I'm a little bit disappointed you decided to cut your Polymorph + Dark Depths combo. Is there a reason to not let your cube grow by another 120-140 cards to allow the support of multiple archetypes?
I'm personally just reluctant to let some archetypes/ cards go.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
There were a couple of reasons the polymorph package left, and neither were due to underperformance. The deck works, and it works well. The problems are that it takes up a large amount of real estate to support, and that there are too many archetypes that compete for the payoff monsters. The cube has enough superfatties for sneak/show/eureka/tooth/oath/tinker/channel/order/grave/dance/etc to function, but with polymorph in there too, looking for the same finishers, there were too many decks and not enough fatties.
Yah that makes sense. I just hate to see good archetypes go.
I've drafted your cube quite a bit + looked over your past drafts and I really like a lot of the archetypes/ decks. I was never able to draft a successful Tezzert/ Welder Deck/ Workshop. Do you have an example?
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
1. Could Aluren be interesting? Cavern Harpy is usually needed (best along with the Wardens), but I’m not sure if it’s worth a slot. Glimpse of Nature is another route. Kor Skyfisher(GW Storm incoming) , Barrin, Tolarian Archmage, Man-o-War variants do have interaction if we were to explore already cubeable cards. (Does Eternal Witness + Sac outlet combo off?) (Man-o-War/Skyfisher + Panharmonicon for the memes)
2. BTW, after you had toned down the persist/counter combo package, I recalled an old time favorite: Geralf’s Messenger. Wonder if he’s good enough with Solemnity, Broodmoth...etc.
I would love to explore an Aluren combo if there was some more redundancy for the combo. But there's only one engine card, and it doesn't necessarily even win the game on the spot ...even when you have all the other pieces available.
Ya, Messenger is part of a couple of Undying combo engines, but I felt like I had too much support for that deck as it was. I want the combo to be competitive and be available to drafters, but not so omnipresent that it's auto-draftable with little/no effort.
Hi wtwlf! I noticed you reintroduced some of the colorless Eldrazi back in the Kaldheim update. Did you add Wastes back in your basics pool for the change, or just running it off the filters + incidental colorless mana generators for now?
1. Could Aluren be interesting? Cavern Harpy is usually needed (best along with the Wardens), but I’m not sure if it’s worth a slot. Glimpse of Nature is another route. Kor Skyfisher(GW Storm incoming) , Barrin, Tolarian Archmage, Man-o-War variants do have interaction if we were to explore already cubeable cards. (Does Eternal Witness + Sac outlet combo off?) (Man-o-War/Skyfisher + Panharmonicon for the memes)
2. BTW, after you had toned down the persist/counter combo package, I recalled an old time favorite: Geralf’s Messenger. Wonder if he’s good enough with Solemnity, Broodmoth...etc.
3. Loved your KHM review!
Disclaimer - I'm no expert in cube at this. I just like to think about crazy cube archetype ideas.
To extend your thoughts on Aluren. I thought about this card for a bit and I thought one route was Blue-Green Kinnan Creature Storm:
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
They started feeling super "meh" to me. Tons of creatures that cost more than 2 mana guarantee value in the face of removal nowadays, so it didn't feel like a great deal nearly as often as they used to. I prefer my removal to either be more flexible (Rider, Downfall), generate card advantage (Chupacabra, Shriekmaw), or be cheap enough that it trades up in mana against 2cc creatures (Thirst, Push, etc). So my default black removal is 1 mana or less, can kill more than just creatures, or is strapped to a body.
They're in no way bad, but they started to feel less and less efficient over time, so I prefer the other options. And black has so much removal that I never feel short. But there's always a chance that cards like GFTT and HA could come back in at some point. They're perfectly fine cards.
They started feeling super "meh" to me. Tons of creatures that cost more than 2 mana guarantee value in the face of removal nowadays, so it didn't feel like a great deal nearly as often as they used to. I prefer my removal to either be more flexible (Rider, Downfall), generate card advantage (Chupacabra, Shriekmaw), or be cheap enough that it trades up in mana against 2cc creatures (Thirst, Push, etc). So my default black removal is 1 mana or less, can kill more than just creatures, or is strapped to a body.
They're in no way bad, but they started to feel less and less efficient over time, so I prefer the other options. And black has so much removal that I never feel short. But there's always a chance that cards like GFTT and HA could come back in at some point. They're perfectly fine cards.
People always roll their eyes when they see the Roast in my Legacy/ Cube lists. It is in no way a good card, but I find 2 CMC removal is a bit of a necessity.
I've noticed your cube has become a lot more fair with less storm, polymorph, and persist combo as a result, creature combat is more important. I'm wondering, how are the aggressive decks pushing through the damage + how are the control decks answering two drops?
