Before we continue with this, I'd like to apologise if we seem to be double-teaming you. You've raised some interesting points, and opened up some very interesting discussion. From what you've already said, it's obvious you've got some very unique views and you look at Pauper Cube as not just a collection of cards, but as one complex machine. I really like that.
Yeah, I share this view. Just wanted to share my opinion in the discussion, do whatever you want with your own cube.
I've been thinking about one thing - red X burn spells. They're really the best red common finishers, yet as far as I know there are only three which anyone runs:
Rolling Thunder: Insane card. Been called the best card in some cubes, and with good reason. Don't give it that mantle myself, but it is amazing.
Fireball: Better than Thunder in powered cubes (that's a point of debate, though). Here it's not quite as good, but its splashability makes it great in more decks.
Kaervek's Torch: Any counter protection is good counter protection, so while not as good as the other two, it's perfectly playable.
And that's where it ends. Few people play anything else, really. I suppose Pyrotechnics kind of counts, it fills a similar role, but not quite the same one.
What do people think about including Disintegrate and/or Lava Burst in 360 cubes? Bigger cubes? I'm tempted to put one more in my 360 card cube as they're great spells that get splashed really often (Sprout Swarm is probably the only card that gets splashed more than Fireball here, though Faith's Fetters and Guardian of the Guildpact are close ones that come to mind)
A similar but different question: Does Rock Slide have any potential? It seems rather narrow and obviously a worse Rolling Thunder, but that's not saying much.
Nah, I'll rarely ever feel like I'm being double-teamed, especially since the pauper cube crew seem like a reasonable group.
On Rock Slide, I flagged it as a maybe for mine, but as a combat trick more than anything. I think that what kills it is not the attacking or blocking limitations, though, but rather the inability to target flying creatures, which can really mess up your math if they choose to block with flyers.
Apart from probably having a ridiculously small pool to build around, it would probably be great! And have more relevance to the current limited format, too. That could be a bad thing if it's a terrible format, though
Well, you could always make a completely new thread. And if you do it Pauper, I can link to it in my Pauper Cube Resources since I assume it would generate some discussion that may be relevant to Pauper cubists.
In other news, since my edh deck is part of my cube, my buddies and I didn't get to draft the rare cube but we did draft my pauper cube.
Even though it got hated out of the evaluations, I wanted to give a shout out to the unsung hero that is Opal Champion.
There were three of us, and we drafted my pauper cube Rotisserie style. My friend took a u/g/b deck control mid range-control deck and my friends son drafted R/B aggro.
I went White/Red aggro and smoked. Every time Opal Champion came down on turn 3-4 it didn't even feel like I was playing an enchantment. And a 3/3 first striker for three became extremely annoying when I would equip that bonesplitter to it. It swung for 3+ damage on turn 4 + nearly every match I played.
It was a similar result with Opal Gargoyle but it just felt like a boring old 2/2. Nothing really special but it really felt a lot like an aggro critter.
They play mind wrecking games with your opponent. More so if the creature is stronger, and if the deck is more controlish it just gains more ump. If you are playing against a really really strong aggro deck, fine they might remove it when its a creature, but if they don't its going to be a 3/3 mother of a road block.
Next question: how much ramp in green is enough ramp?
I'm currently running around 480, and 70 in green. Currently, I have 18/70 green cards that ramp.
Basically the same thing as Lanxal's green.
What would you guys suggest is the right amount of ramp for this cube? What effects does ramp have in Pauper Cube - is it weaker or stronger than in normal cubes?
I'd imagine it has to be weaker, considering counterspells, destroy effects and burn are still in force at common, but there aren't such impressive monsters with ways to protect themselves available.
The ramp question is one that can't be answered clear-cut without extensive testing (read: playing). Right now, I'm happy as can be with my ramp, but I agree that too much may weaken green as a color.
Anyone tried Sinkhole + Stone Rain and all the land d shenanigans in their pauper cubes yet? My cube doesn't have any pure land destruction cards yet, but I'm contemplating adding more, as well as maybe adding an affinity theme once all of Scars is released and I can put enough playable artifacts in it.
Also, another question, what's a clear cut first pick for you guys in pauper cubes (like in regular cube, it's Sol Ring/Library)? I get a lot of varying answers from seasoned cube drafters, but mostly because they haven't played a lot of pauper to begin with. Personally I'm thinking it's either some sort of an engine card (like Grim Harvest), or ultra hard to deal with card like Rancor. But it's kinda hard to pick out the "Sol Ring" in a pauper cube.
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Check out my pauper cube! and thanks to PurpleD @ [<--- Left Play Design <---] for making this awesome banner!
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Anyone tried Sinkhole + Stone Rain and all the land d shenanigans in their pauper cubes yet? My cube doesn't have any pure land destruction cards yet, but I'm contemplating adding more, as well as maybe adding an affinity theme once all of Scars is released and I can put enough playable artifacts in it.
