If I had a second copy of Standstill or if it wasn't a super expensive uncommon that I refuse to pay for, I'd totally have a copy of it in my peasant cube. I run it in my rare cube and absolutely love it. If you have one lying around that you can spare, I'd definitely give it a shot. There's nothing better than having your opponent crack it and then drawing the counter you need.
You'll also occasionally have a player that plays it incorrectly and it ends up netting you three cards. If you're ahead or if the board is empty, drop a Standstill. Your blue deck should be able to out last your opponent on an empty board. If you've got a threat down, they'll have to crack the Standstill or die to your threat. I love playing something like Man-o'-War on their only guy and then playing Standstill. Then it's like, either die from my 2/2 or kill it and give me three cards.
You'll also occasionally have a player that plays it incorrectly and it ends up netting you three cards.
I was actually thinking that a lot of players were going to play it wrong. Like you said: It's good when the board position is favorable (or at least neutral), and it's not if you're behind.
I don't like the idea of an opponent's misplays factoring into my I evaluations. At all.
Also, in blue, even in my cube you're more likely to be behind in the first 4-6 turns. The times where I'd be able to play this early to take advantage of its CMC seem insanely low.
I don't like the idea of an opponent's misplays factoring into my I evaluations. At all.
Also, in blue, even in my cube you're more likely to be behind in the first 4-6 turns. The times where I'd be able to play this early to take advantage of its CMC seem insanely low.
Well, it shouldn't be the one and only reason you include a card, but it can certainly be a nice added bonus.
I don't think Standstill, despite it's low casting cost, is really meant for play in the first few turns of the game. I've definitely played it during those turns on an empty board, but that's usually the exception and not the norm. For the most part, it comes down at the same time something like Armageddon would. Once you get a little bit ahead, you play Standstill force them to break it in order to deal with your board position. Even if they answer your threat, you still get +3 cards in your hand which will most likely either be another threat or a counter for their answer. And if you draw three blanks, be glad that you don't have to spend the next three turns ripping blanks on your draw step.
It's a slightly complicated card to play and does require some skill in board evaluation and knowing when is the right time to run it out and when is the right time to hold it, but so far it's been nothing short of great for us. I really wish I had a second copy.
For the most part, it comes down at the same time something like Armageddon would.
I think that's the key here. Common / Uncommon lacks Armageddon and Mana Barb type effects, so I think at least testing out standstill to use it in that manner would be nifty.
Yep. At C/U, there's few cards that say, "Get ahead, play this, probably win". There's no Geddon or Winter Orb or Nether Void or Upheaval. Standstill is nice as something that's not so powerful as Geddon, but still has some inherent power and can often be a devastating blow to the opponent.
See, the issue is that standstill really is best when played on turn two. It is also most potent when you have manland to circumvent it.
If you are playing it on turns 6+ then you are using it functionally the same way as you would Jaces erasure, and you aren't taking advantage of its cmc anymore. Since you absolutely positively cannot play the card if you are even the slightest bit behind on the board, which is more common for blue than for any other color, I just can't imagine it being better than a card that naturally draws 3 cards and puts you back in the game Right Now. I just cannot see it.
Armageddon isn't a fair comparison. Building a white based aggro deck is incredibly easy and casting it on curve is commonplace.
Also, there are plenty of cards that go "get ahead and win". Just in my blue section count Tidings, Jodah's avenger, Volition reins, Mulldrifter, Control magic, Fencer clique, sleep, forbid, benthicore and capsize. That's ten cards that almost never lose the game when you stabilize. Nucklavee, even if its only getting back psionic blast, could qualify as well. Blue is not short on win more cards.
See, the issue is that standstill really is best when played on turn two. It is also most potent when you have manland to circumvent it.
That's not really the case, though. I mean, if you can go Treetop Village, Island, Standstill, some land, attack for three, that's definitely an ideal way to play the card. But that's not when it's "best." That scenario will almost never happen.
If you are playing it on turns 6+ then you are using it functionally the same way as you would Jaces erasure, and you aren't taking advantage of its cmc anymore. Since you absolutely positively cannot play the card if you are even the slightest bit behind on the board, which is more common for blue than for any other color, I just can't imagine it being better than a card that naturally draws 3 cards and puts you back in the game Right Now. I just cannot see it.
I don't understand the connection between Standstill and Jace's Erasure. One is a fairly useless mill engine and the other stalls the game or draws you three cards. And you're absolutely taking advantage of it's cmc. That's like saying that you'd rather have Tidings on turn six than Ancestral Recall because it'll draw you more cards.
Most of the time, if played correctly, Standstill will naturally draw you three cards. Play my Air Elemental, bounce or destroy your blocker, drop Standstill, go. Now I'm in a win/win situation. You either play a blocker, which cracks my Standstill and draws me three cards. Or you destroy my flyer, which cracks my Standstill and draws me three cards. Not to mention that the spell doesn't have to resolve for Standstill to trigger, so I might very well draw a counter for your spell.
Armageddon isn't a fair comparison. Building a white based aggro deck is incredibly easy and casting it on curve is commonplace.
Sure it is. It's played the same way. It's certainly more powerful than Standstill, but they are definitely played similarly. I've seen UG midrange decks play dude, dude, dude, Standstill the same way a RW aggro deck would play dude, dude, dude, Armageddon. They are both examples of "Get ahead, play this card, probably win" types of cards.
