Last update was from 2017 any cards people have on the back of their minds to include in this.
This is a rough 'draft' by all means (pun intended) at the moment I am severly lacking in the creature department. I will be aiming to have at least 20 creatures in each color.
Btw should I cut the colorless section all together or does anyone have an idea for this section?
Ah man, that stinks to hear about Brine. I was really hoping that was good enough, get some old school flavor.
Hrm, Brainz, I have some questions! I think the issue with your Cube for me is that there just isn't all that much enchantment synergy at Common, and the stuff that there is is very focused in White. (Curse you, Theros block!). Aside from the importance of Enchantments, is there anything that your Cube is really going for? I think that my instinct would be to pick a couple themes or enchantments and then build around those a bit more. Heroic seems like your obvious bread and butter, and there have been some good recent downshifts on that front (Lotus-Eye Mystics, Tethmos High Priest, Arena Athlete in Ultimate Masters). Blue seems to have a bit of a Tax and Mill theme, so maybe some creatures that play into that, like Rishadan Cutpurse? Red has a number of cards that seem to reward a large number of creatures (IE Impact Tremors, Betrothed in Fire), so maybe some Token support? I like this one because it also really wants you to CAST creatures, so you'll be less interested in Dragon Fodder than Mogg War-Marshall. But I think you're going to have a hard time getting enough creatures that specifically care about Enchantments, so you'll want to run creatures that support the strategies that your enchantments encourage that make it clear that the enchantments are running the show.
Also, no love for Tortured Existence? Black graveyards seems like a solid option for Black's deck.
I think one core disagreement between us, Humphrey, is that I just find Commons more interesting than other rarities. Even the silly would-never-be-commons-today commons in our Cubes feel like they were designed with a particular sensibility about what a Common was. I like that they feel like building blocks, and I like our "Ultimate Limited" environment. I could probably think of higher rarity cards that I could add that would help that feeling and that I would enjoy, but then I think I would bump into SaltMaster's problem where I'm just designing to a feeling that would be hard to explain and may not be the same for all people. Keeping it Pauper just sort of gives me that feeling with an easy rule to explain, and also lets me experiment with the rules that I don't think matter as much. I don't know, I've been playing this Cube for at least 10 years and I've never been bored with it.
Whenever people say "interesting," especially in the same word as "archetype," I get wary. I also like interesting things, but when people say "interesting archetype" in MTG I often get flashbacks to BFZ, the worst set in recorded history. I don't find combos of bad cards interesting, which is why I've never really liked basic Cube. I do find synergies of good cards interesting, which is why I like Pauper. I don't actually know if that makes sense, but it makes perfect sense to me.
I think Cloudpost might actually be a more sensible inclusion than Tron. It's probably a little lower power level, but it also screams "you probably want to look out for more cards called Cloudpost!" I generally feel like this balances my very mixed feelings on archetypes with my desire to just put a glowing sign in packs that tells first time drafters "this is a strategy that you could pursue." Do you think 4 would be enough for it to be worth it consistently? I don't really like the "draft 1, get 3" option, although it does resolve my issue- I guess I like that Hungry Hungry Hippos feeling.
@SaltMaster: I haven't done the card-by-card breakdown, but one card that I am very curious about in your Cube is Blastoderm. It seems like it's almost designed in a vat to avoid many of the cool interactions that you are looking for, and is notably higher power level than many of the cards in your Cube. How has it played out for you?
EDIT: @Izor, I ignored your post at first because I am trying to move past this conversation, but that felt jerkier than I wanted it to. No, you're not hard to understand. I just fundamentally disagree with almost every part of your statement. Other casual forums (I consider Cube a casual format) do not have huge problems with this. We have tools that SHOULD be all about power level, like the Evaluate Everything project. But I just don't see why it's so important for the whole forum to run that way, or why it's so important to just deny specialized Cubes a public forum. I find many of the things that you consider worthless op extremely valuable and informative. If I were to design a specialized Cube again, the first thing I would do once I had a serviceable list is post it in some sort of forum so that I could get at least rudimentary feedback.
Blastoderm so far has been more fair than the other under costed 4 mana 5/5 Big Dumb Green Beaters. It has a time limit on it, so one can ignore it for a turn or chump it until it goes away. It can't have Rancor on it. I can stick a blob of creatures in front of it and all-in block it without fear of getting blown out by a pump spell. In a lot of situations I'd rather be facing a Blastoderm than Siege Wurm or a normal Big Dumb Green Guy when I know my opponent has Rancor.
When I first heard about Shroud I thought that it was a much better designed Hexproof and thought that Hexproof was replaced by it. In Pauper the only Hexproof cards that see play are the ones found in Bogles, and those are all at least 10 years old so I figured they had stopped making the cards. When I found out that wizards views it the opposite way, that Hexproof is fixed Shroud and they stopped making Shroud cards, I was genuinely surprised.
Then it made sense because it fits my idea that most Magic players don't actually want to play fun, fair, interactive magic. So when they're faced with a well designed, fun and fair mechanic like Shroud they hate it and recoil in horror as if it was holy water burning their skin.
