So long as we can keep the spirit of the in depth card discussions, I suppose we can. I really want to get through these cards, though.
As for the thief, I found a good number of targets. Behemoths sledge, grafted wargear, porcelain legionnaire, lightning greaves or swiftfoot boots (sick life), crystal ball, palladium myr, thundering tanadon, icy manipulator, isochron scepter, bonesplitter, vulshock morningstar, darksteel sentinel, the red and white shrines, and crystal shard.
Yeah. I'm testing it. If it is too dead then I'll drop it.
Leelue, I think it'd be cool to discuss new cards in great detail but there's only so much you can say about uncommon or common cards. It'd be nifty to have side conversations about pauper stuff in general that goes on all the time as long as the primary discussion doesn't get lost in the mix.
As for the thief, I found a good number of targets. Behemoths sledge, grafted wargear, porcelain legionnaire, lightning greaves or swiftfoot boots (sick life), crystal ball, palladium myr, thundering tanadon, icy manipulator, isochron scepter, bonesplitter, vulshock morningstar, darksteel sentinel, the red and white shrines, and crystal shard.
It probably won't be able to steal the shrines most of the time if they left mana up, but the rest of these are all good targets in addition to Warhammer besides maybe the morningstar. There's also Skullclamp if that's in your cube as well as the odd signet or two that's always around in the worst case scenario.
I probably won't be running Master Thief, though. Blue can bounce to remove artifacts as necessary, and Thief seems kinda flimsy outside of stealing Wargear and 2-1ing the opponent immediately or equipping their skullclamp/greaves.
calibretto, I can't imagine why you'd cut Manic Vandal. There are so many pretty things to smash with it. Maybe it's just that my group runs a lot of greedy mana bases that are only fixed by signets or that Grafted Wargear/Skullclamp/Loxodon Warhammer show up a lot and ruin your day, but it always seems like there's a target for the Vandal.
Using my into the roil or riftwing cloudskate on a functional artifact doesn't solve many problems. I don't know how you can praise Manic vandal and then dismiss Master thief in the same breath. I know that one of them is temporary, but that wasn't the point that you had made. It was like you judged one on using it for yourself and the other on getting rid of the enemy resource when in reality, they both have similar functionality. Master thief does his job in a different but worse way, but he's a blue guy that deals with artifacts, and that is completely new.
Shrines don't have 3 mana up for safe keeping until well after you can drop the thief. If they do, then they aren't playing cards. Even if they have the mana, it isn't any different than playing an artifact removal spell since theyll blow it early (and you have a 2/2). The card needs to be seen as a marginal artifact removal spell in a color that traditionally can't deal with artifacts First, and as a card that steals you a useful permanent Second. That is its value, as I see it. I'll be testing soon enough.
why wouldn't the morningstar be a good steal? I'm not arguing your point, I just want you to back it up with a reason.
tReason, saying that there are not a lot of things to be said about commons and uncommons is pretty... I don't know what word to use... offensive? I don't mean any malice behind that but like I just demonstrated there Is a lot that can be said if you dig into the topic beyond what a regular Joe would see. I made the thread with the Sole intention of having that in mind. I'm the kind of person who does that, and expects to be met with a similar brand of reasoning skill by whomever I'm talking to. I want intelligent debates that are more than just "I don't think it's good enough". Like before, when we brought up Crimson Mage, it was said that most red creatures have haste so crimson mage wouldn't make the cut, but it was completely overlooked that not only do less than half of red creatures in the cube have haste, but that other colors would want the support as well.
Numbers. Comparisons. Real experience with the cards beyond a playtest or two. That is what I was looking for when I made this thread. I am not going to throw a tantrum every time somebody mentions how Reap and Sow is secretly a blowout against Blue/black or something, of course not. I'm not some ridiculous forum Nazi. I just care about the standards I am trying to set. Namely (and I'm sorry for repeating myself again) that this is a thread about having In Depth analysis concerning pauper cards. Since we have a lot if new cards to cover, I would prefer that the conversation temporarily stays centered around new cards. However, if an interesting argument can be found elsewhere in magic (like say... cutting loxadon warhammer because it wins 95% of games where it gets to live) then I'm ok with that. I'm merely trying to prevent this thread from becoming the usual "i think this card is good" "nice find!" small talk that dominates the general cube boards.
calibretto, I can't imagine why you'd cut Manic Vandal. There are so many pretty things to smash with it. Maybe it's just that my group runs a lot of greedy mana bases that are only fixed by signets or that Grafted Wargear/Skullclamp/Loxodon Warhammer show up a lot and ruin your day, but it always seems like there's a target for the Vandal.
My friend who helps me run our rare cube said the same thing. His thing is that if it's good enough for the rare cube at c/u level, then there's no reason not to run it in the peasant cube. But that's just not true. Too often I found myself holding Vandal because it didn't do anything. We already had Keldon Vandals, which is excellent, plus a lot of other artifact hate. And it wasn't even just that I didn't want to play it to blow up a Signet or something, I actually rarely had a target for it. Blowing up a bomb equipment or an Icy is great, but holding my 2/2 in my hand hoping my opponent plays a bomb artifact isn't how I want to play the game.
He'll likely go back in if we get more good artifacts, but honestly I found it hard to fill out my artifact section as it is and still feel like I'm running some pretty sub par stuff, but there just aren't suitable replacements.
Calibretto, I understand your point. I run manic vandal, but only because I still don't have a keldon vandals. I upped my artifact count to make sure the hate was useful, but cut Skullclamp and hammer because they were, quite honestly, winning every game. Now I don't need to flood my cube with cards like that.
Ok, to show that I'm actually open to relevant, useful, not m12 discussion, what ratio of blue cards to counterspells do you recommend. Right now I'm running 12/62 but I'm thinking of cutting one (negate or convolute) for a creature.