Also, there are plenty of cards that go "get ahead and win". Just in my blue section count Tidings, Jodah's avenger, Volition reins, Mulldrifter, Control magic, Fencer clique, sleep, forbid, benthicore and capsize. That's ten cards that almost never lose the game when you stabilize. Nucklavee, even if its only getting back psionic blast, could qualify as well. Blue is not short on win more cards.
Those aren't really get ahead and win types of cards, though, at least not in the same sense that Armageddon and Standstill are. All of those cards are cards that, if you play them when you're ahead, they'll put you that much further ahead, but don't really seal the deal. Sleep, Capsize, and maybe Forbid would probably qualify the same way that I feel that Armageddon and Standstill qualify. The rest are just solid cards, a lot of which, I don't even run. I also don't view them as "win more" since they don't really make you win any harder.
The bottom line is I think you should give Standstill a shot before you dismiss it. I had reservations before I put it in my cube too, but since it's inclusion it's been amazing. It's likely never leaving at this point. I love it.
I chose Indrik over Wickerbough because Indrik will always be a 4/4. Wickerbough can come down a turn earlier, but has to spend time as a 3/3 before he blows anything up.
And Strip Mine is the board and the deck because I forgot to delete it when I was building in Notepad.
I have an issue when people talk about magic cards. It's like people just restate what the cards do.
Sayin that stomphowler is always a 4/4 but wickerbough can come down a turn early is just a restatement of the cards' stats. Without going into mana curve considerations, or mentioning that stomp may be forced to shoot one of your cards (or the significantly more relevant "wickerbough elder can come down on turn 5 and for all intents and purposes have the same cmc as stomphowler when you use the ability"), a judgment was made. We are supposed to go more in depth here.
But yeah, again, wickerbough is a 4/4 just as much as stomphowler. Except for the rare, rare game where you run either one out late game without a target, the tree is functionally the same, but much more flexible.
Also, I would run briarhorn out over wall of blossoms. You want to blow up lands so you can kill them when they are off balance. You can't kill them with walls, and that extra dig down may or may not be as relevant as having a relevant set of bodies.
Briarhorn is very often a 2fer and is one of the most devastating combat tricks in cube. I also have never once thought anyone got their manas worth when they activated a skirk marauder. I wouldn't pay for a grey ogre that can shock once for 3 mana in cube (and shrink while its at it), and tacking on "i can be coral merfolk too!" isn't exactly enticing.
I have an issue when people talk about magic cards. It's like people just restate what the cards do.
Sayin that stomphowler is always a 4/4 but wickerbough can come down a turn early is just a restatement of the cards' stats. Without going into mana curve considerations, or mentioning that stomp may be forced to shoot one of your cards (or the significantly more relevant "wickerbough elder can come down on turn 5 and for all intents and purposes have the same cmc as stomphowler when you use the ability"), a judgment was made. We are supposed to go more in depth here.
I didn't feel there was a need to go more in depth. I didn't feel like I needed an extra Disenchant effect and neither losing a p/t to come down a turn earlier or paying an extra green for the same effect was worth it for me. I'd also rather have a 4/4 that didn't do anything than a 3/3 with a counter on it that can't blow anything up because there's no targets. The only thing that I have that I might have to hit with Indrik is the Signet.
But yeah, again, wickerbough is a 4/4 just as much as stomphowler. Except for the rare, rare game where you run either one out late game without a target, the tree is functionally the same, but much more flexible.
Disagree, at least in my C/U cube. I often find myself with a lack of (worthy) targets for Disenchant effects. The artifacts aren't all that powerful and aren't played as prominently as they are in my rare cube. Blowing up a Signet on turn five with Wickerbough is hardly game breaking. Unless my opponent has an Icy or Warhammer (or similar), a card like Wickerbough often stays at a 3/3 until either I have a target that really need to destroy or until I really need a 4/4.
Also, I would run briarhorn out over wall of blossoms. You want to blow up lands so you can kill them when they are off balance. You can't kill them with walls, and that extra dig down may or may not be as relevant as having a relevant set of bodies.
I chose the Wall because I didn't have a lot of early game. I think my late game guys will be enough to get there, but if I die before I can get those guys online, then it was all for nothing. The wall helps to hold off early beats from my opponent and cantrips. Briarhorn would just be more redundancy in the late game and I didn't feel that was as important as the early blocker.
Briarhorn is very often a 2fer and is one of the most devastating combat tricks in cube. I also have never once thought anyone got their manas worth when they activated a skirk marauder. I wouldn't pay for a grey ogre that can shock once for 3 mana in cube (and shrink while its at it), and tacking on "i can be coral merfolk too!" isn't exactly enticing.
This is possibly a change I could get behind with the deck, although I disagree 100% on Skirk Marauder. He's like a Ghitu Slinger that hits a turn later. He's in the cube because red wants creatures like that. I don't like him as much as Slinger or even Fire Imp, but he's solid and I've never been disappointed by him.
But, in this case and the specific deck, Briarhorn is probably the better card. The surprise blocker and potential 2-for-1 is more valuable than that random two damage.
maybe I run more artifacts in my cube than you do. Around turn 5, theres something to blow up 75% of the time, so I'm used to wickerbough being a 5 mana 4/4 just as often.
Let's see
update on m12 cards
goblin fireslinger has been rockin it. It dealt almost all of the damage yesterday against the deck with ghostly prison, propaganda, plumeveil, icy manipulator, gideons lawkeeper and goldmeadow harrier.