8 Post is generally regarded as better Tron. Before Cloudpost was banned from Pauper, the game was apparently utterly dominated by 8 Post decks. 8 Post is easier to assemble and extra Glimmerposts net you extra life in addition to extra mana.
I really hate the fact, that they removed Shroud in their mission to make all effects one-sided. Shroud was a totally different thing, that allowed wotc to print on curve creatures with an form of protection, that wasn't as stupid as indestructible, regenerate or protection. New players understood how it worked.
With hexproof they simply print creatures that are under curve and require an aura or equipment to be viable. Several great creatures have Shroud like Calcite Snapper or Deft Duelist.
They still go further with their policy by making stuff like Vindictive Vampire one-sided compared to something like Falkenrath Noble, which was a cool card due to the fact that it didn't only enable an aristocrat strategy, but were simply good the other way around in a removal heavy strategy.
I like the fact, that something like Elvish Clancaller nowadays doesn't just randomly pump your opponents elves for no particular reason what so ever, but by removing Shroud and cutting aristocrat effects in half, they completely change how these cards work and restrict themself on designing interesting cards.
@SaltMaster 5000:
Since you don't really want to improve the powerlevel by cutting weaker cards for stronger versions of themself, I would probably try to approach from the opposite site and ask myself, which cards might be too strong compared to the average powerlevel you are aiming for in order to make the cube more balanced. I think Blastoderm is a good example. Sure if you have enough tokens lying around Blastoderm can actually be waited out rather unproblematic, but I think it still belongs into the category of cards that need a specific answer in order not decide the game in someones favour.
Other cards that might be too strong IMO are Seeker of the Way, Battle Screech, Custodi Squire, Mulldrifter, Porcelain Legionnaire and Rolling Thunder.
Another consideration is to maybe trim some of the top tier removal spells like Counterspell, Mana Leak, Condescend, Doom Blade, Terror, Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning and replace them with more fair alternatives. I think it could be more interesting to restrict yourself towards conditional counterspells like Essence Scatter or set a price of at least 3 mana for unconditionally killing a creature like Eyeblight's Ending. I simply feel it's currently kind of weird to have several different grades of powerlevels side by side.
Blastoderm as I've already stated tends to be more fair than other 4 mana 5/5's in green. If you don't have a specific answer for it, you can just wait it out. If I only have 1 removal spell in my hand and my opponent has multiple creatures out, I can kill the biggest threat that's not Blastoderm and just let Blastoderm die in a turn or two.
I feel that Counterspell, Doom Blade, Terror, etc. are just 1 for 1 exchanges of cards. So I'm okay with them. I don't see why it's necessary that they all be at the same power level.
Cards like Essence Scatter are actually more powerful than Counterspell in my cube. Most relevant spells are creature spells, and 1U is easier to cast than UU.
Furthermore, your opponent still being able to keep their blocker with a card like Demonic Torment makes me want it in my cube more, not less. That makes for more interesting board states than just casting Hand of Death #15/27. So having a variety of different removal spells spices things up more.
Blastoderm seems a good example how different powerlevels in meta can be. In mine its probably the best creature and a solid first pick. The card basically reads CC4: deal 15 damage. Since my cube is removal heavy and doesnt run the swarm archetype Blasto gets either a lot of damage in or trades 3:1
btw i also agree that shroud is the "better" hexproof in actual gameplay. on the other hand hexproof at least gives auras a reason to be played.
Yeah, Blastoderm seemed like it actually would just be super fair in your Cube. It just didn't seem super fun? Like, Shroud is better than Hexproof, sure, but they're both mechanics defined by a lack of interaction.
I do think the removal pieces are generally fine, although they are weird. I would focus on Al's list, Seeker of the Way, Battle Screech, Custodi Squire, Mulldrifter, Porcelain Legionnaire and Rolling Thunder. The higher end cards can kind of break the game sometimes, while the lower end are probably some of the chief offenders of "not particularly interesting 2-drops that probably really limit midrange options." Seeker is cooler than the Toilet, but still...
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The idea that Shroud is better than Hexproof doesn't make sense to me (and I do realize you mean better in "gameplay" terms). Shroud is just a defensive ability that doesn't have much design space to play with -- there are no playable hexproof creatures that could be viewed as defacto shroud creatures.
Put on your amateur game design hats (berets..) if you must, but IMO if they'd kept shroud around there would be precisely zero extra shroud creatures in anyone's cube absent SaltMaster or someone deciding to make a Shroud of Turin theme Cube.
Personally (and this is me putting on my own beret) I think hexproof is a fallout from the fact that it would've been nigh impossible for Garfield et al to realize that Auras should probably attach on resolution (and I really mean *impossible* since "attach", "aura" etc were not even Magic concepts for a long time to come). Not to mention how strange it would be.
i also agree that shroud is the "better" hexproof in actual gameplay. on the other hand hexproof at least gives auras a reason to be played.
Couldn't agree more :D.
Hexproof would have been fine as maybe a set mechanic but not as an evergreen.
