So if I have a tribal cube, are slivers worth putting in? After M14 especially the Naya colors have a lot of common slivers. I usually reduce the number of removals, so more slivers could be on the field at once. Still worth it to include creatures that aren't good by themselves like Talon Sliver?
I have been looking through gatherer for cards that interact with lands, I've found a couple of really nice ones. Now I'm just going to cut the reprints and the worse versions really similar ones, I think I might be able to make it into a 160-180 card cube.
Edit: the thing that shocked me was that abundance of cards in Blue.
I'd lighten up on the landwalk especially if you don't have that much removal. It's sucky to play green and your opponents first three dudes all have forestwalk.
While Commander is my primary focus in Magic I have been working on a pauper cube for the past 3 months as a side project. It has been a labour of love, and I have really been enjoying the entire experience. Thanks for everyone that has posted in this thread over the years and it has been a great help.
The first build of my cube is just about finished and I plan to give my experiences and add to the discussion in the future.
I'm actually sort of surprised some of those cards weren't in there from the start. Some of those cards I would consider staples even at 360. I think the only card's in that list I'm not too keen of would be Gorilla War Cry and Lava Burst.
Feel free to take a look at my Cubelist - I've been at 450 for quite some time and have been updating it in parallel with a lot of this boards opinions
I guess if you're in the market for an awful version of pyrotechnics for some reason?
If this is in reference to Rock Slide, I would have to disagree. It's actually been really good. It's a bit more versatile than Pyrotechnics since it can be cast for any amount of damage at instant speed. It's only downside is that you can't use it to kill utility creatures, but those aren't incredibly common and red has a lot of other resources to deal with those. You should give it a try, you might be impressed.
It's probably in reference to Lava Storm. But if not,Rock Slide is definitely not as strong as Pyrotechnics but Pyrotechnics is a pretty solid sweeper and certainly a staple, so being worse isn't that big of a deal.
I really don't think it's that much worse. It's pretty clear that utility creatures are few and far between and dealing with them isn't very difficult. It's the reason no one runs arrest anymore. The ability to deal with utility creature's just isn't needed most of the time. However, being able to cast Rock Slide for 3 or 4 mana can be a big deal in getting you to the late game. Even casting it as a 3 mana more conditional Fire/Ice is still very good for pauper.
I was talking about lava storm, sorry for the confusion.
I do run rock slide, it's not bad.
I used to run pyrotechnics too, it's just a matter of space and how many/which kinds of burn spells I want. Rock slide can go in the Ux "as much of my stuff as possible can be done at instant speed" deck I (try to) support.
However, rock slide's inability to hit fliers is really lame.
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I was talking about lava storm, sorry for the confusion.
I do run rock slide, it's not bad.
I used to run pyrotechnics too, it's just a matter of space and how many/which kinds of burn spells I want. Rock slide can go in the Ux "as much of my stuff as possible can be done at instant speed" deck I (try to) support.
However, rock slide's inability to hit fliers is really lame.
This is actually very true. In fact, I always forget that and try to cast it on fliers. And i actually forgot it while discussing the card just now haha
It has only been drafted a few times and I haven't gone through the process of adding my foils/alters to the pimp charts on Cube Tutor but you can get a look at the deck. It has been an absolute blast so far and I know it has a LONG way to go, but I am really happy with the process and the adventure of getting the cube "just right," and then watching it evolve as new sets come along.
While I'm posting I might as well ask my next burning question. What size do you all like for your cubes? Right now mine is at 360 and is meant to be drafted by 8 people. In everyone's experience is it best to have the cube (especially a pauper cube) set up like this? No cards left over after splitting up the packs (in a 8 person draft)? Or are people of the opinion that running 400 or 420 is better - not enough to make the cube draftable by 10 people at once, but giving a sort of randomness or uniqueness to each draft as there will inevitably be cards left out of the mix?
While I'm posting I might as well ask my next burning question. What size do you all like for your cubes? Right now mine is at 360 and is meant to be drafted by 8 people. In everyone's experience is it best to have the cube (especially a pauper cube) set up like this? No cards left over after splitting up the packs (in a 8 person draft)? Or are people of the opinion that running 400 or 420 is better - not enough to make the cube draftable by 10 people at once, but giving a sort of randomness or uniqueness to each draft as there will inevitably be cards left out of the mix?
