So, I do some weird things with the cards I allow into my cube. My rule of thumb is that if I would pick a certain card 19 out of 20 times over another specific card, one of those cards has to be cut.
The exception is for a card that is playable in more than one color, since it can be sniped by another player outside of your color.
I've been doing this because, to me, cube is about making choices. It's about solving a puzzle. I want to have literally every card be pickable over literally every other card.I want those niche, high level decisions to point out when card A is justifiable over card B. A pipe dream, perhaps, but it has been my goal for some time to edge closer in that direction.
Usually, this is easy. Murder will never make it into my cube since it can never be chosen over ultimate price. I've cut mind control for being strictly worse than control magic. Etc.
Actually, that was a hard choice since only binding grasp was allowable next to control magic (better in decks with low blue requirements). The alternate play could have been mind control+binding grasp+volition reins...
I've actually taken that route with lightning bolt, eschewing the Bolt so I could run a variety of still-effective tier 1.5 burn spells like burst lightning.
But
This hasn't always been clean. Journey to nowhere survived in the list because of how shallow white is, but I finally was able to cut it as we've gotten better. Harm's way and temporal isolation are shifty next to swords to plowshares and path to exile, but I think very aggro decks could make some kind of case, even if they're wrong.
But there are still a few cards that are just impossible to justify ever picking over another. Skinrender in particular looks at nearly every other black 4 and dies of laughter. Shriekmaw high-fives skinrender as it beats out probably every spot removal spell. Mother of one drops in white dismantles a lot of the competition in my opinion. Serendib efreet vs latch seeker (but I do occasionally pick latch seeker because I'm a herb).
Etc
So, I guess my question would be, can you find more of these instances of cards "always" being correct choices in my list? I should get a running tally so I can figure out what cards will be watched for removal or what cards could use a support pick or two to justify inclusion.
I know many disagree with this approach, but it's hard to think about this otherwise for me. Yes, this means the power level of my cube will dip ever so slightly again, but them's the breaks.
Spined thopter is all but specifically referenced by the "can be played by other colors clause"
Sarcomancy is close, yeah. I've been justifying through glimmerpoint stag, flickerwisp, intangible virtue (which isn't in my list now) and to a way lesser extent, grey merchant of asphodel (in agressive-r decks)
Is designing your cube with 1 hand tied behind your back worth it to prevent the odd pack with a strictly better pair in them? It's only a decision that is "made for you" when they're both in the same pack. Even then, it's only a decision until the first is picked. That also means that for everyone who passed them beforehand it wasn't even the best card anyway and for everyone after the "issue" is gone.
That all said, I've certainly been moving to remove "this is better than 355 of the other cards in the cube" cards like Skullclamp since I totally agree that theyr'e bad for the draft. I just don't think the strictly better case is an "issue" often enough to be worth changing my list over.
@noob
Yes, I definitely see this as worth my time. And like I said, I have been somewhat lax when it would result in a problem for the environment: journey to nowhere filling in when I felt like white needed removal, and dance of the dead in so reanimator can have a chance. But overall I find picks bein handed to you to be abhorrent. I very strongly dislike the idea that a drafter could have been presented with card A which is a worse version of card B and there's no reasonable scenario where they can turn the disadvantage into an advantage by playing off the tradeoffs.
If I was designing my own cube with custom cards from the ground up this situation would be something on my mind the entire process. I would never let it happen.
You can see me follow through on this philosophy of maximizing decisions by the way I organize my drafts. With 2-man pods, I use quilts as often as possible and I find winston to be the devil. With 8-man pods I draft 2 packs of 20. With 4-6 man pods I usually draft oversize packs and throw away a portion at the end. Sealed pools I go to 100-110 cards.
Some amount of autopicks are inevitable, like the ones at the end of a pack, but for the ones I can control I want to.
-
@ Majikian
Yup, that's an obvious one I shouldn't have forgotten
Fledgling djinn is better in midrange, usually. Harder to get sniped for free and trades when it's in the gameplan.
Mist raven and man-o-war are close enough in power level that I say curve concerns can make mist raven a better choice often enough.
Usually, yes, but even at 5 mana I can see decks with light green requirements taking the card that always works when you cast it.
Right now I'm only running dance with the dead to make sure reanimator gets its fair trial. Otherwise, I should be inclined to agree.