I'm going to be adding in Daze in the next update and don't feel like I've got too many counters. If I ever expanded a bit, I'd also throw in Memory Lapse. At 62 cards, I'd play all of the above, Daze, and Lapse for sure.
I run
Daze (which pops in and out at times)
Force Spike
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Memory lapse
Condescend
Negate
Remand
Essence scatter
Exclude
Forbid
I don't own Force of will and I don't like Arcane Denial.
Memory lapse is one of the best in my cube because, as I've mentioned many times, I have aggressive blue cards. Memory lapse makes catching up pretty impossible sometimes.
My apologies if that came off as offensive. I'll try to explain my reasoning a bit more in depth, as a lot of the way I think comes from the way my own cube is built which may differ from yours quite a bit. You made a good point about the general smalltalk and other comments which don't really push for more thinking about the topic at hand. I like what you're doing here, so I don't want to mess it up for you.
On the topic of why I like Manic Vandal but not Master Thief: It seems like there is a lot of removal in the cube, and much of it can off a 2/2. Since 2UU usually demands you to tap out for it until much later in the game, it just doesn't seem to fit into blue's goals. I'd much prefer to bounce an artifact and then counter it than run what is perhaps a mediocre sorcery-speed solution. (Mediocre in that it can be broken by creature-kill.) If Manic Vandal is even considered to be not-that-good due to lack of targets, Master Thief is even worse in that regards as the artifact removal qualities of him are broken once he is killed. If the Master Thief permanently stole the artifact, regardless of his condition, I would have a much different opinion of him. I'm just having trouble thinking about what kind of decks would use Master Thief, as he also requires a double blue color commitment.
The other issue of Master Thief is that he has trouble making a large impact on the board when he takes an equipment, as it isn't unequipped because you now own it. That means that with equipment that have larger equip costs, you won't be able to play the Thief and then immediately take the equipment off your opponent's creature. That's why I made the comment about the Morningstar. Now that I think about it though, you are right about the shrines. If anything, those are better targets to steal than equipment which is expensive to re-equip onto your own dudes. They either pop them on the spot or give them to you if they're tapped out, which makes Master Thief act as actual artifact removal.
On Crimson Mage: I only really thought about him in a RDW-type deck, which is probably the wrong way to think about it. I do like how it can buff creatures of other colors to have haste. My only issue with Crimson Mage is that the creatures you grant haste to will be of a drop one turn before, if that makes any sense, since you have to leave R open to give them haste. It's like how Lightning Greaves are much better than Swiftfoot Boots in terms of granting haste, because Lightning Greaves grants haste to a creature on the curve while Swiftfoot Boots requires you to have 1 open to equip. I may definitely try out the mage now, though.
I run 72 blue cards, and there are only 13 monoblue counterspell effects. I'm not a fan of Arcane Denial and I don't own Force of Will, but FoW will go in once I get my hands on it. I feel a little counterspell light at the moment, but the only counterspell I'd try to put in would be Complicate and maybe Dismiss. 4 mana counters are hard to swallow, even if they net card advantage.
Hinder was so often just cancel, I dropped it for some more interaction. I've been pushing for more of an archetype driven cube, so I have a lot of odd choices (like Signal pest or the Honden of Burning Rage cycle.) With that in mind, I need to make space for cards like Vedalken mastermind. That's why i was looking for space to make. In the end, I also took out Foresee.
Ok. so counterspells are probably covered.
Master theif is going to have a moment in my cube, but I can't say I don't think it'll come out. I'll let you know. Good argument, tReason. I don't care about who's right, I just want the best logic to win out.
As usual, anyone can revisit a topic if they have anything interesting to say.
In the meantime.
Stormblood berserkers and Goblin Fireslinger. I cut out a big hunk of my high end (hearthcage giant and flame wave) so I will soon be seeing them in. Both were absolute nuts yesterday, and obviously love each other. Thoughts?
I don't care for the limited counterspells like Negate and Remove Soul. I only run Exclude because it cantrips. There's not much worse than having my opponent play something I really need/want to counter and seeing Exclude in my hand. I think I would run Hinder over both of them. I actually like Hinder because it's (basically) a hard counter when you need a hard counter and a tempo counter when you need a tempo counter. The 1UU is, of course, harder than 1U, but it's worth it to have a hard counter ready, IMO.
Adding in Stormblood Berserkers seems great. He's definitely getting a spot in my peasant cube. I don't like really like player only damage, though, especially in the form of a pinger. I'd much rather have Fireslinger than the goblin counterpart. He acts as reach and removal, not just reach. Also, reach isn't near as effective when it's only one damage.
Stormblood Berserker has very impressive stats, being 1R for 3 power with evasion. In a cube that supports aggro, he's very easy to enable on T2 and if that's not possible he should definitely be out by T3. In my opinion, Red's creatures have always felt a little lacking* compared to White and Green's in terms of efficiency, and I'm glad WotC printed something liked the Berserker to even it out a bit.
I'm not so convinced about Goblin Fireslinger. He's 1-power unblockable, and reach is always great, but he can't carry equipment without losing his unblockability. It would've been cool if his ability scaled with his power, but that's probably a flavor stretch. A 1/1 in cube usually needs to be pretty impressive to be worth running, and only being able to players doesn't seem like it's good enough. I also can't imagine what I'd cut for it, but if you had room he might be worth trying out.
On the topic of red critters that aren't Crimson Mage, what do you guys feel about Blood Ogre? I think I've already posted this like twice in other parts of the forum, but Ballynock Cohort has always run really well for me and a red equivalent with the same efficiency that can't be gimped with instant-speed removal seems solid to me. In aggro, Bloodthirst should always be enabled by the third turn anyways. It seems this and Stormblood Berserker would contribute to making Red's creature base a lot more solid.*
*I've come to the conclusion that red's creatures just aren't that good compared to white and green due to the nature of red having burn. Besides the temporary "ball lightning" creatures, such as Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elemental, Red creatures have drawbacks compared to their W and G cousins or are less versatile and don't fit well in decks outside of RDW and BR/RW aggro. The only big counterexample is Flametongue Kavu, who's just all sorts of whacky good.
