Probably another Braids/Smokestack effect in black. Maybe a 4cc 'walker that has a Braids trigger as one of its abilities? IDK.
Finishing the Horizon land cycle? Shard Triomes? Enemy Mirage fetches? Blue Wall of Omens? A catch-all enabling artifact that works in multiple combo decks? An Impact Tremors on legs? A Goblin Bombardment on legs? Magus of the Bond (Green Fastbond creature). Another Zuran Orb kind of effect?
I don't know. I could design dozens and dozens of cards I'd like to see.
Any cards/roles you think would need to get printed to make a lands archetype more of a thing in your list? Just asking since there seems to have been a lot of good support for lands printed in the last few years.
Probably another Braids/Smokestack effect in black. Maybe a 4cc 'walker that has a Braids trigger as one of its abilities? IDK.
Finishing the Horizon land cycle? Shard Triomes? Enemy Mirage fetches? Blue Wall of Omens? A catch-all enabling artifact that works in multiple combo decks? An Impact Tremors on legs? A Goblin Bombardment on legs? Magus of the Bond (Green Fastbond creature). Another Zuran Orb kind of effect?
I don't know. I could design dozens and dozens of cards I'd like to see.
Any cards/roles you think would need to get printed to make a lands archetype more of a thing in your list? Just asking since there seems to have been a lot of good support for lands printed in the last few years.
I play a lot of the lands support cards now. But they're mostly the card advantage engines (Loam, Crucible, W&6, Excavator) and less of the threat-based support cards. I like Knight of the Reliquary and Elvish Reclaimer just fine, but they never felt impressive enough for me to try to push AggroLoam with them. And cards like Titania, Protector of Argoth were okay, but required very specific lines to occur to be more powerful than the other green creature options. So I feel that I support lands as an archetype about the best we can given the cards available at the time. I'm just not sure that Terravore effects are the route to making that archetype more competitive...
I can’t help but think since now we have Worldspine Wurm(wonderful addition btw,) is it possible to explore Flash-Protean Hulk combo? Hulk can easily go with things like Sneak/Breach, but I think the main problem is the lack of good targets other than maybe Karmic Guide and the persist components. Enjoying the discussion. Would love to hear how this is a bad idea as well!
Edit: You have a way of selling me on combo ideas that I want to explore. I'm going to review Flash and see how it might do. If I can get buy-in from the group, and they're interested in exploring the effect, I'll go for it.
The way I see it, it can be used in a few different ways:
Potentially Game-Winning Interactions
Worldspine Wurm (Three 5/5 trample creatures is good) Protean Hulk (Either immediate combo win or dropping a T2 Titan or some combination of other goodies) Woodfall Primus (5/5 trample and destroy 2 non-creature permanents for 2 mana at instant speed) Terastodon (Particularly in combat, this ability is strong) Sundering Titan (2-mana 'Geddon with flash seems good)
Other Strong Interactions (Particularly In Combat)
Turn ANY ETB/LTB trigger in the cube into a 2-mana instant with that ability (with the added drawback of costing you an additional card from hand). Disenchant effects, 187 triggers, fight triggers, bounce effects, etc, etc.
Use Flash as a "discard outlet" to get a giant monster into your graveyard to be able to reanimate it, or a big artifact creature into the 'yard for Welder/Daretti effects.
Use Flash to shuffle a super-titan back into your deck for Polymorph effects).
Face Value
You can always use it as a way to give a creature flash. If you can eat a creature in combat because of the flash, you can recoup the inherent card disadvantage associated with the effect.
..........
I don't know, but it seems worth exploring now that we have a few other good targets for it and infinite combo potential with Protean Hulk. I'll give it a shot. Thanks again for the fun and interesting suggestion, Repsycho.
Wonderful analysis. This is exactly what I expected from you (hence frequently throwing ideas your way ).
There's a reason Flash was banned/restricted in every format.
