Well, Grafted Wargear IS in. Now the question is what would you cut for Forcefield instead... and I wouldn't cut any of those 5 (or 6 if you include O Stone) you mentioned for it.
Thanks for the help though... I think I can cube without Forcefield for now.
500 card master cube list, combining my "Classic Cube" and my "Modern Cube" to make a completed "Master Cube".
........
So, for all of you out there that have wondered what my selections would look like after combining both of my cubes together... here's the list.
WOW! I come back from vacation and I see that planets collide!!!!
Cool:D ... will check it all out and get back to ya later.
After a massive weekend of drafting the new cube, I've decided on two things:
1. I really dislike too much multicolor and,
2. I really like having lots of fixing/nonbasics.
So, to solve that problem, I'm cutting one from each 2-color gold combination and adding in one full fixing cycle.
I was used to using 65 nonbasics in my 415 card cube(s), and then tried to run 65 in my 500 card cube. I found it wasn't enough. I also was used to using either 30 or 45 gold cards in my 415 card cubes, and I've decided that I'll like 45 gold cards for my 500 card cube best.
Changes updated in change log in Post #2.
..........
Still looking to make room for Condescend. Suggestions?
Still looking to make room for Condescend. Suggestions?
I like Condescend more than Memory Lapse? Not that I don't like Memory Lapse, of course
EDIT: merl dagger'd me
Also, re: black utility lands, I've had alright results with Cabal Pit. Take a little damage and get a free Disfigure, useful in that it can kill pro black guys like Barbarian Ring kills pro red. Combos reasonably well with Life from the Loam. I mean, it's not exciting, but I prefer it slightly to Urborg.
I was thinking -5 artifacts and +5 Vivid Lands.
Suggestions on what 5 artifacts can come out?
I see you already have moved on, but, my 2 cents is your artifacts are solid ... the only ones that seem weaker are: Bottle Gnomes (3 is a lot for control to spend (instead of draw/counters) for a little body and a little life in comparison to the rest)
and Pithing Needle (just not nearly as good in a singleton format)
I think you have picked the right ones, even I would miss Gelectrode, bu it just isn't as good as the other UR cards.
Thanks. Ya, I'll miss a few of the individual cards, but I'll enjoy the drafts more now that the gold <10% of the cube. That was my goal, and I think I did it the best I could with 4 cards per pair and one of each shard (45 total).
Quote from Shalazar »
I see you already have moved on, but, my 2 cents is your artifacts are solid ... the only ones that seem weaker are: Bottle Gnomes (:3mana: is a lot for control to spend (instead of draw/counters) for a little body and a little life in comparison to the rest)
and Pithing Needle (just not nearly as good in a singleton format)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwlf123 Still looking to make room for Condescend. Suggestions?
Thanks for the suggestions, but all of those cards are ones I must keep in.
Bottle Gnomes is an excellent control creature. It can go in any control deck, stop all 2-power attackers, and be sac'd for life if destroyed or trading in combat. Combine his effect with cards like Genesis, Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold... and that's a chump-blocking life-gaining critter that aggro just can't overcome.
Pithing Needle is an answer to too many cards in the cube to ignore it. For the low price of 1, it blanks planeswalkers, problematic lands, and powerful artifacts. It's a valuable tool for pretty much every deck, and the cost is just to efficient to cut it.
Waterfront Bouncer is a discard engine and a recurring bounce spell. It's been really, really great for us, and is currently nowhere near the chopping block.
Thieving Magpie? Really? That card's been great in every cube I've played. Recurring card draw on-a-stick... with evasion. He's solid. People underestimate his value and let him go for awhile. I've won several games of the back of the Magpie.
Rainbow Efreet is great too. If you've got the mana to defend it, it dies to nothing that doesn't have split second. It's the most resilient creature in the cube.
Hinder is great. It's a hard-counter when you need one, and a tempo-counter when you need one. I love it.
Memory Lapse is fantastic. When played in the early stages of the game, it's practically like a 2nd Time Walk. When played in the later stages, you can deny the opponent a top-deck they desperately need by forcing them to redraw a spell they can't win with. Tempo counters are cool. See: Remand. That's another great one.
Good to see the new Cube, although I'll miss the old ones. I think what sucks the most is losing a fellow cuber from your group.
