Ultimately a cantrip is only as good as the card it can fetch it draw, so if it's fetching fair cards then it should be fine.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
My experiences with my cube have been pretty slow, I've lost to myself via decking before. Turns out Wall Of Kelp is a good card, but not without enough win conditions lol.
Ultimately a cantrip is only as good as the card it can fetch it draw, so if it's fetching fair cards then it should be fine.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
My experiences with my cube have been pretty slow, I've lost to myself via decking before. Turns out Wall Of Kelp is a good card, but not without enough win conditions lol.
Teaching is another of these cards that are really good in constructed, because it creates a toolbox, where you can play a lot of 1-off situational cards and guarantee them at the right time. In limited your answers are usually not that wide spread and you are simply adding 4 cmc to any interchangeable removal spell. I think without the flashback it's actually pretty unplayable and even if you are UB it's far from broken. Don't confuse constructed with limited powerlevel.
To be fair, you've said this about Duress (and Mesmeric Fiend I think too).
So this is the attitude that I complain about.
Either it utterly breaks the game and it's good.
Or it's just a normal card and therefore unplayable trash.
See: Fogs that aren't as good as Prismatic Strands, 3 mana black Pacifism, Duress, Mesmeric Fiend, Mystical Teachings, etc.
Second EDIT: I disagree with your evaluation of the differences between constructed and limited. Cards don't get special errata for when they're played in a cube, they still function the same.
If you draft both Guardian of the Guildoact and Pestilence it still works the same. Ghostly Flicker still loops with Mnemonic Wall.
Likewise a Duress can still nab a counterspell or something like Rancor just like it would in my constructed MBC deck.
So Mystical Teachings can still cheat and fetch you a powerful spell. I'm not sure what the difference is. Sure, it's not going to find Tron support cards in my cube, but it's going to find a Doom Blade in an environment where a Doom Blade is a top tier spell.
OK, it's cool that you like Mystical Teachings for your Cube, I encourage you to try it out. But in the normal Pauper Cube environment, he's absolutely right. Heck, I'm not convinced that Teachings is actually all that strong in your Cube. It's OK that you care about things other than flat power level, but you also have to acknowledge that a lot of the conversation here is going to consider the Cube's high power level and that you're kind of the outlier. You can and should try Teachings. Frankly, I do suspect you will be disappointed. But in terms of general users who care about kind of "default" Cube power level more than you do, the cards that you listed are all pretty bad. I would not seriously consider running any of them in my Cube. This is partially because I have run them before and found that they were, in fact, entirely unplayable in my (seemingly fairly normal) normal Pauper Cube environment. You have an idiosyncratic Cube, and that's great, you should get help for it when you need it, but you also need to recognize that most conversation here is is not talking about your idiosyncratic Cube.
Here's a question for you: What makes Teachings any better than Merchant Scroll for you? It can search for more stuff, but is it worth costing literally twice as much? I don't think so, personally, and I would also not play Merchant Scroll in my Cube.
OK, it's cool that you like Mystical Teachings for your Cube, I encourage you to try it out. But in the normal Pauper Cube environment, he's absolutely right. Heck, I'm not convinced that Teachings is actually all that strong in your Cube. It's OK that you care about things other than flat power level, but you also have to acknowledge that a lot of the conversation here is going to consider the Cube's high power level and that you're kind of the outlier. You can and should try Teachings. Frankly, I do suspect you will be disappointed. But in terms of general users who care about kind of "default" Cube power level more than you do, the cards that you listed are all pretty bad. I would not seriously consider running any of them in my Cube. This is partially because I have run them before and found that they were, in fact, entirely unplayable in my (seemingly fairly normal) normal Pauper Cube environment. You have an idiosyncratic Cube, and that's great, you should get help for it when you need it, but you also need to recognize that most conversation here is is not talking about your idiosyncratic Cube.
I'm not sure why Teachings is bad.
In limited games tend to be slower, so spending 4 mana to fetch is tenable. It gets you anything you need.
If it can fetch one a Moment's Peace or Flicker in constructed Tron, why is is magically worse when it's fetching you a Doom Blade or Counterspell in a toned down environment?
Play with the card. Maybe you'll see. Maybe you won't, because your Cube is kind of weird and seems deliberately slower than a normal Pauper cube. I don't even think you've made it slow enough for Teachings to be good, but you won't know until you try. Nobody is trying to stop you from running it. Limited games in the normal Pauper Cube environment aren't anywhere near slow enough to spend four mana searching for a single card, especially when the variety of effects in Cube tend to be lower than there are in other limited formats or Constructed.
Pauper Cube gets a lot of its power by consisting almost entirely of effects that people actually play in Limited. This means that there are a lot of versions of cards that basically do the same thing as other cards. This means that a random draw is going to be better than a random draw in other formats, so if you're going to spend a lot of mana to not impact the board, the difference between a random draw and a tutor is not anywhere near as high as it used to be. This is (part) of the reason that I feel like Hieroglyphic Illumination is good enough when Teachings is not- I would rather just draw two than tutor for an Instant most of the time. In constructed, you also get to choose your targets from the history of Magic, and not from a smattering of random cards that the Cube's owner decided to include and that you managed to draft.
Oh, and I would definitely consider your "slower format" feelings unique to your Cube. I know that I am deliberately second-guessing every two-drop that I add to my Cube because the natural trend of powered Pauper cubes is towards aggro. Games get fast unless you take proactive measures to get them under control.
Or it's just a normal card and therefore unplayable trash.
Not at all, but you exaggerate everything. You call every card, that is potentially good a bomb.
Also Doom Blade doesn't break the game and when I'm saying, that a Rend Flesh is often better than paying 4 to tutor for Doom Blade, I'm not calling Teachings trash.
I disagree with your evaluation of the differences between constructed and limited. Cards don't get special errata for when they're played in a cube, they still function the same.
If you draft both Guardian of the Guildoact and Pestilence it still works the same. Ghostly Flicker still loops with Mnemonic Wall.
