So I've been trying to get one of my pet decks to work in my Cube and I feel like there are FINALLY enough enablers. I speak of course of the Kiln Fiend deck.
Historically we have only really had Kiln Fiend, Wee Dragonauts and Nivix Cyclops as pay off cards for this kind of effect but with Kahns block we have got prowess, a similar mechanic just scaled down a bit.
The archetype revolves around:
Creatures/Pay Off
Kiln Fiend: Namesake of the Archetype and our two drop of Choice Wee Dragonauts/Nivix Cyclops: The best three drops for the deck with Dragonauts being better because of the evasion (duh!) Delver of Secrets: This is one of the few Cube decks I know which can actually support this little fellow and have him be useful! Jeskai Sage/Jeskai Windscout/Lotus Path Djinn/Whirlwind Adept: Prowess Blue creatures, again those with Evasion are best in this deck. Bloodfire Expert: Probably too weak for many cubes but I'm really trying to push this deck! Elusive Spellfist: Another evasive creature for the two drop slot. Zephyr Scribe: Card quality, allows better potential for comboing off!
The deck will also play any burn spells it can get its hands on as well as as many cantrips as possible. Also worth noting, buyback spells are a very high pick for this deck (although they tend to be pretty god anyway).
So those are my thoughts on sketching this out, what does everyone think? Have I missed anything really obvious? Is this just a stupid deck that will never work (I've seen it work so I'm fairly confident in can be a thing)?
I wouldnt go too deep with the enablers. Some niche cards for the archetype like the strikes are ok but simple unblockable is too bad. Same with the pumpspells. This deck works best as a tempo deck featuring the tempocards Daze, Manaleak, Snap, Repulse, Repeal etc. along with the U-cantrips and some burn.
Prowess isnt strong enough imo, exept the Whirlwind, which is pretty much wincon nr.1, because you run very few creatures in this deck and youll end up weak to removal.
May I ask why Young Pyromancer hasn't been making lists of Spells Matter creatures for this archetype? Seems like a natural fit in R/x spells matter (I'd even run it in G or B with land search or removal respectively). Sure, it's an uncommon but if you're open to running a few, I think it offers enough value to warrant a space.
That's why. Also, I doubt think there's enough counterplay to Young Pyromancer in pauper cube - we don't really have sweepers, and it gets out of hand really quickly.
Just to confirm what k_alk said, its an uncommon, I play a bunch of cards which have been printed as uncommons but only if they have also been printed as a common (or released as one digitally) so Young Peezy was never really a consideration.
That said, I'd play the hell out of YP at common, although that does seem a little busted
Similarly, RB makes a good home for Kiln Fiend as well, just as it did in ROE. You have removal to clear the way, discard to disrupt the opponent, recursion to get back the Kiln Fiend, and spells like Aphotic Wisps and Dirge of Dread to grant evasion.
Thanks for that guys, I'd been under the impression that uncommons were allowed in pauper on a limited basis. I can see how YP might quickly take over the board.
I've had Kiln Fiend in my cube along with the Prowess cards, and they've seemed okay so far, but at this point I'm mostly running them because I can't figure out what else to do with UR... most UR themes seem parasitic.
Slightly off topic but if you don't like Kiln Fiend for UR then might I suggest counter-burn control? Does what is says on the tin, use counterspells and burn to control the game early and finish with something like Errant Ephemeron
Another option is UR pingers, with Tim, Stinging Barrier, Fireslinger, Sparksmith, Spikeshot Goblin, Vithian Stinger, Fire Whip, and Razorfin Hunter. You control the board with them, and slowly sting opponent's life.
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Holiday Armadillo... Cloak
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
Yeah, it doesn't need support but you might evaluate some cards differently in an attempt to push it a bit. You don't always have to really heavily push archetypes (like this one) for them to be archetypes that fill out your guild slots.
Desperately trying to keep this thread a bit more on topic: I agree with some of the above comments, Kiln Fiend works well in several shells, which is why I think it should get a slot in the cube, I just think UR is the best shell for it. The Gold cards support it and help signal the archetype, they are really good with Cantrips and Burn, and if you are really pushing the deck then I really like effects that make them truly unblockable (rather than just giving fear or w/e).
To me, the problem with the archetype as an archetype is that It hasn't got enough creatures that synergise well with it.
Are you Crazy, Mero? Look at the list up there!
Nope. I don't agree with the list on the following base: I think that Kiln-type creatures and Prowess-type creatures, are very different, and work on different strategies.
Kiln guys benefit from not being blocked, because they add +x/+0, where x is greater than 1. As a result, they are good with bounce, removal, evasion-grant, and noblock.
Prowess guys benefit from being blocked, because they add +1/+1, so they turn every non-creature spell on a combat trick. And combat tricks work, well, on combat. So they are not so good with bounce, evasion-grant, and noblock (removal is good on every deck, people!)
As a result, kiln creatures can close the game pretty quickly by dealing high amounts of damage using a few spells that allow them to attack right to the face. While Prowess guys need more time, and more spells, to sistematically defeat the opponent's creatures that fall to the combat-trick-situation.
When you face an opponent with a kiln guy, you WANT to block it, at least if the opponent has its lands untapped. When you face a prowess opponent creature, you don't want to block it, at least not if the opponent has its lands untapped.
All that said, I think that prowess creatures work too different from kiln creatures, and as a result a deck who has both will have many non-bo situations.