Some people still pick ponder, but I think that's likely because most nonprofessional magic players havent had the endless debates we have. Also, very slight nod to ponder in combo?
I guess the Djinn vs Horror argument applies equally to Stormfront Pegasus and Soltari Trooper.
I think it would be hard for me to pick Glimmerpoint Stag over Flickerwisp.
Obvious Harm's Way and Sunlance versus Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. Would you consider playing a one-mana protection-giving instant or some other combat trick instead?
I think Anchor to the Aether is solidly the worst tempo/removal option in blue. I can't see myself picking it over bodied removal or tempo counters.
I see ~4 Warriors in black, ~6 in red, and ~2 in white. Is that enough incentive to play Blood-Chin Rager over other aggressive two-drops? I don't think I'd ever pick him over most other things in your black twos unless I already had the other warriors in my deck. Liliana's Specter versus Hippie? Reclamation Sage > Sylvok Replica
How many hoops do you have to jump through before you imagine a setting where someone picks one of these cards ahead of Demonic Tutor? Could list about the same number of white cards vs Swords to Plowshares, blue vs Mulldrifter or Control Magic, red vs FTK or Staggershock, green vs... well, that one is the least certain. Regrowth? But you get the idea.
My biggest problem isn't the idea of cutting Bolt and just using 3-4 lesser burn cards; it's that there will ALWAYS be a pick order in a given cube, and therefore some amount of "Automatic Picks" within the same color.
[cards]My biggest problem isn't the idea of cutting Bolt and just using 3-4 lesser burn cards; it's that there will ALWAYS be a pick order in a given cube, and therefore some amount of "Automatic Picks" within the same color.
I think the idea is less P1P1 and more "a deck could make an argument for one over the other". Searing Blaze is much worse in red splashes, Magma Jet could go up in control over Lightning Strike, etc.
How many hoops do you have to jump through before you imagine a setting where someone picks one of these cards ahead of Demonic Tutor? Could list about the same number of white cards vs Swords to Plowshares, blue vs Mulldrifter or Control Magic, red vs FTK or Staggershock, green vs... well, that one is the least certain. Regrowth? But you get the idea.
My biggest problem isn't the idea of cutting Bolt and just using 3-4 lesser burn cards; it's that there will ALWAYS be a pick order in a given cube, and therefore some amount of "Automatic Picks" within the same color.
Yeah noob has my idea right. There's always a pick order, but you obviously don't stick to that pick order over the entire draft. Having a cunning sparkmage and a goblin bombardment make a dividable burn spell less attractive than a spot removal job.
..
That being said, Demonic tutor should have been a card on that list, like flametongue kavu. Thanks for pointing it out.
Mulldrifter costing 5 could very well push it out of an aggro deck. Probably no control deck or midrange could pass it up though. Probably fits on the list. Control magic swapping for mind control or binding grasp would probably be best too since I could imagine passing those way more.
I'm aware of FTK will add to the list, Could imagine scenarios for most cards over staggershock, even though I think it's a top 10 card in the color.
In fact, spell-removal can often be passed if you're late in the draft and already have enough removal. That sounds contrived and niche but remember my threshold is already on the "pretty rare" side at 19/20. Do I think that for 1/20 drafts that I am in white, if I saw swords vs an elite vanguard, that my deck could have enough removal and just need a guy? 1/20 seems *fair enough* to me. If you think those odds are too high or low let me know, I don't mind having to take out very powerful cards as I've already done. I'll only mind if I suddenly feel like the color or an archetype is lacking in competitivity. Like would happen if I cut dance of the dead
I guess the Djinn vs Horror argument applies equally to Stormfront Pegasus and Soltari Trooper.
I think it would be hard for me to pick Glimmerpoint Stag over Flickerwisp.
Obvious Harm's Way and Sunlance versus Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. Would you consider playing a one-mana protection-giving instant or some other combat trick instead?
I think Anchor to the Aether is solidly the worst tempo/removal option in blue. I can't see myself picking it over bodied removal or tempo counters.
