I think it’s so smart when a very impactful set like MH comes out to go up 90 cards and let some of the cards “breathe” to see what works. Update looks awesome, I think I’m most excited that almost all the colors have free spells now, I like that dynamic more than blue just have two forces. Happy modern horizons cubers!
I'd love to take credit for that, but I was planning on moving up to 540 even if the set bombed. Fortunately, I get to test out lots of new goodies and prune down as I begin to refine the new list.
Wow, just found this cube, great work. I think I'm going to try it out in paper. I have a bunch of questions I hope you have the time to answer.
Do you have an up-to-date guide of draft archetypes? Did you write anything about how and why you changed from 450 to 540?
How is this cube best drafted? 8 people with 3 packs of 15 cards? Do you do anything special when you have less than 8 people? How would you organize a "tournament" (casual, of course) with fewer people?
How many of each basic land do you find yourself needing with 8 players?
Glad you like the look of the cube! I'm more than happy to answer questions.
1. I don't have an up-to-date archetype guide. But most of them are pretty straight-forward. The infinite "oops I win" kinds of combo decks have been removed, so even the most powerful of plays leave the defending player with a window in which to interact. Aggro/Midrange/Control decks in pretty much any combination of colors are also viable, so "goodstuff" decks are still very much in contention to win drafts, in addition to blink/reanimate/sneak-show/stax/loam/other various archetypes.
2. The up to 540 fixed 6-player events. (Also answered in question 3.)
3. For 2-6 players, I recommend using Sight/Glimpse/Impulse Drafting (listed on the front page of this thread and in my pinned tweet on Twitter). They're alternative draft formats that allow for full-cube drafting even with small player counts.
4. ~30 basics of each type should be more than enough.
I have a problem with black as a colour in my 360 unpowered cube. This is my current cube list on cubecobra, not updated to MH2 yet and also still missing some cards that were too expensive for me to buy all at once: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/17yd
I struggle to get black an identity other than just the typical Reanimator and being an ok secondary colour if open. I hear that I'm not the only one who ever faced this problem. The current iteration of my cube has some cards fore grinding like Braids, Cabal Minion, Bitterblossom, and Recurring Nightmare. Also I tried to go with a discard theme and added stuff like Raven's Crime, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage, Smallpox and Gerrard's Verdict. While I wasn't able to test this much, when I did, it felt a little underpowered to me. Has anyone had experience with a discard strategy in cube and has some tips? Should I include cards like Tinybones, Trinket Thief, Waste Not and Tourach, Dread Cantor to make it more viable or would that be too gimmicky to work?
Why did you, wtwlf123, choose to have black have an aggressive role on your cube? Does it work well as monoblack? And if so, what makes it good in particular?
Black is a very successful color for us. Between Reanimator and Stax shells, it has an identity of its own, and it plays very well as an aggressive color, and as a support color for pretty much any deck.
Disruption pairs so perfectly with aggressive openings that playing Gravecrawlers and Duresses in the same shell naturally blend together. It works decently as monoblack, but we almost always play 2 colors anyways, even in aggressive decks.
I have a problem with black as a colour in my 360 unpowered cube. This is my current cube list on cubecobra, not updated to MH2 yet and also still missing some cards that were too expensive for me to buy all at once: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/17yd
I struggle to get black an identity other than just the typical Reanimator and being an ok secondary colour if open. I hear that I'm not the only one who ever faced this problem. The current iteration of my cube has some cards fore grinding like Braids, Cabal Minion, Bitterblossom, and Recurring Nightmare. Also I tried to go with a discard theme and added stuff like Raven's Crime, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage, Smallpox and Gerrard's Verdict. While I wasn't able to test this much, when I did, it felt a little underpowered to me. Has anyone had experience with a discard strategy in cube and has some tips? Should I include cards like Tinybones, Trinket Thief, Waste Not and Tourach, Dread Cantor to make it more viable or would that be too gimmicky to work?
Why did you, wtwlf123, choose to have black have an aggressive role on your cube? Does it work well as monoblack? And if so, what makes it good in particular?
If you don't mind, I can chime in.
I've personally tried a Black discard theme where I've played all the 2 mana black discard spells (no 1 drop aggressive creatures) with the intention of the discard cards helping in decks like Black-Red Disruptive Aggro, Black-Green midrange etc. I found the experiment play out decently well, especially in a combo heavy environment. The problem with a full on discard/ loam archetype is it is very difficult for black to keep up with the card advantage (ETB/ graveyard recursion/ card draw, especially draw 7) from the opponent. It provides a nice disruption for your powerful 2-4 drops such as Hazoret, Gideon etc. but I would not try to Liliana/ Pox them out.
The second consideration is Thoughtseize / Smokestack are both very strong cards, but after this point, the quality starts to drop off. The problem I had was Agonizing Remorse, Lost Hours aren't bad cards - but their 2 CMC really conflicted with the Cycle of talisman, Counter spells, 2 drops etc.
Personally, my black section helps to support Aristocrats/ Reanimator/ Inverter Combo/ Control and storm.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I think I'm gonna try out Waste Not, Tourach, Dread Cantor and Tinybones, Trinket Thief for a while to see how a discard based deck works out. Maybe it's also better combined with a different game plan, like aggro or combo. And mabye I come to the conclusion that it's not worth it.