I find it hard to fault any of the choices. Sure there are cards missing, but on a 500 cube cuts are tough.
I am tempted to make the swap from Boomerang to Roil. I will miss the turn 2: Boomerang your Karoo, but the splashability and added utility of Roil is probably better.
I think the approach of having lots of lands is a good one. A heavy land section increases the proportion of cards drafted that will make your deck, which is all to the good in my opinion.
A couple of questions. First, is five colour control played much in your cube? The fixing is certainly there, but I would guess (from your descriptions of games and the look of your list) that yours is a fairly fast environment. Also, there are fewer of the good multicolour cards that reward a five-colour-player. (As an aside, Evan Erwin cut his Vivid lands because he found 5CC was too prevalent and powerful in his drafts. I think the real problem was his excess of multicolour.)
Second, have you consciously decided to support certain archetypes in this build, or did you just go for the 'best' cards?
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
There are some specific archetypes that are supported which allows for some... less than optimal choices (like supporting reanimator and using Entomb, for example). Overall though, I was going by which cards I thought were going to have the biggest impact and be the strongest cards.
Ya, I think I can live without the Vivids. 5CC is certainly still a viable archetype, but I remove a lot of cards that force that deck. It doesn't need those kinds of cards to remain a solid archetype. Using more 2-color fixing and less 5-color support will help two-color decks get the fixing they need, and not really hurting the 4 or 5 color control decks at all.
Ya, I think I can live without the Vivids. 5CC is certainly still a viable archetype, but I remove a lot of cards that force that deck. It doesn't need those kinds of cards to remain a solid archetype. Using more 2-color fixing and less 5-color support will help two-color decks get the fixing they need, and not really hurting the 4 or 5 color control decks at all.
Yeah u can do without the vivids, the artifacts u would have to cut doesn't outweigh the benefits of the vivids. I like the cut of the Multicolor section as well...
Yeah u can do without the vivids, the artifacts u would have to cut doesn't outweigh the benefits of the vivids. I like the cut of the Multicolor section as well...
Glad to hear. We drafted once so far with the <10% gold in the cube, and it's great. Every gold card is amazing (as they should be), and there's no gold chaff clogging up the draft. I like it much better w/ extra lands and less gold. What we've found, is that another WU fixing land is better for a WU deck than another white/blue gold card is.
..........
Also, I wanted to point out how much of a freakin' beating Goblin Guide is. Over the course of the three games I was capable of drawing him in, he did 22 damage. Averaging over 7 damage per time he was cast. That is ridiculous for R. He's silly good.
I was wondering why you put Pyroclasm in your cube instead of Volcanic Fallout, do you really feel that the -R makes a huge difference? I can see cases for either of these cards, just wanted your opinion.
Also, no Tooth and Nail, or All Suns' Dawn? You must really like to push green aggro [ which I envy ]. The 2 cards listed above are too good for me to remove them from my cube, but once again, wanted to hear your opinions.
We rarely ever run more than two colors, so All Suns' Dawn was simply a bad Restock. Tooth and Nail was okay, but never stellar. It's really expensive.
We found that Pyroclasm doesn't get countered. The 2 damage kills very few blue creatures. The instant speed is good, but the cheaper cost is better (for the same reason I use Earthquake instead of Fault Line). We found that a turn 2 Pyroclasm on the draw kills the same number of creatures as a turn 3 Fallout (while also having you take less damage off of attacking aggro creatures), so I may as well just be playing a card that costs 2 instead of 3, and not give the opponent the chance to untap and play his pump spells or whatever. Plus, 1R is much easier to splash in a off-color deck (like UU/r control... where 'clasm is often played) than 1RR is. Plus, Pyroclasm and Fallout are more control-ish cards, where I'd want to be using sweepers that don't damage players too.
How is this possible? Even my aggro decks in cube average 2.5 colors, and I think we run slightly less fixing than you, in a similar sized cube.
Different playstyles? Sacrificing power for consistency? I don't know. It's rare we see more than a 2-color deck around here. Note the fixing I have. No vivids or tri-lands... but five 2-color cycles. It's because those lands fit better into out playstyles.