Quote from SaltMaster5000 »
I feel that Counterspell, Doom Blade, Terror, etc. are just 1 for 1 exchanges of cards. So I'm okay with them. I don't see why it's necessary that they all be at the same power level.
Quote from "SaltMaster5000" »
Furthermore, your opponent still being able to keep their blocker with a card like Demonic Torment makes me want it in my cube more, not less. That makes for more interesting board states than just casting Hand of Death #15/27. So having a variety of different removal spells spices things up more.
If not Powerlevel then that might be a reason to change them out even more maybe try to not have functional reprints so just one Terror like effect and remove others for stuff like Grave Peril
For me there is no inherent reason to pick up the Demonic Torment in a cube where it is likely that i can pick up a better removal spell, unless I am really light on removal spells. If I know there are edict effects in the cube it makes it even unliklier that I pick it up. But if premium removal is low I'd happily pick the Demonic Torment.
EDIT: Took so long to write that i didnt see you there Marl:
The idea that Shroud is better than Hexproof doesn't make sense to me (and I do realize you mean better in "gameplay" terms). Shroud is just a defensive ability that doesn't have much design space to play with -- there are no playable hexproof creatures that could be viewed as defacto shroud creatures.
Yeah Shroud doesn't have much design space but hexproof is the same in that regard. But hexproof limits the Design on other cards as well while shroud doesn't as much.
That's why I think as a set mechanic it would probably have worked better imo
Popping in to update: Day 2: browsed through one of my boxes last night and found a chunk of cards. I fell asleep immediately after so didn't post.
Was sitting at 77/360 last night.
Day 3: This morning I looked at all the older cards I assumed I would have the most trouble finding. Ended up buying a pile of cards off TCGPLAYER. Even though I dont have them in hand yet, I am counting it as 120/360. I am officially 1/3 collected!
24 more days until charity event. Feeling pretty confident.
On a note relating to the discussion earlier. I looked into Battlebox thing and it really appealed to me. I like having multiple things people can do. I know lots of people who used to play Magic that would throw down with me. I am going to build myself one after I am finished with both this project and my Horde deck. Thanks for bringing it to light!
Battlebox is pretty great! I have my issues with how it was introduced here, but it's honestly a pretty fantastic format that scratches a lot of the same itches as our Cube. I'm glad you like it!
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Battlebox is pretty great! I have my issues with how it was introduced here, but it's honestly a pretty fantastic format that scratches a lot of the same itches as our Cube. I'm glad you like it!
A few pages ago you asked about incentivizing ramp with big mana X spells, and you asked how many is the right amount.
Additionally, you're not necessarily asking for X spells with modular costs, but end game cards that you can pour mana into. Take a look at Sprout Swarm, Lab Rats, Rhystic Circle, anything else with a Buyback, etc. Corrupt, Tendrils of Corruption. Depends on how degenerate you want to get, some of these cards utterly dominate games when they're played.
Storm could also be considered a mana sink ability.
I don't know what the right amount is. Let's say all the ones you choose are bombs, and let's say that you want there to be 1 in each 45 that everyone gets, so 10 mana sink bombs then? Maybe 15?
You could calculate the ASFAN for mana sink bombs and see what feels right.
Most of these common buyback spells are super playable actually.
Any creature that says: MANA: This creature gets +x/+x is a mana sink. My favorite of these is Sokenzan Spellblade. When I put this in my cube it was just for the memes because it had two wacky abilities oh it plus it was done by my favorite artist (Carl Critchlow). Then my friend pointed out that you can pay its pump cost as many times as you want and it blew my mind.
There are also just plain expensive spells. Scour From Existence, Universal Solvent, any of the wumbo colorless creatures like Ulamog's Crusher that don't normally see any play, etc.
Oh, so I was specifically talking about Red "Deal X damage for X mana" spells. I've actually played more than a few of the cards you've listed before as underperformers, but there are some sweet ones in there. I've always liked Lab Rats, because I like that Black secretly just has a Rat tribal subtheme in some of its staple creatures, but it just looks so bad next to Sprout Swarm (which I run and is absurd). I might reexamine some of these, though.
Speaking of reexamining things, I know that this forum is down on Logic Knot (it's Bad in Evaluate Everything). I have also been down on it in the past- I know that I ran it before and cut it as an underperformer, although that was a long time ago. I'm not entirely sure why, though? My Cube is probably a little too graveyard-hungry to want it, but I'm curious if there's a specific reason it's so unloved. In Evaluate Everything it's listed in the same slot as Spell Blast, which just doesn't feel right to me. (Note: This may just be an Evaluate Everything question, but I keep on hearing its siren call in a way that suggests that MAYBE it could be a synergy card in my Cube?)
Oh, so I was specifically talking about Red "Deal X damage for X mana" spells. I've actually played more than a few of the cards you've listed before as underperformers, but there are some sweet ones in there. I've always liked Lab Rats, because I like that Black secretly just has a Rat tribal subtheme in some of its staple creatures, but it just looks so bad next to Sprout Swarm (which I run and is absurd). I might reexamine some of these, though.