Much like in regular cubes, I mainly use either the LD spells that have a good benefit to them at a reasonable cost (Molten Rain as it almost always deals 2, Aftershock due to flexbility) or are really cheap (like... well, Sinkhole, because it's so cheap, mana-wise.) They're a great boost to aggro decks (I swore that there was a post earlier that enabling aggro wasn't really necessary in commons cubes [which is quite false], but I can't find it. Huh.) especially with things like bouncelands or land enchantments (Zendikons, Fertile Ground, Overgrowth.)
There aren't enough artifacts to make affinity playable in a cube. There may be enough artifacts, once Scars block is done to make metalcraft playable (Bleak Coven Vampires would be great if there was adequate metalcraft support.) I looked at the available commons in Scars and artifacts make up about 30% of them and common cubes can't really provide that kind of support, at least for now. Even if metalcraft was supported, I don't think that the cards would be good enough to be playable - the only affinity cards that I feel would be good enough on their own would be the Tooth/Shield of Chiss-Goria (and even those are highly questionable.)
Also, another question, what's a clear cut first pick for you guys in pauper cubes (like in regular cube, it's Sol Ring/Library)? I get a lot of varying answers from seasoned cube drafters, but mostly because they haven't played a lot of pauper to begin with. Personally I'm thinking it's either some sort of an engine card (like Grim Harvest), or ultra hard to deal with card like Rancor. But it's kinda hard to pick out the "Sol Ring" in a pauper cube.
Much like in regular cubes, I think that there is a "tier 1" of cards in common:
What do you guys feel like is the main difference between pauper & regular cubes, in terms of playstyle? I don't have a regular cube, so I don't have a lot of insight.
I feel like pauper is well suited to Spike type players who want to focus on consistency, efficiency, and mana curves. My impression is that regular cubes do more to cater towards Johnny players who want to create "build-around" style decks, or Timmy players who want to cheat big dudes in.
If this has already been discussed to death, please point me in the right direction?
I'd say both cater to spike players, but Pauper is more reminiscent of real limited whereas normal cubes can be more about power plays or specific synergies.
When my regular cube was starting out, it felt MUCH like a johnny cube because aggro wasn't really support, and it seemed to be control, mid-range jank, and mid-range johnny.
Now that its been fine tuned it feels extremely spikeish.
Pauper feels alot like I am playing core set sealed.
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Yeah, I share this view. Just wanted to share my opinion in the discussion, do whatever you want with your own cube.
I've been thinking about one thing - red X burn spells. They're really the best red common finishers, yet as far as I know there are only three which anyone runs:
Rolling Thunder: Insane card. Been called the best card in some cubes, and with good reason. Don't give it that mantle myself, but it is amazing.
Fireball: Better than Thunder in powered cubes (that's a point of debate, though). Here it's not quite as good, but its splashability makes it great in more decks.
Kaervek's Torch: Any counter protection is good counter protection, so while not as good as the other two, it's perfectly playable.
And that's where it ends. Few people play anything else, really. I suppose Pyrotechnics kind of counts, it fills a similar role, but not quite the same one.
What do people think about including Disintegrate and/or Lava Burst in 360 cubes? Bigger cubes? I'm tempted to put one more in my 360 card cube as they're great spells that get splashed really often (Sprout Swarm is probably the only card that gets splashed more than Fireball here, though Faith's Fetters and Guardian of the Guildpact are close ones that come to mind)
A similar but different question: Does Rock Slide have any potential? It seems rather narrow and obviously a worse Rolling Thunder, but that's not saying much.
I am liking the discussion, too, by the way.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Rock Slide is just too severely weakened, me thinks, from all the restrictions. Not worthy.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
On Rock Slide, I flagged it as a maybe for mine, but as a combat trick more than anything. I think that what kills it is not the attacking or blocking limitations, though, but rather the inability to target flying creatures, which can really mess up your math if they choose to block with flyers.
Any thoughts?
I'd make it 360 for sure.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Well, if you do make it, it'll be interesting as hell. I'll keep up the Set Reviews just for you (although I was going to do them anyway. xD)
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
i don't have nearly as much commons from zen-eldrazi as I do from scars foward is just a good place to start for me is all
I might make it peasant since I think that is safe but then I have to leave this lovely thread
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Even though it got hated out of the evaluations, I wanted to give a shout out to the unsung hero that is Opal Champion.
There were three of us, and we drafted my pauper cube Rotisserie style. My friend took a u/g/b deck control mid range-control deck and my friends son drafted R/B aggro.
I went White/Red aggro and smoked. Every time Opal Champion came down on turn 3-4 it didn't even feel like I was playing an enchantment. And a 3/3 first striker for three became extremely annoying when I would equip that bonesplitter to it. It swung for 3+ damage on turn 4 + nearly every match I played.
It was a similar result with Opal Gargoyle but it just felt like a boring old 2/2. Nothing really special but it really felt a lot like an aggro critter.