I certainly can understand this, but in an entire playgroup? Seems strange. Also it seems a bit shortsighted. If you clearly have the cube to play more colors easily, why wouldn't you? It seems like you need to do what we tell players to do when a group is undervaluing a card...draft it (in this case more than 2 colors) and beat them with the power it gives you.
EDIT: Saw you add. We have the same fixing, except no pain lands. No Vivids or tri's for us either. Duals and fetches make 3 color extremely possible though.
I find that the two color decks are better. Consistency is key, and we have larger mono-color sections and a very small gold section (and lots of artifacts). Those three points are a key recipie for making great 2-color decks in the cube.
If I had less artifacts, smaller mono-color sections, more gold cards, and more 3+ color fixing lands, the 3+ color decks would be stronger. I've designed my cube with that in mind. We prefer to run consistent 2-color decks rather than splashing a 3rd or 4th color into every deck.
I find that the two color decks are better. Consistency is key.
Well then why not mono? Those are even more consistent?
What I am saying is that your cube is contructed to generate a decent amount of three color (or occasionally more) decks each draft that are just as consistent as a 2 color deck due to the fixing you've picked up. I can't see how that's not true.
Finsh reading the rest of my last two posts. You responded so quickly that you didn't read either of the edits. All your questions were answered. The cube was designed to enable consistent and powerful 2-color decks, and intentionally did not push 3+ colors.
That's not to say it doesn't happen, it's just that it's not as common as a straight 2-color deck.
And mono-colors happen occasionally, but you don't always have that option.
I take the opposite opinion on Fallout. I want my red spells to hurt the opponent. An aggressive deck will never play Pyroclasm in the cube, they will play Fallout. Ergo, I play Fallout
Why would an aggressive deck play a spell that kills all their aggro creatures? If you're not using any creatures with <3 toughness, you're not playing aggro. You're playing some weird, mid-range tempo deck.
Finsh reading the rest of my last two posts. You responded so quickly that you didn't read either of the edits.
I've read them, I just can't help but disagree. I run a very similar cube, with slightly less fixing (and no 3 color lands). Having a higher land and artifact count probably helps, but it can't affect too much since only a few more are going to show up per draft, and everyone is going to be gunning for them.
Also, my splashes are just as often, if not more often for mono cards than gold cards. There have been too many times when I've cracked a bomb in pack 3 that wasn't in my colors, or had a lot of fixing for a third color passed my way.
I mean, especially if no one esle is drafting three colors, you should be getting passes amazing fixing because people are only grabbing duals in their color combination.
It's completely possible that I'm wrong here, but I just can't wrap my head around not being able to fairly easily run a consistent deck in this cube that abuses three colors.
It's completely possible that I'm wrong here, but I just can't wrap my head around not being able to fairly easily run a consistent deck in this cube that abuses three colors.
I never said it wasn't possible, or even that it didn't happen. All I said is that the cube is designed to better support 2-color decks, so 3+ color decks don't show up all the time.
More mono color, more artifacts, less gold, less 3+ color fixing.
Why would an aggressive deck play a spell that kills all their aggro creatures? If you're not using any creatures with <3 toughness, you're not playing aggro. You're playing some weird, mid-range tempo deck.
Because you're a red aggressive deck. Your creatures will die but the goal is to kill their creatures and them as well. When your opponent starts to stabilize the board you can attack with your 2/2s into his larger creatures. He can block, or not. If he does you guys die, you fallout, his guys die, he takes two. You've just bought yourself more time to burn him out.
I have enough slots to run both because they both have merits. Fallout is good for red aggro often for the reasons iceage4life mentioned, and Pyroclasm is better for Ramp or control decks to conserve precious life points due to it's efficiency, single red in it's casting cost, and lack of damage to players.
Thanks for the help though... I think I can cube without Forcefield for now.
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WOW! I come back from vacation and I see that planets collide!!!!
Cool:D ... will check it all out and get back to ya later.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385729
1. I really dislike too much multicolor and,
2. I really like having lots of fixing/nonbasics.
So, to solve that problem, I'm cutting one from each 2-color gold combination and adding in one full fixing cycle.
I was used to using 65 nonbasics in my 415 card cube(s), and then tried to run 65 in my 500 card cube. I found it wasn't enough. I also was used to using either 30 or 45 gold cards in my 415 card cubes, and I've decided that I'll like 45 gold cards for my 500 card cube best.