And if my annalisis is correct, then the only kiln creatures we really have are Kiln Fiend itself, Nivix Cyclops and Wee Dragonauts. Too few for an actual deck with those, unless they are good on their own.
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Holiday Armadillo... Cloak
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
The Nivix Cyclops is the best on its own, for the reasons you expressed, Runner.
The problem with Kiln is that when you start comparing, it falls behind many red 2 drops. A consistent 3/2 is way better than a 1/2 that sometimes is 4/2. I don't play it right now but it could return some day.
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Holiday Armadillo... Cloak
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
No one has mentioned this yet, but Storm cards also have synergy with Kiln Fiend style creatures in that you want to cast multiple spells in a turn. Storm's pretty parasitic too, but I just wanted to throw it out there. Ground Rift comes to mind especially.
-Kiln Fiend, Wee Dragonauts and Nivix Cyclops are all actually fine cards. Including them doesn't come at that much of a cost.
-None of the prowess cards are very good. I run Jeskai Sage to accommodate a sacrifice theme and I've been running Bloodfire Expert. Neither of them are all that exciting. I'm even considering cutting the Sage for something like Augury Owl or Owl Familiar because there's more X/1's with Flying to block than grounded guys and looting and Scrying immediately might even be better than death trigger drawing...
-Rift Bolt is a cool card with Kiln Fiend and friends. You can setup turns to play Fiend, suspend Rift Bolt, pass, untap, play Taigam's Stike, and go to town.
This matches my approach. I don't explicitly put enablers but Kiln/Cyclops/Wee are good, even if you cast normal instants/sorceries.
The only thing I added is Artful Dodge, because I have a sabateur theme in blue.
So I've been trying to get one of my pet decks to work in my Cube and I feel like there are FINALLY enough enablers. I speak of course of the Kiln Fiend deck.
Historically we have only really had Kiln Fiend, Wee Dragonauts and Nivix Cyclops as pay off cards for this kind of effect but with Kahns block we have got prowess, a similar mechanic just scaled down a bit.
The archetype revolves around:
Creatures/Pay Off
Enablers
The deck will also play any burn spells it can get its hands on as well as as many cantrips as possible. Also worth noting, buyback spells are a very high pick for this deck (although they tend to be pretty god anyway).
So those are my thoughts on sketching this out, what does everyone think? Have I missed anything really obvious? Is this just a stupid deck that will never work (I've seen it work so I'm fairly confident in can be a thing)?
Prowess isnt strong enough imo, exept the Whirlwind, which is pretty much wincon nr.1, because you run very few creatures in this deck and youll end up weak to removal.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
That's why. Also, I doubt think there's enough counterplay to Young Pyromancer in pauper cube - we don't really have sweepers, and it gets out of hand really quickly.
That said, I'd play the hell out of YP at common, although that does seem a little busted
Similarly, RB makes a good home for Kiln Fiend as well, just as it did in ROE. You have removal to clear the way, discard to disrupt the opponent, recursion to get back the Kiln Fiend, and spells like Aphotic Wisps and Dirge of Dread to grant evasion.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
Desperately trying to keep this thread a bit more on topic: I agree with some of the above comments, Kiln Fiend works well in several shells, which is why I think it should get a slot in the cube, I just think UR is the best shell for it. The Gold cards support it and help signal the archetype, they are really good with Cantrips and Burn, and if you are really pushing the deck then I really like effects that make them truly unblockable (rather than just giving fear or w/e).
Are you Crazy, Mero? Look at the list up there!
Nope. I don't agree with the list on the following base: I think that Kiln-type creatures and Prowess-type creatures, are very different, and work on different strategies.
Kiln guys benefit from not being blocked, because they add +x/+0, where x is greater than 1. As a result, they are good with bounce, removal, evasion-grant, and noblock.
Prowess guys benefit from being blocked, because they add +1/+1, so they turn every non-creature spell on a combat trick. And combat tricks work, well, on combat. So they are not so good with bounce, evasion-grant, and noblock (removal is good on every deck, people!)
As a result, kiln creatures can close the game pretty quickly by dealing high amounts of damage using a few spells that allow them to attack right to the face. While Prowess guys need more time, and more spells, to sistematically defeat the opponent's creatures that fall to the combat-trick-situation.
When you face an opponent with a kiln guy, you WANT to block it, at least if the opponent has its lands untapped. When you face a prowess opponent creature, you don't want to block it, at least not if the opponent has its lands untapped.
All that said, I think that prowess creatures work too different from kiln creatures, and as a result a deck who has both will have many non-bo situations.
And if my annalisis is correct, then the only kiln creatures we really have are Kiln Fiend itself, Nivix Cyclops and Wee Dragonauts. Too few for an actual deck with those, unless they are good on their own.
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
Spells that put some 1/1 tokens with prowess, tokens who grow when casting other tokens-spells.
But sadly nothing like that in common.
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
The problem with Kiln is that when you start comparing, it falls behind many red 2 drops. A consistent 3/2 is way better than a 1/2 that sometimes is 4/2. I don't play it right now but it could return some day.
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
This matches my approach. I don't explicitly put enablers but Kiln/Cyclops/Wee are good, even if you cast normal instants/sorceries.
The only thing I added is Artful Dodge, because I have a sabateur theme in blue.
Just noticed, both new surge cards Goblin Freerunner and Jwar Isle Avenger are fitting the archetype very well and encourage to add/play the freespells Gitaxian Probe, Mutagenic Growth and Gut Shot as well.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t