Likewise a Duress can still nab a counterspell or something like Rancor just like it would in my constructed MBC deck.
So Mystical Teachings can still cheat and fetch you a powerful spell. I'm not sure what the difference is. Sure, it's not going to find Tron support cards in my cube, but it's going to find a Doom Blade in an environment where a Doom Blade is a top tier spell.
Let's take Delver of Secrets for example. This card is super popular pauper constructed as well as legacy. If constructed would be the same as limited by your logic this would be way too strong for your cube, but you play it anyway? Why is that? Because it's significantly worse in limited. Your deck isn't just 4 Delver and the rest spells to flip it. Teachings simply can not tutor anything, but only instants and in a few cases a flash creature. The thing is, that many instants in limited, and also in your cube, are redundant.
I'm not saying Teachings is bad in UB and probably a good card for that guild slot in your cube, because it makes the Splice deck more consistent, but Teaching will probably not make the cut in a nonblack deck.
its wasted time to argue about powerlevel or cards in general with salt since he a) wont listen anyway and b) evaluates cards based on whatever, but not normal magic.
his posts are also pretty interchangeable and pretty much consist of the same phrases everytime.
Or it's just a normal card and therefore unplayable trash.
Not at all, but you exaggerate everything. You call every card, that is potentially good a bomb.
Also Doom Blade doesn't break the game and when I'm saying, that a Rend Flesh is often better than paying 4 to tutor for Doom Blade, I'm not calling Teachings trash.
I disagree with your evaluation of the differences between constructed and limited. Cards don't get special errata for when they're played in a cube, they still function the same.
If you draft both Guardian of the Guildoact and Pestilence it still works the same. Ghostly Flicker still loops with Mnemonic Wall.
Likewise a Duress can still nab a counterspell or something like Rancor just like it would in my constructed MBC deck.
So Mystical Teachings can still cheat and fetch you a powerful spell. I'm not sure what the difference is. Sure, it's not going to find Tron support cards in my cube, but it's going to find a Doom Blade in an environment where a Doom Blade is a top tier spell.
Let's take Delver of Secrets for example. This card is super popular pauper constructed as well as legacy. If constructed would be the same as limited by your logic this would be way too strong for your cube, but you play it anyway? Why is that? Because it's significantly worse in limited. Your deck isn't just 4 Delver and the rest spells to flip it. Teachings simply can not tutor anything, but only instants and in a few cases a flash creature. The thing is, that many instants in limited, and also in your cube, are redundant.
I'm not saying Teachings is bad in UB and probably a good card for that guild slot in your cube, because it makes the Splice deck more consistent, but Teaching will probably not make the cut in a nonblack deck.
I never said that Doom Blade is a bomb. But in a cube without Bombs (I can't recall if any are in my cube anymore, I don't think there are besides the 5 monarch cards I guess), all you're left with is READ, and therefore a spell like Doom Blade is top tier.
Delver is an exception. Delver only works when you build an entire deck around him, so you actually have to earn getting use out of him in cube. However, tutoring for a removal spell or countermagic just seems always decent. Many cards or many interactions between cards are going to be good regardless of whether or not they're constructed or drafted. To use a tautology, a Lightning Bolt is still a Lightning Bolt in cube.
A bit of an aside, but I do think that Delver in constructed Pauper being borderline OP is good for the format, or at least was before Foil pushed the deck over the top. I know that's a bit of a weird opinion, but midrange/tempo decks tend to neither kill you on turn 3 or lock you out of the game on turn 5, so actual Magic tends to be played when they're involved.
Additionally, it's only Flicker that I don't have in my cube because of how disgusting it is in constructed Pauper. I'm a-okay with Guardian of the Guildpact and Pestilence and Coalition Honor Guard and Sprout Swarm in constructed Pauper, but in a limited Pauper environment they tend to be dominant (even in a powered cube).
Why is single-use Teachings bad, but Fierce Empath or Heliod's Pilgrim or Goblin Matron not bad? Do you consider these to be bad cards too?
@Waymarsh. Can you post a link to your cube? I'm interested in drafting it but I can't force desktop view on my Windows Phone in order to see your signature.
BREAD is a guideline not stone cold fact. Not every removal is is worse than a bomb or vice versa same is true for everything else. Just like with cube drafting also depens on what you already drafted less of a vacuum.
However, tutoring for a removal spell or countermagic just seems always decent.
In slower cubes such as yours that might be the case in my first pauper cube teachings was ok not great but card inclusion 22-23 most of the time if the games go faster however spending 2 turns or a significant amount of mana to 2 for 1 yourself isn't that great.
Many cards or many interactions between cards are going to be good regardless of whether or not they're constructed or drafted.
Yes but many is not all like you said a lightning bolt is still a lightning bolt but stuff like combat tricks are usually stronger in limited while stuff that require more stuff to get going tend to be weaker in limited e.g. slivers.
Why is single-use Teachings bad, but Fierce Empath or Heliod's Pilgrim or Goblin Matron not bad? Do you consider these to be bad cards too?
Like I said it depends on the cube I personally don't find Matron that good in your cube even if it is a slower one as its 3 mana for a 1/1 that gets you best case scenario a beetleback chief which is okay but most other things you can get reqire a very limited very specific board to be useful. I am actually thinking about cutting Pilgrim im my cube for the same reason and that has more universal stuff to look for.
And even then with sthe single use of Matron,Pilgrim and empath you still leave an (abeit small) body behind while also beeing cheaper.
I would actually play Teachings in your cube, but in faster cubes and comboless cubes I wouldn't.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/65918. Remember that it's a work in progress, although between some token-makers (Dragon Fodder, Krenko's Command, Goblin Instigator, Gather the Townsfolk), Blue constructed cards that are probably too slow but I want to try (Gush, Foil), an extra counterspell or two (I think at least one Remove Soul, haven't decided past that), and the Cloudpost package (I'm thinking 4 plus Ancient Stirrings?), it's filling out nicely.
