I don't know if I agree with having each color having the same creature count however. For me, that really removes some of the personality and identity of each color - for example, Green naturally should have more creatures. To each his own though!
Definitely agree with this. Part of what makes colors different is that some colors care about creatures more than others, and that shows in what main archetypes are good. Specifically, I think you significantly hurt (blue) control if you equalize creature counts across colors. You might also hurt green a fair bit because green's non-creature spells are mostly pretty underwhelming and equalizing creature counts probably entails cutting decent green creatures (at least it would in my cube).
Maybe its the difference in groups, but Blue based control was actually enhanced by having access to more creatures. Adding in decent blockers made a significant difference to how Blue played.
Maybe its the difference in groups, but Blue based control was actually enhanced by having access to more creatures. Adding in decent blockers made a significant difference to how Blue played.
Yeah blue blockers are great and necessary. Everyone should be running a decent number of them.
The big problem here is Green. I have 42/56 of my Green cards are creatures. Those five creatures I would have to cut to get down to 37 are more interesting, more flexible, less redundant, and overall better than the five non-creatures I'd have to bring in to keep the balance.
Yes, it is definitely difficult for Green. I've got a couple slots I'm still trying different cards out in, but I think it is obtainable. If anything, just getting them close to the same number may be sufficient.
You could also play a lot of the self-mill dudes like that zombie in the new set and self-mill spells like mulch.
I'm rather partial to Infernal Caretaker, and there's plenty of common zombies, many of which are pretty decent in Pauper land. Returning five dudes to your hand is pretty slamtastic.
Yes, it is definitely difficult for Green. I've got a couple slots I'm still trying different cards out in, but I think it is obtainable. If anything, just getting them close to the same number may be sufficient.
I'm still confused about exactly what issue you're trying to solve by equalizing creatures across colors and why it can't be solved by means other than imposing a cube design constraint. Sure, creatures are the most important type of card in pauper cube (blue included - even control decks want them), but colors also do different things, some of which are more creature-reliant than others. I've personally found a spread of creature proportions ranging between ~50% (blue) and ~70% (green) seems to work really well. But hey, whatever works for you.
So far it's been going really nicely and is a really strong archetype with the right draft.
How often does this fully come together in drafts? It still seems like there are a few relatively narrow core cards you really have to pick up otherwise you just end up with a super durdly deck. Also, what does the ideal (or average) G/B dredge deck in your cube look like?
I want to share some of this post TheOrangeMitten wrote about archetypes in case you guys missed it, because I found myself nodding along with it and it seems relevant probably?
A card may be good in one cube, while not so good in another cube. It can be advantageous to have very defined narrow archetypes to make strong decks. It can also be rewarding to have lots of safe consistent cards too. They can also be boring in both senses due to how well they work and how the meta evolves around them.
For example, Innistrad drafts with spider spawning decks. A very narrow strategy that could blow people out if the stars aligned correctly. As Dampen Thoughts was in Kamigawa as well. Sometimes a card can make a deck itself, but you need the support around it to exist.
Also if you make niche archetypes, if a card is going to be a late pick usually, then that is completely fine. I dislike the argument that if a card is too narrow, that it will be a really late pick. Infact that can help build consistent archetypes. For example, I run seller of songbirds. That card is terrible in most decks. Downright bad. Now why on earth would I run that card? Cause the token player can usually count on it wheeling and getting it back. The card is decent in tokens, it isn't the strongest, but it is just fine. Throw down an "All creaters get +2/+2 until EOT" or any equipment, or ghostly flicker loop, and the card becomes playable.
I also want to add my observation that if you draft 3 packs of 15 cards, with every card in your cube being solidly playable, any decent draft will gave you plenty more playable cards than you need for your 40 card deck. The result is something like 10-20% of the cards in your cube spend most of their time in sideboards, because players almost always draft 24 better cards.
Maybe some people like the idea of such a low-risk draft environment, but I want something more skill-testing and interesting. One option is reducing pack size, as I believe Al-Z-Heimer does (and that would also allow you to reduce total cube size as well.) The other option is finding better use for the cube space occupied by the weakest cards. My approach to this is the inclusion of those narrow, archetype specific cards, equivalent to orangemitten's seller of songbirds.
There are a couple unusual archetypes I run, and I run some weird cards that are really only good when that deck comes together.
U/x draw-go: rewind, inspiration, flash creatures and instants in general. When this deck comes together, you can go entire games without ever having to tap more than 1 or 2 lands on your own turn, or at least until turn 17 when you finally drop your aven fleetwing or benthic giant.
BR control: Uses graveyard recursion as its main source of card advantage. morgue burst should find its way to you, and bloodpyre elemental is actually good when you're packing death denied or urborg uprising or any number of other raise dead effects. Ghitu slinger makes multiple appearances. Woe to the aggro player trying to get around your bogardan firefiend, etc.
Enchantments matter/voltron: commune with the gods finds the other piece of your "combo" of (hexproof creature) + (something to put on hexproof creature) while also potentially feeding auramancer/griffin dreamfinder.
I also run quite a few cards that are only playable in aggro or only playable in control, but it seems like you guys are talking about more specific decks than those broad terms describe.
So far it's been going really nicely and is a really strong archetype with the right draft.
How often does this fully come together in drafts? It still seems like there are a few relatively narrow core cards you really have to pick up otherwise you just end up with a super durdly deck. Also, what does the ideal (or average) G/B dredge deck in your cube look like?
More often than you think, or at least some iteration of it. It honestly comes down to having only 3-4 of the cards together at once, and let the synergies really go to work.
For example, one player in my draft was rocking Undertaker, Basking Rootwalla, and Disturbed Burial. Just those 3 cards alone you can get SO much leverage out of thanks to the Madness.
Another one of my buddies had Grisly Salvage paired with Werebear in a BUG deck, popping insane Flaskbacks like Moment's Peace or Think Twice really gave him a nice shell, and a 4/4.
