MTG Salvation

Hello

I received a bunch of nice looking proxies which is why my list has gone from a casual multilayer cube to a full on powered experience.

Another member of my regular Playgroup maintains a really well established 465 unpowered cube which we draft regularly. So this cube is more for a change of pace and to mix it up now and then. I am trying to keep it at 360 so as to not dilute the experience too much and make sure everyone gets a chance to do something broken.

Our first play experience went well but there are still some pretty big gaps in the list which i hope to slowly fix via Puca trade.

Without further ado, here is my list:


http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/27879

White

In the mail which I will be excited to add when they arrive are currently:

• Oona's Prowler
  
• Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
  
• Mana Vault
  
• Hero of Bladehold

I feel the biggest gaps in the list are:

• Sylvan Library
  
• Recurring Nightmare
  
• Elspth, Knight Errant
  
• Treachery
  
• Mystical Tutor
  
• Basalt Monolith
  
• Koth of the Hammer

(only just realised this after seeing the top 20 voting for red)


I also plan to pick up a Ral Zarek so it's worth adding the Time Vault I have.

The colour coding on cube tutor is the purple cards (maybe) are either new to my cube, cards I am not 100% sure on or cards that I plan to cut for something on my Wants List (Puca Wants) once I have the spare points.

The Puca Mail coded cards are already on their way


Final number should be close to 360 but I don't mind having a little over while I am still in the developing stage. I haven't sully locked in my archetypes and I want to see if some of them work or how popular they are.

For example I have Red Blue as the "Combo" combination with Splinter Twin/Kikki Jikki and Pestermite/Deceiver. Possible rotation to Time Vault/Ral Zarek if people get sick of that.

I'm not into the Time Vault combo because Time Vault is so useless on it's own.

Do you really Elesh Norn and Iona in a 360 cube? That seems like too much fat for a mostly non-cheating color.

Cheers,
rant

Quote from rantipole »

Do you really Elesh Norn and Iona in a 360 cube? That seems like too much fat for a mostly non-cheating color.

Cheers,
rant

That's a pretty good point. I don't think Iona will survive long term but my playgroup doesn't really have any experience with her so I think it will be nice of them to have that experience of locking someone out with an early reanimate

The only fatty cheating we are used to is the reanimator archetype and that was often an Esper deck in our regular unpowered cube (The Steel Sphinx).

Officially moved her to the "maybe" section which is pretty much a death knell

So I have cleaned up my list to include only cards I actually own or are in the mail.

I will use this thread to maintain my want list and show off my grand plan so my cube tutor list is cleaner.

Wants:
Elspeth, Knight-Errant for either big expensive Elspeth or Entreat the Angels. If they both don't earn their keep I also have a copy of Myth realized I am curious to test (perhaps for Karakas which is only in for short term novelty reasons).
Containment Priest for Cloistered Youth.
Baneslayer Angel for Iona. As Rantipole pointed out, probably too much fat in white.
Daze
Treachery
Phantasmal Image
Opposition
Recurring Nightmare
Volrath's Stronghold
Goblin Welder
Garruk Wildspeaker
Oath of Druids
Rancor
Song of the Dryads
Survival of the Fittest
Sylvan Library
Thragtusk
Tooth and Nail
Worldly Tutor
Wurmcoil Engine
Thran Dynamo
Grim Monolith
Ancient Tomb

Some of these are pretty easy to get but I have been distracted by Modern Masters 2015 and finishing a few modern decks.

There is also a bunch of stuff I wont list here that I want to try, perhaps as an expansion to support storm and other combos.

Picked up a Grave Titan which feels nice to finish the beefy part of blacks mana curve.

More surprising was being able to get a Chain Lightning from Legends. That's not something you see everyday in Korea and means red is in a place I am pretty happy with.

I still have a Welder on my want list for red but that feels like I would need to get the Wurmcoil Engine to go with it. Both are in the Red Commander deck which I am hoping will be discounted eventually.

Received an Oona's Prowler yesterday and have a Sylvan Library on the way.