I see ~4 Warriors in black, ~6 in red, and ~2 in white. Is that enough incentive to play Blood-Chin Rager over other aggressive two-drops? I don't think I'd ever pick him over most other things in your black twos unless I already had the other warriors in my deck. Liliana's Specter versus Hippie? Reclamation Sage > Sylvok Replica
Yup
I had stag cut for a while, but the stability on the body sometimes has seemed to matter more than the cheapness and the evasion. I may make this cut again at some time, so it's not a bad question.
I think that in very hardcore aggro harm's way and sunlance could each be better choices than swords or path. If you want to close the game out before your opponent stabilizes, path could be worse than either. If you're dead to sweepers, or are looking to beat a deck slightly slower than yours, harm's way's 2 for 1 capability may make up that difference. Sunlance is harder to imagine for me personally but I could definitely see someone I may see as a worse player than myself making that choice. Giving the life in an aggro deck for swords, similarly.
Anchor to the aether, right. Would need serious spell synergy that doesn't exist.
I take liliana's specter over hippie when I expect removal or aerial combat to be an issue. All the time. Helps that I play 2 man pods a Lot so there's a lot of information.
Sylvok replica vs the sage I have actually made this exact play in a 4color deck somewhat recently, but some deck need to develop the board and can't afford to maximize their value in one shot in exchange for time. Sage is obviously miles better but I don't think it's 95%< the choice.
Given how much I've enjoyed drafting your cube, I'd be happy to help.
I notice a lack of certain top tier cards (Timely Reinforcements springs out to me) but that's more a design perspective than anything.
Anchor to the Aether ~ being sorcery speed kinda kills it for decks that aren't primarily blue: if it were 'target permanent', I'd like it a lot more. Much, much rather run any blue Bounce creature or Snap/Rushing River in tempo. Control decks will generally have access to be removal, being multiple colours. Aggro would rather run another creature in place of it.
Jungle Lion ~ I'm not going to get into the 'supporting Green aggro' debate, but *any* of the other green one drops I would run over it. If I'm running a non-ramp green one drop, I plan to have a lot of green in the early game, and then I'd rather have Arbor Elf to curve up.
Blazing Spectre ~ any red or black four drop creature. Control decks which would appreciate the *slightly* lighter mana requirements in 3 colours wouldn't run it anyway. All the red and black 4 drops play nice with EtB (Value in Peasant!? Who'd a thunk it), whilst Sureshot/Falkenrath either force damage through/allow you to trade up, or play nice with removal to let you grind out.
Is there a 'correct choice' between Duress vs. Inquisition of Kozilek vs Ostracize? They all have different effects, but is one of them more likely to hit relevant targets, or does their value shift during the draft?
I'm curious about Return to Dust, I would have assumed this fit into the 'not very good' pile, is this a result of this process?
To extend on what was said above, I assume its less about P1P1 and more about P3P1. If a card still has the same value in P3P1 as it did in P1P1 (or at least the same value if you are in that color), then that is the problem.
The three discard spells, plus Raven's crime, are all sorts of hard to evaluate side by side in a draft if you ask me. It's definitely a problem I have as a player, still. I have some platitudes but I'm sort of guessing until I get in game.
Return to dust is hoping to be more attractive than disenchant. That's all. I just put it in and haven't seen any player reactions to it. But disenchant has been ignored almost every draft. I may increase my cube to 365 to fit in 4 more artifacts and an eldrazi, and hopefully another percentage point on targets can tip mainboard narrow cards into play?
And yeah, it is about situational positioning. If you never have to think about picking a card over another one, it's kinda sad.
The exception is for a card that is playable in more than one color, since it can be sniped by another player outside of your color.
I've been doing this because, to me, cube is about making choices. It's about solving a puzzle. I want to have literally every card be pickable over literally every other card.I want those niche, high level decisions to point out when card A is justifiable over card B. A pipe dream, perhaps, but it has been my goal for some time to edge closer in that direction.
Usually, this is easy. Murder will never make it into my cube since it can never be chosen over ultimate price. I've cut mind control for being strictly worse than control magic. Etc.
Actually, that was a hard choice since only binding grasp was allowable next to control magic (better in decks with low blue requirements). The alternate play could have been mind control+binding grasp+volition reins...
I've actually taken that route with lightning bolt, eschewing the Bolt so I could run a variety of still-effective tier 1.5 burn spells like burst lightning.