The only one of the cards that you listed that I play is Heliod's Pilgrim, which is on the weak side. All of them have two advantages over Teachings: They actually effect the board, and they cost 3 mana instead of 4. It's not much, but a 1/1 can be relevant for sacrifice or swarm themes and a 1/2 is actually close to an actual body. Fierce Empath gets something specialized that a lot of decks want, but in fairly low numbers. So it smooths over a strategy. Goblin Matron I agree is quite bad. The payoffs just aren't there. Even in your Cube I don't actually know what it's getting (other than Beetleback Chief) that is better than a number of cards with ETB effects. This is also part of the reason I think Goblin Grappler is such a natural addition for you. Pilgrim is the only one that I do play. It gets a lot of mileage by giving library manipulation to a color that is almost defined by not having it. It can also tutor for different things at different stages of the game; you can get an Empyrial Armor when it's time to beat down, or a Pacifism when it's time to find an answer. The decks that want Teachings, on the other hand, are pretty much limited to finding defensive spells. Those are good, but there's just not the same versatility. Also, the difference between 3 and 4 mana is pretty huge, especially when there's a chance that you'll want to search for a card and play the card in the same turn.
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http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/65918. Remember that it's a work in progress, although between some token-makers (Dragon Fodder, Krenko's Command, Goblin Instigator, Gather the Townsfolk), Blue constructed cards that are probably too slow but I want to try (Gush, Foil), an extra counterspell or two (I think at least one Remove Soul, haven't decided past that), and the Cloudpost package (I'm thinking 4 plus Ancient Stirrings?), it's filling out nicely.
The only one of the cards that you listed that I play is Heliod's Pilgrim, which is on the weak side. All of them have two advantages over Teachings: They actually effect the board, and they cost 3 mana instead of 4. It's not much, but a 1/1 can be relevant for sacrifice or swarm themes and a 1/2 is actually close to an actual body. Fierce Empath gets something specialized that a lot of decks want, but in fairly low numbers. So it smooths over a strategy. Goblin Matron I agree is quite bad. The payoffs just aren't there. Even in your Cube I don't actually know what it's getting (other than Beetleback Chief) that is better than a number of cards with ETB effects. This is also part of the reason I think Goblin Grappler is such a natural addition for you. Pilgrim is the only one that I do play. It gets a lot of mileage by giving library manipulation to a color that is almost defined by not having it. It can also tutor for different things at different stages of the game; you can get an Empyrial Armor when it's time to beat down, or a Pacifism when it's time to find an answer. The decks that want Teachings, on the other hand, are pretty much limited to finding defensive spells. Those are good, but there's just not the same versatility. Also, the difference between 3 and 4 mana is pretty huge, especially when there's a chance that you'll want to search for a card and play the card in the same turn.
I drafted your cube and left comments with the deck I made from it. Seems fine so far.
I'm not sure if 4 Cloudposts, 4 Glimmerposts is enough. That's roughly 2% of the whole cube, with an 80% chance of finding one in your entire starting 45. Maybe bump that to finding 1.5 every 45? Idk. Especially if you're not firing with all 10 people most of the time.
It depends on whether you want it to be an every draft thing, or are okay with it happening occasionally.
But Teachings is Instant speed though, so you can cast it end of opponent's turn and play the card immediately after.
I'm not sure what numbers you're expecting, exactly. At 1.5 per 45 that would be 10 copies (I'm not running any Glimmerposts currently, I'm not really sold on them as an addition since Cloudpost is the one doing all the work), which seems like it would make the deck absurd unless everyone was drafting it. I would much rather have the deck be a thing that people can sometimes run that gives the Cube some texture rather than THE defining feature of my Cube. I think at the point where I need to run too many more than 4x Cloudpost and some enablers (there are a couple I'm not running that I could be convinced to run, like Expedition Map, it's not worth it. The idea is to get to a point where there will be about 3 in the average draft pool. People have to want to make it work, but they can make it work at that point.
The fact that Teachings is an instant doesn't evaporate its cost. You still need to pay 4 mana to find something, plus whatever you spend to cast it. Spreading it out over two turns helps, but it doesn't solve the problem.
I really don't understand why you're continuing this conversation. I love Mystical Teachings, have played the card before, play decks in other formats specifically because they let me play the card, and still cut it years ago when the Cube was much weaker than it is now because it was just too slow and low-impact for what was going on in the format. You want to run the card, and that's great! It might even be good for you, it does work with some of your themes. At least I, and I believe many of us, have played Teachings before and cut it in an environment that is crafted to be very different from yours. The only thing that could push this forward is you playing with the card in your more idioscyncratic format, since that is the only unknown variable here. But at this point most of your comments just reflect that you haven't played with the card yet. I just don't even know what you're trying to accomplish.
I run teachings in my T2 and its fine. But I support a draw-go style control archetype with Flashcreatures and it can tutor combopieces for Blink.
The tutorcreatures are all pretty bad, unless youre meta is not only slow, but ultraslow (like no 2-drops at all). That said, I drafted 2 pretty fast aggrodecks from salts cube and im pretty sure at this point he never actually played it, at least not with some experienced drafter.
Pilgrim is fine to fetch for Presence of Gond combo, otherwise Totem-Guide Hartebeest is the superior card
I'm not sure what numbers you're expecting, exactly. At 1.5 per 45 that would be 10 copies (I'm not running any Glimmerposts currently, I'm not really sold on them as an addition since Cloudpost is the one doing all the work), which seems like it would make the deck absurd unless everyone was drafting it. I would much rather have the deck be a thing that people can sometimes run that gives the Cube some texture rather than THE defining feature of my Cube. I think at the point where I need to run too many more than 4x Cloudpost and some enablers (there are a couple I'm not running that I could be convinced to run, like Expedition Map, it's not worth it. The idea is to get to a point where there will be about 3 in the average draft pool. People have to want to make it work, but they can make it work at that point.
The fact that Teachings is an instant doesn't evaporate its cost. You still need to pay 4 mana to find something, plus whatever you spend to cast it. Spreading it out over two turns helps, but it doesn't solve the problem.
