MTG Salvation

Hi wtwlf123, was made aware of this awesome thread via Reddit. Very awesome dedication from you on vintage cube.


wanted to get your opinion if there are any staples from the cube list that you will never remove? If so what’s the rationale?


Thanks!

Well, the only staples that I would never remove would be the cards that are simply too good to ever be obsoleted. Nothing is really sacred, but there are plenty of cards that I just can't see Wizards ever printing better versions of. Those cards are the closest things to staples I can imagine never removing. Power, Sol Ring, Library of Alexandria, OG Duals, Mana Drain, Tinker, Balance, Armageddon, Mind Twist, Demonic Tutor, Channel ...it's hard to imagine those kinds of cards ever being rendered obsolete.

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Quote from wtwlf123 »

Well, the only staples that I would never remove would be the cards that are simply too good to ever be obsoleted. Nothing is really sacred, but there are plenty of cards that I just can't see Wizards ever printing better versions of. Those cards are the closest things to staples I can imagine never removing. Power, Sol Ring, Library of Alexandria, OG Duals, Mana Drain, Tinker, Balance, Armageddon, Mind Twist, Demonic Tutor, Channel ...it's hard to imagine those kinds of cards ever being rendered obsolete.

these does makes sense. And I supposed these are also cards that define the “vintage” aspect.

Pretty much, ya. Powerful cards that are format defining and those that drafters expect to be a part of their powered cube experience are important ones to keep around.

I'm a bit surprised by your recent inclusion of Sleight of Hand and Opt.

Your cube doesn't have stuff like Thing in the Ice/ Talrand nor the heavy delve/ escape package of Treasure Cruise/ Tasigur/ Kroxa nor is it as combo heavy as it once was.

My problem with opt before was that:

1. Blue decks are over drafted and often blue is a splash not a primary color (fewer blue sources in the deck to cast opt).
2. Blue lands are often ETB tapped + blue decks are slower and would prefer to not shock themselves even if they have the mana.

I could see myself playing these cards to help these archetypes, but blue section is way too competitive.

What was your reasoning for their inclusion? The primary reason why I'm asking is likely Opt won't make it into my cube, but Consider seems excellent.

I think card selection cantrips are important, and they also get more valuable in batches. The fact that we're getting Consider actually makes Opt/Sleight better. But really, cube is simply a volatile format with a pretty big disparity in powerlevel between the best cards in your final 40 and your worst ones. So much so that card selection cantrips are really appealing. Digging for specific outs, build-around effects, or simply your highest power card is a valuable thing to be doing. Unlike a spell that simply replaces itself, card selection cantrips dig for outs and bombs, and they smooth draws and mana/spell ratios. They were underrepresented in my list before, and I was more likely to include Tier 3 counterspells than Tier 2 cantrips ...a mistake I rectified with recent changes.

I agree that some cantrip effects require the support of specific types of cards to be worthwhile (a card like Peek I wouldn't play unless I was super deep on spells matters, and Mental Note only gets really good if you support Delve and Delirium as strategies) but card selection cantrips are kind just ...good cards. I was in the mood for something I could use to replace my 23rd best card with and help dig towards my insane bombs and specific outs. It was time to play the extra good, cheap, card selection spells. Just my $0.02.

As an aside, thanks to Newez over on reddit for creating my appreciation post. Much appreciated. Always nice to see that there are a few folks out there that like to hear me ramble on about cube stuff. Cheers all.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

I think card selection cantrips are important, and they also get more valuable in batches. The fact that we're getting Consider actually makes Opt/Sleight better. But really, cube is simply a volatile format with a pretty big disparity in powerlevel between the best cards in your final 40 and your worst ones. So much so that card selection cantrips are really appealing. Digging for specific outs, build-around effects, or simply your highest power card is a valuable thing to be doing. Unlike a spell that simply replaces itself, card selection cantrips dig for outs and bombs, and they smooth draws and mana/spell ratios. They were underrepresented in my list before, and I was more likely to include Tier 3 counterspells than Tier 2 cantrips ...a mistake I rectified with recent changes.