Griselbrand wouldn't work though (not a big deal). "If you choose not to pay, the creature is sacrificed immediately. No player will get priority in between the creature entering the battlefield and being sacrificed. Sacrificing the creature this way will trigger any abilities that trigger when it leaves the battlefield, and those abilities will be put onto the stack at the same time as those that triggered when it entered the battlefield."
I'm such a fan of your cube, going through the list/content every single day. So much cool/broken interactions! Love it!
Oh, BTW, since Flashing creatures isn't casting, any additional costs to cast are mitigated. e.g. Lesser Masticore. But not very relevant in your list.
Wonderful analysis. This is exactly what I expected from you (hence frequently throwing ideas your way ).
There's a reason Flash was banned/restricted in every format.
Griselbrand wouldn't work though (not a big deal). "If you choose not to pay, the creature is sacrificed immediately. No player will get priority in between the creature entering the battlefield and being sacrificed. Sacrificing the creature this way will trigger any abilities that trigger when it leaves the battlefield, and those abilities will be put onto the stack at the same time as those that triggered when it entered the battlefield."
I'm such a fan of your cube, going through the list/content every single day. So much cool/broken interactions! Love it!
By this same deal I don't think flashing in Elesh Norn works either?
We’ve been running Flash for a while. It’s on the fence but helps with density of Ux fatty cheating enablers. Best creatures to use it with are Worldspine Wurm and Woodfall Primus.
It's a very narrow 3-card, 3-color combo with almost no redundancy. But I've definitely been keeping an eye on it.
I mean, if my playgroup shows interest in trying it out, I could give it a shot over Rakdos's Return or something maybe. But I'd hate to lose access to an infinite mana sink.
Thanks for jogging my memory about this card though; it's been one I've wanted to go over with my group since the Mothra combo started seeing play.
Correct about Griselbrand; it doesn't work because you don't have priority to activate the ability before Flash finishes resolving.
And ya, Elesh Norn disappears before state based actions are checked, so that doesn't work either.
Still lots of cool interactions though.
That is interesting. I never knew that.
My thoughts on Flash is definitely play it. It leads to some pretty degenerated turn 2- turn 3 plays. You play cube to play with all the too strong for vintage/ legacy cards, not to play 2 mana 2/2 and attack into 2/3s.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Cool to see humans back with Kudro! Any specific reason for the addition of Jinxed Idol? Never even seen that card before and I don’t believe it’s been in your list in the four years I’ve been drafting it.
Loving all the recent additions and combo packages btw, dark depths is a favorite.
Jinxed Idol can be used as part of the sacrifice combos as long as the loop/kill can be demonstrated on the spot, so it's another combo engine. But Idol also seems competitive in aristocrats as a way to keep the opponent under Vortex-like pressure as you can constantly feed it with tokens and recursive monsters ...all the while triggering your Blood Artist effects. It was recommended by RyanSaxe over on Twitter and I decided to give it a spin.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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Finishing the Horizon land cycle? Shard Triomes? Enemy Mirage fetches? Blue Wall of Omens? A catch-all enabling artifact that works in multiple combo decks? An Impact Tremors on legs? A Goblin Bombardment on legs? Magus of the Bond (Green Fastbond creature). Another Zuran Orb kind of effect?
I don't know. I could design dozens and dozens of cards I'd like to see.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
hope to see you try some unofficial card in cube. maybe next time the MH2 will come out and that of cards you want will come out too
I'm drooling at some of these...
I play a lot of the lands support cards now. But they're mostly the card advantage engines (Loam, Crucible, W&6, Excavator) and less of the threat-based support cards. I like Knight of the Reliquary and Elvish Reclaimer just fine, but they never felt impressive enough for me to try to push AggroLoam with them. And cards like Titania, Protector of Argoth were okay, but required very specific lines to occur to be more powerful than the other green creature options. So I feel that I support lands as an archetype about the best we can given the cards available at the time. I'm just not sure that Terravore effects are the route to making that archetype more competitive...