I really don't understand why you're continuing this conversation. I love Mystical Teachings, have played the card before, play decks in other formats specifically because they let me play the card, and still cut it years ago when the Cube was much weaker than it is now because it was just too slow and low-impact for what was going on in the format. You want to run the card, and that's great! It might even be good for you, it does work with some of your themes. At least I, and I believe many of us, have played Teachings before and cut it in an environment that is crafted to be very different from yours. The only thing that could push this forward is you playing with the card in your more idioscyncratic format, since that is the only unknown variable here. But at this point most of your comments just reflect that you haven't played with the card yet. I just don't even know what you're trying to accomplish.
I don't see a reason to draft Cloudpost over say, an off color bounceland then.
I've played the posts singleton in my cube (before it was pointed out to me that only Cloudpost gives you extra mana, not Glimmerpost). Even when you got to draft both, and had both in your deck all it did was give you a little extra colorless mana sometimes.
So I feel that at half draft, you're not going to find these enough to make them worth it. But at full draft, maybe four is a little less worse?
Even then, let's say at 10 players one player gets all 4 Cloudposts. If the average game only goes through the top 20 cards (I don't know any actual numbers, just seems reasonable), on average they're equal to running off-color bouncelands because they'll tap for 2.
Maybe an ASFAN of 1.5 per 45 (.5 per pack) is too high, I'm just spitballing. But maybe throw in 4 Glimmerpost? They have synergy with bounce lands.
If you ran more of them, they'd be more desirable by more players and it may even out. I just don't see a compelling reason to play hungry hungry hippos with the playset of 8post in the cube if there are only 4 of them.
I've only drafted my cube at the maximum amount of players a handful of times, most of my drafts are at 4 players.
I'm interested in this discussion about the Posts/Tron because I actually like the Tron lands themselves, just not the broken things you can do with them. The 'set completion' mechanic is real cool (I genuinely enjoy Monopoly) and having it be colorless mana makes your mana base an interesting puzzle. If all anyone did with them was play fatties and Self-Assemblers then I wouldn't hate Tron.
So any talk of incorporating Tron/EZTron into a cube is interesting to me.
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I don't know why I'm still arguing about Teachings. We're both in agreement that it's okay or likely okay (In my cube). Sorry.
The appropriate number of cards is an interesting question. The bounceland comparison is interesting, but feels off to me. Bouncelands aren't good because they're ramp spells, because they're not. They only increase your overall mana production by one, and do it at the same rate as playing a land each turn. They're good because they provide a form of card advantage (3 mana for 2 lands instead of 3) and fix your mana. Cloudpost, on the other hand, is actually a ramp card- two copies will give you 4 mana overall, more quickly than you'd get it by playing lands each turn.
Glimmerpost just feels bad to me. You only need two Locus for Cloudpost to provide an effect the Cube would absolutely run- tapping a land for 2 mana is extremely powerful. Glimmerpost doesn't do anything that feels worth it until you're at 4 or higher- it's not like we play Radiant Fountain. If I wanted to bump my Locus count, I might run 1, but I'd be more tempted to just run another Cloudpost so that people only have to keep their eyes open for one card. Really, at that point space becomes the bigger and bigger problem, though. I think where it's at right now, Post is probably not super strong as a singular strategy, but is a good way to support mana ramp. So I guess it's not really "hungry hungry hippos," because I doubt everyone will want them, but it does the work of a standard niche strategy. I think the big question is "how many Cloudposts do you need to consistently get 2 or more in play?" Then I think that number becomes the target for how many would appear in a typical 8-person draft. I guess the idea of picking up some extra mana may appeal to more people than I think, but I have to imagine other, better cards keep people from picking them all that highly unless they're actively looking for them. Hrm. I probably just have to play a bit to see what works for people, but I'm curious how many Posts seem necessary for a deck to run before they become desirable.
I'm hesitant to run Expedition Map, Reap and Sow, and Crop Rotation because I kind of doubt anyone would play those cards for any reason other than searching for Cloudposts, at which point they just feel like bad Cloudposts. Does that seem right?
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The appropriate number of cards is an interesting question. The bounceland comparison is interesting, but feels off to me. Bouncelands aren't good because they're ramp spells, because they're not. They only increase your overall mana production by one, and do it at the same rate as playing a land each turn. They're good because they provide a form of card advantage (3 mana for 2 lands instead of 3) and fix your mana. Cloudpost, on the other hand, is actually a ramp card- two copies will give you 4 mana overall, more quickly than you'd get it by playing lands each turn.
Glimmerpost just feels bad to me. You only need two Locus for Cloudpost to provide an effect the Cube would absolutely run- tapping a land for 2 mana is extremely powerful. Glimmerpost doesn't do anything that feels worth it until you're at 4 or higher- it's not like we play Radiant Fountain. If I wanted to bump my Locus count, I might run 1, but I'd be more tempted to just run another Cloudpost so that people only have to keep their eyes open for one card. Really, at that point space becomes the bigger and bigger problem, though. I think where it's at right now, Post is probably not super strong as a singular strategy, but is a good way to support mana ramp. So I guess it's not really "hungry hungry hippos," because I doubt everyone will want them, but it does the work of a standard niche strategy. I think the big question is "how many Cloudposts do you need to consistently get 2 or more in play?" Then I think that number becomes the target for how many would appear in a typical 8-person draft. I guess the idea of picking up some extra mana may appeal to more people than I think, but I have to imagine other, better cards keep people from picking them all that highly unless they're actively looking for them. Hrm. I probably just have to play a bit to see what works for people, but I'm curious how many Posts seem necessary for a deck to run before they become desirable.
I'm hesitant to run Expedition Map, Reap and Sow, and Crop Rotation because I kind of doubt anyone would play those cards for any reason other than searching for Cloudposts, at which point they just feel like bad Cloudposts. Does that seem right?