This will leave Recurring Nightmare as the last BIG hole in my cube (IMHO), although I am leaning towards adding Wurmcoil Engine to that list.

Really excited for Holiday Cube season, it gives a ton of data and you get actual videos rather than just peoples cube tutor draft lists.

Quote from TheAngryhermit »

So I have cleaned up my list to include only cards I actually own or are in the mail.

I will use this thread to maintain my want list and show off my grand plan so my cube tutor list is cleaner.

Wants:
Elspeth, Knight-Errant for either big expensive Elspeth or Entreat the Angels. If they both don't earn their keep I also have a copy of Myth realized I am curious to test (perhaps for Karakas which is only in for short term novelty reasons).
Containment Priest for Cloistered Youth.
Baneslayer Angel for Iona. As Rantipole pointed out, probably too much fat in white.
Daze
Treachery
Phantasmal Image
Opposition
Recurring Nightmare
Volrath's Stronghold
Goblin Welder
Garruk Wildspeaker
Oath of Druids
Rancor
Song of the Dryads
Survival of the Fittest
Sylvan Library
Thragtusk
Tooth and Nail
Worldly Tutor
Wurmcoil Engine
Thran Dynamo
Grim Monolith
Ancient Tomb

Some of these are pretty easy to get but I have been distracted by Modern Masters 2015 and finishing a few modern decks.

There is also a bunch of stuff I wont list here that I want to try, perhaps as an expansion to support storm and other combos.

I missed this post earlier. I'll bring you a Rancor this Sunday.

I don't know how you feel about gold-bordered cards, but a lot of the cards in your want list are available at a fraction of their usual cost as World Championship editions: http://www.trollandtoad.com/Magic-The-Gathering/8730.html

Quote from Spike Rogue »

I don't know how you feel about gold-bordered cards, but a lot of the cards in your want list are available at a fraction of their usual cost as World Championship editions: http://www.trollandtoad.com/Magic-The-Gathering/8730.html

None of the cards feel unobtainable, >$50 or >35 and not on the reserve list then I would be very tempted to go with World Championship editions. As it stands I have a lot of puca points as well as potential points. Just means being patient, easier said than done

I have added Survival of the fittest to the "very important to get" list.

I might have gone overboard with Origins additions to my want list but I think the flip Walkers are interesting enough that I have added all 5 for now. Something like Jace I expect to become Jace architect of Thought after a bit of testing.

Want List

Gold/Lands and Colorless
Vindicate will replace Tidehollow Sculler
Wurmcoil Engine will replace Spellskite
Thran Dynamo will replace Mishras Workshop
Mana Confluence will replace Evolving Wilds
Grim Monolith will replace Nevnyrells Disk
Ancient Tomb will replace ??

Blue
?Jace (flip walker) will replace Jace Memory adept
Daze will replace Repeal
Treachery will replace Impulse
Phantasmal Image will replace Icefall Regent
Opposition will replace Compulsive research

Red
?Chandra flip walker for Shrine of Burning Rage
Exquisite Firecraft/Molten Vortex will replace Chandra Pyromaster
Goblin Welder will replace Reckless Waif

White
Baneslayer Angel will replace karmic Guide
Reveilark will replace Iona
Gideon (flip walker)will replace Entreat the Angels
Containment Priest will replace Cloistered Youth
Elspeth, Knight Errant will replace Elspth Suns champion

Green
Farseek will replace rampant Growth
Fyndhorn Elves will replace Elves of Deep Shadow
Survival of the Fittest will replace Tooth and Nail which will replace Call of the herd
?Evolutionary leap to maybe replace birthing pod
Rancor will replace Nissa World Waker
Garruk Wildspeaker will replace Gaes Cradle
Song of the Dryads will replace Beast Within
Worldly Tutor will replace Become Immense
Nissa Flip Walker will replace Troll Ascetic

Black
Liliana (flip walker) will replace Brain Maggot
Recurring Nightmare will replace Living Death
Volrath's Stronghold will replace Putrid Imp
Toxic Deluge will replace Necropotence



I expect to obtain the Flip Walkers from 2 months of drafting hopefully and Elspeth is in the mail. The rest comes to a total of 62,601 puca points or $626.
It's going to be a bit of a long term project because I also have Modern decks I want to finish and a couple of EDH decks in mind. Looks like a fun challenge though.