Alabaster mage put a game away when teamed up with cloudgoat ranger.
Azure mage was solid.
blood ogre was underwhelming, but it still is going to be tested.
I'm pretty sure Cloudgoat Ranger usually just puts games away, regardless of the aid of the mage or not.
I agree with your take on Azure Mage, and Jade Mage. They were really good mana sinks and were very "bomb-like."
Blood Ogre was ok in our draft, but he wasn't drafted by a red aggro deck so I'm sure he'd be fine if he was picked by one of those players instead. I just recently got Stormblood Berserker, Frost Breath, and Volcanic Dragon, so I'm eager to test them out when I draft again soon.
Well, my last one prompted at least a small amount of discussion and it makes me sad to think this thread might go the way of the dodo, so here's another TappedOut.net draft of my peasant cube. Once again the question is what would you have done differently and why?
I for one have no intentions of letting this thread die. But my phone did. Since thats my only way to access the internet, with it, so did my contributions to the thread. I'll have a replacement soon enough.
I'm on a friend's laptop now
So
In the meantime
I can finally type with efficiency
Ok
So your deck is, how you say, not aggressive at all. It seems as though all of your wins will come out of air elemental, or a fireball for 16. So, I would suggest trying to alleviate the burden on those two cards.
You also put repeal in the counter section. Just saying.
Memory lapse is almost always good (like remand). This is virtually a universal truth.
Thing is, your deck doesn't have the structure to best take advantage of it. As good as it is, and it is, The best memory lapses either let your guys keep pressure on, beat out combat tricks, or help make coming back impossible off of some opponent's late game filler play. Since your deck doesn't really apply much pressure, memory lapse is sort of "functional". It does help that you have dismiss in the deck, which makes a third turn remand/dismiss just Ballin' for you, but I felt as though I should say the optimization for the card is a tad lacking. I'd like to see if that can be altered somewhat.
So off the bat, Impaler shrike is another potential win condition, and tormenter exarch is a semi-decent dude that can make beats if the weather allows. In addition, upon first glance, I am a bit interested in seeing if sejiri refuge will support the ever-amazing faith's fetters. But I digress. There probably won't be enough time to go into it, I just suggest that you think about it. Your deck has probems with resolved things with toughness. I prefer rift bolt in your deck over arc trail for that reason; you have enough card advantage and selection to make the 2fer1 on arc trail less impressive. Sometimes, you just need to kill a dude (not to mention how sick it is suspended next to a staggershock. Zing!)
Frost breath is like a mutated Holy day in your deck, made worse due to the fact that you really can't take advantage by swinging back or using the free time to make your board state significant (not counting the 3 cards in your deck that make up your board presence). It's time for the sake of time, and I would think that the Exarch would perform a similar function while helping you more in the long term.*
I hesitate to remove a counterspell. Any one of them is potentially an argument waiting to happen if I were to call one out. But the thing is, since so many of them are soft counters, and since you don't have a significant number of way to deal with someone's second or third threat (losing fireball to a dude sucks for you, but it does what it has to), I would suggest dropping one of the soft counters for either impaler shrike or blind with anger. Shrike lets you have a clock to allow your man-o-war and other cards to shine. The red spell is a complete house some games, and I would even suggest losing a total of two counters (not daze, as much as I dislike the card) or even a counter and the weakest removal spell (probably arc trail in this deck) to maximize the density of cards your opponent will have to care about.
Gigantic aside
I've been running 17lands/24cards for the last 6 months as my base and haven't looked back. Of course I adjust if my deck shows signs of needing it (to 16/24, 18/23, or 17/23), however, 17/24 is as close as possible to playing 25 lands in a 60 card deck (16/24 in limited is also exactly the same as playing 24/36 in constructed, in case the ratio never caught anyone's attention). Mathematically, 17/40 is very close to playing 26 lands in standard, which is a little too high for my blood in a format where games are expected to hit turn 8-12 or even more (also known as every limited environment except for zendikar). In cube, the old "it is one less card in the way of drawing the card you want" mantra rings significantly less true, since, in cube, all of the cards you draw should be good cards to draw (barring desperate circumstances). Since 80% of the game is usually played out in the midgame, you should be caring about threat density a little more than threat quality, especially since the threat disparity of your cards shouldn't waver too much in this format.
In the end, I've tracked about the same number of mana droughts and floods, but in the games where mana is about stable, every time I draw that 41'st card I know that I have that one extra threat that keeps the game in my favor. Of course, if your'e 41'st card is whacksauce, don't bother. Only do it if you'd be cutting value.
...
All of that was basically there to say that I would toss in the Izzet signet. Condescend and Repeal will both love you for it. Either that, or swap an Island for Sejiri Refuge and slap Faith's Fetters on that bad boy. 3 sources that produce white and another color are plenty enough to justify running one of the best white removal spells of all time. I hear turning off crystal shard and loxadon warhammer are nice things to do too...
So yeah, I had a lot of thoughts. I hope some of that was interesting for you/anyone else reading.
*I don't like tormentor exarch. Not outside of scars. I really, really, really, dont think it's a good card. It does something... something, yes, but I think that's not a good enough argument. I shouldn't be able to look at two cards in my cube (this and flametongue kavu) and have my face stuck in frown mode. I know, the comparison is unfair (kavu IS god and all), but that's the point. You should be able to find more powerful, and more interesting-to-play cards.
