Treasure keeper's trigger is bloodbraid elf's cascade, but it's on a much much slower creature. If it's suitable for anything, it would have to be for some sort of value deck. But what kind of "cascades" would be worth it in a value deck? If BBE hits lightning bolt, it's comparable to flametongue kavu, but if this guy hits lightning bolt he's comparable to mudbutton torchrunner. If BBE hits a 2 drop, it applies pressure on a board where a 2 drop may still be good. If this guy hits a 2 drop, it's like... Seed guardian? Except it doesn't have 4 toughness, or reach, or the upside of making a 5/5.
So I think it's not worth running.
Squirrely is crazy, but is trying hard to support some deep graveyard strategy by looking at the bottom of the barrel. If you could get it going reliably, a 3/3 haste that pumps the team is ridiculous, but that probably isn't average case scenario.
Pyrewild shaman is a card that I have been trying a little, but I think I need to take it out. It costs too much for conditional reach.
There are too many great selesnya cards to justify using Wayfaring temple. Scion of the wild just isn't really playable and this guy requires you to be way ahead to actually get better than the monogreen card.
Supreme will is always a card that works. Worth a filler spot.
Gaea's anthem is pretty good, but it is second fiddle to curse of predation. The curse is OP and has been banned by a couple of people, btw.
Skywhaler's shot
You know, this is almost murder. It would probably be a fine card, except white has like 89 Oblivion rings to take its place.
Thank you Leelue for your description. I will probably keep Gaea's Anthem and Supreme Will, the rest will be replaced.
Squirrely is crazy, but is trying hard to support some deep graveyard strategy by looking at the bottom of the barrel. If you could get it going reliably, a 3/3 haste that pumps the team is ridiculous, but that probably isn't average case scenario.
Centaur Chieftain is indeed one of the cards I'm trying as part of some sort of aggro graveyard deck. If you make sure you have enough burst self-mill (think dredge, Grisly Salvage/Commune with the Gods/etc, even Faithless Looting/Careful Study), getting to threshold is not that hard to do. Chieftain is not a card that you play on curve and expect it to be kicked most of the time AND have creatures to pump. Though, having your self-mill/dredge on creatures (Satyr Wayfinder, Glowspore Shaman) makes it a little more likely. But hey, some decks are fine with simply curving out with a 3/3 haste guy on turn 4.
Having said all that, Centaur Chieftain is not great and is not a card I'd recommend to most people. It's not bottom of the barrel, simply because the card has a pretty high ceiling, but it's definitely not top either. In the end, it all comes down to specific cube set-up and cube philosophy. I prefer having some weird pay-off cards as 'finishers', and go out of my way to support them, but I do recognize that some of my pay-off cards are more funky than good.
Thanks Squirrely, I will find a replacement for now. I remember playing with this card back in Torment, so if threshold often comes up during play it might find its way back!
...general variance in colour distribution overall. I have sorted this one of two ways: The first is to seed the boosters so that each pack has 1 card of each colour + 9 random cards. The second, less labour-intensive solution, is to use more than 15 cards per booster and then scrap the remainder (e.g. 20 card packs, scrap last 5 cards from each pack.)
Yup, 20 card packs and two rounds is my go to when I can convince people to step outside the bounds of normal activity.
Inevitably, and frustratingly, it always comes with unsarcastic cries of "there's too many choices"... but the decks and packs come out better.
...general variance in colour distribution overall. I have sorted this one of two ways: The first is to seed the boosters so that each pack has 1 card of each colour + 9 random cards. The second, less labour-intensive solution, is to use more than 15 cards per booster and then scrap the remainder (e.g. 20 card packs, scrap last 5 cards from each pack.)
Yup, 20 card packs and two rounds is my go to when I can convince people to step outside the bounds of normal activity.
Inevitably, and frustratingly, it always comes with unsarcastic cries of "there's too many choices"... but the decks and packs come out better.
I've considered the two packs of 22 cards a few times.
You don't really need to try and get that close to 45 picks, for the record.
Simply having larger packs means that there are fewer dead packs for players to look at.
Not that 2 cards is much to nitpick over, but people DEFINITELY complain about 20.
Hey all, first time posting! Start by saying big thanks to bacchus2 for creating this and his other huge archetype post. Have been using both since last year when I built my peasant cube and have been following as I tweak and refine it every couple of months.