On your last paragraph, yes. I wouldn't run expedition map just to find a 2nd or possibly 3rd Cloudpost. But on the other hand, if there were more in the cube and some things like Eldrazi Devastator, Scour From Existence, Universal Solvent, and some Big Dumb Green Idiots you know I would play Mono Green EZTron. That seems exciting.
Tron in cube seems exciting. I'd make sure to tell all of your players that everything is singleton except for Cloudpost, and I'd state how many were in the cube.
I think going for all Cloudposts and no Glimmerposts is fine. When you have 2 in play you have 4 mana, when you have 3 in play you have 9 mana. So reasonably getting to 3 of them seems to be the sweet spot.
So doing a very rough estimate here, 6 in your deck (less for each card that can fetch for it) so that over the course of a "20 card game" you can see 3 of them?
Is 8 Cloudposts the right amount? 7 + Expedition Map? If you draft half the cube, you get 4 copies. If you draft the whole cube, 2 or 3 people can fight over it and it still would be somewhat reasonable to play and there would be an incentive to not let one player have all of them.
I'm not exactly sure how Hungry Hungry Hippos draft politics works at 10 players lol, most of my games are at 4 as I've said.
I hear you on space. There are too many interesting cards I want to play but my cube is 420 cards and that cannot change.
i think the posts are impossible to balance in a cube that doesnt run all cards in the pool each time. they scale better than tron with only 2 pieces, but get out of hand really fast for each one beyond.
If I were to run them at 360 Id probably run 4, so one guy is likely to have 3 in his deck. And you definitely want to have some of the colorless payoff cards salt has mentioned.
At 450 4 Cloud, 4 Glimmer seems best.
As far as the last paragraph goes, I think you misunderstood what I was saying, but in a way that just makes the divide very interesting to me. I was saying that while a Post deck would run Map to get its 2nd or 3rd Post, other decks wouldn't take it in order to find a Desert or a Bounceland or something. The idea that people wouldn't be willing to search their deck for an extra 3-6 mana is pretty wild to me. The need for payoffs is also interesting, though, because aside from Devastator, those other cards don't feel like payoffs to me. They feel like just worse versions of the cards that we usually run. The payoffs feel like more traditional staples like Buyback cards, fatties, or X-spells.
Getting three in play seems like best case scenario, but I guess the divide is that having two in play feels like plenty to make the cards worth drafting with modest support without offering so much power that everyone is picking them over more traditional picks. So, I guess my feel isn't so much "Hungry Hungry Hippos" as it is "value a 4th-5th pick slightly higher than everyone else in order to give your slower deck a boost."
The 360 4 baseline is interesting to me because of how you think that people would draft it. So you think the odds of someone just grabbing a random Post are pretty high in a normal 8-person draft?
I do get why more copies of Glimmerpost makes sense, but if that's the right way to do it it just doesn't feel worth it to me. Too many cards that I think are outright bad outside of a dedicated strategy does not feel like the sort of Cube that I'm into.
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I agree with you Waymarsh. I think Glimmerposts are unnecessary. No one wants to spend a draft pick on a card, that only does something, when you already have enough Cloudposts. The question is which amount of Cloudposts is the right amount. Expedition Map seems redundant. No one really wants that and if you go for the Locus Plan you could simply add another copy of Cloudpost.
Apropos ramp payoffs, while you are breaking the singleton rule anyway, what do you think about running multiple Self-Assembler and Aurochs Herd? I feel like these are way better payoffs for a ramp archetype than any single creature can ever be, because they get around every kind of removal, except for countermagic.
Hrm. That's a really good point Al. I don't like those cards all that much, because they get all the rule-breaking of Cloudpost with none of the immediate "oh, but sure, that makes sense" of the Locus. Cloudpost is a famously powerful common that has a certain amount of "splashiness" to it that makes it appealing outside of its actual power in gameplay (kind of like Brainstorm, but actually possibly good). Those, on the other hand, are famously fine-to-slightly-undervalued cards that people would probably play in a proper ramp strategy, but that they wouldn't take be happy about grabbing. The original version of this was Squadron Hawk, which is probably more comparable in terms of power level but a bit more appealing from a "history of the game" perspective. But I agree completely that they seem like much more compelling ramp payoffs than a lot of the other options. If I were to run it, I'd probably be tempted to run fewer copies of these less exciting cards that only really work if you're doing the deck. I'll reflect on this option some more.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My 450 Card Pauper Cube is going through major renovations. Feedback appreciated!
Hrm. That's a really good point Al. I don't like those cards all that much, because they get all the rule-breaking of Cloudpost with none of the immediate "oh, but sure, that makes sense" of the Locus. Cloudpost is a famously powerful common that has a certain amount of "splashiness" to it that makes it appealing outside of its actual power in gameplay (kind of like Brainstorm, but actually possibly good). Those, on the other hand, are famously fine-to-slightly-undervalued cards that people would probably play in a proper ramp strategy, but that they wouldn't take be happy about grabbing. The original version of this was Squadron Hawk, which is probably more comparable in terms of power level but a bit more appealing from a "history of the game" perspective. But I agree completely that they seem like much more compelling ramp payoffs than a lot of the other options. If I were to run it, I'd probably be tempted to run fewer copies of these less exciting cards that only really work if you're doing the deck. I'll reflect on this option some more.
Self-Assembler can fetch other self-assembler type creatures. In Pauper there is a 5 mana one with improvise, and there is a 3 mana one that taps to pump a self assembler. So you could play them singleton and you'd just get a neat pair of creatures. If you ran Mishra's Factory there would be some cool synergy.
The easy way out if you still want to run Tron is to run singleton copies of each Tron land. And each of these comes with 2 extra copies of the land. When you draft Tower you'll get permission to run 2 more copies of Tower in your deck.
I'd go for all three Tron Pieces if I could be guaranteed a benefit from it. I'd also consider hate drafting one and not grabbing the rest Monopoly style.
That seems even more icky than breaking singleton, but it does seem like the cleanest way to do it.
___________________________________
This seems like a basic question, but what is the best way to team draft? So both players on a team sit next to each other and draft their packs individually but in a coordinated manner.