I think most people here probably have 360 card cubes. I personally prefer 450 cards - it makes drafts slightly less predictable, and you have plenty of space to try out cards / archetypes that are fun but not necessarily "staples" without sacrificing too much card quality. Honestly, there's no real reason for any particular cube size, and it's much more enjoyable to let your cube naturally grow or shrink to whatever size works best for you.
Are there any cards you'd want to run, that look and feel common, but aren't? I'm looking specifically at elvish archers. One of this card's printings that lacks an expansion symbol could definitely pass for a common. The card is cubable but not amazing, so I can let it go, but I feel like it should be acceptable to include in pauper cube if you want.
What do you think? Are there other cards in a similar situation?
I expect people's responses to be some combination of "slippery slope" and "it's your cube do what you want"
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I guess you get what you expect but you only get it because it's the only "correct" answer. It's your cube and you can do whatever you want with it but including cards that have never been printed as commons breaks the definition of pauper cube. This is in no way shape or form "wrong" but you're basically creating your own cube format in doing so. Also, because of varying opinions on rarity and "What feels like a pauper card" there's really no way for multiple people to deem what would be acceptable as a common other than Wizard's themselves. For example, you feel like Elvish Archers is a common level card but if someone replied saying they thought it was definitely an uncommon card would you then not include it?
I guess you get what you expect but you only get it because it's the only "correct" answer. It's your cube and you can do whatever you want with it but including cards that have never been printed as commons breaks the definition of pauper cube. This is in no way shape or form "wrong" but you're basically creating your own cube format in doing so. Also, because of varying opinions on rarity and "What feels like a pauper card" there's really no way for multiple people to deem what would be acceptable as a common other than Wizard's themselves. For example, you feel like Elvish Archers is a common level card but if someone replied saying they thought it was definitely an uncommon card would you then not include it?
Similarly, what it means to be "common" has drastically changed as Wizards' design principles have changed - many of the staple cards we have are older cards that Wizards would only print right now at uncommon or rare, if they would be printed at all. There really isn't a good metric for determining what a "common" is other than the fact that descriptively (for better or worse), some cards have been printed at common rarity. I guess you could maybe use New World Order / current Wizards design principles to figure out what cards Wizards should / would consider common right now, but you'd end up with a very different looking cube as a result.
It has only been drafted a few times and I haven't gone through the process of adding my foils/alters to the pimp charts on Cube Tutor but you can get a look at the deck. It has been an absolute blast so far and I know it has a LONG way to go, but I am really happy with the process and the adventure of getting the cube "just right," and then watching it evolve as new sets come along.
While I'm posting I might as well ask my next burning question. What size do you all like for your cubes? Right now mine is at 360 and is meant to be drafted by 8 people. In everyone's experience is it best to have the cube (especially a pauper cube) set up like this? No cards left over after splitting up the packs (in a 8 person draft)? Or are people of the opinion that running 400 or 420 is better - not enough to make the cube draftable by 10 people at once, but giving a sort of randomness or uniqueness to each draft as there will inevitably be cards left out of the mix?
Thanks for the input & the warm welcome.
The cube looks pretty good! It's missing a few staples that you'll want to look out for in the future. For example, your White section is missing Guardian of the Guildpact, which is arguably the best card in pauper cube right now. For more information on staples, you'll want to check out the "Pauper Power Rankings," or whatever they're called. They're in the Pauper Cube Resources -> Projects tabs in the first post of this thread. That's a good place to look when you want staples in each of your colors, like Flood, Disturbed Burial, Rancor, Pestilence, etc. You've got a great collection of staples already, but if you wanted to increase the overall power level of your cube, acquiring staples is a good, foundational place to start. From there you can decide which cards you enjoy playing with the most, what areas need the most improvement, what archetypes you'd like to build into the cube, etc.
One other thing of note: I noticed you're not running any of the Ravnica bouncelands (e.g., Izzet Boilerworks). Those are generally considered to be a little stronger than the guildgates, and I'd advise running those over the guildgates if you have to pick just one (personally, I'd include both).
To answer your other questions, the short answer is "anywhere between 360-450 is normal." The long answer is that most cubes around here keep it at 360. The strength of low numbers, like 360, is that they will give you the most consistent draft environment with the highest density of powerful cards. The downside is that, the lower you go, the less flexibility you have in terms of constructing archetypes and building outside of the requisite staple cards. Conversely, bigger cubes have plenty of room to include more complex archetypes and allow you to include lots of interesting cards that you otherwise wouldn't be able to play. This comes at the cost of diluting the cube, decreasing consistency (or, increasing variability if you prefer to place a positive spin on it!), and making it less likely that you'll get to draft specific pet cards you want to play with. There's no objectively right or wrong answer--it's just something you have to play around with until you create a healthy draft environment that's fun for you and your players. I modeled my cube off of Adam Styborski's--it's probably the most famous pauper cube; you can find it on his wordpress website called "The Pauper Cube"--which started off at 360 and got bumped up to 420. My own cube is currently at 420 but I'm just now moving it up to 450 to see what happens. No matter what you end up doing, 360 is a solid starting point, and you may very well end up wanting to stay at 360.