I'm currently running around 480, and 70 in green. Currently, I have 18/70 green cards that ramp.
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Groundswell
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Overgrown Battlement
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Wall of Roots
1 Werebear
1 Edge of Autumn
1 Fertile Ground
1 Rampant Growth
1 Fertilid
1 Cultivate
1 Growth Spasm
1 Harrow
1 Kodama's Reach
I'm also running signets, karoos, and panoramas for fixing right now, and some of the artifacts that fix/ramp (pilgrim's eye, scuttlemutt, etc).
I realize that ramping and fixing are two different mechanisms, but my concern is that green is too ramp focused.
My current non-ramp green cards are
1 Durkwood Baloth
1 Jungle Lion
1 Pouncing Jaguar
1 Wild Dogs
1 Wild Nacatl
1 Garruk's Companion
1 Mire Boa
1 River Boa
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Wild Mongrel
1 Hungry Spriggan
1 Jolrael's Centaur
1 Sacred Wolf
1 Simian Grunts
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Blastoderm
1 Kozilek's Predator
1 Nantuko Vigilante
1 Penumbra Spider
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Wild Leotau
1 Wildheart Invoker
1 Aerie Ouphes
1 Ghor-Clan Savage
1 Giant Dustwasp
1 Greater Basilisk
1 Stampeding Rhino
1 Territorial Baloth
1 Citanul Woodreaders
1 Oran-Rief Recluse
1 Mold Shambler
1 Havenwood Wurm
1 Siege Wurm
1 Wirewood Guardian
1 Kavu Primarch
1 Giant Growth
1 Rancor
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Fists of Ironwood
1 Lignify
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Gilt-Leaf Ambush
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Moment's Peace
1 Presence of Gond
1 Savage Silhouette
1 Snake Umbra
1 Acorn Harvest
1 Elephant Ambush
1 Scatter the Seeds
Basically the same thing as Lanxal's green.
What would you guys suggest is the right amount of ramp for this cube? What effects does ramp have in Pauper Cube - is it weaker or stronger than in normal cubes?
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Actually, I was thinking I'd do some Pauper cube reviews as well. No sense in you doing(or getting to do) everything.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Also, another question, what's a clear cut first pick for you guys in pauper cubes (like in regular cube, it's Sol Ring/Library)? I get a lot of varying answers from seasoned cube drafters, but mostly because they haven't played a lot of pauper to begin with. Personally I'm thinking it's either some sort of an engine card (like Grim Harvest), or ultra hard to deal with card like Rancor. But it's kinda hard to pick out the "Sol Ring" in a pauper cube.
Check out my pauper cube!
and thanks to PurpleD @ [<--- Left Play Design <---] for making this awesome banner!
Limited is awesome, join us at [Limited]!
As far as first pick for me, Guardian of the Guildpact he's just bonkers.
Guardian of the Guildpact
and for the colorless section, it's Bonesplitter and Ulamog's Crusher.
Crusher is so insane; I think I've only lost one time ever after casting it.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Much like in regular cubes, I mainly use either the LD spells that have a good benefit to them at a reasonable cost (Molten Rain as it almost always deals 2, Aftershock due to flexbility) or are really cheap (like... well, Sinkhole, because it's so cheap, mana-wise.) They're a great boost to aggro decks (I swore that there was a post earlier that enabling aggro wasn't really necessary in commons cubes [which is quite false], but I can't find it. Huh.) especially with things like bouncelands or land enchantments (Zendikons, Fertile Ground, Overgrowth.)
There aren't enough artifacts to make affinity playable in a cube. There may be enough artifacts, once Scars block is done to make metalcraft playable (Bleak Coven Vampires would be great if there was adequate metalcraft support.) I looked at the available commons in Scars and artifacts make up about 30% of them and common cubes can't really provide that kind of support, at least for now. Even if metalcraft was supported, I don't think that the cards would be good enough to be playable - the only affinity cards that I feel would be good enough on their own would be the Tooth/Shield of Chiss-Goria (and even those are highly questionable.)
Much like in regular cubes, I think that there is a "tier 1" of cards in common:
Capsize
Pestilence
Guardian of the Guildpact
Rancor
Tortured Existence
Sprout Swarm
Grim Harvest
Disturbed Burial
Blastoderm (5 toughness is HUGE in the format, especially w/shroud)
Serrated Arrows
Vulshok Morningstar
Opaline Bracers
Arguably Mulldrifter, Rolling Thunder, Pyrotechnics and Crypt Rats as well.
As for what's the best out of those, that's up to debate.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
I feel like pauper is well suited to Spike type players who want to focus on consistency, efficiency, and mana curves. My impression is that regular cubes do more to cater towards Johnny players who want to create "build-around" style decks, or Timmy players who want to cheat big dudes in.
If this has already been discussed to death, please point me in the right direction?
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Now that its been fine tuned it feels extremely spikeish.
Pauper feels alot like I am playing core set sealed.