Alternates that don't get a lot of fanfare that I suggest are Battle-rattle shaman (serious business, no joke. The fact that his ability is free is what makes him playable and he does not disappoint, I guarantee this.) and Riddle of lightning (The card's value is nothing short of delicious. It's about as close to Prophetic Bolt as we'll ever get). Assuming, of course, that you aren't playing them. I swear by both of these cards.
I for one have no intentions of letting this thread die. But my phone did. Since thats my only way to access the internet, with it, so did my contributions to the thread. I'll have a replacement soon enough.
I'm on a friend's laptop now
So
In the meantime
I can finally type with efficiency
Damn, that's a bummer. Good luck on the replacement!
So your deck is, how you say, not aggressive at all. It seems as though all of your wins will come out of air elemental, or a fireball for 16. So, I would suggest trying to alleviate the burden on those two cards.
I didn't mean for the deck to be aggressive. I meant for it to be very controlling. Counter counter counter removal removal removal. I think the biggest problem I see is the combination of tempo and control with cards like Man-o'-War and Memory Lapse not really fitting in.
So off the bat, Impaler shrike is another potential win condition, and tormenter exarch is a semi-decent dude that can make beats if the weather allows. In addition, upon first glance, I am a bit interested in seeing if sejiri refuge will support the ever-amazing faith's fetters. But I digress. There probably won't be enough time to go into it, I just suggest that you think about it. Your deck has probems with resolved things with toughness. I prefer rift bolt in your deck over arc trail for that reason; you have enough card advantage and selection to make the 2fer1 on arc trail less impressive. Sometimes, you just need to kill a dude (not to mention how sick it is suspended next to a staggershock. Zing!)
This is all good advice. The Shrike and the Exarch should both make it in and Rift Bolt should have gotten the nod over Fireblast.
Frost breath is like a mutated Holy day in your deck, made worse due to the fact that you really can't take advantage by swinging back or using the free time to make your board state significant (not counting the 3 cards in your deck that make up your board presence). It's time for the sake of time, and I would think that the Exarch would perform a similar function while helping you more in the long term.*
I hesitate to remove a counterspell. Any one of them is potentially an argument waiting to happen if I were to call one out. But the thing is, since so many of them are soft counters, and since you don't have a significant number of way to deal with someone's second or third threat (losing fireball to a dude sucks for you, but it does what it has to), I would suggest dropping one of the soft counters for either impaler shrike or blind with anger. Shrike lets you have a clock to allow your man-o-war and other cards to shine. The red spell is a complete house some games, and I would even suggest losing a total of two counters (not daze, as much as I dislike the card) or even a counter and the weakest removal spell (probably arc trail in this deck) to maximize the density of cards your opponent will have to care about.
Yep. That all makes sense as well. I'm not feeling very argumentative tonight.
Gigantic aside
I've been running 17lands/24cards for the last 6 months as my base and haven't looked back. Of course I adjust if my deck shows signs of needing it (to 16/24, 18/23, or 17/23), however, 17/24 is as close as possible to playing 25 lands in a 60 card deck (16/24 in limited is also exactly the same as playing 24/36 in constructed, in case the ratio never caught anyone's attention). Mathematically, 17/40 is very close to playing 26 lands in standard, which is a little too high for my blood in a format where games are expected to hit turn 8-12 or even more (also known as every limited environment except for zendikar). In cube, the old "it is one less card in the way of drawing the card you want" mantra rings significantly less true, since, in cube, all of the cards you draw should be good cards to draw (barring desperate circumstances). Since 80% of the game is usually played out in the midgame, you should be caring about threat density a little more than threat quality, especially since the threat disparity of your cards shouldn't waver too much in this format.
In the end, I've tracked about the same number of mana droughts and floods, but in the games where mana is about stable, every time I draw that 41'st card I know that I have that one extra threat that keeps the game in my favor. Of course, if your'e 41'st card is whacksauce, don't bother. Only do it if you'd be cutting value.
I do this from time to time as well. Not all the time, but sometimes for sure if I just can't get down to 40. I may actively try to do this for my next few drafts and see how it works out.
*I don't like tormentor exarch. Not outside of scars. I really, really, really, dont think it's a good card. It does something... something, yes, but I think that's not a good enough argument. I shouldn't be able to look at two cards in my cube (this and flametongue kavu) and have my face stuck in frown mode. I know, the comparison is unfair (kavu IS god and all), but that's the point. You should be able to find more powerful, and more interesting-to-play cards.
Comparing the Exarch to the Kavu and then saying he's not good enough because he's not that good is not fair at all. I like almost the entire Exarch cycle (I don't care for the white one, though). I love Fire Imp and this dude is very similar. He gives me a body while removing a body. That's ok in my book. And he can possibly go to the dome by pumping an evasive attacker. I think he's quite awesome to be honest.
Alternates that don't get a lot of fanfare that I suggest are Battle-rattle shaman (serious business, no joke. The fact that his ability is free is what makes him playable and he does not disappoint, I guarantee this.) and Riddle of lightning (The card's value is nothing short of delicious. It's about as close to Prophetic Bolt as we'll ever get). Assuming, of course, that you aren't playing them. I swear by both of these cards.