I agree that some cantrip effects require the support of specific types of cards to be worthwhile (a card like Peek I wouldn't play unless I was super deep on spells matters, and Mental Note only gets really good if you support Delve and Delirium as strategies) but card selection cantrips are kind just ...good cards. I was in the mood for something I could use to replace my 23rd best card with and help dig towards my insane bombs and specific outs. It was time to play the extra good, cheap, card selection spells. Just my $0.02.

That makes a lot of sense thanks!

In recent days, if I needed to make a cut and its not that black and white, I normally cut the less interesting card/ less replaceable effect. I found that these decks that play Opt/ Sleight of Hand could do without it. It felt a little bit like adding a Pendelhaven into a cube. I needed to make some room blue cards in my cube and I opted to cut Sleight of Hand/ Opt.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

As an aside, thanks to Newez over on reddit for creating my appreciation post. Much appreciated. Always nice to see that there are a few folks out there that like to hear me ramble on about cube stuff. Cheers all.

As a newly minted Reddit celebrity, how do you plan to cope with this newfound fame?

Quote from Breathe1234 »

In recent days, if I needed to make a cut and its not that black and white, I normally cut the less interesting card/ less replaceable effect.

I assume you mean more replaceable effect?

That's the consistency vs variability argument in a nutshell. Are you aiming to have high variability drafts/games or very consistent drafts/games. It's good to have a bit of both I think, and striking that balance can be hard. Should I really run llanowar elves, fyndhorn elves, and elvish mystic as another example.

Quote from asmallcat »

Quote from wtwlf123 »

As an aside, thanks to Newez over on reddit for creating my appreciation post. Much appreciated. Always nice to see that there are a few folks out there that like to hear me ramble on about cube stuff. Cheers all.

As a newly minted Reddit celebrity, how do you plan to cope with this newfound fame?

I don't know! I'm at a loss.

Quote from Szko »

Quote from Breathe1234 »

In recent days, if I needed to make a cut and its not that black and white, I normally cut the less interesting card/ less replaceable effect.

I assume you mean more replaceable effect?

That's the consistency vs variability argument in a nutshell. Are you aiming to have high variability drafts/games or very consistent drafts/games. It's good to have a bit of both I think, and striking that balance can be hard. Should I really run llanowar elves, fyndhorn elves, and elvish mystic as another example.

I opt for the more powerful card, but when its a bit too close to call, I keep the more interesting card.

When it comes to picking the Tier X version of whatever kind of redundant effect I have room for, I might as well choose card selection cantrips since they help me draw the powerful/unique/interesting cards you're talking about. I'm not advocating removing irreplaceable effects for card selection cantrips. But I am advocating for removing Tier 3+ redundant cards for Tier 2 card selection cantrips. Those Tier 3+ cards aren't particularly unique or interesting, and they're certainly replaceable. Card selection cantrips allow you replace your 23rd best card with something that can help you find your best cards, your most interesting cards, and your powerful build-around cards. That's why the comparison between them and Pendlehaven is a poor one. Making the cut because the opportunity cost is almost 0 is not the same thing as including cards that help you churn through your library and find your critical draws. My cantrip suite has been underrepresented for too long.

I mean, I get it. They're not sexy or exciting cards. And they take up real estate. But they're definitely good.

I'm so happy to see storm make it back into your cube - How do you feel about Aeve, Progenitor Ooze and Chatterstorm. Aeve feels too green heavy to be really effective in a storm deck and chatterstorm feels like its too weak to be a storm payoffs - I've rarely been able to get to storm 10+

I'm also wondering what you feel about cards like Kodama's Reach or the 2 CMC green ramp spells that were in the previous iterations of your cube - I agree they lost their luster, but I always felt they were necessary to support cards like Time Spiral, Palinchron, Field of the Dead etc. I'm not super excited about any green 2-3 CMC ramp - I've considered playing Exploration, but that feels too narrow.

Aeve, Chatterstorm, and to a lesser extent, Grapeshot, are mostly there to provide a half-measures storm package. I can play a Gruul tokens deck with rituals and Chatterstorm, for example, and it can be an effective card that's less all-in than Tendrils/Brain Freeze, but still provides drafters with something to use some of the storm support for. It's an experiment, but I think it can be fun and relatively effective.