Speaking of reexamining things, I know that this forum is down on Logic Knot (it's Bad in Evaluate Everything). I have also been down on it in the past- I know that I ran it before and cut it as an underperformer, although that was a long time ago. I'm not entirely sure why, though? My Cube is probably a little too graveyard-hungry to want it, but I'm curious if there's a specific reason it's so unloved. In Evaluate Everything it's listed in the same slot as Spell Blast, which just doesn't feel right to me. (Note: This may just be an Evaluate Everything question, but I keep on hearing its siren call in a way that suggests that MAYBE it could be a synergy card in my Cube?)
I don't see how Lab Rats is significantly worse than Sprout Swarm. It's worse sure, but it's still a bomb.
Logic Knot is a fine spell, that's just herd mentality.
In my cube Remove Soul 1U spells are better picks than the various UU counterspells simply because of their extra blue cost. If that's not a problem in your cube I don't see why Logic Knot isn't a fine spell.
Logic Knot has synergy with Foil if you're into that sort of thing.
Logic Knot is one of those spells that's a good card but since it doesn't utterly break the game it's regarded as utter trash.
Convoke on Sprout Swarm is HUGE. So is Instant speed, but Convoke is the biggest one. The effect is just more powerful at 4 mana instead of 5, especially since you'll be paying that cost multiple times in the same turn, and it even helps make itself more splashable if your UR deck needs a win condition! It's so good that Lab Rats might be OK despite being notably weaker, but it's still notably weaker.
This is probably a sign that this should have gone in Evaluate Everything. It is a raw power level question with a dash of my Cube design thrown in because I think my Cube is a little bit more graveyard focused than most Cubes. I do like its synergy with Foil- it's part of Rona's core strategy! But it's a bit on the slow side for Cube.
I think that's pretty unfair to how this forum talks about power level, though. You only have room for so many Counterspells, and Logic Knot is clearly weaker than the big dogs in the format. I'm just not sure what makes it so much worse than some of the other second-tier Counterspells. It probably is worse than the first Remove Soul, though, which might just answer my question for me.
EDIT: Upon further reflection, Foil plus Gush is probably too cute, but it's exactly the kind of cute that I like. I might try it even though I suspect it's a bit on the slow side.
Convoke on Sprout Swarm is HUGE. So is Instant speed, but Convoke is the biggest one. The effect is just more powerful at 4 mana instead of 5, especially since you'll be paying that cost multiple times in the same turn, and it even helps make itself more splashable if your UR deck needs a win condition! It's so good that Lab Rats might be OK despite being notably weaker, but it's still notably weaker.
This is probably a sign that this should have gone in Evaluate Everything. It is a raw power level question with a dash of my Cube design thrown in because I think my Cube is a little bit more graveyard focused than most Cubes. I do like its synergy with Foil- it's part of Rona's core strategy! But it's a bit on the slow side for Cube.
I think that's pretty unfair to how this forum talks about power level, though. You only have room for so many Counterspells, and Logic Knot is clearly weaker than the big dogs in the format. I'm just not sure what makes it so much worse than some of the other second-tier Counterspells. It probably is worse than the first Remove Soul, though, which might just answer my question for me.
EDIT: Upon further reflection, Foil plus Gush is probably too cute, but it's exactly the kind of cute that I like. I might try it even though I suspect it's a bit on the slow side.
Regarding Gush, I've noticed that Fathom Seer is the better card in limited.
In response to removal I've morphed it, bounced it, and then replayed it later for more card draw.
So there are enough copies of Gush to make Foil worthwhile and 4 mana isn't that hard in limited.
The question for me is, how often would you play a flashback card in a deck that can only play 1/2 of it. I think this is true for basically none of the flashback cards, which is why I count them as multicolored.
thing is, its totally fine to just add one dual or fixing for the flashback card and otherwise run 2 completely different colors. therefore they play much closer to monocolored cards than guild cards.
For me it depends on the card. Travel Preparations plays more like a Selesnya card. While Mystical Teachings plays more like a monocolored card. Reason being basically a mix of what humphrey and Al said. With Teachings it's fine if you can play only one half or make a small splash if you have the fixing for it. While Preparations pretty much demand that you play white as the longer you need to find the white source the less usful it becomes.
But for "ODC" reasons I count them all as multicolor.
Of those, the only ones that I would really consider playing if I wasn't fairly invested in both colors are Strangling Soot, which I regularly splash, and Rally the Peasants, because tokens decks aren't all WR but pretty much all want a Fortify. Even the ones I'm willing to splash would still make me adjust deck construction and drafting so that it feels a little closer to a Gold card. It also helps that many of these cards skew a little bit aggressive, and I'm much more likely to splash in a controlling deck than an aggressive one. It's definitely not perfect, but in a world where 1 and .5 "color points" set the standard, it's just so much closer to a 1 than a .5 for me that I go with "proper Gold."