I don't claim to be an expert.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
@wtwlf I think that’s very fair - my list started as your 540 from 2017-2018 and I’ve phased out the “nonblack” removal from my list because it feels too narrow/random feelsbad moments. Without those, I lose cards like Sheiekmaw and have to make up for it in other ways.
@Breathe - There's still plenty of removal and roadblocks for control decks to function against creature decks. And aggro decks don't necessarily want Doom Blades for pushing damage, there's plenty of other options for removal, reach, and evasion for performing that role. And, the cube churns out just as many unfair decks as it used to. There's still just as many decks at the table cheating monsters into play, storming off and persisting infinitely as there used to be. I think you've misinterpreted what the recent changes were for and the effect on the meta.
@Sky - Ya, I can see that. Like I said, I don't think they're bad and I don't fault anyone for playing Doom Blade variants. They're just not as appealing to me as they used to be, and we've opted for different forms of removal that we've found to be more effective.
So, I've cut my cube down to 450 cards. In the time playing the cube at the expanded size(s), it's been a great success. I aimed to change the dynamic of the cube by incorporating deeper archetype play and supporting infinite combos ...and the list was a success in achieving those goals. However, with all the focus on combo play being not only possible but also competitive, I realized that it's not the style of play I actually prefer.
When I was playing my 540/630 lists, I faced a fork in the road. With the powerlevel of the cards being released as high as they are (were?) in recent years, I felt the need to modify the structure of the cube in one of two ways. I either needed to trim the cube down in size to close the gap between the best cards and the worst cards so that the average powerlevel of the cards in the cube would be more competitive with one another, OR, I had to introduce combo play as a counter to card's increasing intrinsic powerlevels. I opted to go with the latter, and combat Okos and Teferis and Uros with Storm wins and infinite combos. It was a realistic way to try and fight the newly-printed high-power cards. And it worked. Combo decks were not only supported, but they were draftable and powerful, and left a lot of "fair" decks in the dust ...even if they were full of great cards.
Despite those decks doing a lot of winning, and having a good time drafting/deckbuilding those kinds of decks, they weren't as fun and interactive to pilot (at least for me anyways). It turns out that I greatly prefer the more conventional aggro/midrange/control paradigm (with tempo decks and archetype builds splashed in). So I wanted to go back and try Option 1, and see if I can still manage balanced play by reducing the cube size and narrowing the powerlevel gap that way. In short, that's what this change accomplishes.
It also happens to solve two other smaller problems for my playgroup. At 720, even with Impulse Drafting as an event structure, we only saw 50% of the cube list. With so much of the real estate dedicated to combo and archetype play, it could be difficult to navigate the heads-up drafts effectively, and the events felt full of narrow cards. Sealed Deck was even worse. I love Sealed events, and the 720 combo cube was just not conducive to supporting that kind of play. At 450, my heads-up events will use 80% of the cube, and my Sealed Decks won't be bogged down by combo-centric pieces. The decision has certainly been impacted by the Covid lockdown as well. We have less and less time to play, with fewer and fewer people each time. The drafting frequency certainly influences the desire to have more interactive play, and less "oops, I win" kinds of moments. I don't mind those when we're drafting multiple times per gathering with a full table of 8 every weekend ...but when you wait a month to get a small group together, getting Vaulted or Twinned out after playing a solid, competitive game just doesn't produce the best feelings. Hopefully playing a more conventional theater-centric format will make those events a bit more interactive.
720 was a huge success overall. I set out to create an environment where combo decks could compete, we could take full advantage of Sight/Glimpse/Impulse Drafts to mitigate the size problem; and to that aim, it played very well. I discovered over these past couple years that I prefer more interactive theater play, and aim to play a tighter list with a flatter powerlevel that reverts back to that style of play. I certainly don't fault anyone for continuing to support combo, and there's absolutely a chance some (or all!) of those themes could return in the future. But right now, I'm going to focus with tinkering the 450 list into a balanced and competitive environment again. So bear with me while I continue to rebalance the cube and get it right where we want it to be!
Great thoughtful post! I loved seeing the combos you supported. They often gave me some ideas for trying to cram combo into my 465 cube. That said, I'm happy to have our cubes back to being close to the same size.
I can't wait to see what your final 450 looks like.
Edit: Nevermind. I see the list is up on CubeCobra. Lots of mana fixing now, I notice.
First of all, thank you so much wtwlf for being the pillar of the cube community. I always look forward to reading your article/ cube changes to draw inspirations. I really liked trying to draft the combo based archetypes in your cube on CubeCobra.
I agree with your assessment that combo decks are not for everyone - they dilute grid/ smaller draft pools, they could be non-interactive and aren't as fun for both players (They may not come together and the drafter ends up with a subpar deck/ the opponent loses against an infinite combo).