But yeah, it's hard to really make out what the "ideal" deck would be at the moment, it needs a bit more testing on my end. For me though, it was really about the card synergy, but I see what you're saying about how you need the right card selection otherwise you might end up with a durdly deck - I definitely took that into account when making these choices. Two cards I REALLY wanted; Dregscape Zombie and Viscera Dragger honestly just couldn't make the cut since they really lacked in other archetypes (In this case, it would have been something like Black Aggro or Midrange) over something like Vampire Interloper. Thankfully so far though, the cards I added are pretty solid picks in other types of decks. The only ones that were kind of iffy were Putrid Imp, and Stinkweed Imp - but they haven't been BAD so far. Putrid is at least interesting in other decks as a T1 play, and Stinkweed is always a pseduo removal that can come back, so I'm not complaining.
Sorry about the rant too, I just thought I should try to explain my thought process on adding them in, but like I said so far they're often picked up pretty quick in drafts, especially if you can get 2-3 other core cards to help create that Dredgy, graveyard oriented deck.
I was thinking about them earlier, does Pauper have the card support for a steal and sac themed archetype in RB via Act of Treason and Fling/Carrion Feeder, for example? I know we don't get Barrage of Expendables or Goblin Bombardment unfortunately, but something to kind of stand in for that might be all that archetype needs to be a strong aggro archetype with a kind of synergy flair. And for UR, can Spells Matter be a proper archetype yet? We have Kiln Fiend, Wee Dragonauts, Nivix Cyclops, Goblin Electromancer and play a high density of good spells in U and R - even without a spells matter theme. I think that will be something that I will try to test more, especially if I move from 360 cards to anything more (though maybe those should just be my 3 UR cards and see what happens).
Play to win. If you don't, you're disrespecting everyone you're playing with by wasting their time. The Douchbag check is at the level of deck construction.
I think Dragger is actually a decent card. A 3/3 is always a relevant body in Pauper, cylcling is nice, unearth is good for Midrange beats. Dregscape Zombie's a bit more of a stretch unfortunately. Unearth creatures work well with Sac outlets. We need a few more good ones in black to help drag those two up from Borderline to Cubable cards. I used to pair them with Carrion Feeder, Stinkweed Imp, and Rotting Rats in a silly Mono-Black Pauper Constructed Deck.
At some point I'll get the BG dredge deck rolling, but it still needs some support from Wizards. We need another Flashback core set!
It's definitely a good card, but I don't think good enough to really take anything out at the moment :/
Where this gets interesting is how you shift your spells a bit to further support this archetype. Say you start with some double strike spells like Double Cleave to make bigger damaging turns with a Kiln Fiend. Suddenly, you have a mono red direction available with pumping creatures and doing huge bursts of damage (think Scorchwalker Bloodrush + Double Cleave or Immolating Souleater + Double Cleave). With ways to pump creatures, effects that use power for damage are now much better: Fall of the Hammer, Soul's Fire, Fling. These first two cards work well in Green decks too, but the last card works with Black.
Seconded. Don't forget Mnemic Wall either. It's a really solid shell, even without the Cyclops. It's pretty much the only reason why I keep Delver in nowadays.
mslano, thanks so much! That was super helpful, and I will probably be overhauling my cube shortly to try to really make something like that happen. The nice thing is that a spells matter deck just seems powerful with a synergy upside, and the token production/sacrificing cards really branched out quickly! I am going to add the Presence of Gond+Midnight Guard combo already, so it will be nice to have token and sacrifice support in multiple colors! Thanks for the great ideas.
ntDars, I am playing Mnemonic Wall and Archaeomancer currently so it will be good to support the wall with the actual archetype, hah. Thanks!
Play to win. If you don't, you're disrespecting everyone you're playing with by wasting their time. The Douchbag check is at the level of deck construction.
Heh, it's quite similar to my cube (around 80% overlap, according to cubetutor). From a brief glance over it, I'm wondering why you don't include the following cards, which are solid:
Heh, it's quite similar to my cube (around 80% overlap, according to cubetutor). From a brief glance over it, I'm wondering why you don't include the following cards, which are solid:
The similarity between our cubes isn't a coincidence. When making the most recent round of updates, I used your cube, the "Evaluate Everything" project,, and the following two when considering cards I wasn't running: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/582 and http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/2190. My 420 list was based off of Lanxal's and Styborski's, but I think the cubes people have listed on this website are better constructed than Styborski's, so I've gravitated toward using other people's lists when designing my own. I hope you don't mind the plagiarism!
Concerning the cards you listed: Archaeomancer: This one probably needs to go in, especially with the number of instants/sorceries I'm running in my blue section. Potential cuts out of the four-drop slot to make way include Elgaud Shieldmate and Makeshift Mauler. Not sure which way approach this, right now. Perilous Shadow: This one's interesting--definitely a card that's bad in constructed but can be a potential finisher in limited. I didn't consider it originally because I considered it too mana-intensive (four mana for a wall that costs two more mana to pump) but it's nearly unkillable and I can see it being used as a finisher in a grindy control deck. What types of decks use this guy, and am I right in guessing he's mostly a finisher (i.e, he costs 4 mana to cast, but you want to have a lot more mana than that available in the end-game to make use of him)? Marauding Maulhorn: I'm still not 100% sold on this one. I can see that he's definitely cubeable, but I feel like Gathan Raiders may be a little bit more versatile than the all-in aggro strategy this guy plays into. I can see myself adding him at some point, though. Rukh Egg: I'm really considering adding this one. When you think of it as a 3-toughness wall that turns into a 4/4 that can still be a wall if you want, it looks a lot better, maybe even better than Wall of Heat. It's in the 4-drop slot, though, so finding something to cut may be tricky. Possibly Lava Burst? Wild Nacatl: This one is a personal design choice. I don't think Wild Nacatl should go in a cube's Green section, since it's only played in the context of GR, GW, and (less often in pauper) Naya decks. That said, it could just as easily go in a Gruul section or a Selesnya section, or even in a Naya section if you wanted three-color sections for your cube (which I don't). Since figuring out where to put him is so confusing, I've just kept him out of my cube for now.
The similarity between our cubes isn't a coincidence. When making the most recent round of updates, I used your cube, the "Evaluate Everything" project,, and the following two when considering cards I wasn't running: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/582 and http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/2190. My 420 list was based off of Lanxal's and Styborski's, but I think the cubes people have listed on this website are better constructed than Styborski's, so I've gravitated toward using other people's lists when designing my own. I hope you don't mind the plagiarism!
