I think it's a 3, even if it's worse than people thought it's still the best red 5 i.e. it's the top card for providing the 'effect' of a 5/5 trample haste curve topping creature.
I'm on board with all of the suggestions, and go with 3 for Monstrosaur. I don't know that we need to dwell on those.
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good. 3 - Strong - These cards are among the top cards at providing an important effect and/or supporting a popular archetype. 2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds). 1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect. No reason to cube - There isn't a reason to cube these over options. You might find some perfectly 'playable' cards here, but there is little reason to put them into your cube in the first place unless you are intentionally depowering an effect.
Adanto Vanguard - 2 Description - A good aggressive card, the mana-free indestructible ability can make blocking quite difficult for your opponent. It's not really profitable on defense. It wears auras and equipment really well, so consider this over similar options if you are pushing a pants archetype. Anchors - Supports - Pants
Skyblade of the Legion - 1 Add to Concorida Pegasus. Description - Only as a specific metagame choice for defensive decks, giving you the ability to block the majority of 1-2/X's in the early game, including aerial 2-drops like Skyship Plunderer and Stormfleet Aerialist. Anchors - Supports -
Inspiring Cleric - 2 Description - The life gain plus 3 power can make it reasonable as an early trade-off for control decks against aggro. It doesn't stand out, but it fills a role. Anchors - Supports - Life Gain Matters
Territorial Hammerskull - 2 (Master of Diversion to no reason to cube) Description - Good for keeping pressure and getting damage through, especially if you have other tap down effects to keep their creature count low. Kor Hookmaster might be considered better because the effect is immediate, can't be undone by removal, and can prevent a swing back. Anchors - Supports -
Imperial Aerosaur - 2 Description - The base stats border on just acceptable, but it can represent a bit of damage the turn it comes down. Anchors - Supports -
Bellowing Aegisaur - 1 Description - You are probably only considering cubing it if you have combo pieces to go with it (Pestilence, Pyrohemia, pingers) and want to live the dream. The 5 toughness might make it hard to attack into on the ground, but at 6 mana you might have been pressured enough that it makes no difference. Anchors - Supports -
Sky Terror - 2 Description - Two evasive abilities make this pretty hard to block. Supports aggro decks, but probably not horrible in control decks either, to chip in while controlling the ground or opposing flyers. Anchors - Supports -
Shapers of Nature - 2 Description - The activated abilities aren't cheap, but you start with an acceptable stat line for the cost. Works well on its own, while being a card that benefits from a +1/+1 counter theme. Anchors - +1/+1 counters Supports -
Call to the Feast - 1 Description - It is poor if you directly compare it to Lingering Souls, but it can provide support for token / sacrifice, or offer life gain triggers if you cube life gain matters cards. Anchors - Supports - Tokens, Life Gain Matters
Marauding Looter - 2 Description - Reasonable filtering, however a 4/3 for 4 is a little more fragile than you'd like. It promotes attacking, but is somewhat 'generic'. Anchors - Supports -
Deadeye Plunderers - 1 Description - The floor is pretty low, so you really need an artifact matters archetype to make it work. The activated ability is also expensive, but at least gives you a way to create more artifacts. If you've already got a few artifacts in play by the time you drop this it can be ok, but even then it is still vanilla. Consider other Dimir artifact matters cards first. Anchors - Artifact Matters Supports -
Raging Swordtooth - 2 Description - 5/5 trampler for 5 is decent, though it competes in a similar space to Ghor-Clan Rampager. The ETB effect is going to be inconsistent; sometimes it might clear some tokens or small aggro creatures, or you might be able to cast it after combat to put on the final point of damage. Anchors - Supports -
Duskborne Skymarcher - Even if you care about Vampires, it doesn't really do enough efficiently enough.
Encampment Keeper - You don't want a 1/1 first striker for 1, and the ability is pretty bad.
Steadfast Armasaur - A 3/4 is probably going to better on average, as are Heavy Ballista or Ballista Squad. It does have a few spots where it is better than those, but not consistently.