While I don't like situational counterspells, I think that with most decks relying on casting at least some number of creatures but not always some number of non-creature spells, anti-creature counters are really solid. Many creatures have spell-like abilities or 187 abilities that players depend on rather than non-creature spells, so I've rarely had anti-creature counters be dead. Exclude is also particularly good, like calibretto has said, as it is a cantrip on top of that. Hinder has been good the few times it's showed up since I added it to my cube, as it can either be a memory lapse or a better-than-cancel Cancel.
I really like Ballyknock Cohort, but I probably won't be playing Blood Ogre. Not because I don't like him, but because I can't find a cut for him that makes sense. I think my red aggro decks play well enough already and don't need another aggressive 3-drop. With that said, though, I do think he's a fine addition to c/u cubes that are larger than mine.
Oh, treason, red's creatures are terrible by comparison. this is fact. Red will never win against green or white head to head, and black's creatures often have some "grinding" advantages to them.
I think you guys may be right about goblin fireslinger. I may have just been too hyped by the prerelease. What do you think of tortured spirit then? I've always liked Inkfathom infiltrator, and this is a somewhat worse version.
As for counterspells, I guess the early game window for negate doesn't offset the all encompassing hinder. I've been upset with negate for some time, anyway.
Hinder slaps cenn's enlistment in the face... so I can't complain I guess.
Exclude always feels like a blowout, similar to soul manipulation, and I think its place is close to permanent.
Oh, treason, red's creatures are terrible by comparison. this is fact. Red will never win against green or white head to head, and black's creatures often have some "grinding" advantages to them.
I think you guys may be right about goblin fireslinger. I may have just been too hyped by the prerelease. What do you think of tortured spirit then? I've always liked Inkfathom infiltrator, and this is a somewhat worse version.
As for counterspells, I guess the early game window for negate doesn't offset the all encompassing hinder. I've been upset with negate for some time, anyway.
Hinder slaps cenn's enlistment in the face... so I can't complain I guess.
Exclude always feels like a blowout, similar to soul manipulation, and I think its place is close to permanent.
My cube is at 380 cards. There have been a few occasions where I've wanted to expand, but I've not done it because 1.) I like that the smaller size keeps the card pool stronger, 2.) there's a shortage of great artifacts at this rarity, and 3.) I'd have to buy more sleeves, which I don't really want to do.
I have no idea what Tortured Spirit is. Neither does Gatherer or the M12 spoiler.
I like Exclude quite a bit, despite not liking Remove Soul. The cantrip gets it there.
I have 490 cards in my cube, as I feel it lets me get a bit more freedom with what to put in but I also feel like it's a bit weak sometimes. I always draft with 6 or 8 people and we use up ~75% of the cube every time.
I have no idea what Tortured Spirit is. Neither does Gatherer or the M12 spoiler.
He meant Tormented Soul. At least this guy carries equipment like a champ, much like anyone else with evasion. The can't block is barely a drawback, as he'll be living sideways all the time due to being unblockable. If you need bloodthirst to be enabled all the time, he's your guy. Speaking of black cards which need to have bloodthirst enabled, what do you guys think about Vampire Outcasts?
Right now, I don't think Vampire Outcasts make the cut. They are very close though, and depending on the nature of black in one's cube, could make it in. I personally don't like it because:
1) it is conditionally above the curve; in other words, it must be played with bloodthirst to be be good.
2) it doesn't have evasion; and many of the black 4-drops have some sort of evasion, which makes a cut at this cost difficult.
I'm open to opinions though.
I don't like Tormented Soul. Too conditional (having equipment, bloodthirst, etc.).
Also, can someone lay out their logic for Force of Will? I think that without the need to fight combo, like in Legacy, the card disadvantage might be too much. I haven't ever played with it in a Limited environment though. I can see playing it for nostalgia or for completeness (it's a classic "good card"), but is it a must-include?
Right now, I have the outcasts in. Pingers wake them up, and black has a good amount of beaters to smack the opponent up a bit to make them good. I'd go and say black has an easier time triggering combat based bloodthirst than red any day. Between evasion and strong-with-a-drawback creatures, an aggressor should easily get this guy down.
Also, a 4 toughness black creature is no joke. 4 power on a lifelinker is absolutely impossible to keep up with as well. Just to put things in perspective, the only creatures that can outrace it one on one in my cube are pelakka wurm (ONLY because it gains 7), mistmeadow witch (she cheats), Benthicore/jade mage (the blockers),and artisan of kozilek. That's just... delicious.
anyways
Tormented soul
thanks for correcting me
You say conditional, I say turn 1. If it isn't answered, it will very likely decide a game. Not all creatures can say that they actually need kill spells pointed at them. Five damage? Eight damage? They have to kill it. Equipment? Elephant guide? Nothing wrong with that if you ask me. I'll be back with my reports on him when I get more testing in.
I have no input on force. Calibretto should be more useful.
Also, first day with Master thief was promising. I'll keep testing.
I have 490 cards in my cube, as I feel it lets me get a bit more freedom with what to put in but I also feel like it's a bit weak sometimes. I always draft with 6 or 8 people and we use up ~75% of the cube every time.
That's why my rare cube is 555 cards. I like a ton of variety in my drafts and having a midsize cube gives me freedom in my card choices. I keep the peasant cube smaller though, mostly because the card pool isn't as deep at that rarity, especially the artifacts.
He meant Tormented Soul. At least this guy carries equipment like a champ, much like anyone else with evasion. The can't block is barely a drawback, as he'll be living sideways all the time due to being unblockable. If you need bloodthirst to be enabled all the time, he's your guy. Speaking of black cards which need to have bloodthirst enabled, what do you guys think about Vampire Outcasts?