Heh, I'm flattered. I started with Styborski's list too (a few years ago), and it's gone through a ton of changes since then. I have to give a lot of credit to Al's Evaluate Everything project, though; it's probably the singly most useful pauper cube resource out there right now.
Concerning the cards you listed: Archaeomancer: This one probably needs to go in, especially with the number of instants/sorceries I'm running in my blue section. Potential cuts out of the four-drop slot to make way include Elgaud Shieldmate and Makeshift Mauler. Not sure which way approach this, right now. Perilous Shadow: This one's interesting--definitely a card that's bad in constructed but can be a potential finisher in limited. I didn't consider it originally because I considered it too mana-intensive (four mana for a wall that costs two more mana to pump) but it's nearly unkillable and I can see it being used as a finisher in a grindy control deck. What types of decks use this guy, and am I right in guessing he's mostly a finisher (i.e, he costs 4 mana to cast, but you want to have a lot more mana than that available in the end-game to make use of him)? Marauding Maulhorn: I'm still not 100% sold on this one. I can see that he's definitely cubeable, but I feel like Gathan Raiders may be a little bit more versatile than the all-in aggro strategy this guy plays into. I can see myself adding him at some point, though. Rukh Egg: I'm really considering adding this one. When you think of it as a 3-toughness wall that turns into a 4/4 that can still be a wall if you want, it looks a lot better, maybe even better than Wall of Heat. It's in the 4-drop slot, though, so finding something to cut may be tricky. Possibly Lava Burst?
Perilous Shadow - I think this card's pretty easy to underrate, but it's been surprisingly good in midrange, control, and ramp decks (pretty much every non-aggro black deck) for me. It easily dominates grindy games, it's basically immune to burn, and 4+ toughness means it can help stabilize against aggro decks relatively easily while being good against midrange as well. You're right that it's a bit mana-intensive turn 4, but assuming it isn't dealt with quickly it can really easily get out of hand.
Rukh Egg - I think it's probably the best red control creature. You either keep blocking or you get a huge threat that ends the game quickly. I've even bolted my own Rukh Egg before. It plays both a defensive role and a finisher role well for red control decks. Not sure what I'd cut for it; all of the red X spells are really good. Maybe Hissing Iguanar?
Archaeomancer - I'd definitely include this over Elgaud Shieldmate. Spell recursion in any blue deck is just incredibly strong in a format like this where cards don't usually get multiple uses (we don't have many good reanimation spells, spells with flashback, etc.). Elgaud Shieldmate's a really interesting card but it has a high likelihood of doing pretty much nothing; I'm trying out some other cards in its place right now. Makeshift Mauler is just a really efficient creature that's at least decent most of the time in most blue decks, which makes it rank a bit higher than Elgaud Shieldmate for me.
Marauding Maulhorn - Yeah, it's not on quite the same level as the other cards I listed, but a 5/3 for 4 mana backed up with removal in hand ends the game incredibly quickly and even without removal backup, it isn't easy to block profitably. I mainly listed it earlier because you don't have that many 4 drop creatures, so it might be worth considering. Red has a lot of okay 2-3 CMC creatures but comparably few decent 4 CMC aggro creatures, which are really important to help aggro decks finish out the game. Not too sure how it compares to Gathan Raiders; I cut all morph from my cube a really long time ago.
I'm a new member on here but I have been following this thread for some time as a non-member and I finally decided to join the conversation. Right now I am fairly happy where my cube is but I would love some feedback from fellow cubers so here is my list: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/4707
I'm a new member on here but I have been following this thread for some time as a non-member and I finally decided to join the conversation. Right now I am fairly happy where my cube is but I would love some feedback from fellow cubers so here is my list: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/4707
Welcome! I don't have that much to add on topics other than what Runner covered; I think answering the archetypes question is important in order for anyone here to give feedback more detailed or broader than questions about individual cards.
White's enchantments as removal suite alone might be enough to make it worth it, but even then it's still usually worse than Hyena Umbra. I'm pretty sure I played it even before I added a dedicated auras theme to my cube and it wasn't fantastic, but it wasn't terrible either.
-You gotta play Ghostly Flicker man, even without Mnemonic Wall and Archaeomancer, it's great in Blue. I actually play those two cards and Drift of Phantasms to search Ghostly Flicker or Capsize for the Blue end game. Ghostly Flicker+Wall/Mancer/Izzet Chronarch+an ETB Creature, is a card advantage engine and a half. It's awesome.
Not really convinced about Ghostly Flicker ... sure the best case scenario is awesome, but most of the time I think getting anything close to that best case is pretty unrealistic, especially at 450 cards. And when you don't get the flicker deck together consistently (we don't have much flicker support in the first place), the actual flicker cards are just super situational. Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall are definitely both worth playing regardless, though.
Unmake is a 3 mana removal spell in the two colors with the most removal options. Not sure what other option there is, but I would avoid it. Maybe Shrieking Grotesque?
I'm partial to Harvest Gwyllion. Part of that might just be that I really like wither as a mechanic. Shrieking Grotesque is certainly also fine.
-Shield of Oversoul is fine, but I don't see a ton of Aura support, so it's out of place. I love Thrill of the Hunt. It gets two cards all the time and is super cheap.
I think they're probably around the same level in terms of "cubeability." Shield of the Oversoul can be a huge bomb for midrange green decks, even without an auras theme. If you're a fan of combat tricks, Thrill of the Hunt is one of the better ones available. It's really just a pity that some of the other guilds aren't nearly as stacked as G/W.
Yeah, I'll disagree here. Phyrexian War Beast is fantastic in aggro decks, where there really isn't much of a downside unless you're so short on lands that you're probably going to lose anyway regardless of whether you put this card or some other aggro card in your deck.
k_alk: I think I'll try out the suggestions you posted. I feel like swapping in Perilous Shadow for Shade's Form or Skeletal Grimace would be a pretty sound improvement. It looks like nobody except Styborski runs Hissing Iguanar, so it looks like it would be a good swap-out for Rukh Egg. I like Elgaud Shieldmate in theory, but I can see how it could be a dud in practice some of the time. Archaeomancer sounds like a more consistently useful pick.