Sheltering Light - It's pretty close to Gods Willing, but it doesn't protect from exile or -x/-x effects, or allow you to walk straight past blockers. The corner case upsides don't really make up for it.
Elaborate Firecannon - So… you invest a card to turn cards in your hand into 4 mana Shocks that you can only cast once per turn? I'm scratching my head trying to figure this one out, but I can't figure out any synergies that would make you cube it.
On the collection of 1/1 flyers, they were classified pretty early in the piece. Topplegeist has come out since then, so I wonder if they are all just no reason to cube now, probably just didn't pick it up then. Would you really want to cube a second, worse Topplegeist?
I wondered if I'd lowballed Inspiring Cleric given we have rated some of the similar cards like Lone Missionary.
On Shapers, I know there is a gold tax and 3/3 vanilla isn't stellar, but I don't think you need much upside to make it worth it. I'm not opposed to Shapers going to 1 though, as the activated abilities aren't high impact and it is a bit of investment.
I wondered if I'd lowballed Inspiring Cleric given we have rated some of the similar cards like Lone Missionary.
Lone Missionary is a bit better as a 2 drop. a 3/2 for 2W is is a acceptable floor the same way the piker is, so the cheaper creature with the same effect should be better.
That's a great first post for this page. Really makes you want to go back and figure out what's going on.
Such is the nature of multi-page forums (though I have re-posted a newer list once or twice on a new page when it was the last post on the previous page).
So 1 or 2 for Inspiring Cleric? I guess 1 because you probably have to be looking for the life gain to consider it?
Any thoughts on Steadfast Armasaur? I haven't had a chance to play with Adanto Vanguard yet, but wondering whether that is good enough to get a 3.
Vanguard has been very impressive for me, but I haven't had too many games with it. The more toughness based removal a cube has the worse it gets obviously, but since only black has those cards...
I've only played against Armasaur once on Arena, but there it was tricky to deal with indeed. I'd consider it for slower cubes, cubes light on removal and cubes with a pants theme. As a 2/3 for four mana it's probably a bit too small/expensive for most "regular" cubes though. So I guess that's a 1.
I personally love the Steadfast Armasaur because it slots into control so well for my cube as the vigilance becomes oddly relevant in decks that have a decent amount of removal to clear the way. He sits at a solid 1 for me in my cube as he fits a niche but is very strong in said niche.
If you want a 4-drop that can deter a 3/3 in combat, is this actually doing anything better than... uh... there's no vanilla 3/4 for 4 in white, so let's say Courageous Outrider? At least Outrider doesn't make you hold two of your own lands hostage!
I guess an upside is that the Armasaur can start attacking in certain boardstates where a 3/4 cannot due to a combination of threat of activation and vigilance. So in a midrange deck, it can help you get to the "turn the corner and start pressuring your opponent". While a 3/4 "only" stabilises. Dunno.
Of course, the armasaur also kills 4/3s without trading.
But it is probably just "correct" to say that a 3/4 is better on average.
Raptor Hatchling: with no real potential for repeated triggers, this seems pretty useless. Brindle Shoat is a 1 and in a color that has much higher need for a speedbump 2-drop in most of its decks. Maybe this is also a 1 still, but definitely not a 2.
Trove of Temptation: not even getting to Incite their best dude totally kills this card. I mean, it's probably still a 0 if it cast Incite every turn after you spend four mana on it, but whatever.
--
Rigging Runner is mediocre aggro filler. 1 or 2 would be fine. It's worse than most of our current 2's and better than basically everything that's at 1.
I might actually think the skink deserves a higher rating than Nest Robber. I think _i0 demonstrates that aggresive two-drops that fill a similar role are plentyful, the skink at least actually is unique in red in providing some card flow. It is quite weak though. I'd accept zeros for both, ones for both, or a 1-0 to team lizzArd.
EDIT: I think _i0 makes a lot of sense in his other comments too.