I like almost all of this. I'm not at all sold on cutting Worldwaker and I don't see the need for Containment Priest. At this size, blue is likely too tight for Spellskite but you could play it there instead of cutting it.

Cheers,
rant

Quote from rantipole »

I like almost all of this. I'm not at all sold on cutting Worldwaker and I don't see the need for Containment Priest. At this size, blue is likely too tight for Spellskite but you could play it there instead of cutting it.

Cheers,
rant

Cheers, your input is very much anticipated. Cutting Rancor for Nissa seems like something I was supposed to do rather than wanted to. It's an easy come back if the new Nissa isn't as good as I think it is.

I have no experience with containment priest so was just adding it based on hype. Quite happy not to have to acquire one

If Delver doesn't work out then I guess that will be the sacrifice for Spellskite.

Want List

Gold/Lands and Colorless
Vindicate will replace Tidehollow Sculler
Wurmcoil Engine will replace Spellskite
Thran Dynamo will replace Mishras Workshop
Mana Confluence will replace Evolving Wilds
Grim Monolith will replace Nevnyrells Disk


Blue
Jace Beleran will replace Jace Memory adept
Daze will replace Repeal
Treachery will replace Impulse
Phantasmal Image will replace Icefall Regent
Opposition will replace Compulsive research

Red
Chandra flip walker for Shrine of Burning Rage
Exquisite Firecraft/Molten Vortex will replace Chandra Pyromaster
Goblin Welder will replace Reckless Waif

White
Baneslayer Angel will replace karmic Guide
Reveilark will replace Iona
Gideon (flip walker)will replace Elspth Suns champion

Green
Farseek will replace rampant Growth
Fyndhorn Elves will replace Elves of Deep Shadow
Survival of the Fittest will replace Tooth and Nail which will replace Call of the herd
Evolutionary leap to maybe replace Birthing Pod
Garruk Wildspeaker will replace Gaes Cradle
Song of the Dryads will replace Beast Within
Worldly Tutor will replace Become Immense
Nissa Flip Walker will replace Troll Ascetic

Black
Liliana (flip walker) will replace Brain Maggot
Recurring Nightmare will replace Living Death
Volrath's Stronghold will replace Putrid Imp
Toxic Deluge will replace Necropotence

I'm with Rantipole on Nissa Worldwaker, it played really well for me when I played your cube as part of your green super ramp package. I cut Cloistered Youth myself a while back, not because it necessarily underperformed, but it does tend to be underplayed because it's a flip card.

I don't think Rampant Growth or Farseek is particularly necessary, so I'd say that's a better cut for Evolutionary Leap than Pod.

The rest of your changes look great to me, I can't wait to try your cube with these changes!

I'm not quite ready to cut the ramp just because the Green section is in such a flux. it's by far the section that has the most "scheduled" changes so things haven't been settled enough for me to really define it's identity. Will it be elf acceleration or spell/land ramp, i'm not sure.

With the flip cards I think the checklist system makes them much easier to manage but people just need experience with the system. Hopefully everyone opens lots of flip planeswalkers this Origin limited season and gets used to it.

Nissa Worldwaker is safe now,I knew she was cool but I'm glad others have found her to also be good.

Want List

Gold, Lands and Colorless
Vindicate will replace Tidehollow Sculler
Thran Dynamo will replace Mishras Workshop
Mana Confluence will replace Evolving Wilds
Grim Monolith will replace Nevnyrells Disk

Blue
Jace Flip Walker will replace Jace Memory Adept
Treachery will replace Impulse
Phantasmal Image will replace Icefall Regent
Daze will replace Compulsive research

Red
Chandra flip walker for Shrine of Burning Rage
Molten Vortex will replace Chandra Pyromaster
Goblin Welder will replace Reckless Waif