Maybe something like this: https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/deck/611b9a7d49ac451047c68c41 ?

I don't feel the need for Reach/Cultivate in order to support storm.

A brief statement about Storm in my cube:

I recently re-added a storm package into my 540 list. There were a few reasons why I did this. First and foremost, I simply missed having storm around. It's a fun and complex archetype, and feels like solving a puzzle when you draft/deckbuild/play with the deck. Secondly, I wanted to see if storm would be viable in my current list, and whether or not it could still compete. Thirdly, I wanted to see how well it would integrate with the design philosophy of the 540 list.

I found that storm is indeed still fun to draft and play. It still brings that puzzle-solving feel to the environment, and provides a unique experience that other decks don't foster.

I also found that storm is absolutely still competitive. If you focus on the deck, draft pieces correctly and execute well, the archetype can still win drafts.

Lastly, I got to see how it integrated with the current list.

The results are that storm is fun and competitive, but that it integrated poorly with the current cube configuration. The play patterns of the deck are counter to an environment built around interchangeable parts and universally valuable interaction. The feel of the deck was off. When my cube list was more combo-centric, storm felt very natural. But in an environment filled with take-on-all-comers kinds of builds, storm felt out-of-place. The experience is comparatively non-interactive, and the gameplay often felt like two passing ships.

Additionally, there are some logistical problems with storm in small- to medium-sized cubes. It takes up a huge amount of real estate to support, and unlike the majority of other archetype-enablers, the storm cards are largely deck-specific and arguably parasitic. In a cube this size, that can cause problems with decks looking to find their last playable cards to flesh out their deck. There were several instances where my deck fell short on playables because all the wheeling cards were storm-exclusive enablers, and decks fell short on nonland cards. This experience was amplified in sealed deck, where 1-2 unplayable cards in a pool can kill a color's validity.

As a result, I have decided to de-storm my cube during my upcoming Innistrad: Midnight Hunt update. The cube will return to an environment where players can build a 2-3 color deck in any combination of colors, and the vast majority of the available pieces provide the interchangeable parts to do so. It will also foster an atmosphere where interaction and answers will be valuable against a greater percentage of the field. Hopefully the result will feel more traditional and interactive than it has in the recent months.

I understand that a lot of folks follow my list closely, and I apologize for the huge swings in card choices/changes that comes with this decision. But as always, if you have been enjoying storm, I encourage you to continue supporting it! Do whatever is best for you and your playgroup, and you can't go wrong in this format.

And as always, cube is a living, breathing format that is always changing. If the cube pivots to a stronger combo-centric focus in the future (which there's always a good chance that it will) the environment will foster a perfect atmosphere for storm to return at that point!

Cheers, and happy cubing!

-wtwlf123

My article for MID is up!

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/articles-podcasts-and-guides/823668-set-p-review-my-top-20-innistrad-midnight-hunt-mid

Hey buddy,

I noticed you aren't running Foundation Breaker or Acidic Slime anymore but are running Manglehorn and Outland Liberator. Can you discuss why you prefer the ones your running to the others?

Thanks and cheers,
rant

Quote from wtwlf123 »

A brief statement about Storm in my cube:

I recently re-added a storm package into my 540 list. There were a few reasons why I did this. First and foremost, I simply missed having storm around. It's a fun and complex archetype, and feels like solving a puzzle when you draft/deckbuild/play with the deck. Secondly, I wanted to see if storm would be viable in my current list, and whether or not it could still compete. Thirdly, I wanted to see how well it would integrate with the design philosophy of the 540 list.

I found that storm is indeed still fun to draft and play. It still brings that puzzle-solving feel to the environment, and provides a unique experience that other decks don't foster.

I also found that storm is absolutely still competitive. If you focus on the deck, draft pieces correctly and execute well, the archetype can still win drafts.

Lastly, I got to see how it integrated with the current list.