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Edit: You have a way of selling me on combo ideas that I want to explore. I'm going to review Flash and see how it might do. If I can get buy-in from the group, and they're interested in exploring the effect, I'll go for it.
The way I see it, it can be used in a few different ways:
Potentially Game-Winning Interactions
Worldspine Wurm (Three 5/5 trample creatures is good)
Protean Hulk (Either immediate combo win or dropping a T2 Titan or some combination of other goodies)
Woodfall Primus (5/5 trample and destroy 2 non-creature permanents for 2 mana at instant speed)
Terastodon (Particularly in combat, this ability is strong)
Sundering Titan (2-mana 'Geddon with flash seems good)
Other Strong Interactions (Particularly In Combat)
Hornet Queen (Make 4 1/1 flying deathtouchers at instant speed)
Wurmcoil Engine (Two 3/3 bodies w/ flash for 2 mana)
Ancient Stone Idol (Makes a 6/7 trampling body)
Primeval Titan (Double land ramp)
Reveillark (Bring back 2 creatures)
Karmic Guide (Build-your-own instant speed 2-mana reanimation spell)
Weaker Situational Uses
Grave Titan (Two 2/2 zombies for two mana at instant speed)
Sun Titan (Bring back a critical cheap permanent)
Inferno Titan (2-mana instant-speed Arc Lightning with a discard drawback)
Thragtusk (Gain 5 life and get a 3/3 body for 2 mana + a card)
Great Oak Guardian/Craterhoof Behemoth (2-mana instant speed Overrun effects?)
Dragonlord Atarka (5 dividable damage at instant speed)
Myr Battlesphere (Grab 4 1/1 tokens)
Utility Uses
Turn ANY ETB/LTB trigger in the cube into a 2-mana instant with that ability (with the added drawback of costing you an additional card from hand). Disenchant effects, 187 triggers, fight triggers, bounce effects, etc, etc.
Use Flash as a "discard outlet" to get a giant monster into your graveyard to be able to reanimate it, or a big artifact creature into the 'yard for Welder/Daretti effects.
Use Flash to shuffle a super-titan back into your deck for Polymorph effects).
Face Value
You can always use it as a way to give a creature flash. If you can eat a creature in combat because of the flash, you can recoup the inherent card disadvantage associated with the effect.
..........
I don't know, but it seems worth exploring now that we have a few other good targets for it and infinite combo potential with Protean Hulk. I'll give it a shot. Thanks again for the fun and interesting suggestion, Repsycho.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
There's a reason Flash was banned/restricted in every format.
Griselbrand wouldn't work though (not a big deal). "If you choose not to pay, the creature is sacrificed immediately. No player will get priority in between the creature entering the battlefield and being sacrificed. Sacrificing the creature this way will trigger any abilities that trigger when it leaves the battlefield, and those abilities will be put onto the stack at the same time as those that triggered when it entered the battlefield."
I'm such a fan of your cube, going through the list/content every single day. So much cool/broken interactions! Love it!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
By this same deal I don't think flashing in Elesh Norn works either?
Correct. Basically, all you get are ETBs and LTBs.
And ya, Elesh Norn disappears before state based actions are checked, so that doesn't work either.
Still lots of cool interactions though.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I mean, if my playgroup shows interest in trying it out, I could give it a shot over Rakdos's Return or something maybe. But I'd hate to lose access to an infinite mana sink.
Thanks for jogging my memory about this card though; it's been one I've wanted to go over with my group since the Mothra combo started seeing play.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
That is interesting. I never knew that.
My thoughts on Flash is definitely play it. It leads to some pretty degenerated turn 2- turn 3 plays. You play cube to play with all the too strong for vintage/ legacy cards, not to play 2 mana 2/2 and attack into 2/3s.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Loving all the recent additions and combo packages btw, dark depths is a favorite.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!