But my playgroup loves them - its still really exciting to have that Splinter Twin, Storm, Welder or Melira Combo deck come together. For my group, getting to successfully Twin someone, Time Vault, Welder someone is like one of those game achievements we haven't unlocked. We might feel the same way about combo decks in 2-3 years time when everyone had that opportunity and are sick of these somewhat non-interactive combos, but as of right now, we love them.
My playgroup plays more constructed formats, unlike cube, the decks/ archetypes in these decks are hyper streamed and focused and with every card being essentially an 8-off for consistency. We would like our cube environment to not resemble the hyper consistency of constructed format and we wanted an opportunity to play with cards/ archetypes that we couldn't play with normally in constructed.
Furthermore, with all the bans targeting cards and archetypes we really love, we found cube to be a place to continue to play with the cards/ archetypes we really liked. My modern affinity and twin deck were both hit with bans - having the opportunity to play Pestermite into Splinter Twin or move all-in in an aristocrats deck with Bloodthrone Vampire similar to an Arcbound Ravager all-in in cube something I crave.
I am currently trying the opposite approach of balancing for midrange, combo as well as improve pack relevancy in smaller drafts is by trimming aggressive 1-drops. I'm hoping there would be fewer aggressive decks and the midrange decks could focus their answers towards answering by interacting more with the combo decks rather than the aggressive decks.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/articles-podcasts-and-guides/820300-set-p-review-my-top-20-kaldheim-khm-cards-for-the
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm personally just reluctant to let some archetypes/ cards go.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
There were a couple of reasons the polymorph package left, and neither were due to underperformance. The deck works, and it works well. The problems are that it takes up a large amount of real estate to support, and that there are too many archetypes that compete for the payoff monsters. The cube has enough superfatties for sneak/show/eureka/tooth/oath/tinker/channel/order/grave/dance/etc to function, but with polymorph in there too, looking for the same finishers, there were too many decks and not enough fatties.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I've drafted your cube quite a bit + looked over your past drafts and I really like a lot of the archetypes/ decks. I was never able to draft a successful Tezzert/ Welder Deck/ Workshop. Do you have an example?
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Cavern Harpy is usually needed (best along with the Wardens), but I’m not sure if it’s worth a slot. Glimpse of Nature is another route.
Kor Skyfisher(GW Storm incoming) , Barrin, Tolarian Archmage, Man-o-War variants do have interaction if we were to explore already cubeable cards. (Does Eternal Witness + Sac outlet combo off?) (Man-o-War/Skyfisher + Panharmonicon for the memes)
2. BTW, after you had toned down the persist/counter combo package, I recalled an old time favorite: Geralf’s Messenger. Wonder if he’s good enough with Solemnity, Broodmoth...etc.
3. Loved your KHM review!
I would love to explore an Aluren combo if there was some more redundancy for the combo. But there's only one engine card, and it doesn't necessarily even win the game on the spot ...even when you have all the other pieces available.
Ya, Messenger is part of a couple of Undying combo engines, but I felt like I had too much support for that deck as it was. I want the combo to be competitive and be available to drafters, but not so omnipresent that it's auto-draftable with little/no effort.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Disclaimer - I'm no expert in cube at this. I just like to think about crazy cube archetype ideas.
To extend your thoughts on Aluren. I thought about this card for a bit and I thought one route was Blue-Green Kinnan Creature Storm:
With Mana Dorks:
- Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy - Doubles mana dork, but also is a mana sink
- Intruder Alarm - untap mana dorks.
Discounts:
- Earthcraft - taps for creatures the turn it comes out
- Aluren
- Ashnod's Altar
Creature Mana:
- Culling the Weak
- Gaea's Cradle
- Growing Rites of Itlimoc
- Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Card Draw:
- Glimpse of Nature
- Beck // Call
- Mentor of the Meek
- Path of Discovery
- Duskwatch Recruiter
- Necropotence - Flash those creatures in EOT
Or if your cube is filled with stuff like Duskwatch/ Mentor of the meek style effects, cards like Aluren could work wonders.
But I think this might just be way too inconsistent.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
They're in no way bad, but they started to feel less and less efficient over time, so I prefer the other options. And black has so much removal that I never feel short. But there's always a chance that cards like GFTT and HA could come back in at some point. They're perfectly fine cards.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
People always roll their eyes when they see the Roast in my Legacy/ Cube lists. It is in no way a good card, but I find 2 CMC removal is a bit of a necessity.
I've noticed your cube has become a lot more fair with less storm, polymorph, and persist combo as a result, creature combat is more important. I'm wondering, how are the aggressive decks pushing through the damage + how are the control decks answering two drops?