Runner: Holy COW! Thanks for posting such a detailed "cube review." I'm pretty new to cubing and seeing the thought process behind card evaluation explained like that helps a newbie like me learn how to select cards when designing my own. I'd love to see more of those sometime. On that note, I went looking for a replacement for Unmake in the Orzhov section and saw some people running Harvest Gwyllion. What do you think of it?
Elgaud Shieldmate is good! It's just outside the cards I'd play, but I'm at 360 and this is 450.
Harvest Gwyllion is actually pretty awesome and something I'm definitely going to look into. A solidly high toughness creature in black is always welcomed by me and white lends itself to a defensive style occasionally as well.
@Ghostly Flicker, it's by far one of the most fun cards in my cube. Whether the Flicker Deck comes together or not, it's awesome. It does so many little things. I'll admit that I give 187 creatures a bit of a push in general in my cube with things like Sea Gate Oracle, Gryff Vanguard, Emrakul's Hatcher, Kozilek's Predator, Kavu Climber, etc. getting a bit of extra stock that pushes them over the edge and into the list because of Ghostly Flicker, so it's better in my cube than many others. I've even consider Prophetic Prism just because it'd draw you a card with Flicker. But even in a random blue deck it's so incredibly versatile.
It can do two of the following in any combination:
1) Blink an ETB creature
2) Save a creature from removal/combat trick
3) Untap a creature after attackers are declared for a surprise block
4) Remove a removal enchantment from your creature
5) Untap a land to cost two/rarely fix
6) Reset an creature/artifact like Serrated Arrows, Wall of Roots, Phantom Tiger or something withered (we need more of these type of effects, they're interesting)
7) Trigger an ETB effect, mostly evolve
Some of the options are more corner cases, but I've seen them all come up. Its best case scenario puts it as one of the strongest cards in terms of raw power and its worst case scenario is pretty solid too.
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I'm honestly thinking of getting rid of Silent Departure for Flicker. There is so much bounce in Blue for me already that is picked up much quicker, and usually at Instant speed. If you're building a tempo based deck, I pretty much never pick up Departure. Even people that play a more control oriented draft I usually never see run Departure.
Usually my Blue tempo shells end up being a mix of Man o War, Ninja of Deep Hours, Mist Raven, Curfew and Waterfront Bouncer - along with a whole other slew of support spells. Flicker in that kind of shell seems a lot more potent than Departure IMO, but that might just be my meta.
Edit; I'll also usually have a Capsize lockdown before I even have to worry about flashing back Departure.
First off welcome! This community's pretty awesome.
Quickly skimmed through your list and took some notes. Overall, pretty excellent! It's Clear you've lurked and absorbed a lot of what we've talked about.
Some general questions:
Do you get to draft it often?
When you draft what do you typically do? Sealed, 4-person, 6-person, etc.
What archetypes are you going for? (Broad ones like aggro in certain colors and more specific like Hexproof)
Any pet cards?
Thanks for the warm welcome!
I think this immediately touches on the biggest problem with my cube: finding people to play it. I often play 1v1 sealed which is the majority of my play-testing. If I do draft it, I usually do a four person draft. I have done a few six person drafts but that doesn't happen as often as I would like. One of my goals for archetypes is to have a strong aggro theme. Aggro has always been my favorite way to play but I would like to accommodate other play styles into my cube. Some archetypes I find particularly strong in my cube (or at least what I like to draft) are U/B unblockable/tempo, U/R tempo, G/R aggro, Naya aggro, G/W ramp, and G/W/b hexproof. I have really only got my feet wet with the hexproof/aura archetype. I have not fully embraced auras/voltron and I am curious to know what it is like for those who fully committed to it. I don't want it to get over-drafted and dominating so I have kept it to a minimum to keep a balance. I guess I have a couple pet cards. I'm a huge fan of Zhur-Taa Druid because it does everything it's deck wants! It gets in those few points of damage like Goblin Fireslinger, which is a card I used to play in RDW standard, and llanowar elves which I also love because I play elves in modern and it's powerful ramp. I am also partial to [card]Looter il-Kor
[/card] as he does so much work.
On to the notes:
-Ethereal Armor seems a little out of place. No Aura theme really prevalent in White here. Neither Akroan Skyguard or Wingsteed Rider show up. You do have Stave Off, Gods Willing and Prismatic Strands to help pseudo-voltron, but I think you need to go a bit deeper to make a card like Ethereal Armor work out
-Raise the Alarm and Gather the Townsfolk seem out of place because you have no use for the tokens really. They're just two dudes. Which is fine, but without group pumps like Marshaling Cry, they're mediocre.
Ethereal Armor is on the bubble right now. Are there enough other auras to make it/hexproof auras really powerful? Are the other auras worth it? Wingsteed Rider has been in and out of my cube for the same reason. I am still not sure I should fully commit to auras. I actually agree with the token producers being kind of weak here. They are really just cards I added early in the cube and they have just kind of stuck around since. Since I am not anxious to play Marshaling cry, maybe I should consider opening slots for more aura based cards.
-I like that you have a decent number of morphs in blue. Makes them matter
-How is Dream Cache? Seems like a cool card to really sculpt a hand
-You gotta play Ghostly Flicker man, even without Mnemonic Wall and Archaeomancer, it's great in Blue. I actually play those two cards and Drift of Phantasms to search Ghostly Flicker or Capsize for the Blue end game. Ghostly Flicker+Wall/Mancer/Izzet Chronarch+an ETB Creature, is a card advantage engine and a half. It's awesome.
-Five drops seem light in general for blue. I'd add two or even more honestly. 5's are pretty important for Blue to close out a game. Lots of options here for fliers from Gryff Vanguard to Spire Monitor. Also the aforementioned Mnemonic Wall
I like Dream Cache but I was actually going to replace it with Serum Visions. It's only a matter of finding one since modern is making things silly. I'm going to be honest, I kinda just breezed over Ghostly Flicker the first time I saw it and I never really considered it. It's a great suggestion so I'll try to find a spot for it. I have never been super impressed with cards like Spire Monitor but I might give it a try.