I wanted to point out that I think both Mystic Genesis and Migratory Route might have been missed? I'm interested to hear others opinions of these cards as both I've been thinking about.
Sorry it been a while since I've posted. I haven't been on here much, and when I am I've been using the limited time to try and get the first page up to date, I'm only a few pages behind now.
Yep, looks like Ash Barrens and Migratory Route have been missed somewhere along the line. I think Commander 2016 might just be missing from my master spreadsheet, which is annoying, but hey, these things are bound to happen with a project this size. I'll make a note to review.
But the short version is that Ash Barrens and Migratory Route are both great.
Mystic Genesis... my initial impression is that while it is essentially a 2 for 1, a 5 mana conditional spell isn't really where you want to be. That said, it does fit nicely into a 'flash / go' control deck, and those are the right colors for it. It probably depends on the average curve of decks in your cube. Countering a 3 drop and getting a 3/3 isn't the worst thing in the world, but if most of your decks only play a handful of 4 and 5 drops, I suspect many decks would just be better off with Fleetfeather Cockatrice in the same slot.
According to Calibretto's 2018 Average Peasant Cube, Orzhov Advokist is included in 12-14 lists out of 27. It received a generally favourable reception when it was released but it seems many have dropped it, I still include the card but have been tempted to cut it because even though the card is not symmetrical, it can leave the opponent ahead.
Hey guys, not sure if this thread is still being updated somewhere else but all the work you have done has been incredibly helpful as I continue to build/improve/tweak my New Border 720 Peasant Cube.
Was wondering what your thoughts are on Grave Upheaval in Rakdos? Is it too expensive of a reanimation spell? Or does the basic landcycling just make it great?
How many gold cards do you have per section?
I wouldn't imagine that it could be worth it with fewer than 5, and even at 5 I'd be surprised if I couldn't find a different second-best control card for rakdos after bituminous blast.
This is doubly true if you categorize a card like murderous redcap as a rakdos card (which I say is a mistake, but is common practice)
Grave Upheaval is too expensive as a spell, which landcycling doesn't save. It's a filler reanimation spell outside of stealing your opponent's fatties, which is wildly inconsistent. Swift Warkite or Torrent of Souls are stronger options for Rakdos reanimation spells.
Any particular reason why you're forcing hybrids? Also why so many multicolor cards? Is that a theme of the cube or are you just a really big fan of gold cards? None of these are meant to imply that you're doing something wrong, just gives us a better context of the cube.
According to the data I got from the MTGS Average Peasant Cube project I did late last year, these are the top 12 Rakdos cards.
I run 3 gold cards per section, including lands. At about 360. I think I would feel it if I ran 4, but Im considering it, and to extrapolate thats 8 at 720. Although I wouldnt assume you were counting lands.
You should probably cut that number down to 7 or maybe even 6, as the diminishing returns on gold cards' power levels stacks up quickly.
I also cant really imagine that every guild has 4 playable hybrids. Even if you consider signets hybrids or if you considered one-sided guildmages like azorious guildmages.
I agree with Leelue. If the cube is specifically multicolor centered, then I suppose it makes sense to have so many guild cards. If you're just looking to build a "normal" peasant cube, however, I'd try to keep multicolor to around 10% of the total cube. So at 360, 3-4 per guild is probably sufficient. I also wouldn't recommend forcing X amount of hybrids into each section and instead just let the sections build themselves, hybrid or not. If your group is just particularly fond of gold cards, I'd probably still cap it at no more than five per guild in a 360 list or eight maybe nine for a 720 list.
Thing is, even MC-centred cubes should probably not overdo gold cards. Instead, they should just have more focus on better fixing and perhaps single-colour cards that benefit from extra colours like Wandering Champion. The reason is simply how that adds to the decision-making in Draft and enables more ambitious combinations instead of pigeonholing the process by demanding either devotion to colour identities established early in the draft or too much focus on fixing.
Here is my Cube, I finally finished tweaking it today.
Each guild has around eight dedicated gold cards and around two hybrids depending on the color combination. I know this isn’t the forum to discuss everyone’s specific cube but if anyone wants to draft it to help my AI or give me feedback that would be awesome. Just please message me privately on cubetutor so we don’t derail this thread. I can’t wait to see updates ratings from the newer sets.