But
This hasn't always been clean. Journey to nowhere survived in the list because of how shallow white is, but I finally was able to cut it as we've gotten better. Harm's way and temporal isolation are shifty next to swords to plowshares and path to exile, but I think very aggro decks could make some kind of case, even if they're wrong.
But there are still a few cards that are just impossible to justify ever picking over another. Skinrender in particular looks at nearly every other black 4 and dies of laughter. Shriekmaw high-fives skinrender as it beats out probably every spot removal spell. Mother of one drops in white dismantles a lot of the competition in my opinion. Serendib efreet vs latch seeker (but I do occasionally pick latch seeker because I'm a herb).
Etc
So, I guess my question would be, can you find more of these instances of cards "always" being correct choices in my list? I should get a running tally so I can figure out what cards will be watched for removal or what cards could use a support pick or two to justify inclusion.
I know many disagree with this approach, but it's hard to think about this otherwise for me. Yes, this means the power level of my cube will dip ever so slightly again, but them's the breaks.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Sarcomancy frequently enough be worse than Diregraf Ghoul
Sarcomancy is close, yeah. I've been justifying through glimmerpoint stag, flickerwisp, intangible virtue (which isn't in my list now) and to a way lesser extent, grey merchant of asphodel (in agressive-r decks)
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
That all said, I've certainly been moving to remove "this is better than 355 of the other cards in the cube" cards like Skullclamp since I totally agree that theyr'e bad for the draft. I just don't think the strictly better case is an "issue" often enough to be worth changing my list over.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Yes, I definitely see this as worth my time. And like I said, I have been somewhat lax when it would result in a problem for the environment: journey to nowhere filling in when I felt like white needed removal, and dance of the dead in so reanimator can have a chance. But overall I find picks bein handed to you to be abhorrent. I very strongly dislike the idea that a drafter could have been presented with card A which is a worse version of card B and there's no reasonable scenario where they can turn the disadvantage into an advantage by playing off the tradeoffs.
If I was designing my own cube with custom cards from the ground up this situation would be something on my mind the entire process. I would never let it happen.
You can see me follow through on this philosophy of maximizing decisions by the way I organize my drafts. With 2-man pods, I use quilts as often as possible and I find winston to be the devil. With 8-man pods I draft 2 packs of 20. With 4-6 man pods I usually draft oversize packs and throw away a portion at the end. Sealed pools I go to 100-110 cards.
Some amount of autopicks are inevitable, like the ones at the end of a pack, but for the ones I can control I want to.
-
@ Majikian
Yup, that's an obvious one I shouldn't have forgotten
Fledgling djinn is better in midrange, usually. Harder to get sniped for free and trades when it's in the gameplan.
Mist raven and man-o-war are close enough in power level that I say curve concerns can make mist raven a better choice often enough.
Usually, yes, but even at 5 mana I can see decks with light green requirements taking the card that always works when you cast it.
Right now I'm only running dance with the dead to make sure reanimator gets its fair trial. Otherwise, I should be inclined to agree.
Some people still pick ponder, but I think that's likely because most nonprofessional magic players havent had the endless debates we have. Also, very slight nod to ponder in combo?
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I think it would be hard for me to pick Glimmerpoint Stag over Flickerwisp.
Obvious Harm's Way and Sunlance versus Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. Would you consider playing a one-mana protection-giving instant or some other combat trick instead?
I think Anchor to the Aether is solidly the worst tempo/removal option in blue. I can't see myself picking it over bodied removal or tempo counters.
I see ~4 Warriors in black, ~6 in red, and ~2 in white. Is that enough incentive to play Blood-Chin Rager over other aggressive two-drops? I don't think I'd ever pick him over most other things in your black twos unless I already had the other warriors in my deck.
Liliana's Specter versus Hippie?
Reclamation Sage > Sylvok Replica
Draft my Peasant Cube.
How many hoops do you have to jump through before you imagine a setting where someone picks one of these cards ahead of Demonic Tutor? Could list about the same number of white cards vs Swords to Plowshares, blue vs Mulldrifter or Control Magic, red vs FTK or Staggershock, green vs... well, that one is the least certain. Regrowth? But you get the idea.
My biggest problem isn't the idea of cutting Bolt and just using 3-4 lesser burn cards; it's that there will ALWAYS be a pick order in a given cube, and therefore some amount of "Automatic Picks" within the same color.