EDIT: For me, a 1 is "people playing this card will most likely find some way to play both of its colors." A .5 is "People may or may not play the card in this color." Even if it plays out differently than a normal Gold card, I think that off-color flashback is much closer to 1 than .5. This is also a good reminder that I should probably just count Viashino Slaughtermaster as a Red card, because I just think it's unlikely many people will splash a third color to support its so-so ability. It really is 90% just a 2-mana double striker.
Some of these cards I'd snap pick without their second color, especially Mystical Teachings.
Sure, Feeling of Dread or Travel Preparations are more evenly split, but that's because their base effect is just okay and you kind of need to flash it back in order to make better use of the card.
Something like Strangling Soot is just another black removal spell I'll first pick (if there isn't better removal in the pack) because removal is never bad, Rally the Peasants is just white Trumpet Blast, and Teachings basically allows you to cheat at the game and cheating at the game once is more than enough to justify running it.
I'm asking this because I'm actually thinking about putting Teachings in, but a Dimir slot seems kind of weird for the card. I figure with Heliod's Pilgrim, Goblin Matron, and Fierce Empath a blue tutor is okay. On one hand a Simic deck could use it to find a big dumb Flash idiot or protect its creatures with countermagic, on the other a Dimir deck could use it to fetch a Doom Blade.
Hmm, idk, Teachings seems above the power level I want for my cube, sort of. I'll try it out. It might make Splice unironically too good, but is that a bad thing?
Speaking of cards in the wrong color, I put Whip-spine Drake into Azorius when it's really actually a white creature. I have to change that.
Teachings might be fine for your Cube, and is a sweet card (I should just post Rona, deck is basically a poster-child for how I want to play Magic). I cut it (it hurt as much as cutting myself) a while ago, though, because it was just SO slow and our instants are duplicative enough to prevent it from giving us serious utility. You have my blessing to play it, by all means, but it's too slow for the normal Cube.
Feeling of Dread is only worth running in WU, but it's pretty good in WU. Being able to tap down four creatures in a turn or two creatures over two turns at a pretty low cost either way gives you a ton of paths to victory. It's not an all-star, but it's rock solid. If you think Splice makes up for that versatility, more power to you! It might in your Cube. But it doesn't seem particularly close to me.
Rally as just the White half is not good enough for Cube (although it's close if you support token synergy- if there was a 2W/R Trumpet Blast I would probably play it), but it's good enough to play if you're W/X Tokens. Once you're WR, the card gives you a ton of reach. +4/+0 can swing a ton of games your opponent thinks they have wrapped up without even demanding much of a board state on your part, and even surprising your opponent once then threatening it for the rest of the game changes the way the game plays. Strangling Soot would not make my Cube without Flashback, probably even if it cost 2 mana. The ability to get card advantage through removal really is key to the card. But yes, I suppose your Cube might play it regardless.
4 mana, and later 6, to not effect the card when so many of our effects do similar things, is just a tough sell at the speed of most Pauper cubes. The card is beautiful and I support you trying it just fine, but I think it is important for you to remember what you plan on searching for and how much better searching for it is than just drawing it through more traditional card advantage.
EDIT: I may have misunderstood what you were getting at, sorry. I would strongly, strongly discourage almost any card I listed other than possibly Soot and Feeling for your Cube. Rally does not feel like fair Magic at all, and stands out to me as basically how I get around my opponents doing normal busted things in Innistrad limited. I can think of more than one game where my opponent dropped what we both thought was a game-ending bomb that entirely broke my board state, only for me to draw into Rally and bring them down from like 15 life. Travel Prep almost feels fair, but I did have one friend tell me that he felt like EOT Midnight Haunting into turn 4 Travel Prep/Flashback in Innistrad draft felt more busted than anything he did throughout the Legacy Cube on MTGO. When these cards are good, they're REAL good.
I think you're in the clear to test Teachings. It's sweet and OK, but pretty far from broken IMO. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if it were too slow for your Cube.
Teaching is another of these cards that are really good in constructed, because it creates a toolbox, where you can play a lot of 1-off situational cards and guarantee them at the right time. In limited your answers are usually not that wide spread and you are simply adding 4 cmc to any interchangeable removal spell. I think without the flashback it's actually pretty unplayable and even if you are UB it's far from broken. Don't confuse constructed with limited powerlevel.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/45528
Last update was from 2017 any cards people have on the back of their minds to include in this.
This is a rough 'draft' by all means (pun intended) at the moment I am severly lacking in the creature department. I will be aiming to have at least 20 creatures in each color.
Btw should I cut the colorless section all together or does anyone have an idea for this section?
Brainz Archetypes/Synergies Thread [WIP]
Hrm, Brainz, I have some questions! I think the issue with your Cube for me is that there just isn't all that much enchantment synergy at Common, and the stuff that there is is very focused in White. (Curse you, Theros block!). Aside from the importance of Enchantments, is there anything that your Cube is really going for? I think that my instinct would be to pick a couple themes or enchantments and then build around those a bit more. Heroic seems like your obvious bread and butter, and there have been some good recent downshifts on that front (Lotus-Eye Mystics, Tethmos High Priest, Arena Athlete in Ultimate Masters). Blue seems to have a bit of a Tax and Mill theme, so maybe some creatures that play into that, like Rishadan Cutpurse? Red has a number of cards that seem to reward a large number of creatures (IE Impact Tremors, Betrothed in Fire), so maybe some Token support? I like this one because it also really wants you to CAST creatures, so you'll be less interested in Dragon Fodder than Mogg War-Marshall. But I think you're going to have a hard time getting enough creatures that specifically care about Enchantments, so you'll want to run creatures that support the strategies that your enchantments encourage that make it clear that the enchantments are running the show.