I am marking all the cards inside as :
-green if playable or more
-light green if niche
-orange if unplayable but i like them anyway
-red if they are unplayable and i want to remove them
As you can see there are holes of cards from last sets like Kaladesh, Dominaria etc.
Is this project still on?
Is the intention to keep it up with the new sets or is it dead here?
If i personally evaluate some card, will they be added?
Isnt it a good idea to translate it to a Google Spreadsheet to allow direct suggestions and a better filtering? Would anyone be interested if i do it?
I believe it was bacchus2's intention to keep it going, but they've not be very active in the forums lately that I've seen, so I don't know what the situation is there as far as the future of this project.
I would recommend taking a look at the average MTGS cube list in my signature. This ends up getting very similar results to if you were to build a 720 list based on the rankings in this thread. I compared 27 recently updated peasant cubes from the MTGS forums here to get the results. It ended up at 641 cards, so just short of a 720 list leaving some room for personal preference at that size. It's updated through GRN, so only missing UMA and RNA.
Just a bit of opinion based on what I've seen from the peasant format, though, would be that 720 lists can be extremely low power. Adding an extra limitation on yourself of making it modern only seems like it would greatly decrease the power level of the cards available to you. This could very well be the environment you're looking for, in which case, carry on. I just wanted to point out that in peasant, at least in my experience, going much larger than 450 starts to greatly fall down on the power spectrum.
The low power is intended because in my group we like the sensation that a simple 6/6 is big and scary and we don't like flashy things like for example Gush or other not really fair cards.
Setting it in modern cut out all the strange cards of the past where the direction of the game was not really clear in my opinion.
I am looking the average cube and it seems a good list. I think the colors must absolutly be changed because like that are really confusionary. I would have choosen colors from red to dark green (7 total) that create a more intuitive red-green scale.
I am looking the average cube and it seems a good list. I think the colors must absolutly be changed because like that are really confusionary. I would have choosen colors from red to dark green (7 total) that create a more intuitive red-green scale.
Thanks for the help anyway
I totally agree. Unfortunately you're limited to the colors that CubeTutor has to offer, so creating a good gradiant scale is a challenge to say the least.
The low power is intended because in my group we like the sensation that a simple 6/6 is big and scary and we don't like flashy things like for example Gush or other not really fair cards.
Setting it in modern cut out all the strange cards of the past where the direction of the game was not really clear in my opinion.
I am looking the average cube and it seems a good list. I think the colors must absolutly be changed because like that are really confusionary. I would have choosen colors from red to dark green (7 total) that create a more intuitive red-green scale.
Thanks for the help anyway
I may have been to blame for the colour-choice. I am red-green colour-blind, so the first version just looked like porridge to me.
I'm alive! I'm clearly behind and I haven't played Magic in months, but I do want to add the last years of sets or however much I've missed. Had some other priorities for the beginning of the year, hopefully kickstart this by the end of the month.
Thank you Leelue for your description. I will probably keep Gaea's Anthem and Supreme Will, the rest will be replaced.
Thanks Squirrely, I will find a replacement for now. I remember playing with this card back in Torment, so if threshold often comes up during play it might find its way back!
Yup, 20 card packs and two rounds is my go to when I can convince people to step outside the bounds of normal activity.
Inevitably, and frustratingly, it always comes with unsarcastic cries of "there's too many choices"... but the decks and packs come out better.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I've considered the two packs of 22 cards a few times.
Simply having larger packs means that there are fewer dead packs for players to look at.
Not that 2 cards is much to nitpick over, but people DEFINITELY complain about 20.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I wanted to point out that I think both Mystic Genesis and Migratory Route might have been missed? I'm interested to hear others opinions of these cards as both I've been thinking about.
Cheers!
Yep, looks like Ash Barrens and Migratory Route have been missed somewhere along the line. I think Commander 2016 might just be missing from my master spreadsheet, which is annoying, but hey, these things are bound to happen with a project this size. I'll make a note to review.
But the short version is that Ash Barrens and Migratory Route are both great.