I like both of these cards, but I don't like either of them more than anything I'm currently running. The Shaman is good, but fragile. He's easily dealt with and he can't block as a 4/2. He can give an evasive creature a bonus every turn or he can swing as a four power dude. I'd probably give him a shot if my cube were bigger, but I don't think he's better than any of my current creature base. I feel similar about Riddle of Lightning. It's a pretty decent card, but there's potential to completely whiff with it. It's decent, but it's not reliable enough to gain a slot in a cube the size of mine, IMO.
-Daze // I don't like this card in peasant, as way less of the threats are significant enough to justify the tempo loss
-Fireblast // With only 6 Mountains in a non-sligh style deck?
-Frost Breath // Your deck isn't tempo-based, this is pretty bad
-Island x2 // I think running 16 lands is fine and I want to splash for Faith's Fetters
+Blind With Anger // This card is nuts and often goes 2 for 1
+Izzet Signet // Why are you not running this?
+Tormentor Exarch // More 2 for 1 potential; not Flametongue Kavu but not every card gets to rival those in a powered cube
+Faith's Fetters // Awesomesauce
+Sejiri Refuge // Your mana seems fine, with 11 Blue sources, 10 Red sources and 3 White sources
I like this. I didn't run Blind With Anger because I just put it in the cube and I'm still skeptical on it. I guess that's a reason to run it, but I didn't for some reason. And Signet was one of the last cards I cut, mostly because I didn't feel like it was necessary. That's probably wrong, though. Making these changes definitely makes the deck feel more reliable.
------------------
More people should do this. Go to TappedOut and draft your cube (or my cube, or someone else's cube, whatever) and post your deck here for critique. It's super helpful in finding your flaws as a deck builder (and drafter) and seeing where you may be a little biased. It's good to hear what other people think and what they'd change. At least, I find it helpful and interesting.
Treason, your deck looks good to me. I might look at cutting the white shrine, but that's it. If It's important to your cube, I'd play manic vandal instead. Everything else is sensible.
Hey guys, I want to know your opinions on something.
Does it seem like aggro is harder to draft depending on the draft format?
After having done a few Winston/Winchester drafts with 2 or 3 people, it seems like aggro might be a bit weak for my cube. We did a 4 person regular draft (15 card packs) and it seemed like the quality of aggro increased by a fair bit. I was wondering if you all have found similar things.
@tReason: I'd drop the white Shrine and go with either the Manic Vandal (depending on how much artifact hate you think you need in your cube) or Artisan of Kozilek. You have enough ramp that getting him in play early shouldn't be a problem and he's quite powerful against a lot of decks.
Hey guys, I want to know your opinions on something.
Does it seem like aggro is harder to draft depending on the draft format?
After having done a few Winston/Winchester drafts with 2 or 3 people, it seems like aggro might be a bit weak for my cube. We did a 4 person regular draft (15 card packs) and it seemed like the quality of aggro increased by a fair bit. I was wondering if you all have found similar things.
Absolutely. You have to tune your cube to the formats that are played most often. It's much harder to make aggro work in a format like Winston or Winchester because it's so easy for your opponent to hate you out. Most of our Winston drafts end up being midrange vs midrange, but aggro is certainly viable in my C/U cube.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
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I was actually thinking that a lot of players were going to play it wrong. Like you said: It's good when the board position is favorable (or at least neutral), and it's not if you're behind.
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
Also, in blue, even in my cube you're more likely to be behind in the first 4-6 turns. The times where I'd be able to play this early to take advantage of its CMC seem insanely low.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
540+, Peasant
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Mana-math Article
Well, it shouldn't be the one and only reason you include a card, but it can certainly be a nice added bonus.
I don't think Standstill, despite it's low casting cost, is really meant for play in the first few turns of the game. I've definitely played it during those turns on an empty board, but that's usually the exception and not the norm. For the most part, it comes down at the same time something like Armageddon would. Once you get a little bit ahead, you play Standstill force them to break it in order to deal with your board position. Even if they answer your threat, you still get +3 cards in your hand which will most likely either be another threat or a counter for their answer. And if you draw three blanks, be glad that you don't have to spend the next three turns ripping blanks on your draw step.
It's a slightly complicated card to play and does require some skill in board evaluation and knowing when is the right time to run it out and when is the right time to hold it, but so far it's been nothing short of great for us. I really wish I had a second copy.
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I think that's the key here. Common / Uncommon lacks Armageddon and Mana Barb type effects, so I think at least testing out standstill to use it in that manner would be nifty.
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If you are playing it on turns 6+ then you are using it functionally the same way as you would Jaces erasure, and you aren't taking advantage of its cmc anymore. Since you absolutely positively cannot play the card if you are even the slightest bit behind on the board, which is more common for blue than for any other color, I just can't imagine it being better than a card that naturally draws 3 cards and puts you back in the game Right Now. I just cannot see it.
Armageddon isn't a fair comparison. Building a white based aggro deck is incredibly easy and casting it on curve is commonplace.
Also, there are plenty of cards that go "get ahead and win". Just in my blue section count Tidings, Jodah's avenger, Volition reins, Mulldrifter, Control magic, Fencer clique, sleep, forbid, benthicore and capsize. That's ten cards that almost never lose the game when you stabilize. Nucklavee, even if its only getting back psionic blast, could qualify as well. Blue is not short on win more cards.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
540+, Peasant
Take your hybrids out of your gold section
Mana-math Article
That's not really the case, though. I mean, if you can go Treetop Village, Island, Standstill, some land, attack for three, that's definitely an ideal way to play the card. But that's not when it's "best." That scenario will almost never happen.