Feel free to ask if you'd like any more ideas on what you can do to improve the cube! I'm glad it's been rewarding to build and play
For people who care about modern-bordered card frames; the Jace v. Vraska Duel Decks are on Gatherer, and Consume Strength and Memory Lapse are being reprinted for the first time in a modern frame. Consume Strength especially looks really nice in a modern frame. Also, Putrid Leech is getting (sort of weird) new art.
I was thinking about adding Goblin Bombardment it has the common feel at least for me, only if you combine it with something like sprout swarm or the midnight guard +presence of gond combo it becomes ridiculous but then again those cards win games by themselves so I don't think it would change that much. And it would fit in really nice with BR-sacrifice I'm running or Red control (great synergy with fading/echo creatures.)
Goblin Bombardment doesn't feel that common at all, because it's such a powerful effect, even without mass token generators. It would be one of the most powerful red cards we'd have if it were common. Barrage of Expendables feels like a bit more common version of that affect since it's mana-limited.
I modeled my cube off of Adam Styborski's--it's probably the most famous pauper cube; you can find it on his wordpress website called "The Pauper Cube"--which started off at 360 and got bumped up to 420.
I really wish Adam Styborski wrote about his pauper cube more than in his per-set update articles on GatheringMagic. His cube's almost certainly the most "popular" pauper cube (a ton of people start out with pauper cubing by copying his list), but it's a substantially different cube from most of the pauper cubes on here. It would be interesting to hear his views on including cards that a lot of us here would probably view as pretty underwhelming / not including cards that a lot of us here would probably view as near-staples.
So if I have a tribal cube, are slivers worth putting in? After M14 especially the Naya colors have a lot of common slivers. I usually reduce the number of removals, so more slivers could be on the field at once. Still worth it to include creatures that aren't good by themselves like Talon Sliver?
I'd lighten up on the landwalk especially if you don't have that much removal. It's sucky to play green and your opponents first three dudes all have forestwalk.
While Commander is my primary focus in Magic I have been working on a pauper cube for the past 3 months as a side project. It has been a labour of love, and I have really been enjoying the entire experience. Thanks for everyone that has posted in this thread over the years and it has been a great help.
The first build of my cube is just about finished and I plan to give my experiences and add to the discussion in the future.
Cheers!
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
If you're looking for that type of card, Rock Slide has done very well for people here.
Secondly, I'm thinking of taking the plunge and upping my cube from 420 to 450 cards. What do you guys think of the changes I'm considering?
Blue
Black
REMOVING:
Corrupted Zendikon
Red
REMOVING:
Green
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
If this is in reference to Rock Slide, I would have to disagree. It's actually been really good. It's a bit more versatile than Pyrotechnics since it can be cast for any amount of damage at instant speed. It's only downside is that you can't use it to kill utility creatures, but those aren't incredibly common and red has a lot of other resources to deal with those. You should give it a try, you might be impressed.
I really don't think it's that much worse. It's pretty clear that utility creatures are few and far between and dealing with them isn't very difficult. It's the reason no one runs arrest anymore. The ability to deal with utility creature's just isn't needed most of the time. However, being able to cast Rock Slide for 3 or 4 mana can be a big deal in getting you to the late game. Even casting it as a 3 mana more conditional Fire/Ice is still very good for pauper.
Edit: I have no idea how to link split cards ><
I do run rock slide, it's not bad.
I used to run pyrotechnics too, it's just a matter of space and how many/which kinds of burn spells I want. Rock slide can go in the Ux "as much of my stuff as possible can be done at instant speed" deck I (try to) support.
However, rock slide's inability to hit fliers is really lame.
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
This is actually very true. In fact, I always forget that and try to cast it on fliers. And i actually forgot it while discussing the card just now haha
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Here is the link to my cube as it stands now.