I've dropped those red's to 1, and raised Rigging Runner from the dead. I never really included the Incite effect as part of the evaluation for Trove of Temptation, more as an artifact generator. It is among the niche-iest of niche cards, but I can at least see that as a reason to run it, even if it isn't a reason any of us pursuing at the moment. Unless there are other better repeat red artifact makers that aren't coming to mind.
I don't really agree with the assessment that Raptor Hatchling 'seems pretty useless' without the ability for repeat triggers. You still get a 1/1 and a 3/3 for 2 mana even if you don't abuse it. I'm fine with dropping it to 1 though.
Updated the white cards too, and went with the near consensus on Armasaur. It is a different effect than Courageous Outrider, but I agree with the comparison with Ballista Squad.
To the best of my knowledge, we are up to date with all sets! (sans Rivals of Ixalan, and we'll follow the usual 1-set-later wait period).
It's taken 3 years and reviewing over 10,000 cards which is an epic effort; thanks to everyone who has contributed thus far! That said, with such a long form project there are bound to be some inconsistencies and re-evaluations required, due to different perspectives as people floated in and out of the project, individual perspectives that change over time, new cards introduced during that time, even my mood when I put together an entry for discussion.
So I want to start going through the lists to identify those inconsistencies, but want to do it somewhat methodically. If we just open it up to individuals to throw in every card they don't agree with, it's just going to be a mess. I want to try and group cards together into 'roles' for re-evaluation. Some might be more specific than others. 'Black aggro 2 power 1 drops' is a bit more specific than 'green pump spells' but is probably how cube owners think of those roles.
Here are a few groups I've come up with off the top of my head, I'll look for more. Feel free to suggest others which we can explore later.
Black aggro 2 power 1-drops
Other black 1-drops
Black 2 drop 'big with a drawback'
Black evasive 2-drops
Green pump spells
Green ramping spells
Green ramping creatures
Flicker / bounce effects (maybe break down white / blue separately?)
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good. 3 - Strong - These cards are among the top cards at providing an important effect and/or supporting a popular archetype. 2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds). 1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect. No reason to cube - There isn't a reason to cube these over options. You might find some perfectly 'playable' cards here, but there is little reason to put them into your cube in the first place unless you are intentionally depowering an effect.
I haven't included the descriptions already captured, as it will be interesting to see how people think about them as a group. You can look them on the first page if you want to. Which classification would you give each of these? After that general classification, are there specific environments where you would re-evaluate them? e.g. Maybe you'd swap in Tormented Hero over a generally more powerful version if you were pushing a pants theme. That kind of discussion is useful for updating descriptions to highlight reasons a card might be more important to individual cube managers.
EDIT: Realised I threw Carrion Feeder in there. I was initially looking at aggro oriented 1-drops, and while there are some others, the 2 power guys are where it is at, and I think Carrion Feeder is much closer than any of the other 1-drops. Maybe I should take it out, but it would be interesting to see where people place it in comparison to some of the actual 2 power creatures.
Bonded Horncrest is maybe a 1 at best? The drawback is always a much bigger deal than I expect, and the payoff isn't even that great.
I like Charging Monstrosaur at 2. It's just surprisingly low impact after you get the first hit in.
Fugue to 3 seems good in my limited experience
I like monstrosaur more than a 2, but maybe I'm just biased after losing to it.
I don't really see anyone playing barrage with two better options than it.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good.
3 - Strong - These cards are among the top cards at providing an important effect and/or supporting a popular archetype.
2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds).
1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect.
No reason to cube - There isn't a reason to cube these over options. You might find some perfectly 'playable' cards here, but there is little reason to put them into your cube in the first place unless you are intentionally depowering an effect.
Adanto Vanguard - 2
Description - A good aggressive card, the mana-free indestructible ability can make blocking quite difficult for your opponent. It's not really profitable on defense. It wears auras and equipment really well, so consider this over similar options if you are pushing a pants archetype.