I don't understand the connection between Standstill and Jace's Erasure. One is a fairly useless mill engine and the other stalls the game or draws you three cards. And you're absolutely taking advantage of it's cmc. That's like saying that you'd rather have Tidings on turn six than Ancestral Recall because it'll draw you more cards.
Most of the time, if played correctly, Standstill will naturally draw you three cards. Play my Air Elemental, bounce or destroy your blocker, drop Standstill, go. Now I'm in a win/win situation. You either play a blocker, which cracks my Standstill and draws me three cards. Or you destroy my flyer, which cracks my Standstill and draws me three cards. Not to mention that the spell doesn't have to resolve for Standstill to trigger, so I might very well draw a counter for your spell.
Sure it is. It's played the same way. It's certainly more powerful than Standstill, but they are definitely played similarly. I've seen UG midrange decks play dude, dude, dude, Standstill the same way a RW aggro deck would play dude, dude, dude, Armageddon. They are both examples of "Get ahead, play this card, probably win" types of cards.
Those aren't really get ahead and win types of cards, though, at least not in the same sense that Armageddon and Standstill are. All of those cards are cards that, if you play them when you're ahead, they'll put you that much further ahead, but don't really seal the deal. Sleep, Capsize, and maybe Forbid would probably qualify the same way that I feel that Armageddon and Standstill qualify. The rest are just solid cards, a lot of which, I don't even run. I also don't view them as "win more" since they don't really make you win any harder.
The bottom line is I think you should give Standstill a shot before you dismiss it. I had reservations before I put it in my cube too, but since it's inclusion it's been amazing. It's likely never leaving at this point. I love it.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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But in either case, I think we both got out everything we could possibly say.
Moving on...
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
540+, Peasant
Take your hybrids out of your gold section
Mana-math Article
I just did a faux draft with my cube on TappedOut. This is what I came up with. Thoughts?
1 River Boa
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Skirk Marauder
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Tormentor Exarch
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Deadwood Treefolk
1 Volcanic Dragon
1 Forked Bolt
1 Gruul Signet
1 Arc Trail
1 Arc Lightning
1 Staggershock
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Molten Rain
1 Pillage
1 Aftershock
1 Vivid Crag
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Gruul Turf
1 Strip Mine
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
6 Mountain
4 Forest
1 Briarhorn
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Harmonize
1 Urza's Factory
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Juggernaut
1 Mask of Memory
1 Breath of Darigaaz
1 Strip Mine
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Pelakka Wurm
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Fireslinger
What would you have done differently, if anything?
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Pretty solid. The only thing that I thought about was Wickerbough Elder over Stomphowler. Also, Strip Mine is in both deck and sideboard.
And Strip Mine is the board and the deck because I forgot to delete it when I was building in Notepad.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Sayin that stomphowler is always a 4/4 but wickerbough can come down a turn early is just a restatement of the cards' stats. Without going into mana curve considerations, or mentioning that stomp may be forced to shoot one of your cards (or the significantly more relevant "wickerbough elder can come down on turn 5 and for all intents and purposes have the same cmc as stomphowler when you use the ability"), a judgment was made. We are supposed to go more in depth here.
But yeah, again, wickerbough is a 4/4 just as much as stomphowler. Except for the rare, rare game where you run either one out late game without a target, the tree is functionally the same, but much more flexible.
Also, I would run briarhorn out over wall of blossoms. You want to blow up lands so you can kill them when they are off balance. You can't kill them with walls, and that extra dig down may or may not be as relevant as having a relevant set of bodies.
Briarhorn is very often a 2fer and is one of the most devastating combat tricks in cube. I also have never once thought anyone got their manas worth when they activated a skirk marauder. I wouldn't pay for a grey ogre that can shock once for 3 mana in cube (and shrink while its at it), and tacking on "i can be coral merfolk too!" isn't exactly enticing.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
540+, Peasant
Take your hybrids out of your gold section
Mana-math Article
I didn't feel there was a need to go more in depth. I didn't feel like I needed an extra Disenchant effect and neither losing a p/t to come down a turn earlier or paying an extra green for the same effect was worth it for me. I'd also rather have a 4/4 that didn't do anything than a 3/3 with a counter on it that can't blow anything up because there's no targets. The only thing that I have that I might have to hit with Indrik is the Signet.
Disagree, at least in my C/U cube. I often find myself with a lack of (worthy) targets for Disenchant effects. The artifacts aren't all that powerful and aren't played as prominently as they are in my rare cube. Blowing up a Signet on turn five with Wickerbough is hardly game breaking. Unless my opponent has an Icy or Warhammer (or similar), a card like Wickerbough often stays at a 3/3 until either I have a target that really need to destroy or until I really need a 4/4.
I chose the Wall because I didn't have a lot of early game. I think my late game guys will be enough to get there, but if I die before I can get those guys online, then it was all for nothing. The wall helps to hold off early beats from my opponent and cantrips. Briarhorn would just be more redundancy in the late game and I didn't feel that was as important as the early blocker.
This is possibly a change I could get behind with the deck, although I disagree 100% on Skirk Marauder. He's like a Ghitu Slinger that hits a turn later. He's in the cube because red wants creatures like that. I don't like him as much as Slinger or even Fire Imp, but he's solid and I've never been disappointed by him.
