So, when researching materials related to Civilization 5 I ran into this concept called an elimination thread.
It works like this:
All of the options start with some baseline number of points.
Roughly once per 24 hour period everybody can vote.
To vote, just copy/paste the most recent list and give +1 point to something that you think is very good and you give -3 points to something you think is very bad.
Over time the inexorable tide of negative votes forces options to hit zero and are eliminated, building the final rankings list from the bottom up. One by one, options disappear until you reach the top.
From this premise, there is a addition that I'd like to make to the system- a sympathy vote.
Once per person, we would allow one +1 sympathy vote to a card. So, if you think a card is getting a bad rap you can give it some positive attention and probably save it for a couple of turns. This is something like a "pet card" bonus, and it should cement the idea that your main votes are to be used on good cards, not cards you personally like. Again, each user only gets one.
I'm also eliminating mana drain and force of will from the pool since most of us can't afford it.
Getting to the point, here's the list before my vote...
This doesn't mean that I think Daze is the best and that Force spike is the worst. I just see them both near the ends of the spectrum (top and bottom 5) and I found it to be the most interesting pair to rank simultaneously.
Funny how that is.
Don't worry, I'm not completely insane; I'll be upvoting other cards next.
(144 starting points, and every vote is a net loss of -2 from the pool. That's ~75 votes, and with a rough estimate of about 5-7 regular contributors, 1-3 intermittent voters, and 1-3 single shot voters, that's probably about 20 days. We may be able to just get to the top 3 and rank those by their points at that juncture as to not waste time with the writing on the wall.)
The only thing I'm worried about happening is one person putting in a personal vendetta against one card and voting them out in 3 days on their own. I actually came back to edit that into the rules but don't know how to say so cleanly.
Just be reasonable with your personal hatred, I suppose.
The Sympathy vote is once per ranking (if we do more than just counterspells, you get one for the counterspell ballot, one for.. the burn ballot and so on)
Assuming I'm not forcing my usual Ux control deck, I'll take Remand higher than any other counterspell on the list (and then, probably mana leak before counterspell)
Arcane Denial is the most janky card on the list. RIP.
I chose 9 because I very roughly estimated the number of days it would take for this to go through. I originally wanted to do 12 or 15 (so multiple cards are being voted down at once, and to reduce variance) but with this many cards it seemed like it would take a while. I definitely could have been wrong, considering we've had 9 votes in 4 hours. In retrospect, I probably could/should have gone with 11. This way +1 vote isn't an immediate extra turn of survival, but two is. This keeps power out of the hands of an individual (so, for example, spike rogue singlehandedly undid the power of one negative -3 vote with his +1. But the next two + votes won't matter. That seems a little silly to me in retrospect.
Would anyone mind if I pushed everything up +2 points? The cards at 0 would be resurrected to 2 which is still ripe to be picked off, but it seems as though my estimation for the speed of the project is way off. Growing pains, guinea pigs, etc.
This mainly gives the +1 votes more time to accumulate and be relevant. Reducing variance. Etc.
For reference, the forum I saw this idea in voted on something like 60 objects.... and started at 20 points. So we're still going through very quickly.
--
Side note
I cannot believe arcane denial (a card that's played by more than one regular here if I'm up to date) was voted off before spell pierce or dissolve. Does anyone play dissolve? Anyone? I literally put it on the list to absorb negative votes and give the midtier cards a buffer.
Noob is correct in the interpretation of the sympathy vote. Was there some way I could have been clearer? I felt like I would have been too wordy otherwise. I did change the word "modification" to "addition" to try and help that.
The state of the union after Bacchus
Sympathy votes used by: Spike rogue
As a side note, I'd love to see Force of Will on here -- a gold-border one is in the same price range as a bunch of our staple cards like Path, DT, Inquisition, and Ancient Tomb, and it's totally awesome.
I sanely don't like arcane denial more than remand condescend and counterspell, but I have evolved on my position over the years to think it is certainly not garbage. Sometimes I want a definite answer and I'm not devoted to blue.
Anyway, my favorite way to look at the card is: Replace target spell with Divination. Draw a card.
If the thing I'm countering is of high priority, then yes I am willing to take the card advantage hit. Since our format grows in strength every 3 months, I am leaning towards the idea that we have long crossed when force of will belongs in more lists, especially when people are considering how cards like Great oak guardian and curse of shallow graves are often so far above the power of everything else played in a game.
Following on from something Leelue said earlier about knocking something out quickly, if there is something I consider as the 'top' card and something I consider as the 'worst' card, is there a reason I shouldn't just pick those daily until either card gets knocked off the list? I'm going to pick others in this instance, pending further comment. Mine are the same as _i0. Condescend is solid, and most decks won't have a huge number of targets for Negate, making it awkward as far as timing / holding mana open. Dissolve also should have been 11 after adding the 2 points, so I've fixed it.