Changes updated in change log in Post #2.
..........
Still looking to make room for Condescend. Suggestions?
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I like Condescend more than Memory Lapse? Not that I don't like Memory Lapse, of course
EDIT: merl dagger'd me
Also, re: black utility lands, I've had alright results with Cabal Pit. Take a little damage and get a free Disfigure, useful in that it can kill pro black guys like Barbarian Ring kills pro red. Combos reasonably well with Life from the Loam. I mean, it's not exciting, but I prefer it slightly to Urborg.
I see you already have moved on, but, my 2 cents is your artifacts are solid ... the only ones that seem weaker are:
Bottle Gnomes (3 is a lot for control to spend (instead of draw/counters) for a little body and a little life in comparison to the rest)
and
Pithing Needle (just not nearly as good in a singleton format)
I wouldn't run Condescend in a small cube ... and I'd put Power Sink in before it. But, if you want suggestions ... I think Waterfront Bouncer, Thieving Magpie, Rainbow Efreet, Hinder, and Memory Lapse are at the bottom of your awesome U pile.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385729
Thanks. Ya, I'll miss a few of the individual cards, but I'll enjoy the drafts more now that the gold <10% of the cube. That was my goal, and I think I did it the best I could with 4 cards per pair and one of each shard (45 total).
Thanks for the suggestions, but all of those cards are ones I must keep in.
Bottle Gnomes is an excellent control creature. It can go in any control deck, stop all 2-power attackers, and be sac'd for life if destroyed or trading in combat. Combine his effect with cards like Genesis, Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold... and that's a chump-blocking life-gaining critter that aggro just can't overcome.
Pithing Needle is an answer to too many cards in the cube to ignore it. For the low price of 1, it blanks planeswalkers, problematic lands, and powerful artifacts. It's a valuable tool for pretty much every deck, and the cost is just to efficient to cut it.
Waterfront Bouncer is a discard engine and a recurring bounce spell. It's been really, really great for us, and is currently nowhere near the chopping block.
Thieving Magpie? Really? That card's been great in every cube I've played. Recurring card draw on-a-stick... with evasion. He's solid. People underestimate his value and let him go for awhile. I've won several games of the back of the Magpie.
Rainbow Efreet is great too. If you've got the mana to defend it, it dies to nothing that doesn't have split second. It's the most resilient creature in the cube.
Hinder is great. It's a hard-counter when you need one, and a tempo-counter when you need one. I love it.
Memory Lapse is fantastic. When played in the early stages of the game, it's practically like a 2nd Time Walk. When played in the later stages, you can deny the opponent a top-deck they desperately need by forcing them to redraw a spell they can't win with. Tempo counters are cool. See: Remand. That's another great one.
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I find it hard to fault any of the choices. Sure there are cards missing, but on a 500 cube cuts are tough.
I am tempted to make the swap from Boomerang to Roil. I will miss the turn 2: Boomerang your Karoo, but the splashability and added utility of Roil is probably better.
I think the approach of having lots of lands is a good one. A heavy land section increases the proportion of cards drafted that will make your deck, which is all to the good in my opinion.
A couple of questions. First, is five colour control played much in your cube? The fixing is certainly there, but I would guess (from your descriptions of games and the look of your list) that yours is a fairly fast environment. Also, there are fewer of the good multicolour cards that reward a five-colour-player. (As an aside, Evan Erwin cut his Vivid lands because he found 5CC was too prevalent and powerful in his drafts. I think the real problem was his excess of multicolour.)
Second, have you consciously decided to support certain archetypes in this build, or did you just go for the 'best' cards?
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Ya, I think I can live without the Vivids. 5CC is certainly still a viable archetype, but I remove a lot of cards that force that deck. It doesn't need those kinds of cards to remain a solid archetype. Using more 2-color fixing and less 5-color support will help two-color decks get the fixing they need, and not really hurting the 4 or 5 color control decks at all.
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Yeah u can do without the vivids, the artifacts u would have to cut doesn't outweigh the benefits of the vivids. I like the cut of the Multicolor section as well...