I could maybe see running Tormented Soul at a certain size, but I don't have a spot for him in my tighter list. I'm generally not a fan of 1/1's unless they do something more than just turn sideways.
I really like Vampire Outcasts, but I couldn't find a cut for it in my list. If my cube were bigger, they'd be in for sure.
Right now, I don't think Vampire Outcasts make the cut. They are very close though, and depending on the nature of black in one's cube, could make it in. I personally don't like it because:
1) it is conditionally above the curve; in other words, it must be played with bloodthirst to be be good.
2) it doesn't have evasion; and many of the black 4-drops have some sort of evasion, which makes a cut at this cost difficult.
I'm open to opinions though.
Outcasts does require bloodthirst to enable it, but I don't think bloodthirst should be that hard to achieve, especially on turn four. I think it'd be a rare occasion that you were stuck holding a four mana 2/2 in your hand with no way to enable the bloodthirst. A cut is certainly difficult at that cost, though, which is why I don't think it'll make it into my cube.
Also, can someone lay out their logic for Force of Will? I think that without the need to fight combo, like in Legacy, the card disadvantage might be too much. I haven't ever played with it in a Limited environment though. I can see playing it for nostalgia or for completeness (it's a classic "good card"), but is it a must-include?
Is it a must-include? No, especially at the price it demands. It certainly is a classic "good card", though, and is good enough to make the cut. I run it and like it because it's one of a kind. No other (worthy) hard counter allows you to tap out and still have counter magic up. The card disadvantage is usually worth it based on what you're countering with FoW. But the card disadvantage is also a lot harder on the deck/hand in a limited singleton environment than it is in Legacy where you're probably pitching a second or third Brainstorm that's not really necessary. I like FoW a lot, but if you can't afford it or don't have one handy, don't sweat the fact that it's not in your cube. Its absence doesn't really hurt your cube at all.
Tormented soul
thanks for correcting me
You say conditional, I say turn 1. If it isn't answered, it will very likely decide a game. Not all creatures can say that they actually need kill spells pointed at them. Five damage? Eight damage? They have to kill it. Equipment? Elephant guide? Nothing wrong with that if you ask me. I'll be back with my reports on him when I get more testing in.
The key words in that sentence are "if it isn't answered." Now, look through your cube and tell me how many cards can answer a 1/1, even a 1/1 that's unblockable. He's scared to death of red decks. You absolutely have to have something else to go with him to make him cubeable. I don't think he has to die at all. It takes a long time for him to get in for twenty damage without an aura or equipment. You say Elephant Guide and I say Lightning Bolt in response. If you don't say Elephant Guide, then I'll just take one and save my Bolt for your more threatening creature. I like the flavor of the card, but I really needed him to be a 2/1 to come close to being worthy.
If he was a 2/1 then he'd be the best black creature in the cube by far. Perhaps I'm exaggerating, but a 2 power evasive creature for 1 mana is virtually unheard of in any color. Let's be real.
I'm not expecting him to deal 20. I'm not expecting vampire lacerator to deal 20 either. I want my one drop to deal some damage, and this guy guarantees it. I am reminded of the experiment that was done back in kamigawa block when it was shown that suntail hawk averages more damage than isamaru, hound of konda. The environment was different, to be fair, but the argument is similar.
The differences in the two creatures are worth noting; Tormented soul won't be stopped by a flier, and vampire lacerator ends up clocking you for 3-5 damage.
I'm certainly not saying to get rid of our 1 mana 2/2's, I'm just making a case for the validity of a 1 power, 1 mana unblockable
Having 1 toughness as opposed to two let's him die to... cunning sparkmage... cycled slice and dice... and... Not a whole lot else (Maybe the worlds worst judge unworthy). He's not really more afraid of burn than your average creature.
Furthermore, it is not often that an elephant/griffin guide gets 2 for 1'd. Players tap out, especially around the early turns.
Also
My argument for saying the creature is good with enchantments requires me to have one of the very few auras in my cube. Thus, it isn't very strong, and I was only using it as a small point. A counterargument that requires the opponent to have mana up and a kill spell at the ready for my corner case to be invalidated is then, by its very nature, another weak point. The more rungs down the ladder we go, the worse the points become. Imagine how silly I'd sound if I went and said that "i would cast apostles blessing in response".
Also, I could have just replaced elephant guide with incremental growth if I was expecting an appeal to the power of burn spells. I merely pulled the first permanent, power enhancing green spell out of thin air.
In any case, I'll take it upon myself to test him, like I'm testing master thief. I'll have my reports soon.
If he was a 2/1 then he'd be the best black creature in the cube by far. Perhaps I'm exaggerating, but a 2 power evasive creature for 1 mana is virtually unheard of in any color. Let's be real.
You'll get no arguments on that matter from me. With two power, he'd be ridiculous.
I'm not expecting him to deal 20. I'm not expecting vampire lacerator to deal 20 either. I want my one drop to deal some damage, and this guy guarantees it. I am reminded of the experiment that was done back in kamigawa block when it was shown that suntail hawk averages more damage than isamaru, hound of konda. The environment was different, to be fair, but the argument is similar.
But yet, Suntail Hawk sees zero play in cubes and Isamaru is a 360 staple. Suntail Hawk might be able to get in for more damage over the course of the game, but Isamaru will get his damage in quicker, even if it's less than the hawk. That's what aggro wants. It wants to get in as much damage as quick as possible. Not a reliable source of pings throughout a long game.
The differences in the two creatures are worth noting; Tormented soul won't be stopped by a flier, and vampire lacerator ends up clocking you for 3-5 damage.
I'm certainly not saying to get rid of our 1 mana 2/2's, I'm just making a case for the validity of a 1 power, 1 mana unblockable
I don't think he's invalid. In fact, I'm planning on testing out Soltari Foot Soldier in my next cube update. I just don't think black is a color that wants this guy until a cube reaches a certain size. I'd certainly run the two power guys and Fume Spitter all before I'd run him. If I felt I needed another one drop, Pulse Tracker and the new guy would both be up for evaluation.