But, in this case and the specific deck, Briarhorn is probably the better card. The surprise blocker and potential 2-for-1 is more valuable than that random two damage.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Let's see
update on m12 cards
goblin fireslinger has been rockin it. It dealt almost all of the damage yesterday against the deck with ghostly prison, propaganda, plumeveil, icy manipulator, gideons lawkeeper and goldmeadow harrier.
Alabaster mage put a game away when teamed up with cloudgoat ranger.
Azure mage was solid.
blood ogre was underwhelming, but it still is going to be tested.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
540+, Peasant
Take your hybrids out of your gold section
Mana-math Article
I agree with your take on Azure Mage, and Jade Mage. They were really good mana sinks and were very "bomb-like."
Blood Ogre was ok in our draft, but he wasn't drafted by a red aggro deck so I'm sure he'd be fine if he was picked by one of those players instead. I just recently got Stormblood Berserker, Frost Breath, and Volcanic Dragon, so I'm eager to test them out when I draft again soon.
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
1 Man-o'-War
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Clone
1 Mulldrifter
1 Air Elemental
//Counter
1 Remand
1 Condescend
1 Daze
1 Miscalculation
1 Dismiss
1 Memory Lapse
1 Repeal
//Burn
1 Arc Trail
1 Incinerate
1 Electrolyze
1 Staggershock
1 Fireblast
1 Fireball
1 Preordain
1 Frost Breath
1 Deep Analysis
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Capsize
//Land
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Vivid Crag
1 Mirrodin's Core
1 Faerie Conclave
7 Island
6 Mountain
1 Impaler Shrike
1 Blind with Anger
1 Grab the Reins
1 Izzet Signet
1 Rift Bolt
1 Tormentor Exarch
1 Bottle Gnomes
1 Griffin Guide
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Nantuko Vigilante
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Sejiri Refuge
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Lone Missionary
1 Fume Spitter
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I'm on a friend's laptop now
So
In the meantime
I can finally type with efficiency
Ok
So your deck is, how you say, not aggressive at all. It seems as though all of your wins will come out of air elemental, or a fireball for 16. So, I would suggest trying to alleviate the burden on those two cards.
You also put repeal in the counter section. Just saying.
Memory lapse is almost always good (like remand). This is virtually a universal truth.
Thing is, your deck doesn't have the structure to best take advantage of it. As good as it is, and it is, The best memory lapses either let your guys keep pressure on, beat out combat tricks, or help make coming back impossible off of some opponent's late game filler play. Since your deck doesn't really apply much pressure, memory lapse is sort of "functional". It does help that you have dismiss in the deck, which makes a third turn remand/dismiss just Ballin' for you, but I felt as though I should say the optimization for the card is a tad lacking. I'd like to see if that can be altered somewhat.
So off the bat, Impaler shrike is another potential win condition, and tormenter exarch is a semi-decent dude that can make beats if the weather allows. In addition, upon first glance, I am a bit interested in seeing if sejiri refuge will support the ever-amazing faith's fetters. But I digress. There probably won't be enough time to go into it, I just suggest that you think about it. Your deck has probems with resolved things with toughness. I prefer rift bolt in your deck over arc trail for that reason; you have enough card advantage and selection to make the 2fer1 on arc trail less impressive. Sometimes, you just need to kill a dude (not to mention how sick it is suspended next to a staggershock. Zing!)
Frost breath is like a mutated Holy day in your deck, made worse due to the fact that you really can't take advantage by swinging back or using the free time to make your board state significant (not counting the 3 cards in your deck that make up your board presence). It's time for the sake of time, and I would think that the Exarch would perform a similar function while helping you more in the long term.*
I hesitate to remove a counterspell. Any one of them is potentially an argument waiting to happen if I were to call one out. But the thing is, since so many of them are soft counters, and since you don't have a significant number of way to deal with someone's second or third threat (losing fireball to a dude sucks for you, but it does what it has to), I would suggest dropping one of the soft counters for either impaler shrike or blind with anger. Shrike lets you have a clock to allow your man-o-war and other cards to shine. The red spell is a complete house some games, and I would even suggest losing a total of two counters (not daze, as much as I dislike the card) or even a counter and the weakest removal spell (probably arc trail in this deck) to maximize the density of cards your opponent will have to care about.
Gigantic aside
I've been running 17lands/24cards for the last 6 months as my base and haven't looked back. Of course I adjust if my deck shows signs of needing it (to 16/24, 18/23, or 17/23), however, 17/24 is as close as possible to playing 25 lands in a 60 card deck (16/24 in limited is also exactly the same as playing 24/36 in constructed, in case the ratio never caught anyone's attention). Mathematically, 17/40 is very close to playing 26 lands in standard, which is a little too high for my blood in a format where games are expected to hit turn 8-12 or even more (also known as every limited environment except for zendikar). In cube, the old "it is one less card in the way of drawing the card you want" mantra rings significantly less true, since, in cube, all of the cards you draw should be good cards to draw (barring desperate circumstances). Since 80% of the game is usually played out in the midgame, you should be caring about threat density a little more than threat quality, especially since the threat disparity of your cards shouldn't waver too much in this format.
In the end, I've tracked about the same number of mana droughts and floods, but in the games where mana is about stable, every time I draw that 41'st card I know that I have that one extra threat that keeps the game in my favor. Of course, if your'e 41'st card is whacksauce, don't bother. Only do it if you'd be cutting value.
...