Anchors -
Supports - Pants
Skyblade of the Legion - 1 Add to Concorida Pegasus.
Description - Only as a specific metagame choice for defensive decks, giving you the ability to block the majority of 1-2/X's in the early game, including aerial 2-drops like Skyship Plunderer and Stormfleet Aerialist.
Anchors -
Supports -
Inspiring Cleric - 2
Description - The life gain plus 3 power can make it reasonable as an early trade-off for control decks against aggro. It doesn't stand out, but it fills a role.
Anchors -
Supports - Life Gain Matters
Territorial Hammerskull - 2 (Master of Diversion to no reason to cube)
Description - Good for keeping pressure and getting damage through, especially if you have other tap down effects to keep their creature count low. Kor Hookmaster might be considered better because the effect is immediate, can't be undone by removal, and can prevent a swing back.
Anchors -
Supports -
Imperial Aerosaur - 2
Description - The base stats border on just acceptable, but it can represent a bit of damage the turn it comes down.
Anchors -
Supports -
Bellowing Aegisaur - 1
Description - You are probably only considering cubing it if you have combo pieces to go with it (Pestilence, Pyrohemia, pingers) and want to live the dream. The 5 toughness might make it hard to attack into on the ground, but at 6 mana you might have been pressured enough that it makes no difference.
Anchors -
Supports -
Sky Terror - 2
Description - Two evasive abilities make this pretty hard to block. Supports aggro decks, but probably not horrible in control decks either, to chip in while controlling the ground or opposing flyers.
Anchors -
Supports -
Shapers of Nature - 2
Description - The activated abilities aren't cheap, but you start with an acceptable stat line for the cost. Works well on its own, while being a card that benefits from a +1/+1 counter theme.
Anchors - +1/+1 counters
Supports -
Call to the Feast - 1
Description - It is poor if you directly compare it to Lingering Souls, but it can provide support for token / sacrifice, or offer life gain triggers if you cube life gain matters cards.
Anchors -
Supports - Tokens, Life Gain Matters
Marauding Looter - 2
Description - Reasonable filtering, however a 4/3 for 4 is a little more fragile than you'd like. It promotes attacking, but is somewhat 'generic'.
Anchors -
Supports -
Deadeye Plunderers - 1
Description - The floor is pretty low, so you really need an artifact matters archetype to make it work. The activated ability is also expensive, but at least gives you a way to create more artifacts. If you've already got a few artifacts in play by the time you drop this it can be ok, but even then it is still vanilla. Consider other Dimir artifact matters cards first.
Anchors - Artifact Matters
Supports -
Raging Swordtooth - 2
Description - 5/5 trampler for 5 is decent, though it competes in a similar space to Ghor-Clan Rampager. The ETB effect is going to be inconsistent; sometimes it might clear some tokens or small aggro creatures, or you might be able to cast it after combat to put on the final point of damage.
Anchors -
Supports -
I wondered if I'd lowballed Inspiring Cleric given we have rated some of the similar cards like Lone Missionary.
On Shapers, I know there is a gold tax and 3/3 vanilla isn't stellar, but I don't think you need much upside to make it worth it. I'm not opposed to Shapers going to 1 though, as the activated abilities aren't high impact and it is a bit of investment.
Lone Missionary is a bit better as a 2 drop. a 3/2 for 2W is is a acceptable floor the same way the piker is, so the cheaper creature with the same effect should be better.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
So 1 or 2 for Inspiring Cleric? I guess 1 because you probably have to be looking for the life gain to consider it?
Any thoughts on Steadfast Armasaur? I haven't had a chance to play with Adanto Vanguard yet, but wondering whether that is good enough to get a 3.
I've only played against Armasaur once on Arena, but there it was tricky to deal with indeed. I'd consider it for slower cubes, cubes light on removal and cubes with a pants theme. As a 2/3 for four mana it's probably a bit too small/expensive for most "regular" cubes though. So I guess that's a 1.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Totally forgot about the ballistas! Silly me.