Mystic Genesis... my initial impression is that while it is essentially a 2 for 1, a 5 mana conditional spell isn't really where you want to be. That said, it does fit nicely into a 'flash / go' control deck, and those are the right colors for it. It probably depends on the average curve of decks in your cube. Countering a 3 drop and getting a 3/3 isn't the worst thing in the world, but if most of your decks only play a handful of 4 and 5 drops, I suspect many decks would just be better off with Fleetfeather Cockatrice in the same slot.
Curious to hear what you all think about Orzhov Advokist? Another commander card. Been really good in my playgroup.
Was wondering what your thoughts are on Grave Upheaval in Rakdos? Is it too expensive of a reanimation spell? Or does the basic landcycling just make it great?
I wouldn't imagine that it could be worth it with fewer than 5, and even at 5 I'd be surprised if I couldn't find a different second-best control card for rakdos after bituminous blast.
This is doubly true if you categorize a card like murderous redcap as a rakdos card (which I say is a mistake, but is common practice)
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
According to the data I got from the MTGS Average Peasant Cube project I did late last year, these are the top 12 Rakdos cards.
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Bituminous Blast
1 Fire Covenant
1 Blightning
1 Garna, the Bloodflame
1 Azra Oddsmaker
1 Spike Jester
1 Rix Maadi Guildmage
1 Terminate
1 Blazing Specter
1 Torrent of Souls
If you wanted to split that up into top 8 true multicolor and top 4 hybrids for Rakdos, that list would look like this.
1 Rakdos Cackler
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Torrent of Souls
1 Rakdos Guildmage
1 Bituminous Blast
1 Fire Covenant
1 Blightning
1 Garna, the Bloodflame
1 Azra Oddsmaker
1 Spike Jester
1 Rix Maadi Guildmage
1 Terminate
Really this is just replacing Blazing Specter for Rakdos Guildmage.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
You should probably cut that number down to 7 or maybe even 6, as the diminishing returns on gold cards' power levels stacks up quickly.
I also cant really imagine that every guild has 4 playable hybrids. Even if you consider signets hybrids or if you considered one-sided guildmages like azorious guildmages.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Here is my Cube, I finally finished tweaking it today.
Each guild has around eight dedicated gold cards and around two hybrids depending on the color combination. I know this isn’t the forum to discuss everyone’s specific cube but if anyone wants to draft it to help my AI or give me feedback that would be awesome. Just please message me privately on cubetutor so we don’t derail this thread. I can’t wait to see updates ratings from the newer sets.
I am marking all the cards inside as :
-green if playable or more
-light green if niche
-orange if unplayable but i like them anyway
-red if they are unplayable and i want to remove them
As you can see there are holes of cards from last sets like Kaladesh, Dominaria etc.
Is this project still on?
Is the intention to keep it up with the new sets or is it dead here?
If i personally evaluate some card, will they be added?
Isnt it a good idea to translate it to a Google Spreadsheet to allow direct suggestions and a better filtering? Would anyone be interested if i do it?
I would recommend taking a look at the average MTGS cube list in my signature. This ends up getting very similar results to if you were to build a 720 list based on the rankings in this thread. I compared 27 recently updated peasant cubes from the MTGS forums here to get the results. It ended up at 641 cards, so just short of a 720 list leaving some room for personal preference at that size. It's updated through GRN, so only missing UMA and RNA.
Just a bit of opinion based on what I've seen from the peasant format, though, would be that 720 lists can be extremely low power. Adding an extra limitation on yourself of making it modern only seems like it would greatly decrease the power level of the cards available to you. This could very well be the environment you're looking for, in which case, carry on. I just wanted to point out that in peasant, at least in my experience, going much larger than 450 starts to greatly fall down on the power spectrum.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Setting it in modern cut out all the strange cards of the past where the direction of the game was not really clear in my opinion.
I am looking the average cube and it seems a good list. I think the colors must absolutly be changed because like that are really confusionary. I would have choosen colors from red to dark green (7 total) that create a more intuitive red-green scale.
Thanks for the help anyway
I totally agree. Unfortunately you're limited to the colors that CubeTutor has to offer, so creating a good gradiant scale is a challenge to say the least.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
I may have been to blame for the colour-choice. I am red-green colour-blind, so the first version just looked like porridge to me.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I love having my positive spins getting tore down in this project.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)