Also, no love for Tortured Existence? Black graveyards seems like a solid option for Black's deck.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
Blastoderm so far has been more fair than the other under costed 4 mana 5/5 Big Dumb Green Beaters. It has a time limit on it, so one can ignore it for a turn or chump it until it goes away. It can't have Rancor on it. I can stick a blob of creatures in front of it and all-in block it without fear of getting blown out by a pump spell. In a lot of situations I'd rather be facing a Blastoderm than Siege Wurm or a normal Big Dumb Green Guy when I know my opponent has Rancor.
When I first heard about Shroud I thought that it was a much better designed Hexproof and thought that Hexproof was replaced by it. In Pauper the only Hexproof cards that see play are the ones found in Bogles, and those are all at least 10 years old so I figured they had stopped making the cards. When I found out that wizards views it the opposite way, that Hexproof is fixed Shroud and they stopped making Shroud cards, I was genuinely surprised.
Then it made sense because it fits my idea that most Magic players don't actually want to play fun, fair, interactive magic. So when they're faced with a well designed, fun and fair mechanic like Shroud they hate it and recoil in horror as if it was holy water burning their skin.
8 Post is generally regarded as better Tron. Before Cloudpost was banned from Pauper, the game was apparently utterly dominated by 8 Post decks. 8 Post is easier to assemble and extra Glimmerposts net you extra life in addition to extra mana.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
With hexproof they simply print creatures that are under curve and require an aura or equipment to be viable. Several great creatures have Shroud like Calcite Snapper or Deft Duelist.
They still go further with their policy by making stuff like Vindictive Vampire one-sided compared to something like Falkenrath Noble, which was a cool card due to the fact that it didn't only enable an aristocrat strategy, but were simply good the other way around in a removal heavy strategy.
I like the fact, that something like Elvish Clancaller nowadays doesn't just randomly pump your opponents elves for no particular reason what so ever, but by removing Shroud and cutting aristocrat effects in half, they completely change how these cards work and restrict themself on designing interesting cards.
@SaltMaster 5000:
Since you don't really want to improve the powerlevel by cutting weaker cards for stronger versions of themself, I would probably try to approach from the opposite site and ask myself, which cards might be too strong compared to the average powerlevel you are aiming for in order to make the cube more balanced. I think Blastoderm is a good example. Sure if you have enough tokens lying around Blastoderm can actually be waited out rather unproblematic, but I think it still belongs into the category of cards that need a specific answer in order not decide the game in someones favour.
Other cards that might be too strong IMO are Seeker of the Way, Battle Screech, Custodi Squire, Mulldrifter, Porcelain Legionnaire and Rolling Thunder.
Another consideration is to maybe trim some of the top tier removal spells like Counterspell, Mana Leak, Condescend, Doom Blade, Terror, Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning and replace them with more fair alternatives. I think it could be more interesting to restrict yourself towards conditional counterspells like Essence Scatter or set a price of at least 3 mana for unconditionally killing a creature like Eyeblight's Ending. I simply feel it's currently kind of weird to have several different grades of powerlevels side by side.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
I feel that Counterspell, Doom Blade, Terror, etc. are just 1 for 1 exchanges of cards. So I'm okay with them. I don't see why it's necessary that they all be at the same power level.
Cards like Essence Scatter are actually more powerful than Counterspell in my cube. Most relevant spells are creature spells, and 1U is easier to cast than UU.
Furthermore, your opponent still being able to keep their blocker with a card like Demonic Torment makes me want it in my cube more, not less. That makes for more interesting board states than just casting Hand of Death #15/27. So having a variety of different removal spells spices things up more.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
btw i also agree that shroud is the "better" hexproof in actual gameplay. on the other hand hexproof at least gives auras a reason to be played.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I do think the removal pieces are generally fine, although they are weird. I would focus on Al's list, Seeker of the Way, Battle Screech, Custodi Squire, Mulldrifter, Porcelain Legionnaire and Rolling Thunder. The higher end cards can kind of break the game sometimes, while the lower end are probably some of the chief offenders of "not particularly interesting 2-drops that probably really limit midrange options." Seeker is cooler than the Toilet, but still...
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
Put on your amateur game design hats (berets..) if you must, but IMO if they'd kept shroud around there would be precisely zero extra shroud creatures in anyone's cube absent SaltMaster or someone deciding to make a Shroud of Turin theme Cube.
Personally (and this is me putting on my own beret) I think hexproof is a fallout from the fact that it would've been nigh impossible for Garfield et al to realize that Auras should probably attach on resolution (and I really mean *impossible* since "attach", "aura" etc were not even Magic concepts for a long time to come). Not to mention how strange it would be.