-Some of the black creatures are pretty bad imo, they may be the best options but eh. Highborn Ghoul is such a shame it's X/1 for BB, Skinthinner is really expensive to flip and Black always has removal, also the only morph in black I think, Skulking Ghost never impressed, Dark Ritual isn't very good, but iconic
-Disease Carrier and Driver of the Dead seem out of place because there's no sac theme at all in your black. They're serviceable cards on their own but like a little support to do more. Cards like Carrion Feeder, Viscera Seer, Altar's Reap, are options for a little more flavor and synergy, though they are a little weak. Sac in general is weak right now, but every set I look out for options to expand it because the pieces are there... eventually.
-Syphon Life sucked for me and if you want to support Black control, which Corrupt suggests you do, I'd definitely play Perilous Shadow. It's just great. Big butt to wall, goes on the offense big time when you need it too. BB for Gary (Gray Merchant of Asphodel). You can also play Tendrils of Corruption and Darkling Stalker as decent cards for heavy black control. Oh and I'm trying out Cuombajj Witches right now. High toughness for Pestilence and Crypt Rats (blocking too), pinger to kill aggro dudes, and BB for Gary.
Highborn Ghoul is in there for my U/B unblockable archetype but they don't really need it. It's really just there because I couldn't thing of much better options. I also agree with Skinthinner being fairly weak so maybe I'll exchange it for on of your mentioned black control cards. Skulking Ghost might actually be a pseudo pet card of mine. I love its art and flavor and I would consider it almost a second Nezumi Cutthroat since it dies to almost the exact same things and is almost as good at getting damage in. I also agree that Disease Carrier and Driver of the Dead are fairly weak and I am not really interested in a sac theme so I will probably cut them for the cards you suggested. I haven't personally had the opportunity to play with Syphon Life yet but I will keep what you said in mind.
-Hissing Iguanar looks out of place without any sac
-Without mass pump like Trumpet Blast, I don't think Dragon Fodder or Krenko's Command are all that great. You have Goblin Bushwacker, but I don't think it's enough. Sac works with them too but we need better sac outlets really badly...
-You could get away with another Fireball effect at 450. There's a few options
-Magma Burst is a good card to consider
I agree with you on Hissing Iguanar since I haven't been impressed with it myself. The goblin token producers I feel have more use than the white ones. They have synergy with Sparksmith and I also run dynacharge which I do believe you missed. Do you have any good suggestions for extra fireballs? Magma Burst seems overcosted, is it worth its cost?
-You don't seem to support Red control at all. If you were interested look into another X-Spell or two, Rukh Egg, Emrakul's Hatcher, Chartooth Tiger, and Wall of Heat.
My playstyle is showing . As I mentioned before, I am an aggro player so I look at red as THE aggro colour hence why I didn't leave much room for control. I have, however, been interested in adding more big red stompy guys in my cube so I'll consider your suggestions.
-Didn't like Nightshade Peddler. I got blown-out too often because they'd remove him after attacks and then my block to trade with was just a chump or all of a sudden my attack was awful. Cute with pingers but that's about it. Too risky.
-I like your Green section otherwise. Your 3's seem a little light. They're important in Green because of Turn 1 Mana Elf, turn 2 3-drop. Not sure what should be added though... Oh Aura Gnarlid is awesome even with only very casual Aura support. He's semi-evasive, which is huge, and if you grow him at all, he's a house. Borderland Ranger is good too. Solid blocker, fixes, only one Green mana. Consider Utopia Sprawl as well. Another mana elf, fixes, cool with Arbor Elf.
I have felt sketchy about peddler as well. Aura Gnarlid is a good suggestion, especially if I decide to commit to auras. Maybe I'll make that switch. I'll consider borderland ranger but I have always found cards with that effect fairly boring. Funny thing about Utopia Sprawl, I've been meaning to put the card in for some time but the site I buy from is sold out and I haven't searched my LGS for it yet.
-I don't like using a multi slot on a standard removal spell like Curse of Chains. It's a great card and all but eh boring. I like Silkbind Faerie quite a bit. Cool with Viridian Longbow especially.
-I like Shadow Guildmage over Rakdos Shred-Freak
-I play Mystical Teachings to help out that Capsize, Sprout Swarm, or Ghostly Flicker plan that many control decks get on.
-Unmake is a 3 mana removal spell in the two colors with the most removal options. Not sure what other option there is, but I would avoid it. Maybe Shrieking Grotesque?
-Shield of Oversoul is fine, but I don't see a ton of Aura support, so it's out of place. I love Thrill of the Hunt. It gets two cards all the time and is super cheap.
I like that take on multicolor, maybe I'll try out removing the removal. I used to play mystical teachings but I think there are too many good Dimir cards that are superior. Shadow Guildmage is interesting for sure, maybe I'll try it. In regards to the Sheild of the Oversoul, I've been blown out by that card and I feel like it deserves its spot.
Is oversoul essentially a green card? I could consider adding it as one.
When I cycle out Rebels, I'll try to support more auras in White so a card like Ethereal Armor will get some play from me. It can definitely do work just because of the White removal.
Is oversoul essentially a green card? I could consider adding it as one.
When I cycle out Rebels, I'll try to support more auras in White so a card like Ethereal Armor will get some play from me. It can definitely do work just because of the White removal.
Oversoul is better in green for sure but I like it in the Selesnya slot since white can utilize it as well. Also centaur healer with the shield is bonkers!
Things only ever target in magic if it literally says "target" and it means target in reference to the thing you're talking about.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Maybe its the difference in groups, but Blue based control was actually enhanced by having access to more creatures. Adding in decent blockers made a significant difference to how Blue played.
I just looked at your cube on ct but couldn't see many cards that supported this archetype. Are some of the test cards unlisted?
Yes, it is definitely difficult for Green. I've got a couple slots I'm still trying different cards out in, but I think it is obtainable. If anything, just getting them close to the same number may be sufficient.
Oh yeah sorry about that, here are the missing ones;
Golgari Brownscale
Putrid Imp
Stinkweed Imp
Grisly Salvage
Already in the cube that synergize really well are;
Basking Rootwalla
Undertaker
Sluiceway Scorpion
Tortured Existence
Exhume
Unearth
Gravedigger
Desecrator Hag
Disturbed Burial
Werebear
And basically anything with Flashback. So far it's been going really nicely and is a really strong archetype with the right draft.
I'm rather partial to Infernal Caretaker, and there's plenty of common zombies, many of which are pretty decent in Pauper land. Returning five dudes to your hand is pretty slamtastic.