I really like playing miscalculation. An almost mana leak, which I would say most consider a hard counter, but also if your opponent has tons of extra mana can always cycle it instead of letting it rot in your hand in the late game.
It's not that I hate dissolve, but I do not think it is on par with the other counter spells in that range.
@ Bacchus this is also doubling as a social experiment. You're completely right but I'm curious to see how honest and self correcting this experience goes.
I'm suddenly very sick. Literally the idea of using the forum tools to properly maneuver the copy paste and card rags sounds like too much. Can I get someone to plus arcane denial for my sympathy vote, plus condescend for my real vote, and minus dissolve for my negative. Thanks in advance.
I'm not sure why my + vote for Force Spike was considered a sympathy vote. I love the card, and that was my plus vote for the day. I may be voting for underdogs, but they're cards I really love because I'm a sucker for drafting tempo decks that use cheap splashable counterspells. I was under the impression that the sympathy vote was a one-shot + vote in addition to the regular daily + vote. Am I missing something here?
Call me bad but I honestly believe Arcane Denial is solid. I understand that the value of any two cards in a deck together is likely greater than the value of any one card, but in some cases that's not true as in this format there are cards that are wildly more powerful than others. Being able to hit anything from 'clamp to Plated Crusher is huge. Not costing UU is huge. And it still cantrips. I would not play any counterspell over it that has targeting restrictions or is >2 CMC.
i will happily finish off negate here. its a sideboard card at best.
my regular vote is on forbid for the possibility of the lock.
my sympathy vote is on remand (even though it doesnt need my sympathy) because its more of a timewalk than a counterspell at its best, and a cantrip that costs your opponent some mana at its worst.
Yeah, no. Arcane Denial is most definitely playable and better than a lot of the choices still floating around. It gets my sympathies. My actual vote goes to Forbid which is a rare spell in being able to win the game (with some support) instead of simply acting as another piece of reactive removal. Time to eliminate Spell Pierce, though.
Arcane Denial (1)+ (sympathy)
Complicate (11)
Condescend (14)
Counterspell (14)
Daze (12)
Dissolve (5)
Essence Scatter (6)
Exclude (11)
Forbid (13)+
Force Spike (6)
Mana Leak (13)
Memory Lapse (11)
Miscalculation (13)
(Negate is gone)
Remand (14)
Spell pierce (0)-
I definitely should have mentioned this before, but there is no resurrection of cards allowed. Even if the people are misguided the people have spoken.
Otherwise you could come in at the last minute and give negate the win.
Negate
That clearly can't be allowed to happen.
It works like this:
All of the options start with some baseline number of points.
Roughly once per 24 hour period everybody can vote.
To vote, just copy/paste the most recent list and give +1 point to something that you think is very good and you give -3 points to something you think is very bad.
Over time the inexorable tide of negative votes forces options to hit zero and are eliminated, building the final rankings list from the bottom up. One by one, options disappear until you reach the top.
From this premise, there is a addition that I'd like to make to the system- a sympathy vote.
Once per person, we would allow one +1 sympathy vote to a card. So, if you think a card is getting a bad rap you can give it some positive attention and probably save it for a couple of turns. This is something like a "pet card" bonus, and it should cement the idea that your main votes are to be used on good cards, not cards you personally like. Again, each user only gets one.
I'm also eliminating mana drain and force of will from the pool since most of us can't afford it.
Getting to the point, here's the list before my vote...
...and after.
This doesn't mean that I think Daze is the best and that Force spike is the worst. I just see them both near the ends of the spectrum (top and bottom 5) and I found it to be the most interesting pair to rank simultaneously.
Funny how that is.
Don't worry, I'm not completely insane; I'll be upvoting other cards next.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
peasantcube.blogspot.com
Just be reasonable with your personal hatred, I suppose.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
...
...
...
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Assuming I'm not forcing my usual Ux control deck, I'll take Remand higher than any other counterspell on the list (and then, probably mana leak before counterspell)
Arcane Denial is the most janky card on the list. RIP.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Mana Leak is all around great. Spell Pierce has multiple conditions to get it to work. Bye.
Would anyone mind if I pushed everything up +2 points? The cards at 0 would be resurrected to 2 which is still ripe to be picked off, but it seems as though my estimation for the speed of the project is way off. Growing pains, guinea pigs, etc.
This mainly gives the +1 votes more time to accumulate and be relevant. Reducing variance. Etc.
For reference, the forum I saw this idea in voted on something like 60 objects.... and started at 20 points. So we're still going through very quickly.
--
Side note
I cannot believe arcane denial (a card that's played by more than one regular here if I'm up to date) was voted off before spell pierce or dissolve. Does anyone play dissolve? Anyone? I literally put it on the list to absorb negative votes and give the midtier cards a buffer.