Having 1 toughness as opposed to two let's him die to... cunning sparkmage... cycled slice and dice... and... Not a whole lot else (Maybe the worlds worst judge unworthy). He's not really more afraid of burn than your average creature.
That's a fair argument and you're right. There's not much burn that'll kill a 1/1, but won't kill a 2/2.
Furthermore, it is not often that an elephant/griffin guide gets 2 for 1'd. Players tap out, especially around the early turns.
No, I agree. I run the Guides, Bear Umbra and Armadillo Cloak all in my C/U cube. Those things hit creatures fairly often and make them very scary, even if only for a minute. The point I was making is I don't want to run a creature that requires an aura to become intimidating.
Also
My argument for saying the creature is good with enchantments requires me to have one of the very few auras in my cube. Thus, it isn't very strong, and I was only using it as a small point. A counterargument that requires the opponent to have mana up and a kill spell at the ready for my corner case to be invalidated is then, by its very nature, another weak point. The more rungs down the ladder we go, the worse the points become. Imagine how silly I'd sound if I went and said that "i would cast apostles blessing in response".
This is true and I agree. Those points aren't really relevant to the validity of the creature in question.
Also, I could have just replaced elephant guide with incremental growth if I was expecting an appeal to the power of burn spells. I merely pulled the first permanent, power enhancing green spell out of thin air.
Back to the last point, power enhancing spells should have no bearing on if a creature is worthy or not. Cards need to be good enough on their own and I don't think Tormented Soul quite makes the cut.
In any case, I'll take it upon myself to test him, like I'm testing master thief. I'll have my reports soon.
As you should. I definitely look forward to hearing how he plays. I know that a couple of guys have had success with Pulse Tracker, so I'm curious (but skeptical) about the new 1-drop as well.
I really like this little foursome we have going on here. No homo.
Hm.
By the way, I tried fume spitter before I got my Blind Creeper and Fledgling Djinn (aka before aggro was better) and he wasn't great. Now that my black looks like a bigger version of my red, perhaps Fume spitter will act more like mogg fanatic.
That was, truthfully, a very productive conversation we all had there. Ok, well, I suppose I can switch to a non-new topic again.
What are your thoughts on un cards? I've been running them and have had a great experience. I think I have frazzled editor, carnivorous death parrot, and booster tutor. Booster tutor is perhaps the most fun, and most powerful, card in black.
By the way, I tried fume spitter before I got my Blind Creeper and Fledgling Djinn (aka before aggro was better) and he wasn't great. Now that my black looks like a bigger version of my red, perhaps Fume spitter will act more like mogg fanatic.
Fume Spitter is awesome. Mogg Fanatic is better, for sure, but Fume Spitter has been nothing if not good for us (in both of my cubes). He's a work horse.
What are your thoughts on un cards? I've been running them and have had a great experience. I think I have frazzled editor, carnivorous death parrot, and booster tutor. Booster tutor is perhaps the most fun, and most powerful, card in black.
I don't like Un cards because they don't feel like real Magic cards to me. I don't want my cards to force me to say or do something silly. I also want my cards to look like real Magic cards not have random red text in the rules box. Un cards are fine if that's what your group likes, but as a general rule, my crew doesn't want to play with them, so we opt not to run them. If I did run them, I'd stick to the cards that actually do feel a bit more like real Magic cards.
My friends are probably going to ignore the bird's stipulation, which seems like a cop out. Booster tutor is never going to leave my cube, I think, and frazzled editor is extremely powerful, if almost too offbeat.
Ignoring the bird's stipulation makes it feel even less real to me. That's like ignoring that Jungle Lion can't block or that Juggernaut has to attack each turn.
Lol those arent quite the same but yeah, the card is too unrealistic. Togglodyte may be believable enough, though.
By the way, master thief has been really annoying so far, and the spirit is promising. Fireslinger dealt 5 damage and 7 damage in its maiden match. Vampire outcasts was easy to turn on, but was shut down by mistmeadow skulk. Just keeping you updated.
Ok. next discussion.
What is the opinion on spirit mantle?
As for the thief, I found a good number of targets. Behemoths sledge, grafted wargear, porcelain legionnaire, lightning greaves or swiftfoot boots (sick life), crystal ball, palladium myr, thundering tanadon, icy manipulator, isochron scepter, bonesplitter, vulshock morningstar, darksteel sentinel, the red and white shrines, and crystal shard.
Yeah. I'm testing it. If it is too dead then I'll drop it.
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It probably won't be able to steal the shrines most of the time if they left mana up, but the rest of these are all good targets in addition to Warhammer besides maybe the morningstar. There's also Skullclamp if that's in your cube as well as the odd signet or two that's always around in the worst case scenario.
I probably won't be running Master Thief, though. Blue can bounce to remove artifacts as necessary, and Thief seems kinda flimsy outside of stealing Wargear and 2-1ing the opponent immediately or equipping their skullclamp/greaves.
calibretto, I can't imagine why you'd cut Manic Vandal. There are so many pretty things to smash with it. Maybe it's just that my group runs a lot of greedy mana bases that are only fixed by signets or that Grafted Wargear/Skullclamp/Loxodon Warhammer show up a lot and ruin your day, but it always seems like there's a target for the Vandal.
