my pauper cube.
I've thought about including Grim Guardian, because BW does have an enchantment control theme in my cube, but ultimately I think it's not good enough, unless you really warp your cube around it. The payoff for the enchantment creature type isn't big enough (Blessed Spirits and Blightcaster are no Doomwake Giant and Sphere of Safety is good enough with the usual enchantment removal) and the life drain won't really matter in a control deck. My cube is probably among the best positioned to run a card like Grim Guardian and if I'm not doing it... So I think unless you run an enchantment cube, it's probably unplayable or close to it.
Also Underworld Coinsmith fills a similar role in the same deck and is much more useful overall. You gain life if you need it against aggro, you drain if you can afford to, you still get all the enchantment triggers Guardian would get you.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Fallout Commander
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor