1) In a rare cube I can understand why people would run it when they can counter one of the numerous bomb cards like Armageddon or a game ending combo. In Peasant it will rarely do what it regularly does in a rare cube though and most of the time you'll just exchange a random value card with two other random value cards. Which is bad. This is the actual reason why I like Peasant so much. You don't need cards like Force of Will or Arcane Denial because there are hardly ever any random blowouts caused by a single card.
2) Dissolve is not that far off from the regular Counterspell, one colorless mana is not a huge difference for the decks it's played in.
3) Btw, why is Dismiss not on the list? I think it's a very decent counterspell, it's Cryptic Command's most used mode for 2UU. Can't be that terrible.
4) Plus it's of course a Time Walk. Like Remand and every other removal, bounce or burn spell ever printed. Oh no, wait...
1) I have no idea how you don't notice common situations where you lose to one particular card. Yes we don't have Armageddon or any of the reasons why I too dislike traditional cubes, but to say we lack common game ending plays is to narrow your definition to a myopic degree.
Cloudgoat ranger, pelakka wurm, any of the red sweepers, any of the black sweepers, feudkillers verdict, great oak guardian, mirror match (perhaps), control magics, reckless spite, lust for war, fire covenant, trostanis summoner, lingering souls, and maw of the obzedat are the obvious ones to me.
There are more situational ones that still end games when you're not prepared, like blastoderm and calciderm, spectral procession and battle screech, shrine of loyal legions and of burning rage, diabolic servitude, Gray merchant of asphodel, falkenrath noble, restock (well, really any regrowth effect if you know the new card is a dagger for you), serindib efreet, and numerous engine cards depending on your cube (like people who still find sprout swarm to be good).
Lastly, sometimes you just lose to a specific kind of tempo/value play like flametongue kavu or kitchen finks. Or electrolyze.
Or staggershock.
Or an X spell.
Almost none of these cards are banned in most lists, and in lists where people do play any of the cards people have banned for various reasons the list only grows.
I think the statement is ridiculous. Sometimes you're just dead to a card, and to ignore that "one random value card" has much different value in context over two random other cards is shallow reasoning to me.
2) If you don't think holding up 2 vs 3 mana is a big difference, I don't know what to say, other than you and I are playing two different styles of magic games. Which is possible, I suppose. It could be inferred that you're games are fairly different from what I could expect due to this and other statements you make.
3) See above, except for 4 mana. Cryptic command may most often be these modes, but it would not be played without the other 2. Also, I am under the impression that it's easier to play draw go in formats where cryptic command exist.
4) ?
I figure that you're picking on the expression Tomsloger used, but I'm not sure.
If you want a hard counter at a reduced mana cost for a strong tempo play (but at card disadvantage)... Force of Will seems miles ahead of Arcane Denial.
Force Spike is the worst card on the list. Yeah the "GOTCHA!" of your 1 mana counterspell is great mana/tempo advantage, but it's often dead in the mid-late game all too often, to the point where you're basically incentivized to fire it off at the first opportunity (unlike pretty much every other counterspell on this list), which isn't the kind of selective ability I want in my counterspells.
Bumping up Forbid because it's a legitimate way to lock out a game which is a function none of the other counterspells have, while still being functional in its vanilla mode.
Cannot agree more with noob about force spike. I cut it a long time ago and never looked back.
Memory lapse is a counter spell I really enjoy, especially in UG tempo decks. Makes me super happy to counter something mediocre with it early in the game and see my opponent play their mediocre spell again next turn because they are denied a draw for something better, it feels great.
I'm still not sure why I shouldn't vote for Mana Leak again if I still think it is the best on the list? Maybe more specific rules should be added that you can't + or - the same card if it was in your last 2 posts, and once the list gets less than X cards left, drop it to 2 or something? In any case, I really like Exclude which hasn't got any love yet, as a splashable counter that is card advantage that hits the most prevalent card type. Dissolve seems like a fine counterspell in a vaccuum that you would play in decks if you drafted it, but the scry seems poor when you compare it to cheaper effects, or stuff like Exclude which actually draws you a card.
EDIT: Given the number of posters, if we voted the 'same' each time, wouldn't it self-calibrate itself, except in extreme cases where EVERYONE had a different top card and a different bottom card? Also, how the hell did I post '1 minute from now?'
Yeah Bacchus I was thinking about such a rule but decided it'd be too messy. I didn't expect to people to use their first two votes on the same spell simultaneously, but that's why this is better as a social experiment than a rankings list.
Condescend is a great card. Adds flexibility to control strategies. Leaving mana up and only having to spend 2 to counter a spell, scry 2, then also play some draw cards spell is so powerful. Can definitely change the pace of a game.
I like daze, a lot more than I like force spike or essence scatter, but I personally do not feel it is up there with the rest of the counter spells listed. It's definitely a great trap in a first game, but I feel similar to force spike it gets much worse in the late game and in game 2-3 people can play around it or try and bait it too.