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
Shrines don't have 3 mana up for safe keeping until well after you can drop the thief. If they do, then they aren't playing cards. Even if they have the mana, it isn't any different than playing an artifact removal spell since theyll blow it early (and you have a 2/2). The card needs to be seen as a marginal artifact removal spell in a color that traditionally can't deal with artifacts First, and as a card that steals you a useful permanent Second. That is its value, as I see it. I'll be testing soon enough.
why wouldn't the morningstar be a good steal? I'm not arguing your point, I just want you to back it up with a reason.
tReason, saying that there are not a lot of things to be said about commons and uncommons is pretty... I don't know what word to use... offensive? I don't mean any malice behind that but like I just demonstrated there Is a lot that can be said if you dig into the topic beyond what a regular Joe would see. I made the thread with the Sole intention of having that in mind. I'm the kind of person who does that, and expects to be met with a similar brand of reasoning skill by whomever I'm talking to. I want intelligent debates that are more than just "I don't think it's good enough". Like before, when we brought up Crimson Mage, it was said that most red creatures have haste so crimson mage wouldn't make the cut, but it was completely overlooked that not only do less than half of red creatures in the cube have haste, but that other colors would want the support as well.
Numbers. Comparisons. Real experience with the cards beyond a playtest or two. That is what I was looking for when I made this thread. I am not going to throw a tantrum every time somebody mentions how Reap and Sow is secretly a blowout against Blue/black or something, of course not. I'm not some ridiculous forum Nazi. I just care about the standards I am trying to set. Namely (and I'm sorry for repeating myself again) that this is a thread about having In Depth analysis concerning pauper cards. Since we have a lot if new cards to cover, I would prefer that the conversation temporarily stays centered around new cards. However, if an interesting argument can be found elsewhere in magic (like say... cutting loxadon warhammer because it wins 95% of games where it gets to live) then I'm ok with that. I'm merely trying to prevent this thread from becoming the usual "i think this card is good" "nice find!" small talk that dominates the general cube boards.
Thanks for reading.
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My friend who helps me run our rare cube said the same thing. His thing is that if it's good enough for the rare cube at c/u level, then there's no reason not to run it in the peasant cube. But that's just not true. Too often I found myself holding Vandal because it didn't do anything. We already had Keldon Vandals, which is excellent, plus a lot of other artifact hate. And it wasn't even just that I didn't want to play it to blow up a Signet or something, I actually rarely had a target for it. Blowing up a bomb equipment or an Icy is great, but holding my 2/2 in my hand hoping my opponent plays a bomb artifact isn't how I want to play the game.
He'll likely go back in if we get more good artifacts, but honestly I found it hard to fill out my artifact section as it is and still feel like I'm running some pretty sub par stuff, but there just aren't suitable replacements.
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Ok, to show that I'm actually open to relevant, useful, not m12 discussion, what ratio of blue cards to counterspells do you recommend. Right now I'm running 12/62 but I'm thinking of cutting one (negate or convolute) for a creature.
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My counters are:
I'm going to be adding in Daze in the next update and don't feel like I've got too many counters. If I ever expanded a bit, I'd also throw in Memory Lapse. At 62 cards, I'd play all of the above, Daze, and Lapse for sure.
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Daze (which pops in and out at times)
Force Spike
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Memory lapse
Condescend
Negate
Remand
Essence scatter
Exclude
Forbid
I don't own Force of will and I don't like Arcane Denial.
Memory lapse is one of the best in my cube because, as I've mentioned many times, I have aggressive blue cards. Memory lapse makes catching up pretty impossible sometimes.
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Take your hybrids out of your gold section
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My apologies if that came off as offensive. I'll try to explain my reasoning a bit more in depth, as a lot of the way I think comes from the way my own cube is built which may differ from yours quite a bit. You made a good point about the general smalltalk and other comments which don't really push for more thinking about the topic at hand. I like what you're doing here, so I don't want to mess it up for you.
On the topic of why I like Manic Vandal but not Master Thief: It seems like there is a lot of removal in the cube, and much of it can off a 2/2. Since 2UU usually demands you to tap out for it until much later in the game, it just doesn't seem to fit into blue's goals. I'd much prefer to bounce an artifact and then counter it than run what is perhaps a mediocre sorcery-speed solution. (Mediocre in that it can be broken by creature-kill.) If Manic Vandal is even considered to be not-that-good due to lack of targets, Master Thief is even worse in that regards as the artifact removal qualities of him are broken once he is killed. If the Master Thief permanently stole the artifact, regardless of his condition, I would have a much different opinion of him. I'm just having trouble thinking about what kind of decks would use Master Thief, as he also requires a double blue color commitment.
The other issue of Master Thief is that he has trouble making a large impact on the board when he takes an equipment, as it isn't unequipped because you now own it. That means that with equipment that have larger equip costs, you won't be able to play the Thief and then immediately take the equipment off your opponent's creature. That's why I made the comment about the Morningstar. Now that I think about it though, you are right about the shrines. If anything, those are better targets to steal than equipment which is expensive to re-equip onto your own dudes. They either pop them on the spot or give them to you if they're tapped out, which makes Master Thief act as actual artifact removal.
On Crimson Mage: I only really thought about him in a RDW-type deck, which is probably the wrong way to think about it. I do like how it can buff creatures of other colors to have haste. My only issue with Crimson Mage is that the creatures you grant haste to will be of a drop one turn before, if that makes any sense, since you have to leave R open to give them haste. It's like how Lightning Greaves are much better than Swiftfoot Boots in terms of granting haste, because Lightning Greaves grants haste to a creature on the curve while Swiftfoot Boots requires you to have 1 open to equip. I may definitely try out the mage now, though.
On the topic of counterspells:
I run 72 blue cards, and there are only 13 monoblue counterspell effects. I'm not a fan of Arcane Denial and I don't own Force of Will, but FoW will go in once I get my hands on it. I feel a little counterspell light at the moment, but the only counterspell I'd try to put in would be Complicate and maybe Dismiss. 4 mana counters are hard to swallow, even if they net card advantage.
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
Ok. so counterspells are probably covered.
Master theif is going to have a moment in my cube, but I can't say I don't think it'll come out. I'll let you know. Good argument, tReason. I don't care about who's right, I just want the best logic to win out.
As usual, anyone can revisit a topic if they have anything interesting to say.
In the meantime.