White
Baneslayer Angel will replace karmic Guide
Reveilark will replace Iona
Gideon (flip walker)will replace Elspth Suns champion

Green
Lotus Cobra will replace rampant Growth
Fyndhorn Elves will replace Elves of Deep Shadow
Survival of the Fittest will replace Call of the herd
Evolutionary leap to replace Birthing Pod
Garruk Wildspeaker will replace Gaes Cradle
Song of the Dryads will replace Beast Within
Green Suns Zenith will replace Become Immense
Nissa Flip Walker will replace Troll Ascetic

Black
Liliana (flip walker) will replace Brain Maggot
Recurring Nightmare will replace Living Death
Volrath's Stronghold will replace Putrid Imp
Toxic Deluge will replace Necropotence

Honourable Mentions/On the fringe


Consecrated Sphinx
Jace Beleran/Jace Memory Adept

I have picked up a few of these and in some other cases have gotten cold feet about the changes. I don't want to lose Living Death from the cube and am not 100% certain on Molten Vortex/Evolutionary Leap.

A couple of the changes I haven't made just because I want to give the cards already in their more of a run. Cards like Shrine of Burning Rage, Mishra's Workshop and Iona are cards my playgroup seems pretty unfamiliar with in a powered cube environment so I want to let them get that experience before moving them to the sideboard/expansion.

I love the new sideboard feature on cube tutor as it allows the planning for an expansion to 10 players but also makes cuts less painful as they don't seem so final.

A surprisingly lot of Origins cards made it in and I have my eye on even more. Looks like I will have to make room for Hangerback walker eventually, I might be cheap and wait until he/she leaves standard


Wish List

Gold, Lands and Colorless
Vindicate (in the mail) will replace Tidehollow Sculler
Thran Dynamo will replace Mishras Workshop
Mana Confluence will replace Evolving Wilds
Grim Monolith will replace Nevnyrells Disk

Blue
Jace Flip Walker will replace Jace Belaran
Treachery will replace Impulse
Phantasmal Image will replace Icefall Regent
Daze will replace Compulsive research

Red
Goblin Welder will replace Reckless Waif

White
Reveilark will replace Iona
Gideon (flip walker)will replace Elspth Suns champion

Green
Lotus Cobra will replace rampant Growth
Fyndhorn Elves will replace Elves of Deep Shadow
Survival of the Fittest will replace Call of the herd
Garruk Wildspeaker will replace Gaes Cradle
Song of the Dryads will replace Beast Within
Green Suns Zenith will replace Become Immense
Nissa Flip Walker will replace Troll Ascetic

Black
Liliana (flip walker) will replace Brain Maggot
Recurring Nightmare will replace Putrid Imp
Toxic Deluge will replace Necropotence

These changes all look great except for one:

Jace Flip Walker will replace Jace Belaran

Baby Jace is still holding up surprisingly well as a source of card advantage or a wincon. I just lost a game to our mutual friend Quentin's Baby Jace's ultimate last weekend! Delver of Secrets is probably the first card I'd cut. It's just not that good as a one-of unless you're really going deep on the Prowess/"spells matter" archetype, and that's hard to support well even at 465. Clever Impersonator is probably also cuttable for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. FWIW, I've earmarked Waterfront Bouncer as my cut whenever I get a copy of the new Jace.

I think I will go with the clever impersonator cut. I am concerned about 3 Jaces taking up 6% of the blue cards. Delver isn't rated here but he is iconic and I have seen him do pretty good work in the holiday cube. I think he will fit well enough in Blue/Black and Red/Blue in this cube. 54% of my blue cards flip him and with a smaller cube size the density of equipment is higher so the floor on him isn't so bad.
Most other powered cubes have dropped him so there is definitely merit in there but I am close to assembling a storm expansion which also plays ok with him.

This is all pretty theoretical because I am in no rush to pay $40+ for an in print card right now. Older and cooler cards seem to give more bang for the buck.

Impersonator would be a better cut. Baby Jace is still very good (he contributed greatly to one of my wins in a draft yesterday).