I'm still confused about exactly what issue you're trying to solve by equalizing creatures across colors and why it can't be solved by means other than imposing a cube design constraint. Sure, creatures are the most important type of card in pauper cube (blue included - even control decks want them), but colors also do different things, some of which are more creature-reliant than others. I've personally found a spread of creature proportions ranging between ~50% (blue) and ~70% (green) seems to work really well. But hey, whatever works for you.
How often does this fully come together in drafts? It still seems like there are a few relatively narrow core cards you really have to pick up otherwise you just end up with a super durdly deck. Also, what does the ideal (or average) G/B dredge deck in your cube look like?
I also want to add my observation that if you draft 3 packs of 15 cards, with every card in your cube being solidly playable, any decent draft will gave you plenty more playable cards than you need for your 40 card deck. The result is something like 10-20% of the cards in your cube spend most of their time in sideboards, because players almost always draft 24 better cards.
Maybe some people like the idea of such a low-risk draft environment, but I want something more skill-testing and interesting. One option is reducing pack size, as I believe Al-Z-Heimer does (and that would also allow you to reduce total cube size as well.) The other option is finding better use for the cube space occupied by the weakest cards. My approach to this is the inclusion of those narrow, archetype specific cards, equivalent to orangemitten's seller of songbirds.
There are a couple unusual archetypes I run, and I run some weird cards that are really only good when that deck comes together.
U/x draw-go: rewind, inspiration, flash creatures and instants in general. When this deck comes together, you can go entire games without ever having to tap more than 1 or 2 lands on your own turn, or at least until turn 17 when you finally drop your aven fleetwing or benthic giant.
BR control: Uses graveyard recursion as its main source of card advantage. morgue burst should find its way to you, and bloodpyre elemental is actually good when you're packing death denied or urborg uprising or any number of other raise dead effects. Ghitu slinger makes multiple appearances. Woe to the aggro player trying to get around your bogardan firefiend, etc.
Enchantments matter/voltron: commune with the gods finds the other piece of your "combo" of (hexproof creature) + (something to put on hexproof creature) while also potentially feeding auramancer/griffin dreamfinder.
BW Artifacts matter: Very high risk and high reward; many of the cards are outright unplayable if the deck doesn't come together. cranial plating, bleak coven vampires, sanctum gargoyle. Miscellaneous borderline artifacts like horned helm.
I also run quite a few cards that are only playable in aggro or only playable in control, but it seems like you guys are talking about more specific decks than those broad terms describe.
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More often than you think, or at least some iteration of it. It honestly comes down to having only 3-4 of the cards together at once, and let the synergies really go to work.
For example, one player in my draft was rocking Undertaker, Basking Rootwalla, and Disturbed Burial. Just those 3 cards alone you can get SO much leverage out of thanks to the Madness.
Another one of my buddies had Grisly Salvage paired with Werebear in a BUG deck, popping insane Flaskbacks like Moment's Peace or Think Twice really gave him a nice shell, and a 4/4.
But yeah, it's hard to really make out what the "ideal" deck would be at the moment, it needs a bit more testing on my end. For me though, it was really about the card synergy, but I see what you're saying about how you need the right card selection otherwise you might end up with a durdly deck - I definitely took that into account when making these choices. Two cards I REALLY wanted; Dregscape Zombie and Viscera Dragger honestly just couldn't make the cut since they really lacked in other archetypes (In this case, it would have been something like Black Aggro or Midrange) over something like Vampire Interloper. Thankfully so far though, the cards I added are pretty solid picks in other types of decks. The only ones that were kind of iffy were Putrid Imp, and Stinkweed Imp - but they haven't been BAD so far. Putrid is at least interesting in other decks as a T1 play, and Stinkweed is always a pseduo removal that can come back, so I'm not complaining.
Sorry about the rant too, I just thought I should try to explain my thought process on adding them in, but like I said so far they're often picked up pretty quick in drafts, especially if you can get 2-3 other core cards to help create that Dredgy, graveyard oriented deck.
I was thinking about them earlier, does Pauper have the card support for a steal and sac themed archetype in RB via Act of Treason and Fling/Carrion Feeder, for example? I know we don't get Barrage of Expendables or Goblin Bombardment unfortunately, but something to kind of stand in for that might be all that archetype needs to be a strong aggro archetype with a kind of synergy flair. And for UR, can Spells Matter be a proper archetype yet? We have Kiln Fiend, Wee Dragonauts, Nivix Cyclops, Goblin Electromancer and play a high density of good spells in U and R - even without a spells matter theme. I think that will be something that I will try to test more, especially if I move from 360 cards to anything more (though maybe those should just be my 3 UR cards and see what happens).
Omnath: he's on PCP
RW Redirection
My 360 Pauper Cube
It's definitely a good card, but I don't think good enough to really take anything out at the moment :/
The UR Spells Archetype is certainly doable as there are already a higher number of powerful spells in these colors, so all it takes is the creatures that benefit from spells, which are all at least playable if not already cubable. There are creatures that benefit from casting spells: Kiln Fiend, Wee Dragonauts, Nivix Cyclops, Prescient Chimera, and creatures that benefit from having spells: Delver of Secrets, Goblin Electromancer, Archaeomancer, Izzet Chronarch, Anarchist, Scrivener.
Where this gets interesting is how you shift your spells a bit to further support this archetype. Say you start with some double strike spells like Double Cleave to make bigger damaging turns with a Kiln Fiend. Suddenly, you have a mono red direction available with pumping creatures and doing huge bursts of damage (think Scorchwalker Bloodrush + Double Cleave or Immolating Souleater + Double Cleave). With ways to pump creatures, effects that use power for damage are now much better: Fall of the Hammer, Soul's Fire, Fling. These first two cards work well in Green decks too, but the last card works with Black.