Stormblood berserkers and Goblin Fireslinger. I cut out a big hunk of my high end (hearthcage giant and flame wave) so I will soon be seeing them in. Both were absolute nuts yesterday, and obviously love each other. Thoughts?
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Adding in Stormblood Berserkers seems great. He's definitely getting a spot in my peasant cube. I don't like really like player only damage, though, especially in the form of a pinger. I'd much rather have Fireslinger than the goblin counterpart. He acts as reach and removal, not just reach. Also, reach isn't near as effective when it's only one damage.
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I'm not so convinced about Goblin Fireslinger. He's 1-power unblockable, and reach is always great, but he can't carry equipment without losing his unblockability. It would've been cool if his ability scaled with his power, but that's probably a flavor stretch. A 1/1 in cube usually needs to be pretty impressive to be worth running, and only being able to players doesn't seem like it's good enough. I also can't imagine what I'd cut for it, but if you had room he might be worth trying out.
On the topic of red critters that aren't Crimson Mage, what do you guys feel about Blood Ogre? I think I've already posted this like twice in other parts of the forum, but Ballynock Cohort has always run really well for me and a red equivalent with the same efficiency that can't be gimped with instant-speed removal seems solid to me. In aggro, Bloodthirst should always be enabled by the third turn anyways. It seems this and Stormblood Berserker would contribute to making Red's creature base a lot more solid.*
*I've come to the conclusion that red's creatures just aren't that good compared to white and green due to the nature of red having burn. Besides the temporary "ball lightning" creatures, such as Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elemental, Red creatures have drawbacks compared to their W and G cousins or are less versatile and don't fit well in decks outside of RDW and BR/RW aggro. The only big counterexample is Flametongue Kavu, who's just all sorts of whacky good.
While I don't like situational counterspells, I think that with most decks relying on casting at least some number of creatures but not always some number of non-creature spells, anti-creature counters are really solid. Many creatures have spell-like abilities or 187 abilities that players depend on rather than non-creature spells, so I've rarely had anti-creature counters be dead. Exclude is also particularly good, like calibretto has said, as it is a cantrip on top of that. Hinder has been good the few times it's showed up since I added it to my cube, as it can either be a memory lapse or a better-than-cancel Cancel.
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Oh, treason, red's creatures are terrible by comparison. this is fact. Red will never win against green or white head to head, and black's creatures often have some "grinding" advantages to them.
I think you guys may be right about goblin fireslinger. I may have just been too hyped by the prerelease. What do you think of tortured spirit then? I've always liked Inkfathom infiltrator, and this is a somewhat worse version.
As for counterspells, I guess the early game window for negate doesn't offset the all encompassing hinder. I've been upset with negate for some time, anyway.
Hinder slaps cenn's enlistment in the face... so I can't complain I guess.
Exclude always feels like a blowout, similar to soul manipulation, and I think its place is close to permanent.
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Take your hybrids out of your gold section
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My cube is at 380 cards. There have been a few occasions where I've wanted to expand, but I've not done it because 1.) I like that the smaller size keeps the card pool stronger, 2.) there's a shortage of great artifacts at this rarity, and 3.) I'd have to buy more sleeves, which I don't really want to do.
I have no idea what Tortured Spirit is. Neither does Gatherer or the M12 spoiler.
I like Exclude quite a bit, despite not liking Remove Soul. The cantrip gets it there.
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He meant Tormented Soul. At least this guy carries equipment like a champ, much like anyone else with evasion. The can't block is barely a drawback, as he'll be living sideways all the time due to being unblockable. If you need bloodthirst to be enabled all the time, he's your guy. Speaking of black cards which need to have bloodthirst enabled, what do you guys think about Vampire Outcasts?
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
1) it is conditionally above the curve; in other words, it must be played with bloodthirst to be be good.
2) it doesn't have evasion; and many of the black 4-drops have some sort of evasion, which makes a cut at this cost difficult.
I'm open to opinions though.
I don't like Tormented Soul. Too conditional (having equipment, bloodthirst, etc.).
Also, can someone lay out their logic for Force of Will? I think that without the need to fight combo, like in Legacy, the card disadvantage might be too much. I haven't ever played with it in a Limited environment though. I can see playing it for nostalgia or for completeness (it's a classic "good card"), but is it a must-include?
Also, a 4 toughness black creature is no joke. 4 power on a lifelinker is absolutely impossible to keep up with as well. Just to put things in perspective, the only creatures that can outrace it one on one in my cube are pelakka wurm (ONLY because it gains 7), mistmeadow witch (she cheats), Benthicore/jade mage (the blockers),and artisan of kozilek. That's just... delicious.
anyways
Tormented soul
thanks for correcting me
You say conditional, I say turn 1. If it isn't answered, it will very likely decide a game. Not all creatures can say that they actually need kill spells pointed at them. Five damage? Eight damage? They have to kill it. Equipment? Elephant guide? Nothing wrong with that if you ask me. I'll be back with my reports on him when I get more testing in.
I have no input on force. Calibretto should be more useful.
Also, first day with Master thief was promising. I'll keep testing.
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That's why my rare cube is 555 cards. I like a ton of variety in my drafts and having a midsize cube gives me freedom in my card choices. I keep the peasant cube smaller though, mostly because the card pool isn't as deep at that rarity, especially the artifacts.
I could maybe see running Tormented Soul at a certain size, but I don't have a spot for him in my tighter list. I'm generally not a fan of 1/1's unless they do something more than just turn sideways.
I really like Vampire Outcasts, but I couldn't find a cut for it in my list. If my cube were bigger, they'd be in for sure.
EDIT: Missed these last two posts somehow.
Outcasts does require bloodthirst to enable it, but I don't think bloodthirst should be that hard to achieve, especially on turn four. I think it'd be a rare occasion that you were stuck holding a four mana 2/2 in your hand with no way to enable the bloodthirst. A cut is certainly difficult at that cost, though, which is why I don't think it'll make it into my cube.