Here a couple others I would quibble with:

Mana Confluence will replace Evolving Wilds

Evolving Wilds is a very good land. I run that and its fraternal twin Terramorphic Expanse (at 540). I would still run at least one at 360.

Goblin Welder will replace Reckless Waif

I love Welder, but Waif is good for red aggro. You have the right amount of 1-drops for aggro in red now, IMO. I might cut Eidolon of the Great Revel, who was pretty meh for us, instead.

Fyndhorn Elves will replace Elves of Deep Shadow

You already have Llanowar Elves and Elvish Mystic. Elves of Deep Shadow helps enable another color, which is important.

Survival of the Fittest will replace Call of the Herd
Garruk Wildspeaker will replace Gaea's Cradle

Call of the Herd is good. I'd look at replacing Vinelasher Kudzu. It's fine for me at 540 (though I wouldn't say it's great), but it doesn't strike me as a 360 powered card. I was going to suggest cutting Become Immense here but I see it's already on the chopping block. Maybe one of Channel, Exploration, and Fastbond, then? Having all 3 at 360 seems redundant, and there have to be games where Channel and Fastbond are just terrible.

The cards you're adding look very good and worth of addition.

I have slept on what you guys have said and I feel comfortable making some adjustments now. I see the light that Delver is too situational and space is tight.

Haven't worked out the colourless and lands, how do I fit in Hangerback Walker, Evolving Wilds and other questions will have to be answered next nap.

Wish List

Gold, Lands and Colorless
Thran Dynamo will replace Mind Stone
Mana Confluence will replace Mishras Workshop
Grim Monolith will replace Nevnyrells Disk
Hangerback Walker will replace Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (I like new Ulamog better for cube anyways)

Blue
Jace Flip Walker will replace Delver of Secrets
Treachery will replace Impulse
Phantasmal Image will replace Clever Impersonator
Daze will replace Compulsive research

Red
Goblin Welder will replace Reckless Waif

White
Reveilark will replace Iona
Gideon (flip walker)will replace Soltari Trooper
Relic Seeker will replace Cloistered Youth

Green
Lotus Cobra will replace rampant Growth
Survival of the Fittest will replace Troll Ascetic
Garruk Wildspeaker will replace Gaes Cradle
Song of the Dryads will replace Beast Within
Green Suns Zenith will replace Become Immense
Nissa Flip Walker will replace Vinelasher Kadzu

Black
Liliana (flip walker) will replace Brain Maggot
Recurring Nightmare will replace Putrid Imp
Toxic Deluge will replace Necropotence

Most of these changes look really good. You're making a lot of disciplined cuts, many of which I'd have a really hard time with. I don't think I could ever go down to 360.

A few I think you should reconsider:

Thran Dynamo will replace Mind Stone

Mind Stone is really good. Having the option to cash in a mana rock for a card later when you don't need the boost, or just need to dig for an answer is so handy. Some people are even talking about cutting Thran Dynamo for Hedron Archive because they like this effect so much. I think Basalt Monolith is a more expendable mana rock.

Hangerback Walker will replace Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Emrakaul seems like a better cut, but maybe you're just thinking about having the absolute scariest threat possible more than castability.

Agreed that Emrakul is a better cut. I plan to cut him for New Ulamog. Old Ulamog is a perfectly good card and a great curve-topper for ramp decks (in addition to the many ways to cheat him into play).

Updated the wish list as Vindicate has arrived

I only chose old Ulamog as the cut because I really like the new one and didn't want two Ulamogs. Is there such a thing as too many Ulamogs?

I want Emrakual in as the ultimate pay off for Show and Tell, Sneak attack, channel decks. Something exciting and sexy if not as consistent as old Ulamog.

Quote from TheAngryhermit »

Is there such a thing as too many Ulamogs?

I submit that there is not.

I want Emrakual in as the ultimate pay off for Show and Tell, Sneak attack, channel decks. Something exciting and sexy if not as consistent as old Ulamog.

Fair. I may leave Emrakul in when all is said and done. I don't play Channel, but you can't get much more epic than cheating an Emrakul into play somehow.