Noob is correct in the interpretation of the sympathy vote. Was there some way I could have been clearer? I felt like I would have been too wordy otherwise. I did change the word "modification" to "addition" to try and help that.
The state of the union after Bacchus
Sympathy votes used by: Spike rogue
or
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
As a side note, I'd love to see Force of Will on here -- a gold-border one is in the same price range as a bunch of our staple cards like Path, DT, Inquisition, and Ancient Tomb, and it's totally awesome.
A Force of Will would be (guessing) sitting around a 6 (or 8 with this +2 business).
Anyway, my favorite way to look at the card is: Replace target spell with Divination. Draw a card.
If the thing I'm countering is of high priority, then yes I am willing to take the card advantage hit. Since our format grows in strength every 3 months, I am leaning towards the idea that we have long crossed when force of will belongs in more lists, especially when people are considering how cards like Great oak guardian and curse of shallow graves are often so far above the power of everything else played in a game.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Arcane Denial (2)
Complicate (11)
Condescend (13)
Counterspell (13)
Daze (12)
Dissolve (8)-
Essence Scatter (8)
Exclude (11)
Forbid (11)
Force Spike (6)
Mana Leak (13)
Memory Lapse (11)
Miscalculation (13)+
Negate (5)
Remand (13)
Spell pierce (2)
I really like playing miscalculation. An almost mana leak, which I would say most consider a hard counter, but also if your opponent has tons of extra mana can always cycle it instead of letting it rot in your hand in the late game.
It's not that I hate dissolve, but I do not think it is on par with the other counter spells in that range.
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
I'm suddenly very sick. Literally the idea of using the forum tools to properly maneuver the copy paste and card rags sounds like too much. Can I get someone to plus arcane denial for my sympathy vote, plus condescend for my real vote, and minus dissolve for my negative. Thanks in advance.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Arcane Denial (3)+ Sympathy vote
Complicate (11)
Condescend (14)+ Real vote
Counterspell (13)
Daze (12)
Dissolve (5)-
Essence Scatter (8)
Exclude (11)
Forbid (11)
Force Spike (6)
Mana Leak (13)
Memory Lapse (11)
Miscalculation (13)
Negate (5)
Remand (13)
Spell pierce (2)
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
My votes for today:
Arcane Denial (4)+
Complicate (11)
Condescend (14)
Counterspell (13)
Daze (12)
Dissolve (5)
Essence Scatter (5)-
Exclude (11)
Forbid (11)
Force Spike (6)
Mana Leak (13)
Memory Lapse (11)
Miscalculation (13)
Negate (5)
Remand (13)
Spell pierce (2)
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Complicate (11)
Condescend (14)
Counterspell (13)
Daze (12)
Dissolve (5)
Essence Scatter (5)
Exclude (11)
Forbid (11)
Force Spike (6)
Mana Leak (13)
Memory Lapse (11)
Miscalculation (13)
Negate (2) -3
Remand (13)
Spell pierce (2)
Call me bad but I honestly believe Arcane Denial is solid. I understand that the value of any two cards in a deck together is likely greater than the value of any one card, but in some cases that's not true as in this format there are cards that are wildly more powerful than others. Being able to hit anything from 'clamp to Plated Crusher is huge. Not costing UU is huge. And it still cantrips. I would not play any counterspell over it that has targeting restrictions or is >2 CMC.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Complicate (11)
Condescend (14)
Counterspell (13)
Daze (12)
Dissolve (5)
Essence Scatter (5)
Exclude (11)
Forbid (12)+
Force Spike (6)
Mana Leak (13)
Memory Lapse (11)
Miscalculation (13)
Negate (-1)-
Remand (14)+1
Spell pierce (2)
i will happily finish off negate here. its a sideboard card at best.
my regular vote is on forbid for the possibility of the lock.
my sympathy vote is on remand (even though it doesnt need my sympathy) because its more of a timewalk than a counterspell at its best, and a cantrip that costs your opponent some mana at its worst.
Arcane Denial (2)-
Complicate (11)
Condescend (14)
Counterspell (13)
Daze (12)
Dissolve (5)
Essence Scatter (6)+
Exclude (11)
Forbid (12)+
Force Spike (6)
Mana Leak (13)
Memory Lapse (11)
Miscalculation (13)
(Negate is gone)
Remand (14)+1
Spell pierce (2)
Arcane Denial (1)+ (sympathy)
Complicate (11)
Condescend (14)
Counterspell (14)
Daze (12)
Dissolve (5)
Essence Scatter (6)
Exclude (11)
Forbid (13)+
Force Spike (6)
Mana Leak (13)
Memory Lapse (11)
Miscalculation (13)
(Negate is gone)
Remand (14)
Spell pierce (0)-
Otherwise you could come in at the last minute and give negate the win.
Negate
That clearly can't be allowed to happen.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article