Now, for the RB Sacrifice archetype, you can put in more sacrifice effects in Black that are just on the cusp of being cubeable normally: Carrion Feeder, Viscera Seer, Bloodthrone Vampire, Dimir House Guard. You can put more creatures in Black that sacrifice well, like Festering Goblin, Dregscape Zombie, Butcher Ghoul, and Viscera Dragger, or you can just increase ways to return creatures that die, like Grim Harvest, Unearth, Tortured Existence, Death Denied, Breath of Life, and Angelic Renewal. As you can see from the last two, White gives you ways to extend the sacrifice theme as well: Doomed Traveler, Loyal Cathar, Elder Cathar, Thraben Sentry, Raise the Alarm. Continuing with tokens to sacrifice leads into Green with Scatter the Seeds and Sproutswarm, or back into Red with Dragon Fodder and Mogg War Marshal. This is the best aspect of the Sacrifice archetype. With just a touch of token production, BW, BG, or BR Sacrifice can work.
Seconded. Don't forget Mnemic Wall either. It's a really solid shell, even without the Cyclops. It's pretty much the only reason why I keep Delver in nowadays.
ntDars, I am playing Mnemonic Wall and Archaeomancer currently so it will be good to support the wall with the actual archetype, hah. Thanks!
Omnath: he's on PCP
RW Redirection
My 360 Pauper Cube
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/6552
Heh, it's quite similar to my cube (around 80% overlap, according to cubetutor). From a brief glance over it, I'm wondering why you don't include the following cards, which are solid:
especially when you include other cards that either synergize really well (such as other green aggro cards in the case of Wild Nacatl or Aetherflame Wall and Wall of Heat in the case of Rukh Egg) or cards with very similar function (like Mnemonic Wall and Izzet Chronarch in the case of Archaeomancer).
The similarity between our cubes isn't a coincidence. When making the most recent round of updates, I used your cube, the "Evaluate Everything" project,, and the following two when considering cards I wasn't running: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/582 and http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/2190. My 420 list was based off of Lanxal's and Styborski's, but I think the cubes people have listed on this website are better constructed than Styborski's, so I've gravitated toward using other people's lists when designing my own. I hope you don't mind the plagiarism!
Concerning the cards you listed:
Archaeomancer: This one probably needs to go in, especially with the number of instants/sorceries I'm running in my blue section. Potential cuts out of the four-drop slot to make way include Elgaud Shieldmate and Makeshift Mauler. Not sure which way approach this, right now.
Perilous Shadow: This one's interesting--definitely a card that's bad in constructed but can be a potential finisher in limited. I didn't consider it originally because I considered it too mana-intensive (four mana for a wall that costs two more mana to pump) but it's nearly unkillable and I can see it being used as a finisher in a grindy control deck. What types of decks use this guy, and am I right in guessing he's mostly a finisher (i.e, he costs 4 mana to cast, but you want to have a lot more mana than that available in the end-game to make use of him)?
Marauding Maulhorn: I'm still not 100% sold on this one. I can see that he's definitely cubeable, but I feel like Gathan Raiders may be a little bit more versatile than the all-in aggro strategy this guy plays into. I can see myself adding him at some point, though.
Rukh Egg: I'm really considering adding this one. When you think of it as a 3-toughness wall that turns into a 4/4 that can still be a wall if you want, it looks a lot better, maybe even better than Wall of Heat. It's in the 4-drop slot, though, so finding something to cut may be tricky. Possibly Lava Burst?
Wild Nacatl: This one is a personal design choice. I don't think Wild Nacatl should go in a cube's Green section, since it's only played in the context of GR, GW, and (less often in pauper) Naya decks. That said, it could just as easily go in a Gruul section or a Selesnya section, or even in a Naya section if you wanted three-color sections for your cube (which I don't). Since figuring out where to put him is so confusing, I've just kept him out of my cube for now.
Heh, I'm flattered. I started with Styborski's list too (a few years ago), and it's gone through a ton of changes since then. I have to give a lot of credit to Al's Evaluate Everything project, though; it's probably the singly most useful pauper cube resource out there right now.
Perilous Shadow - I think this card's pretty easy to underrate, but it's been surprisingly good in midrange, control, and ramp decks (pretty much every non-aggro black deck) for me. It easily dominates grindy games, it's basically immune to burn, and 4+ toughness means it can help stabilize against aggro decks relatively easily while being good against midrange as well. You're right that it's a bit mana-intensive turn 4, but assuming it isn't dealt with quickly it can really easily get out of hand.
Rukh Egg - I think it's probably the best red control creature. You either keep blocking or you get a huge threat that ends the game quickly. I've even bolted my own Rukh Egg before. It plays both a defensive role and a finisher role well for red control decks. Not sure what I'd cut for it; all of the red X spells are really good. Maybe Hissing Iguanar?
Archaeomancer - I'd definitely include this over Elgaud Shieldmate. Spell recursion in any blue deck is just incredibly strong in a format like this where cards don't usually get multiple uses (we don't have many good reanimation spells, spells with flashback, etc.). Elgaud Shieldmate's a really interesting card but it has a high likelihood of doing pretty much nothing; I'm trying out some other cards in its place right now. Makeshift Mauler is just a really efficient creature that's at least decent most of the time in most blue decks, which makes it rank a bit higher than Elgaud Shieldmate for me.
Marauding Maulhorn - Yeah, it's not on quite the same level as the other cards I listed, but a 5/3 for 4 mana backed up with removal in hand ends the game incredibly quickly and even without removal backup, it isn't easy to block profitably. I mainly listed it earlier because you don't have that many 4 drop creatures, so it might be worth considering. Red has a lot of okay 2-3 CMC creatures but comparably few decent 4 CMC aggro creatures, which are really important to help aggro decks finish out the game. Not too sure how it compares to Gathan Raiders; I cut all morph from my cube a really long time ago.
EDH Decks:
BWR Alesha, Who Smiles at Death BWR
BUG Tasigur, the Golden Fang BUG
BRU Mishra, Artificer Prodigy BRU
R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage R
U Hakim, Loreweaver U
Welcome! I don't have that much to add on topics other than what Runner covered; I think answering the archetypes question is important in order for anyone here to give feedback more detailed or broader than questions about individual cards.
White's enchantments as removal suite alone might be enough to make it worth it, but even then it's still usually worse than Hyena Umbra. I'm pretty sure I played it even before I added a dedicated auras theme to my cube and it wasn't fantastic, but it wasn't terrible either.
Not really convinced about Ghostly Flicker ... sure the best case scenario is awesome, but most of the time I think getting anything close to that best case is pretty unrealistic, especially at 450 cards. And when you don't get the flicker deck together consistently (we don't have much flicker support in the first place), the actual flicker cards are just super situational. Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall are definitely both worth playing regardless, though.