I don't claim to be an expert.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
@Sky - Ya, I can see that. Like I said, I don't think they're bad and I don't fault anyone for playing Doom Blade variants. They're just not as appealing to me as they used to be, and we've opted for different forms of removal that we've found to be more effective.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
When I was playing my 540/630 lists, I faced a fork in the road. With the powerlevel of the cards being released as high as they are (were?) in recent years, I felt the need to modify the structure of the cube in one of two ways. I either needed to trim the cube down in size to close the gap between the best cards and the worst cards so that the average powerlevel of the cards in the cube would be more competitive with one another, OR, I had to introduce combo play as a counter to card's increasing intrinsic powerlevels. I opted to go with the latter, and combat Okos and Teferis and Uros with Storm wins and infinite combos. It was a realistic way to try and fight the newly-printed high-power cards. And it worked. Combo decks were not only supported, but they were draftable and powerful, and left a lot of "fair" decks in the dust ...even if they were full of great cards.
Despite those decks doing a lot of winning, and having a good time drafting/deckbuilding those kinds of decks, they weren't as fun and interactive to pilot (at least for me anyways). It turns out that I greatly prefer the more conventional aggro/midrange/control paradigm (with tempo decks and archetype builds splashed in). So I wanted to go back and try Option 1, and see if I can still manage balanced play by reducing the cube size and narrowing the powerlevel gap that way. In short, that's what this change accomplishes.
It also happens to solve two other smaller problems for my playgroup. At 720, even with Impulse Drafting as an event structure, we only saw 50% of the cube list. With so much of the real estate dedicated to combo and archetype play, it could be difficult to navigate the heads-up drafts effectively, and the events felt full of narrow cards. Sealed Deck was even worse. I love Sealed events, and the 720 combo cube was just not conducive to supporting that kind of play. At 450, my heads-up events will use 80% of the cube, and my Sealed Decks won't be bogged down by combo-centric pieces. The decision has certainly been impacted by the Covid lockdown as well. We have less and less time to play, with fewer and fewer people each time. The drafting frequency certainly influences the desire to have more interactive play, and less "oops, I win" kinds of moments. I don't mind those when we're drafting multiple times per gathering with a full table of 8 every weekend ...but when you wait a month to get a small group together, getting Vaulted or Twinned out after playing a solid, competitive game just doesn't produce the best feelings. Hopefully playing a more conventional theater-centric format will make those events a bit more interactive.
720 was a huge success overall. I set out to create an environment where combo decks could compete, we could take full advantage of Sight/Glimpse/Impulse Drafts to mitigate the size problem; and to that aim, it played very well. I discovered over these past couple years that I prefer more interactive theater play, and aim to play a tighter list with a flatter powerlevel that reverts back to that style of play. I certainly don't fault anyone for continuing to support combo, and there's absolutely a chance some (or all!) of those themes could return in the future. But right now, I'm going to focus with tinkering the 450 list into a balanced and competitive environment again. So bear with me while I continue to rebalance the cube and get it right where we want it to be!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I can't wait to see what your final 450 looks like.
Edit: Nevermind. I see the list is up on CubeCobra. Lots of mana fixing now, I notice.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I agree with your assessment that combo decks are not for everyone - they dilute grid/ smaller draft pools, they could be non-interactive and aren't as fun for both players (They may not come together and the drafter ends up with a subpar deck/ the opponent loses against an infinite combo).
But my playgroup loves them - its still really exciting to have that Splinter Twin, Storm, Welder or Melira Combo deck come together. For my group, getting to successfully Twin someone, Time Vault, Welder someone is like one of those game achievements we haven't unlocked. We might feel the same way about combo decks in 2-3 years time when everyone had that opportunity and are sick of these somewhat non-interactive combos, but as of right now, we love them.
My playgroup plays more constructed formats, unlike cube, the decks/ archetypes in these decks are hyper streamed and focused and with every card being essentially an 8-off for consistency. We would like our cube environment to not resemble the hyper consistency of constructed format and we wanted an opportunity to play with cards/ archetypes that we couldn't play with normally in constructed.
Furthermore, with all the bans targeting cards and archetypes we really love, we found cube to be a place to continue to play with the cards/ archetypes we really liked. My modern affinity and twin deck were both hit with bans - having the opportunity to play Pestermite into Splinter Twin or move all-in in an aristocrats deck with Bloodthrone Vampire similar to an Arcbound Ravager all-in in cube something I crave.
I am currently trying the opposite approach of balancing for midrange, combo as well as improve pack relevancy in smaller drafts is by trimming aggressive 1-drops. I'm hoping there would be fewer aggressive decks and the midrange decks could focus their answers towards answering by interacting more with the combo decks rather than the aggressive decks.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i