The results are that storm is fun and competitive, but that it integrated poorly with the current cube configuration. The play patterns of the deck are counter to an environment built around interchangeable parts and universally valuable interaction. The feel of the deck was off. When my cube list was more combo-centric, storm felt very natural. But in an environment filled with take-on-all-comers kinds of builds, storm felt out-of-place. The experience is comparatively non-interactive, and the gameplay often felt like two passing ships.

Additionally, there are some logistical problems with storm in small- to medium-sized cubes. It takes up a huge amount of real estate to support, and unlike the majority of other archetype-enablers, the storm cards are largely deck-specific and arguably parasitic. In a cube this size, that can cause problems with decks looking to find their last playable cards to flesh out their deck. There were several instances where my deck fell short on playables because all the wheeling cards were storm-exclusive enablers, and decks fell short on nonland cards. This experience was amplified in sealed deck, where 1-2 unplayable cards in a pool can kill a color's validity.

As a result, I have decided to de-storm my cube during my upcoming Innistrad: Midnight Hunt update. The cube will return to an environment where players can build a 2-3 color deck in any combination of colors, and the vast majority of the available pieces provide the interchangeable parts to do so. It will also foster an atmosphere where interaction and answers will be valuable against a greater percentage of the field. Hopefully the result will feel more traditional and interactive than it has in the recent months.

I understand that a lot of folks follow my list closely, and I apologize for the huge swings in card choices/changes that comes with this decision. But as always, if you have been enjoying storm, I encourage you to continue supporting it! Do whatever is best for you and your playgroup, and you can't go wrong in this format.

And as always, cube is a living, breathing format that is always changing. If the cube pivots to a stronger combo-centric focus in the future (which there's always a good chance that it will) the environment will foster a perfect atmosphere for storm to return at that point!

Cheers, and happy cubing!

-wtwlf123

I cannot agree more with this statement. One thing I really like is the number of storm enablers (especially some of the non-parasitic ones) printed in the last 2-3 years and I only expect this number to continue to grow.

I want to thank you the best for your work on the Melira Combo - its one of the favorite archetypes and I find a lot of its enablers fit really with the green/ black/ white creature base that already exist in the cube. it provides a really fun play pattern.

The part I dislike about storm right now is I find the archetype hand cuffs you to staying in grixis colors and playing with all the playables that wheel to you - its not like melira combo where you technically can play in naya with equipments, rabblemasters rather than stay as an all-in melira deck in Abzan.

As you mentioned, storm is slightly better in a combo centric environment - the tutors are more relevant, the rituals/ fast mana (outside of LED) I found to be playable in combo decks - I often play the red rituals in big red archetypes. I found it necessary for turn 4 sneak attack or turn 3 chandra.

Cards like Bolas Citidal, Gush, Fastbond, Dream Halls, Thousand-year storm, Time Spiral, and Sharknado can all be fine playables outside of a storm shell.

I'm not sure if the symmetrical mana doublers could be playable right in a super ramp deck ...

As always, thank you so much for all your effort in fostering this cube community for 10+ years.

@Breathe1234: Thanks for the kind words!

@rant: I went with the effects that were cheaper and generally more punishing against early artifact mana. I like Foundation Breaker though, and I might bring that card back in at some point in the future, the evoke felt pretty decent.

I see you currently run the full cycle of talismans and signets. In the past I know these have been debated but I'd like to hear your reasoning for including them and why you think they are important. Do you include them because they are needed to support an artifact sub theme? Or do you value 2 mana ramp highly and if so for what reasons? I've heard the argument that giving control decks reliable turn 2 ramp allows for faster wraths or big plays that can hamper aggressive decks. Do you see any merit to this? What kind of decks do you typically draft that want them? In any non aggressive shell? Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for your thoughts!

They help midrange decks remain competitive in an environment that would otherwise be slanted towards aggro decks and archetype shells. And they enable some of the bigger mana archetype shells (like Wildfire + Upheaval decks) stay relevant in a fast-paced format. I don't care much for them in true draw-go control decks unless they also provide perfect fixing.

I like to hear about your thoughts on flicker archetype and why it was cut - was it overall jsut too slow?

The dedicated tools in W/U were cut because they were too slow, but the engines are still there for Mardu blink, which typically has a more aggressive slant and plays out decently well still.