Then when it comes to gameplay, what rules? Should players share life totals? How does turn order go?
I utterly hate free-for-all games, even going out of my way sometimes to intentionally kingmake/attack one player and drag him down with me just to demonstrate how they're ruled entirely by gentleman's agreement and politics, not the actual game itself. As I'm doing this I like to say things like, "Well, if I make my win condition someone's else's win condition, then I have a higher chance of winning." Or, "I'm going to do X, would X hurt you? Whatever benefits you the most I'll do. Okay, then I won't play this card." Or, "But I thought the point of Magic was to ruin it for your opponent."
These games are always determined by who can become the most powerful while not being noticed as the most powerful. Then this player just mops up everyone else. They're all just illusions of actual games.
I'm going to make a game called, "Knife". The rules are simple, everyone gets a foam toy knife. Getting stabbed by the knife kills you, and the last person alive wins. Players take turns in a clockwise manner deciding to either stab another player with their knife or use their knife to defend against other knife attacks.
That's all that free for all games are and the fact that there are Magic cards on the table is inconsequential.
Running a map and glimmers instead of more cloudpost reduces the chances that the post player will end up with 4+ clouds in the end, depending how the shuffle rng turned out at 450 cards. for the post player its totally fine to pick a glimmer instead of a cloud to get more locust and some extra life totally doesnt hurt.
getting 3/4 posts at 360 is just a guess, but i can totally see another player either hatepicking a post later in the draft after he passed the first 3 or trying to get some posts in the early as well. running only 2 posts in your deck comes with basically no drawback and still some payoff.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
My experiences with my cube have been pretty slow, I've lost to myself via decking before. Turns out Wall Of Kelp is a good card, but not without enough win conditions lol.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Tutors kind of stretch this notion because they're literally cheating, but it seems fine.
My experiences with my cube have been pretty slow, I've lost to myself via decking before. Turns out Wall Of Kelp is a good card, but not without enough win conditions lol.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
To be fair, you've said this about Duress (and Mesmeric Fiend I think too).
So this is the attitude that I complain about.
Either it utterly breaks the game and it's good.
Or it's just a normal card and therefore unplayable trash.
See: Fogs that aren't as good as Prismatic Strands, 3 mana black Pacifism, Duress, Mesmeric Fiend, Mystical Teachings, etc.
Second EDIT: I disagree with your evaluation of the differences between constructed and limited. Cards don't get special errata for when they're played in a cube, they still function the same.
If you draft both Guardian of the Guildoact and Pestilence it still works the same. Ghostly Flicker still loops with Mnemonic Wall.
Likewise a Duress can still nab a counterspell or something like Rancor just like it would in my constructed MBC deck.
So Mystical Teachings can still cheat and fetch you a powerful spell. I'm not sure what the difference is. Sure, it's not going to find Tron support cards in my cube, but it's going to find a Doom Blade in an environment where a Doom Blade is a top tier spell.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Here's a question for you: What makes Teachings any better than Merchant Scroll for you? It can search for more stuff, but is it worth costing literally twice as much? I don't think so, personally, and I would also not play Merchant Scroll in my Cube.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
I'm not sure why Teachings is bad.
In limited games tend to be slower, so spending 4 mana to fetch is tenable. It gets you anything you need.
If it can fetch one a Moment's Peace or Flicker in constructed Tron, why is is magically worse when it's fetching you a Doom Blade or Counterspell in a toned down environment?
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Pauper Cube gets a lot of its power by consisting almost entirely of effects that people actually play in Limited. This means that there are a lot of versions of cards that basically do the same thing as other cards. This means that a random draw is going to be better than a random draw in other formats, so if you're going to spend a lot of mana to not impact the board, the difference between a random draw and a tutor is not anywhere near as high as it used to be. This is (part) of the reason that I feel like Hieroglyphic Illumination is good enough when Teachings is not- I would rather just draw two than tutor for an Instant most of the time. In constructed, you also get to choose your targets from the history of Magic, and not from a smattering of random cards that the Cube's owner decided to include and that you managed to draft.
Oh, and I would definitely consider your "slower format" feelings unique to your Cube. I know that I am deliberately second-guessing every two-drop that I add to my Cube because the natural trend of powered Pauper cubes is towards aggro. Games get fast unless you take proactive measures to get them under control.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
Also Doom Blade doesn't break the game and when I'm saying, that a Rend Flesh is often better than paying 4 to tutor for Doom Blade, I'm not calling Teachings trash.
Let's take Delver of Secrets for example. This card is super popular pauper constructed as well as legacy. If constructed would be the same as limited by your logic this would be way too strong for your cube, but you play it anyway? Why is that? Because it's significantly worse in limited. Your deck isn't just 4 Delver and the rest spells to flip it. Teachings simply can not tutor anything, but only instants and in a few cases a flash creature. The thing is, that many instants in limited, and also in your cube, are redundant.
I'm not saying Teachings is bad in UB and probably a good card for that guild slot in your cube, because it makes the Splice deck more consistent, but Teaching will probably not make the cut in a nonblack deck.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
his posts are also pretty interchangeable and pretty much consist of the same phrases everytime.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I never said that Doom Blade is a bomb. But in a cube without Bombs (I can't recall if any are in my cube anymore, I don't think there are besides the 5 monarch cards I guess), all you're left with is READ, and therefore a spell like Doom Blade is top tier.
Delver is an exception. Delver only works when you build an entire deck around him, so you actually have to earn getting use out of him in cube. However, tutoring for a removal spell or countermagic just seems always decent. Many cards or many interactions between cards are going to be good regardless of whether or not they're constructed or drafted. To use a tautology, a Lightning Bolt is still a Lightning Bolt in cube.
A bit of an aside, but I do think that Delver in constructed Pauper being borderline OP is good for the format, or at least was before Foil pushed the deck over the top. I know that's a bit of a weird opinion, but midrange/tempo decks tend to neither kill you on turn 3 or lock you out of the game on turn 5, so actual Magic tends to be played when they're involved.