I'm partial to Harvest Gwyllion. Part of that might just be that I really like wither as a mechanic. Shrieking Grotesque is certainly also fine.
I think they're probably around the same level in terms of "cubeability." Shield of the Oversoul can be a huge bomb for midrange green decks, even without an auras theme. If you're a fan of combat tricks, Thrill of the Hunt is one of the better ones available. It's really just a pity that some of the other guilds aren't nearly as stacked as G/W.
Yeah, I'll disagree here. Phyrexian War Beast is fantastic in aggro decks, where there really isn't much of a downside unless you're so short on lands that you're probably going to lose anyway regardless of whether you put this card or some other aggro card in your deck.
Runner: Holy COW! Thanks for posting such a detailed "cube review." I'm pretty new to cubing and seeing the thought process behind card evaluation explained like that helps a newbie like me learn how to select cards when designing my own. I'd love to see more of those sometime. On that note, I went looking for a replacement for Unmake in the Orzhov section and saw some people running Harvest Gwyllion. What do you think of it?
I'm honestly thinking of getting rid of Silent Departure for Flicker. There is so much bounce in Blue for me already that is picked up much quicker, and usually at Instant speed. If you're building a tempo based deck, I pretty much never pick up Departure. Even people that play a more control oriented draft I usually never see run Departure.
Usually my Blue tempo shells end up being a mix of Man o War, Ninja of Deep Hours, Mist Raven, Curfew and Waterfront Bouncer - along with a whole other slew of support spells. Flicker in that kind of shell seems a lot more potent than Departure IMO, but that might just be my meta.
Edit; I'll also usually have a Capsize lockdown before I even have to worry about flashing back Departure.
Thanks for the warm welcome!
I think this immediately touches on the biggest problem with my cube: finding people to play it. I often play 1v1 sealed which is the majority of my play-testing. If I do draft it, I usually do a four person draft. I have done a few six person drafts but that doesn't happen as often as I would like. One of my goals for archetypes is to have a strong aggro theme. Aggro has always been my favorite way to play but I would like to accommodate other play styles into my cube. Some archetypes I find particularly strong in my cube (or at least what I like to draft) are U/B unblockable/tempo, U/R tempo, G/R aggro, Naya aggro, G/W ramp, and G/W/b hexproof. I have really only got my feet wet with the hexproof/aura archetype. I have not fully embraced auras/voltron and I am curious to know what it is like for those who fully committed to it. I don't want it to get over-drafted and dominating so I have kept it to a minimum to keep a balance. I guess I have a couple pet cards. I'm a huge fan of Zhur-Taa Druid because it does everything it's deck wants! It gets in those few points of damage like Goblin Fireslinger, which is a card I used to play in RDW standard, and llanowar elves which I also love because I play elves in modern and it's powerful ramp. I am also partial to [card]Looter il-Kor
[/card] as he does so much work.
Ethereal Armor is on the bubble right now. Are there enough other auras to make it/hexproof auras really powerful? Are the other auras worth it? Wingsteed Rider has been in and out of my cube for the same reason. I am still not sure I should fully commit to auras. I actually agree with the token producers being kind of weak here. They are really just cards I added early in the cube and they have just kind of stuck around since. Since I am not anxious to play Marshaling cry, maybe I should consider opening slots for more aura based cards.
I like Dream Cache but I was actually going to replace it with Serum Visions. It's only a matter of finding one since modern is making things silly. I'm going to be honest, I kinda just breezed over Ghostly Flicker the first time I saw it and I never really considered it. It's a great suggestion so I'll try to find a spot for it. I have never been super impressed with cards like Spire Monitor but I might give it a try.
Highborn Ghoul is in there for my U/B unblockable archetype but they don't really need it. It's really just there because I couldn't thing of much better options. I also agree with Skinthinner being fairly weak so maybe I'll exchange it for on of your mentioned black control cards. Skulking Ghost might actually be a pseudo pet card of mine. I love its art and flavor and I would consider it almost a second Nezumi Cutthroat since it dies to almost the exact same things and is almost as good at getting damage in. I also agree that Disease Carrier and Driver of the Dead are fairly weak and I am not really interested in a sac theme so I will probably cut them for the cards you suggested. I haven't personally had the opportunity to play with Syphon Life yet but I will keep what you said in mind.
I agree with you on Hissing Iguanar since I haven't been impressed with it myself. The goblin token producers I feel have more use than the white ones. They have synergy with Sparksmith and I also run dynacharge which I do believe you missed. Do you have any good suggestions for extra fireballs? Magma Burst seems overcosted, is it worth its cost?
My playstyle is showing . As I mentioned before, I am an aggro player so I look at red as THE aggro colour hence why I didn't leave much room for control. I have, however, been interested in adding more big red stompy guys in my cube so I'll consider your suggestions.
I have felt sketchy about peddler as well. Aura Gnarlid is a good suggestion, especially if I decide to commit to auras. Maybe I'll make that switch. I'll consider borderland ranger but I have always found cards with that effect fairly boring. Funny thing about Utopia Sprawl, I've been meaning to put the card in for some time but the site I buy from is sold out and I haven't searched my LGS for it yet.
I like that take on multicolor, maybe I'll try out removing the removal. I used to play mystical teachings but I think there are too many good Dimir cards that are superior. Shadow Guildmage is interesting for sure, maybe I'll try it. In regards to the Sheild of the Oversoul, I've been blown out by that card and I feel like it deserves its spot.
I believe I am one of those many . Thanks a lot for your suggestions, I appreciate the detailed response!
EDH Decks:
BWR Alesha, Who Smiles at Death BWR
BUG Tasigur, the Golden Fang BUG
BRU Mishra, Artificer Prodigy BRU
R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage R
U Hakim, Loreweaver U
Gasp, switching out Rebels you say???
Oversoul is better in green for sure but I like it in the Selesnya slot since white can utilize it as well. Also centaur healer with the shield is bonkers!
EDH Decks:
BWR Alesha, Who Smiles at Death BWR
BUG Tasigur, the Golden Fang BUG
BRU Mishra, Artificer Prodigy BRU
R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage R
U Hakim, Loreweaver U