All of that was basically there to say that I would toss in the Izzet signet. Condescend and Repeal will both love you for it. Either that, or swap an Island for Sejiri Refuge and slap Faith's Fetters on that bad boy. 3 sources that produce white and another color are plenty enough to justify running one of the best white removal spells of all time. I hear turning off crystal shard and loxadon warhammer are nice things to do too...
So yeah, I had a lot of thoughts. I hope some of that was interesting for you/anyone else reading.
*I don't like tormentor exarch. Not outside of scars. I really, really, really, dont think it's a good card. It does something... something, yes, but I think that's not a good enough argument. I shouldn't be able to look at two cards in my cube (this and flametongue kavu) and have my face stuck in frown mode. I know, the comparison is unfair (kavu IS god and all), but that's the point. You should be able to find more powerful, and more interesting-to-play cards.
Alternates that don't get a lot of fanfare that I suggest are Battle-rattle shaman (serious business, no joke. The fact that his ability is free is what makes him playable and he does not disappoint, I guarantee this.) and Riddle of lightning (The card's value is nothing short of delicious. It's about as close to Prophetic Bolt as we'll ever get). Assuming, of course, that you aren't playing them. I swear by both of these cards.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
540+, Peasant
Take your hybrids out of your gold section
Mana-math Article
Damn, that's a bummer. Good luck on the replacement!
I didn't mean for the deck to be aggressive. I meant for it to be very controlling. Counter counter counter removal removal removal. I think the biggest problem I see is the combination of tempo and control with cards like Man-o'-War and Memory Lapse not really fitting in.
This is all good advice. The Shrike and the Exarch should both make it in and Rift Bolt should have gotten the nod over Fireblast.
Agreed.
Yep. That all makes sense as well. I'm not feeling very argumentative tonight.
I do this from time to time as well. Not all the time, but sometimes for sure if I just can't get down to 40. I may actively try to do this for my next few drafts and see how it works out.
Well, you're only really gonna turn off the Warhammer if you can drop the Fetters on it before they can equip or have removal for the equipped dude.
Absolutely. I love thoughts on cube.
Comparing the Exarch to the Kavu and then saying he's not good enough because he's not that good is not fair at all. I like almost the entire Exarch cycle (I don't care for the white one, though). I love Fire Imp and this dude is very similar. He gives me a body while removing a body. That's ok in my book. And he can possibly go to the dome by pumping an evasive attacker. I think he's quite awesome to be honest.
I like both of these cards, but I don't like either of them more than anything I'm currently running. The Shaman is good, but fragile. He's easily dealt with and he can't block as a 4/2. He can give an evasive creature a bonus every turn or he can swing as a four power dude. I'd probably give him a shot if my cube were bigger, but I don't think he's better than any of my current creature base. I feel similar about Riddle of Lightning. It's a pretty decent card, but there's potential to completely whiff with it. It's decent, but it's not reliable enough to gain a slot in a cube the size of mine, IMO.
I like this. I didn't run Blind With Anger because I just put it in the cube and I'm still skeptical on it. I guess that's a reason to run it, but I didn't for some reason. And Signet was one of the last cards I cut, mostly because I didn't feel like it was necessary. That's probably wrong, though. Making these changes definitely makes the deck feel more reliable.
------------------
More people should do this. Go to TappedOut and draft your cube (or my cube, or someone else's cube, whatever) and post your deck here for critique. It's super helpful in finding your flaws as a deck builder (and drafter) and seeing where you may be a little biased. It's good to hear what other people think and what they'd change. At least, I find it helpful and interesting.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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1x Acidic Slime
1x Ancient Hydra
1x Brutalizer Exarch
1x Firemaw Kavu
1x Ghitu Slinger
1x Guardian of the Guildpact
1x Indrik Stomphowler
1x Krosan Tusker
1x Phantom Centaur
1x Tormentor Exarch
1x Volcanic Dragon
1x Wickerbough Elder
Stuff
1x Fireball
1x Pyroclasm
1x Rancor
1x Regrowth
1x Rolling Thunder
1x Shrine of Loyal Legions
1x Sprout Swarm
1x Boros Signet
1x Harrow
1x Joraga Treespeaker
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Selesnya Signet
1x Wall of Roots
Lands
1x Savage Lands
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Plains
5x Mountain
8x Forest
1x Artisan of Kozilek
1x Aven Riftwatcher
1x Black Vise
1x Blood Ogre
1x Boar Umbra
1x Diabolic Servitude
1x Frost Breath
1x Gideon's Lawkeeper
1x Kor Sanctifiers
1x Kor Skyfisher
1x Manic Vandal
1x Rakdos Signet
1x Safe Passage
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Stormblood Berserker
1x Vines of Vastwood
1x War Priest of Thune
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
Treason, your deck looks good to me. I might look at cutting the white shrine, but that's it. If It's important to your cube, I'd play manic vandal instead. Everything else is sensible.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
540+, Peasant
Take your hybrids out of your gold section
Mana-math Article
Does it seem like aggro is harder to draft depending on the draft format?
After having done a few Winston/Winchester drafts with 2 or 3 people, it seems like aggro might be a bit weak for my cube. We did a 4 person regular draft (15 card packs) and it seemed like the quality of aggro increased by a fair bit. I was wondering if you all have found similar things.
Absolutely. You have to tune your cube to the formats that are played most often. It's much harder to make aggro work in a format like Winston or Winchester because it's so easy for your opponent to hate you out. Most of our Winston drafts end up being midrange vs midrange, but aggro is certainly viable in my C/U cube.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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