Additionally, it's only Flicker that I don't have in my cube because of how disgusting it is in constructed Pauper. I'm a-okay with Guardian of the Guildpact and Pestilence and Coalition Honor Guard and Sprout Swarm in constructed Pauper, but in a limited Pauper environment they tend to be dominant (even in a powered cube).
Why is single-use Teachings bad, but Fierce Empath or Heliod's Pilgrim or Goblin Matron not bad? Do you consider these to be bad cards too?
@Waymarsh. Can you post a link to your cube? I'm interested in drafting it but I can't force desktop view on my Windows Phone in order to see your signature.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
In slower cubes such as yours that might be the case in my first pauper cube teachings was ok not great but card inclusion 22-23 most of the time if the games go faster however spending 2 turns or a significant amount of mana to 2 for 1 yourself isn't that great.
Yes but many is not all like you said a lightning bolt is still a lightning bolt but stuff like combat tricks are usually stronger in limited while stuff that require more stuff to get going tend to be weaker in limited e.g. slivers.
Like I said it depends on the cube I personally don't find Matron that good in your cube even if it is a slower one as its 3 mana for a 1/1 that gets you best case scenario a beetleback chief which is okay but most other things you can get reqire a very limited very specific board to be useful. I am actually thinking about cutting Pilgrim im my cube for the same reason and that has more universal stuff to look for.
And even then with sthe single use of Matron,Pilgrim and empath you still leave an (abeit small) body behind while also beeing cheaper.
I would actually play Teachings in your cube, but in faster cubes and comboless cubes I wouldn't.
The only one of the cards that you listed that I play is Heliod's Pilgrim, which is on the weak side. All of them have two advantages over Teachings: They actually effect the board, and they cost 3 mana instead of 4. It's not much, but a 1/1 can be relevant for sacrifice or swarm themes and a 1/2 is actually close to an actual body. Fierce Empath gets something specialized that a lot of decks want, but in fairly low numbers. So it smooths over a strategy. Goblin Matron I agree is quite bad. The payoffs just aren't there. Even in your Cube I don't actually know what it's getting (other than Beetleback Chief) that is better than a number of cards with ETB effects. This is also part of the reason I think Goblin Grappler is such a natural addition for you. Pilgrim is the only one that I do play. It gets a lot of mileage by giving library manipulation to a color that is almost defined by not having it. It can also tutor for different things at different stages of the game; you can get an Empyrial Armor when it's time to beat down, or a Pacifism when it's time to find an answer. The decks that want Teachings, on the other hand, are pretty much limited to finding defensive spells. Those are good, but there's just not the same versatility. Also, the difference between 3 and 4 mana is pretty huge, especially when there's a chance that you'll want to search for a card and play the card in the same turn.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
I drafted your cube and left comments with the deck I made from it. Seems fine so far.
I'm not sure if 4 Cloudposts, 4 Glimmerposts is enough. That's roughly 2% of the whole cube, with an 80% chance of finding one in your entire starting 45. Maybe bump that to finding 1.5 every 45? Idk. Especially if you're not firing with all 10 people most of the time.
It depends on whether you want it to be an every draft thing, or are okay with it happening occasionally.
But Teachings is Instant speed though, so you can cast it end of opponent's turn and play the card immediately after.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
The fact that Teachings is an instant doesn't evaporate its cost. You still need to pay 4 mana to find something, plus whatever you spend to cast it. Spreading it out over two turns helps, but it doesn't solve the problem.
I really don't understand why you're continuing this conversation. I love Mystical Teachings, have played the card before, play decks in other formats specifically because they let me play the card, and still cut it years ago when the Cube was much weaker than it is now because it was just too slow and low-impact for what was going on in the format. You want to run the card, and that's great! It might even be good for you, it does work with some of your themes. At least I, and I believe many of us, have played Teachings before and cut it in an environment that is crafted to be very different from yours. The only thing that could push this forward is you playing with the card in your more idioscyncratic format, since that is the only unknown variable here. But at this point most of your comments just reflect that you haven't played with the card yet. I just don't even know what you're trying to accomplish.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
The tutorcreatures are all pretty bad, unless youre meta is not only slow, but ultraslow (like no 2-drops at all). That said, I drafted 2 pretty fast aggrodecks from salts cube and im pretty sure at this point he never actually played it, at least not with some experienced drafter.
Pilgrim is fine to fetch for Presence of Gond combo, otherwise Totem-Guide Hartebeest is the superior card
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I don't see a reason to draft Cloudpost over say, an off color bounceland then.
I've played the posts singleton in my cube (before it was pointed out to me that only Cloudpost gives you extra mana, not Glimmerpost). Even when you got to draft both, and had both in your deck all it did was give you a little extra colorless mana sometimes.
So I feel that at half draft, you're not going to find these enough to make them worth it. But at full draft, maybe four is a little less worse?
Even then, let's say at 10 players one player gets all 4 Cloudposts. If the average game only goes through the top 20 cards (I don't know any actual numbers, just seems reasonable), on average they're equal to running off-color bouncelands because they'll tap for 2.
Maybe an ASFAN of 1.5 per 45 (.5 per pack) is too high, I'm just spitballing. But maybe throw in 4 Glimmerpost? They have synergy with bounce lands.
If you ran more of them, they'd be more desirable by more players and it may even out. I just don't see a compelling reason to play hungry hungry hippos with the playset of 8post in the cube if there are only 4 of them.
I've only drafted my cube at the maximum amount of players a handful of times, most of my drafts are at 4 players.
I'm interested in this discussion about the Posts/Tron because I actually like the Tron lands themselves, just not the broken things you can do with them. The 'set completion' mechanic is real cool (I genuinely enjoy Monopoly) and having it be colorless mana makes your mana base an interesting puzzle. If all anyone did with them was play fatties and Self-Assemblers then I wouldn't hate Tron.
So any talk of incorporating Tron/EZTron into a cube is interesting to me.