Agreed.
Is it a must-include? No, especially at the price it demands. It certainly is a classic "good card", though, and is good enough to make the cut. I run it and like it because it's one of a kind. No other (worthy) hard counter allows you to tap out and still have counter magic up. The card disadvantage is usually worth it based on what you're countering with FoW. But the card disadvantage is also a lot harder on the deck/hand in a limited singleton environment than it is in Legacy where you're probably pitching a second or third Brainstorm that's not really necessary. I like FoW a lot, but if you can't afford it or don't have one handy, don't sweat the fact that it's not in your cube. Its absence doesn't really hurt your cube at all.
The key words in that sentence are "if it isn't answered." Now, look through your cube and tell me how many cards can answer a 1/1, even a 1/1 that's unblockable. He's scared to death of red decks. You absolutely have to have something else to go with him to make him cubeable. I don't think he has to die at all. It takes a long time for him to get in for twenty damage without an aura or equipment. You say Elephant Guide and I say Lightning Bolt in response. If you don't say Elephant Guide, then I'll just take one and save my Bolt for your more threatening creature. I like the flavor of the card, but I really needed him to be a 2/1 to come close to being worthy.
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I'm not expecting him to deal 20. I'm not expecting vampire lacerator to deal 20 either. I want my one drop to deal some damage, and this guy guarantees it. I am reminded of the experiment that was done back in kamigawa block when it was shown that suntail hawk averages more damage than isamaru, hound of konda. The environment was different, to be fair, but the argument is similar.
The differences in the two creatures are worth noting; Tormented soul won't be stopped by a flier, and vampire lacerator ends up clocking you for 3-5 damage.
I'm certainly not saying to get rid of our 1 mana 2/2's, I'm just making a case for the validity of a 1 power, 1 mana unblockable
Having 1 toughness as opposed to two let's him die to... cunning sparkmage... cycled slice and dice... and... Not a whole lot else (Maybe the worlds worst judge unworthy). He's not really more afraid of burn than your average creature.
Furthermore, it is not often that an elephant/griffin guide gets 2 for 1'd. Players tap out, especially around the early turns.
Also
My argument for saying the creature is good with enchantments requires me to have one of the very few auras in my cube. Thus, it isn't very strong, and I was only using it as a small point. A counterargument that requires the opponent to have mana up and a kill spell at the ready for my corner case to be invalidated is then, by its very nature, another weak point. The more rungs down the ladder we go, the worse the points become. Imagine how silly I'd sound if I went and said that "i would cast apostles blessing in response".
Also, I could have just replaced elephant guide with incremental growth if I was expecting an appeal to the power of burn spells. I merely pulled the first permanent, power enhancing green spell out of thin air.
In any case, I'll take it upon myself to test him, like I'm testing master thief. I'll have my reports soon.
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You'll get no arguments on that matter from me. With two power, he'd be ridiculous.
But yet, Suntail Hawk sees zero play in cubes and Isamaru is a 360 staple. Suntail Hawk might be able to get in for more damage over the course of the game, but Isamaru will get his damage in quicker, even if it's less than the hawk. That's what aggro wants. It wants to get in as much damage as quick as possible. Not a reliable source of pings throughout a long game.
I don't think he's invalid. In fact, I'm planning on testing out Soltari Foot Soldier in my next cube update. I just don't think black is a color that wants this guy until a cube reaches a certain size. I'd certainly run the two power guys and Fume Spitter all before I'd run him. If I felt I needed another one drop, Pulse Tracker and the new guy would both be up for evaluation.
That's a fair argument and you're right. There's not much burn that'll kill a 1/1, but won't kill a 2/2.
No, I agree. I run the Guides, Bear Umbra and Armadillo Cloak all in my C/U cube. Those things hit creatures fairly often and make them very scary, even if only for a minute. The point I was making is I don't want to run a creature that requires an aura to become intimidating.
This is true and I agree. Those points aren't really relevant to the validity of the creature in question.
Back to the last point, power enhancing spells should have no bearing on if a creature is worthy or not. Cards need to be good enough on their own and I don't think Tormented Soul quite makes the cut.
As you should. I definitely look forward to hearing how he plays. I know that a couple of guys have had success with Pulse Tracker, so I'm curious (but skeptical) about the new 1-drop as well.
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Hm.
By the way, I tried fume spitter before I got my Blind Creeper and Fledgling Djinn (aka before aggro was better) and he wasn't great. Now that my black looks like a bigger version of my red, perhaps Fume spitter will act more like mogg fanatic.
That was, truthfully, a very productive conversation we all had there. Ok, well, I suppose I can switch to a non-new topic again.
What are your thoughts on un cards? I've been running them and have had a great experience. I think I have frazzled editor, carnivorous death parrot, and booster tutor. Booster tutor is perhaps the most fun, and most powerful, card in black.
Cheatyface is a little too unrealistic for me.
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Agreed. Go team Peasant Cube!!
Fume Spitter is awesome. Mogg Fanatic is better, for sure, but Fume Spitter has been nothing if not good for us (in both of my cubes). He's a work horse.
I don't like Un cards because they don't feel like real Magic cards to me. I don't want my cards to force me to say or do something silly. I also want my cards to look like real Magic cards not have random red text in the rules box. Un cards are fine if that's what your group likes, but as a general rule, my crew doesn't want to play with them, so we opt not to run them. If I did run them, I'd stick to the cards that actually do feel a bit more like real Magic cards.
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My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
540+, Peasant
Take your hybrids out of your gold section
Mana-math Article
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By the way, master thief has been really annoying so far, and the spirit is promising. Fireslinger dealt 5 damage and 7 damage in its maiden match. Vampire outcasts was easy to turn on, but was shut down by mistmeadow skulk. Just keeping you updated.
Ok. next discussion.
What is the opinion on spirit mantle?
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
540+, Peasant
Take your hybrids out of your gold section
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