I think the idea is less P1P1 and more "a deck could make an argument for one over the other".
Searing Blaze is much worse in red splashes, Magma Jet could go up in control over Lightning Strike, etc.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Yeah noob has my idea right. There's always a pick order, but you obviously don't stick to that pick order over the entire draft. Having a cunning sparkmage and a goblin bombardment make a dividable burn spell less attractive than a spot removal job.
..
That being said, Demonic tutor should have been a card on that list, like flametongue kavu. Thanks for pointing it out.
Mulldrifter costing 5 could very well push it out of an aggro deck. Probably no control deck or midrange could pass it up though. Probably fits on the list. Control magic swapping for mind control or binding grasp would probably be best too since I could imagine passing those way more.
I'm aware of FTK will add to the list, Could imagine scenarios for most cards over staggershock, even though I think it's a top 10 card in the color.
In fact, spell-removal can often be passed if you're late in the draft and already have enough removal. That sounds contrived and niche but remember my threshold is already on the "pretty rare" side at 19/20. Do I think that for 1/20 drafts that I am in white, if I saw swords vs an elite vanguard, that my deck could have enough removal and just need a guy? 1/20 seems *fair enough* to me. If you think those odds are too high or low let me know, I don't mind having to take out very powerful cards as I've already done. I'll only mind if I suddenly feel like the color or an archetype is lacking in competitivity. Like would happen if I cut dance of the dead
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Yup
I had stag cut for a while, but the stability on the body sometimes has seemed to matter more than the cheapness and the evasion. I may make this cut again at some time, so it's not a bad question.
I think that in very hardcore aggro harm's way and sunlance could each be better choices than swords or path. If you want to close the game out before your opponent stabilizes, path could be worse than either. If you're dead to sweepers, or are looking to beat a deck slightly slower than yours, harm's way's 2 for 1 capability may make up that difference. Sunlance is harder to imagine for me personally but I could definitely see someone I may see as a worse player than myself making that choice. Giving the life in an aggro deck for swords, similarly.
Anchor to the aether, right. Would need serious spell synergy that doesn't exist.
I take liliana's specter over hippie when I expect removal or aerial combat to be an issue. All the time. Helps that I play 2 man pods a Lot so there's a lot of information.
Sylvok replica vs the sage I have actually made this exact play in a 4color deck somewhat recently, but some deck need to develop the board and can't afford to maximize their value in one shot in exchange for time. Sage is obviously miles better but I don't think it's 95%< the choice.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I notice a lack of certain top tier cards (Timely Reinforcements springs out to me) but that's more a design perspective than anything.
Anchor to the Aether ~ being sorcery speed kinda kills it for decks that aren't primarily blue: if it were 'target permanent', I'd like it a lot more. Much, much rather run any blue Bounce creature or Snap/Rushing River in tempo. Control decks will generally have access to be removal, being multiple colours. Aggro would rather run another creature in place of it.
Jungle Lion ~ I'm not going to get into the 'supporting Green aggro' debate, but *any* of the other green one drops I would run over it. If I'm running a non-ramp green one drop, I plan to have a lot of green in the early game, and then I'd rather have Arbor Elf to curve up.
Blazing Spectre ~ any red or black four drop creature. Control decks which would appreciate the *slightly* lighter mana requirements in 3 colours wouldn't run it anyway. All the red and black 4 drops play nice with EtB (Value in Peasant!? Who'd a thunk it), whilst Sureshot/Falkenrath either force damage through/allow you to trade up, or play nice with removal to let you grind out.
Hope that helps!
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I'm curious about Return to Dust, I would have assumed this fit into the 'not very good' pile, is this a result of this process?
To extend on what was said above, I assume its less about P1P1 and more about P3P1. If a card still has the same value in P3P1 as it did in P1P1 (or at least the same value if you are in that color), then that is the problem.
Return to dust is hoping to be more attractive than disenchant. That's all. I just put it in and haven't seen any player reactions to it. But disenchant has been ignored almost every draft. I may increase my cube to 365 to fit in 4 more artifacts and an eldrazi, and hopefully another percentage point on targets can tip mainboard narrow cards into play?
And yeah, it is about situational positioning. If you never have to think about picking a card over another one, it's kinda sad.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article