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I don't know why I'm still arguing about Teachings. We're both in agreement that it's okay or likely okay (In my cube). Sorry.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Glimmerpost just feels bad to me. You only need two Locus for Cloudpost to provide an effect the Cube would absolutely run- tapping a land for 2 mana is extremely powerful. Glimmerpost doesn't do anything that feels worth it until you're at 4 or higher- it's not like we play Radiant Fountain. If I wanted to bump my Locus count, I might run 1, but I'd be more tempted to just run another Cloudpost so that people only have to keep their eyes open for one card. Really, at that point space becomes the bigger and bigger problem, though. I think where it's at right now, Post is probably not super strong as a singular strategy, but is a good way to support mana ramp. So I guess it's not really "hungry hungry hippos," because I doubt everyone will want them, but it does the work of a standard niche strategy. I think the big question is "how many Cloudposts do you need to consistently get 2 or more in play?" Then I think that number becomes the target for how many would appear in a typical 8-person draft. I guess the idea of picking up some extra mana may appeal to more people than I think, but I have to imagine other, better cards keep people from picking them all that highly unless they're actively looking for them. Hrm. I probably just have to play a bit to see what works for people, but I'm curious how many Posts seem necessary for a deck to run before they become desirable.
I'm hesitant to run Expedition Map, Reap and Sow, and Crop Rotation because I kind of doubt anyone would play those cards for any reason other than searching for Cloudposts, at which point they just feel like bad Cloudposts. Does that seem right?
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
On your last paragraph, yes. I wouldn't run expedition map just to find a 2nd or possibly 3rd Cloudpost. But on the other hand, if there were more in the cube and some things like Eldrazi Devastator, Scour From Existence, Universal Solvent, and some Big Dumb Green Idiots you know I would play Mono Green EZTron. That seems exciting.
Tron in cube seems exciting. I'd make sure to tell all of your players that everything is singleton except for Cloudpost, and I'd state how many were in the cube.
I think going for all Cloudposts and no Glimmerposts is fine. When you have 2 in play you have 4 mana, when you have 3 in play you have 9 mana. So reasonably getting to 3 of them seems to be the sweet spot.
So doing a very rough estimate here, 6 in your deck (less for each card that can fetch for it) so that over the course of a "20 card game" you can see 3 of them?
Is 8 Cloudposts the right amount? 7 + Expedition Map? If you draft half the cube, you get 4 copies. If you draft the whole cube, 2 or 3 people can fight over it and it still would be somewhat reasonable to play and there would be an incentive to not let one player have all of them.
I'm not exactly sure how Hungry Hungry Hippos draft politics works at 10 players lol, most of my games are at 4 as I've said.
I hear you on space. There are too many interesting cards I want to play but my cube is 420 cards and that cannot change.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
If I were to run them at 360 Id probably run 4, so one guy is likely to have 3 in his deck. And you definitely want to have some of the colorless payoff cards salt has mentioned.
At 450 4 Cloud, 4 Glimmer seems best.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Getting three in play seems like best case scenario, but I guess the divide is that having two in play feels like plenty to make the cards worth drafting with modest support without offering so much power that everyone is picking them over more traditional picks. So, I guess my feel isn't so much "Hungry Hungry Hippos" as it is "value a 4th-5th pick slightly higher than everyone else in order to give your slower deck a boost."
The 360 4 baseline is interesting to me because of how you think that people would draft it. So you think the odds of someone just grabbing a random Post are pretty high in a normal 8-person draft?
I do get why more copies of Glimmerpost makes sense, but if that's the right way to do it it just doesn't feel worth it to me. Too many cards that I think are outright bad outside of a dedicated strategy does not feel like the sort of Cube that I'm into.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
Apropos ramp payoffs, while you are breaking the singleton rule anyway, what do you think about running multiple Self-Assembler and Aurochs Herd? I feel like these are way better payoffs for a ramp archetype than any single creature can ever be, because they get around every kind of removal, except for countermagic.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
Self-Assembler can fetch other self-assembler type creatures. In Pauper there is a 5 mana one with improvise, and there is a 3 mana one that taps to pump a self assembler. So you could play them singleton and you'd just get a neat pair of creatures. If you ran Mishra's Factory there would be some cool synergy.
The easy way out if you still want to run Tron is to run singleton copies of each Tron land. And each of these comes with 2 extra copies of the land. When you draft Tower you'll get permission to run 2 more copies of Tower in your deck.
I'd go for all three Tron Pieces if I could be guaranteed a benefit from it. I'd also consider hate drafting one and not grabbing the rest Monopoly style.
That seems even more icky than breaking singleton, but it does seem like the cleanest way to do it.
___________________________________
This seems like a basic question, but what is the best way to team draft? So both players on a team sit next to each other and draft their packs individually but in a coordinated manner.
Then when it comes to gameplay, what rules? Should players share life totals? How does turn order go?
I utterly hate free-for-all games, even going out of my way sometimes to intentionally kingmake/attack one player and drag him down with me just to demonstrate how they're ruled entirely by gentleman's agreement and politics, not the actual game itself. As I'm doing this I like to say things like, "Well, if I make my win condition someone's else's win condition, then I have a higher chance of winning." Or, "I'm going to do X, would X hurt you? Whatever benefits you the most I'll do. Okay, then I won't play this card." Or, "But I thought the point of Magic was to ruin it for your opponent."
These games are always determined by who can become the most powerful while not being noticed as the most powerful. Then this player just mops up everyone else. They're all just illusions of actual games.
I'm going to make a game called, "Knife". The rules are simple, everyone gets a foam toy knife. Getting stabbed by the knife kills you, and the last person alive wins. Players take turns in a clockwise manner deciding to either stab another player with their knife or use their knife to defend against other knife attacks.
That's all that free for all games are and the fact that there are Magic cards on the table is inconsequential.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
getting 3/4 posts at 360 is just a guess, but i can totally see another player either hatepicking a post later in the draft after he passed the first 3 or trying to get some posts in the early as well. running only 2 posts in your deck comes with basically no drawback and still some payoff.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t