Couldn't agree more :D.
Hexproof would have been fine as maybe a set mechanic but not as an evergreen.
If not Powerlevel then that might be a reason to change them out even more maybe try to not have functional reprints so just one Terror like effect and remove others for stuff like Grave Peril
For me there is no inherent reason to pick up the Demonic Torment in a cube where it is likely that i can pick up a better removal spell, unless I am really light on removal spells. If I know there are edict effects in the cube it makes it even unliklier that I pick it up. But if premium removal is low I'd happily pick the Demonic Torment.
EDIT: Took so long to write that i didnt see you there Marl:
Yeah Shroud doesn't have much design space but hexproof is the same in that regard. But hexproof limits the Design on other cards as well while shroud doesn't as much.
That's why I think as a set mechanic it would probably have worked better imo
Shroud creatures just place more importance on actual creature combat and interacting that way.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Was sitting at 77/360 last night.
Day 3: This morning I looked at all the older cards I assumed I would have the most trouble finding. Ended up buying a pile of cards off TCGPLAYER. Even though I dont have them in hand yet, I am counting it as 120/360. I am officially 1/3 collected!
24 more days until charity event. Feeling pretty confident.
On a note relating to the discussion earlier. I looked into Battlebox thing and it really appealed to me. I like having multiple things people can do. I know lots of people who used to play Magic that would throw down with me. I am going to build myself one after I am finished with both this project and my Horde deck. Thanks for bringing it to light!
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/36546
My Peasant Cube Forum
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/682833-360-peasant-hasteds-cube
My Riviera Live Draft Cube
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/35647
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
A few pages ago you asked about incentivizing ramp with big mana X spells, and you asked how many is the right amount.
I did a search of X costed commons, and this doesn't include things like Pestilence or Crypt Rats. Here is the search:
https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=mana:{X} rarity:c
Additionally, you're not necessarily asking for X spells with modular costs, but end game cards that you can pour mana into. Take a look at Sprout Swarm, Lab Rats, Rhystic Circle, anything else with a Buyback, etc. Corrupt, Tendrils of Corruption. Depends on how degenerate you want to get, some of these cards utterly dominate games when they're played.
Kjeldoran Javelineers is a mana sink too, I just put that in mine.
Storm could also be considered a mana sink ability.
I don't know what the right amount is. Let's say all the ones you choose are bombs, and let's say that you want there to be 1 in each 45 that everyone gets, so 10 mana sink bombs then? Maybe 15?
You could calculate the ASFAN for mana sink bombs and see what feels right.
Most of these common buyback spells are super playable actually.
https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=oracle:buyback rarity:c
Any creature that says: MANA: This creature gets +x/+x is a mana sink. My favorite of these is Sokenzan Spellblade. When I put this in my cube it was just for the memes because it had two wacky abilities oh it plus it was done by my favorite artist (Carl Critchlow). Then my friend pointed out that you can pay its pump cost as many times as you want and it blew my mind.
Wicked Akuba would make a pretty powerful combo with Viridian Longbow if you're into that sort of thing.
There are also just plain expensive spells. Scour From Existence, Universal Solvent, any of the wumbo colorless creatures like Ulamog's Crusher that don't normally see any play, etc.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Speaking of reexamining things, I know that this forum is down on Logic Knot (it's Bad in Evaluate Everything). I have also been down on it in the past- I know that I ran it before and cut it as an underperformer, although that was a long time ago. I'm not entirely sure why, though? My Cube is probably a little too graveyard-hungry to want it, but I'm curious if there's a specific reason it's so unloved. In Evaluate Everything it's listed in the same slot as Spell Blast, which just doesn't feel right to me. (Note: This may just be an Evaluate Everything question, but I keep on hearing its siren call in a way that suggests that MAYBE it could be a synergy card in my Cube?)
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
I don't see how Lab Rats is significantly worse than Sprout Swarm. It's worse sure, but it's still a bomb.
Logic Knot is a fine spell, that's just herd mentality.
In my cube Remove Soul 1U spells are better picks than the various UU counterspells simply because of their extra blue cost. If that's not a problem in your cube I don't see why Logic Knot isn't a fine spell.
Logic Knot has synergy with Foil if you're into that sort of thing.
Logic Knot is one of those spells that's a good card but since it doesn't utterly break the game it's regarded as utter trash.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
This is probably a sign that this should have gone in Evaluate Everything. It is a raw power level question with a dash of my Cube design thrown in because I think my Cube is a little bit more graveyard focused than most Cubes. I do like its synergy with Foil- it's part of Rona's core strategy! But it's a bit on the slow side for Cube.
I think that's pretty unfair to how this forum talks about power level, though. You only have room for so many Counterspells, and Logic Knot is clearly weaker than the big dogs in the format. I'm just not sure what makes it so much worse than some of the other second-tier Counterspells. It probably is worse than the first Remove Soul, though, which might just answer my question for me.