It has only been drafted a few times and I haven't gone through the process of adding my foils/alters to the pimp charts on Cube Tutor but you can get a look at the deck. It has been an absolute blast so far and I know it has a LONG way to go, but I am really happy with the process and the adventure of getting the cube "just right," and then watching it evolve as new sets come along.
While I'm posting I might as well ask my next burning question. What size do you all like for your cubes? Right now mine is at 360 and is meant to be drafted by 8 people. In everyone's experience is it best to have the cube (especially a pauper cube) set up like this? No cards left over after splitting up the packs (in a 8 person draft)? Or are people of the opinion that running 400 or 420 is better - not enough to make the cube draftable by 10 people at once, but giving a sort of randomness or uniqueness to each draft as there will inevitably be cards left out of the mix?
Thanks for the input & the warm welcome.
I think most people here probably have 360 card cubes. I personally prefer 450 cards - it makes drafts slightly less predictable, and you have plenty of space to try out cards / archetypes that are fun but not necessarily "staples" without sacrificing too much card quality. Honestly, there's no real reason for any particular cube size, and it's much more enjoyable to let your cube naturally grow or shrink to whatever size works best for you.
What do you think? Are there other cards in a similar situation?
I expect people's responses to be some combination of "slippery slope" and "it's your cube do what you want"
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
Similarly, what it means to be "common" has drastically changed as Wizards' design principles have changed - many of the staple cards we have are older cards that Wizards would only print right now at uncommon or rare, if they would be printed at all. There really isn't a good metric for determining what a "common" is other than the fact that descriptively (for better or worse), some cards have been printed at common rarity. I guess you could maybe use New World Order / current Wizards design principles to figure out what cards Wizards should / would consider common right now, but you'd end up with a very different looking cube as a result.
The cube looks pretty good! It's missing a few staples that you'll want to look out for in the future. For example, your White section is missing Guardian of the Guildpact, which is arguably the best card in pauper cube right now. For more information on staples, you'll want to check out the "Pauper Power Rankings," or whatever they're called. They're in the Pauper Cube Resources -> Projects tabs in the first post of this thread. That's a good place to look when you want staples in each of your colors, like Flood, Disturbed Burial, Rancor, Pestilence, etc. You've got a great collection of staples already, but if you wanted to increase the overall power level of your cube, acquiring staples is a good, foundational place to start. From there you can decide which cards you enjoy playing with the most, what areas need the most improvement, what archetypes you'd like to build into the cube, etc.
One other thing of note: I noticed you're not running any of the Ravnica bouncelands (e.g., Izzet Boilerworks). Those are generally considered to be a little stronger than the guildgates, and I'd advise running those over the guildgates if you have to pick just one (personally, I'd include both).
To answer your other questions, the short answer is "anywhere between 360-450 is normal." The long answer is that most cubes around here keep it at 360. The strength of low numbers, like 360, is that they will give you the most consistent draft environment with the highest density of powerful cards. The downside is that, the lower you go, the less flexibility you have in terms of constructing archetypes and building outside of the requisite staple cards. Conversely, bigger cubes have plenty of room to include more complex archetypes and allow you to include lots of interesting cards that you otherwise wouldn't be able to play. This comes at the cost of diluting the cube, decreasing consistency (or, increasing variability if you prefer to place a positive spin on it!), and making it less likely that you'll get to draft specific pet cards you want to play with. There's no objectively right or wrong answer--it's just something you have to play around with until you create a healthy draft environment that's fun for you and your players. I modeled my cube off of Adam Styborski's--it's probably the most famous pauper cube; you can find it on his wordpress website called "The Pauper Cube"--which started off at 360 and got bumped up to 420. My own cube is currently at 420 but I'm just now moving it up to 450 to see what happens. No matter what you end up doing, 360 is a solid starting point, and you may very well end up wanting to stay at 360.
Feel free to ask if you'd like any more ideas on what you can do to improve the cube! I'm glad it's been rewarding to build and play
Goblin Bombardment doesn't feel that common at all, because it's such a powerful effect, even without mass token generators. It would be one of the most powerful red cards we'd have if it were common. Barrage of Expendables feels like a bit more common version of that affect since it's mana-limited.
I really wish Adam Styborski wrote about his pauper cube more than in his per-set update articles on GatheringMagic. His cube's almost certainly the most "popular" pauper cube (a ton of people start out with pauper cubing by copying his list), but it's a substantially different cube from most of the pauper cubes on here. It would be interesting to hear his views on including cards that a lot of us here would probably view as pretty underwhelming / not including cards that a lot of us here would probably view as near-staples.