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Glad to hear. We drafted once so far with the <10% gold in the cube, and it's great. Every gold card is amazing (as they should be), and there's no gold chaff clogging up the draft. I like it much better w/ extra lands and less gold. What we've found, is that another WU fixing land is better for a WU deck than another white/blue gold card is.
..........
Also, I wanted to point out how much of a freakin' beating Goblin Guide is. Over the course of the three games I was capable of drawing him in, he did 22 damage. Averaging over 7 damage per time he was cast. That is ridiculous for R. He's silly good.
Also, Vampire Nighthawk is good.
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I was wondering why you put Pyroclasm in your cube instead of Volcanic Fallout, do you really feel that the -R makes a huge difference? I can see cases for either of these cards, just wanted your opinion.
Also, no Tooth and Nail, or All Suns' Dawn? You must really like to push green aggro [ which I envy ]. The 2 cards listed above are too good for me to remove them from my cube, but once again, wanted to hear your opinions.
Thanks,
We found that Pyroclasm doesn't get countered. The 2 damage kills very few blue creatures. The instant speed is good, but the cheaper cost is better (for the same reason I use Earthquake instead of Fault Line). We found that a turn 2 Pyroclasm on the draw kills the same number of creatures as a turn 3 Fallout (while also having you take less damage off of attacking aggro creatures), so I may as well just be playing a card that costs 2 instead of 3, and not give the opponent the chance to untap and play his pump spells or whatever. Plus, 1R is much easier to splash in a off-color deck (like UU/r control... where 'clasm is often played) than 1RR is. Plus, Pyroclasm and Fallout are more control-ish cards, where I'd want to be using sweepers that don't damage players too.
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How is this possible? Even my aggro decks in cube average 2.5 colors, and I think we run slightly less fixing than you, in a similar sized cube.
Different playstyles? Sacrificing power for consistency? I don't know. It's rare we see more than a 2-color deck around here. Note the fixing I have. No vivids or tri-lands... but five 2-color cycles. It's because those lands fit better into out playstyles.
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I certainly can understand this, but in an entire playgroup? Seems strange. Also it seems a bit shortsighted. If you clearly have the cube to play more colors easily, why wouldn't you? It seems like you need to do what we tell players to do when a group is undervaluing a card...draft it (in this case more than 2 colors) and beat them with the power it gives you.
EDIT: Saw you add. We have the same fixing, except no pain lands. No Vivids or tri's for us either. Duals and fetches make 3 color extremely possible though.
If I had less artifacts, smaller mono-color sections, more gold cards, and more 3+ color fixing lands, the 3+ color decks would be stronger. I've designed my cube with that in mind. We prefer to run consistent 2-color decks rather than splashing a 3rd or 4th color into every deck.
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Well then why not mono? Those are even more consistent?
What I am saying is that your cube is contructed to generate a decent amount of three color (or occasionally more) decks each draft that are just as consistent as a 2 color deck due to the fixing you've picked up. I can't see how that's not true.
That's not to say it doesn't happen, it's just that it's not as common as a straight 2-color deck.
And mono-colors happen occasionally, but you don't always have that option.
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I've read them, I just can't help but disagree. I run a very similar cube, with slightly less fixing (and no 3 color lands). Having a higher land and artifact count probably helps, but it can't affect too much since only a few more are going to show up per draft, and everyone is going to be gunning for them.
Also, my splashes are just as often, if not more often for mono cards than gold cards. There have been too many times when I've cracked a bomb in pack 3 that wasn't in my colors, or had a lot of fixing for a third color passed my way.
I mean, especially if no one esle is drafting three colors, you should be getting passes amazing fixing because people are only grabbing duals in their color combination.
It's completely possible that I'm wrong here, but I just can't wrap my head around not being able to fairly easily run a consistent deck in this cube that abuses three colors.
I never said it wasn't possible, or even that it didn't happen. All I said is that the cube is designed to better support 2-color decks, so 3+ color decks don't show up all the time.
More mono color, more artifacts, less gold, less 3+ color fixing.
Plus, we have different philosophies.
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Because you're a red aggressive deck. Your creatures will die but the goal is to kill their creatures and them as well. When your opponent starts to stabilize the board you can attack with your 2/2s into his larger creatures. He can block, or not. If he does you guys die, you fallout, his guys die, he takes two. You've just bought yourself more time to burn him out.
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