If you want a 4-drop that can deter a 3/3 in combat, is this actually doing anything better than... uh... there's no vanilla 3/4 for 4 in white, so let's say Courageous Outrider? At least Outrider doesn't make you hold two of your own lands hostage!
Of course, the armasaur also kills 4/3s without trading.
But it is probably just "correct" to say that a 3/4 is better on average.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Nest Robber is pretty bad filler; very notably worse than a lot of other red 2-drops currently rated "2" like Hellspark Elemental, Lightning Mauler, Kessig Forgemaster, Thriving Grubs. I'd drop it to 1 (and while I'm looking at the red 2's, Sigiled Skink down to 1 or probably just 0, it's awful).
Raptor Hatchling: with no real potential for repeated triggers, this seems pretty useless. Brindle Shoat is a 1 and in a color that has much higher need for a speedbump 2-drop in most of its decks. Maybe this is also a 1 still, but definitely not a 2.
Trove of Temptation: not even getting to Incite their best dude totally kills this card. I mean, it's probably still a 0 if it cast Incite every turn after you spend four mana on it, but whatever.
--
Rigging Runner is mediocre aggro filler. 1 or 2 would be fine. It's worse than most of our current 2's and better than basically everything that's at 1.
EDIT: I think _i0 makes a lot of sense in his other comments too.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I don't really agree with the assessment that Raptor Hatchling 'seems pretty useless' without the ability for repeat triggers. You still get a 1/1 and a 3/3 for 2 mana even if you don't abuse it. I'm fine with dropping it to 1 though.
Updated the white cards too, and went with the near consensus on Armasaur. It is a different effect than Courageous Outrider, but I agree with the comparison with Ballista Squad.
Ive actually thought for a long time that the last post from the previous page should be viewable on the next page to avoid that sorta thing
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
It's taken 3 years and reviewing over 10,000 cards which is an epic effort; thanks to everyone who has contributed thus far! That said, with such a long form project there are bound to be some inconsistencies and re-evaluations required, due to different perspectives as people floated in and out of the project, individual perspectives that change over time, new cards introduced during that time, even my mood when I put together an entry for discussion.
So I want to start going through the lists to identify those inconsistencies, but want to do it somewhat methodically. If we just open it up to individuals to throw in every card they don't agree with, it's just going to be a mess. I want to try and group cards together into 'roles' for re-evaluation. Some might be more specific than others. 'Black aggro 2 power 1 drops' is a bit more specific than 'green pump spells' but is probably how cube owners think of those roles.
Here are a few groups I've come up with off the top of my head, I'll look for more. Feel free to suggest others which we can explore later.
Black aggro 2 power 1-drops
Other black 1-drops
Black 2 drop 'big with a drawback'
Black evasive 2-drops
Green pump spells
Green ramping spells
Green ramping creatures
Flicker / bounce effects (maybe break down white / blue separately?)
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good.
3 - Strong - These cards are among the top cards at providing an important effect and/or supporting a popular archetype.
2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds).
1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect.
No reason to cube - There isn't a reason to cube these over options. You might find some perfectly 'playable' cards here, but there is little reason to put them into your cube in the first place unless you are intentionally depowering an effect.
Here is what I believe to be the contenders:
I haven't included the descriptions already captured, as it will be interesting to see how people think about them as a group. You can look them on the first page if you want to. Which classification would you give each of these? After that general classification, are there specific environments where you would re-evaluate them? e.g. Maybe you'd swap in Tormented Hero over a generally more powerful version if you were pushing a pants theme. That kind of discussion is useful for updating descriptions to highlight reasons a card might be more important to individual cube managers.
EDIT: Realised I threw Carrion Feeder in there. I was initially looking at aggro oriented 1-drops, and while there are some others, the 2 power guys are where it is at, and I think Carrion Feeder is much closer than any of the other 1-drops. Maybe I should take it out, but it would be interesting to see where people place it in comparison to some of the actual 2 power creatures.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article