I'm partial to filling out the B tier before I remove a card. I know force spike and essence scatter will be dead by the next time I vote anyway. Might as well start chopping down one card I don't consider playing.
Anyway, I think this thread generated/s a very thorough conversation about a topic that it both blase and important. Do we all like remand and condescend? of course. But I', surprised to see counterspell at 15, probably half as much as people are surprised to see I'm surprised to see it. I was surprised to see force spike supporters and unabated vitriol pointed at arcane denial. This is something.
Daze doesn't deserve to go in 3 votes so it gets my +. Essence Scatter or Force Spike both need to be removed, but I axed ES because while it has a better worst-case than FS, it has nowhere near the incredible best case of FS either. That is to say, it's getting removed for being boring.
Leadfeather, if you want, make a new thread and we can do both at once. Find something you find more interesting.
I, for one, am very interested in seeing the endgame here
I'm voting down Complicate for always costing 3 and never being a hard counter. I'm voting up Miscalculation for being a counterspell that's never a dead card.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
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1) I have no idea how you don't notice common situations where you lose to one particular card. Yes we don't have Armageddon or any of the reasons why I too dislike traditional cubes, but to say we lack common game ending plays is to narrow your definition to a myopic degree.
There are more situational ones that still end games when you're not prepared, like blastoderm and calciderm, spectral procession and battle screech, shrine of loyal legions and of burning rage, diabolic servitude, Gray merchant of asphodel, falkenrath noble, restock (well, really any regrowth effect if you know the new card is a dagger for you), serindib efreet, and numerous engine cards depending on your cube (like people who still find sprout swarm to be good).
Lastly, sometimes you just lose to a specific kind of tempo/value play like flametongue kavu or kitchen finks. Or electrolyze.
Or staggershock.
Or an X spell.
Almost none of these cards are banned in most lists, and in lists where people do play any of the cards people have banned for various reasons the list only grows.
2) If you don't think holding up 2 vs 3 mana is a big difference, I don't know what to say, other than you and I are playing two different styles of magic games. Which is possible, I suppose. It could be inferred that you're games are fairly different from what I could expect due to this and other statements you make.
3) See above, except for 4 mana. Cryptic command may most often be these modes, but it would not be played without the other 2. Also, I am under the impression that it's easier to play draw go in formats where cryptic command exist.
4) ?
I figure that you're picking on the expression Tomsloger used, but I'm not sure.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Dead cards
Spell pierce
Arcane denial
Negate
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
And the gold border version is like $12.
Force Spike is the worst card on the list. Yeah the "GOTCHA!" of your 1 mana counterspell is great mana/tempo advantage, but it's often dead in the mid-late game all too often, to the point where you're basically incentivized to fire it off at the first opportunity (unlike pretty much every other counterspell on this list), which isn't the kind of selective ability I want in my counterspells.
Bumping up Forbid because it's a legitimate way to lock out a game which is a function none of the other counterspells have, while still being functional in its vanilla mode.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Cannot agree more with noob about force spike. I cut it a long time ago and never looked back.
Memory lapse is a counter spell I really enjoy, especially in UG tempo decks. Makes me super happy to counter something mediocre with it early in the game and see my opponent play their mediocre spell again next turn because they are denied a draw for something better, it feels great.
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
EDIT: Given the number of posters, if we voted the 'same' each time, wouldn't it self-calibrate itself, except in extreme cases where EVERYONE had a different top card and a different bottom card? Also, how the hell did I post '1 minute from now?'
fixed
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
sweet bro
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
Condescend is a great card. Adds flexibility to control strategies. Leaving mana up and only having to spend 2 to counter a spell, scry 2, then also play some draw cards spell is so powerful. Can definitely change the pace of a game.
I like daze, a lot more than I like force spike or essence scatter, but I personally do not feel it is up there with the rest of the counter spells listed. It's definitely a great trap in a first game, but I feel similar to force spike it gets much worse in the late game and in game 2-3 people can play around it or try and bait it too.
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
I'm partial to filling out the B tier before I remove a card. I know force spike and essence scatter will be dead by the next time I vote anyway. Might as well start chopping down one card I don't consider playing.
Anyway, I think this thread generated/s a very thorough conversation about a topic that it both blase and important. Do we all like remand and condescend? of course. But I', surprised to see counterspell at 15, probably half as much as people are surprised to see I'm surprised to see it. I was surprised to see force spike supporters and unabated vitriol pointed at arcane denial. This is something.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Daze doesn't deserve to go in 3 votes so it gets my +. Essence Scatter or Force Spike both need to be removed, but I axed ES because while it has a better worst-case than FS, it has nowhere near the incredible best case of FS either. That is to say, it's getting removed for being boring.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
I, for one, am very interested in seeing the endgame here
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
memory lapse down for being a crappy remand. remand up for being good remand.
I'm voting down Complicate for always costing 3 and never being a hard counter. I'm voting up Miscalculation for being a counterspell that's never a dead card.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.