EDIT: Upon further reflection, Foil plus Gush is probably too cute, but it's exactly the kind of cute that I like. I might try it even though I suspect it's a bit on the slow side.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
Regarding Gush, I've noticed that Fathom Seer is the better card in limited.
In response to removal I've morphed it, bounced it, and then replayed it later for more card draw.
So there are enough copies of Gush to make Foil worthwhile and 4 mana isn't that hard in limited.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Is Mystical Teachings a Dimir card? Is Momentary Blink Azorius?
IDK, Mystical Teachings seems kind of "75%" blue, if that makes any sense. It can be played in mono blue but can't in black.
Do I just slot these cards in their respective guild slots and stop caring that black is down .75 of a card or whatever?
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
But for "ODC" reasons I count them all as multicolor.
I count them pretty much exclusively as Gold cards. Looking at my list, the off-color Flashbacks are:
1 Momentary Blink
1 Strangling Soot
1 Travel Preparations
1 Rally the Peasants
Of those, the only ones that I would really consider playing if I wasn't fairly invested in both colors are Strangling Soot, which I regularly splash, and Rally the Peasants, because tokens decks aren't all WR but pretty much all want a Fortify. Even the ones I'm willing to splash would still make me adjust deck construction and drafting so that it feels a little closer to a Gold card. It also helps that many of these cards skew a little bit aggressive, and I'm much more likely to splash in a controlling deck than an aggressive one. It's definitely not perfect, but in a world where 1 and .5 "color points" set the standard, it's just so much closer to a 1 than a .5 for me that I go with "proper Gold."
EDIT: For me, a 1 is "people playing this card will most likely find some way to play both of its colors." A .5 is "People may or may not play the card in this color." Even if it plays out differently than a normal Gold card, I think that off-color flashback is much closer to 1 than .5. This is also a good reminder that I should probably just count Viashino Slaughtermaster as a Red card, because I just think it's unlikely many people will splash a third color to support its so-so ability. It really is 90% just a 2-mana double striker.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
Sure, Feeling of Dread or Travel Preparations are more evenly split, but that's because their base effect is just okay and you kind of need to flash it back in order to make better use of the card.
Something like Strangling Soot is just another black removal spell I'll first pick (if there isn't better removal in the pack) because removal is never bad, Rally the Peasants is just white Trumpet Blast, and Teachings basically allows you to cheat at the game and cheating at the game once is more than enough to justify running it.
I'm asking this because I'm actually thinking about putting Teachings in, but a Dimir slot seems kind of weird for the card. I figure with Heliod's Pilgrim, Goblin Matron, and Fierce Empath a blue tutor is okay. On one hand a Simic deck could use it to find a big dumb Flash idiot or protect its creatures with countermagic, on the other a Dimir deck could use it to fetch a Doom Blade.
Hmm, idk, Teachings seems above the power level I want for my cube, sort of. I'll try it out. It might make Splice unironically too good, but is that a bad thing?
Speaking of cards in the wrong color, I put Whip-spine Drake into Azorius when it's really actually a white creature. I have to change that.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Feeling of Dread is only worth running in WU, but it's pretty good in WU. Being able to tap down four creatures in a turn or two creatures over two turns at a pretty low cost either way gives you a ton of paths to victory. It's not an all-star, but it's rock solid. If you think Splice makes up for that versatility, more power to you! It might in your Cube. But it doesn't seem particularly close to me.
Rally as just the White half is not good enough for Cube (although it's close if you support token synergy- if there was a 2W/R Trumpet Blast I would probably play it), but it's good enough to play if you're W/X Tokens. Once you're WR, the card gives you a ton of reach. +4/+0 can swing a ton of games your opponent thinks they have wrapped up without even demanding much of a board state on your part, and even surprising your opponent once then threatening it for the rest of the game changes the way the game plays. Strangling Soot would not make my Cube without Flashback, probably even if it cost 2 mana. The ability to get card advantage through removal really is key to the card. But yes, I suppose your Cube might play it regardless.
4 mana, and later 6, to not effect the card when so many of our effects do similar things, is just a tough sell at the speed of most Pauper cubes. The card is beautiful and I support you trying it just fine, but I think it is important for you to remember what you plan on searching for and how much better searching for it is than just drawing it through more traditional card advantage.
EDIT: I may have misunderstood what you were getting at, sorry. I would strongly, strongly discourage almost any card I listed other than possibly Soot and Feeling for your Cube. Rally does not feel like fair Magic at all, and stands out to me as basically how I get around my opponents doing normal busted things in Innistrad limited. I can think of more than one game where my opponent dropped what we both thought was a game-ending bomb that entirely broke my board state, only for me to draw into Rally and bring them down from like 15 life. Travel Prep almost feels fair, but I did have one friend tell me that he felt like EOT Midnight Haunting into turn 4 Travel Prep/Flashback in Innistrad draft felt more busted than anything he did throughout the Legacy Cube on MTGO. When these cards are good, they're REAL good.
I think you're in the clear to test Teachings. It's sweet and OK, but pretty far from broken IMO. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if it were too slow for your Cube.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)