What kind of deck goes amulet in for you? Is it just an allrounder or do you only want to play it with other ramp stuff or if you play lots of colors? And how does it compare to other mana rocks, like the signets?
I like to play Amulet in multicolor midrange decks (like most mana rocks). It gains extra value in the artifact.dec and places like that where being a 0 artifact is sometimes a benefit on its own. Double-on-color Signets are still better for their respective decks, but I like Amulet more than off-color ones. It's especially potent in decks loaded with powerful 3cc cards, since it allows you to bridge the 1->3 mana gap with ramp + fixing, rather than most of the other artifact-based ramp which tend to bridge different mana gaps.
How is Quicksilver Amulet working for you? I was thinking of finding room in my cube. I'm reorganizing and will have room for some more colorless cards and that one caught my attention. I know they're completely different, but do you like it over Scroll Rack or Liquimetal Torque?
Amulet's a good backup enabler for fatty cheating decks of all sorts. I think I like Rack and Torque more though, but that could just be personal taste.
Hey wtwlf123! Im copying your cube right now cause it seems to be liked by many i accumulated most of the cards and would like to print an archetype overview card (like this https://external-preview.redd.it/goUxwHVFPN8r6usnHBLXxfcqP6vS2tHhbz9xqwJ8pNA.jpg?auto=webp&s=426bf3f66a0c6dd3813e03677c82ed8e6d81bdc0 ) for all the color pairs for me and new players. Is there already something like this? if not, could you summerize the archetype of each color pair? i found an article about it that covers some of them, but its 2 years old and since then you're gone from 450 to 540.
thanks!
I don't have a current archetype guide, and the archetypes aren't broken out by guild. Sorry!
You can build generic aggro (or tempo), midrange, or control decks in any color/combination of colors. Additionally, you can build any of the commonly played archetypes in their various colors. Tokens/Anthems, Stax/Loam, the artifact.dec, Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Blink/ETB Abuse, Wildfire.dec, draw-7 shenanigans, super-ramp, etc, etc. There's a lot to do, a lot to explore, and plenty of ways to win. The instant "oops, I win" combos are gone (since drafting opportunities are at a premium and we want to make the most of the games we get to play) but nothing is banned in terms of raw power. Have fun exploring all the list has to offer, and feel free to stop by with any questions you have along the way!
Waaah. Just when I bit the bullet and bought a Quivertime to fit my 450cube + 150 basics.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Do you have an up-to-date guide of draft archetypes? Did you write anything about how and why you changed from 450 to 540?
How is this cube best drafted? 8 people with 3 packs of 15 cards? Do you do anything special when you have less than 8 people? How would you organize a "tournament" (casual, of course) with fewer people?
How many of each basic land do you find yourself needing with 8 players?
1. I don't have an up-to-date archetype guide. But most of them are pretty straight-forward. The infinite "oops I win" kinds of combo decks have been removed, so even the most powerful of plays leave the defending player with a window in which to interact. Aggro/Midrange/Control decks in pretty much any combination of colors are also viable, so "goodstuff" decks are still very much in contention to win drafts, in addition to blink/reanimate/sneak-show/stax/loam/other various archetypes.
2. The up to 540 fixed 6-player events. (Also answered in question 3.)
3. For 2-6 players, I recommend using Sight/Glimpse/Impulse Drafting (listed on the front page of this thread and in my pinned tweet on Twitter). They're alternative draft formats that allow for full-cube drafting even with small player counts.
4. ~30 basics of each type should be more than enough.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I have a problem with black as a colour in my 360 unpowered cube. This is my current cube list on cubecobra, not updated to MH2 yet and also still missing some cards that were too expensive for me to buy all at once: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/17yd
I struggle to get black an identity other than just the typical Reanimator and being an ok secondary colour if open. I hear that I'm not the only one who ever faced this problem. The current iteration of my cube has some cards fore grinding like Braids, Cabal Minion, Bitterblossom, and Recurring Nightmare. Also I tried to go with a discard theme and added stuff like Raven's Crime, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage, Smallpox and Gerrard's Verdict. While I wasn't able to test this much, when I did, it felt a little underpowered to me. Has anyone had experience with a discard strategy in cube and has some tips? Should I include cards like Tinybones, Trinket Thief, Waste Not and Tourach, Dread Cantor to make it more viable or would that be too gimmicky to work?
Why did you, wtwlf123, choose to have black have an aggressive role on your cube? Does it work well as monoblack? And if so, what makes it good in particular?
Disruption pairs so perfectly with aggressive openings that playing Gravecrawlers and Duresses in the same shell naturally blend together. It works decently as monoblack, but we almost always play 2 colors anyways, even in aggressive decks.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
If you don't mind, I can chime in.
I've personally tried a Black discard theme where I've played all the 2 mana black discard spells (no 1 drop aggressive creatures) with the intention of the discard cards helping in decks like Black-Red Disruptive Aggro, Black-Green midrange etc. I found the experiment play out decently well, especially in a combo heavy environment. The problem with a full on discard/ loam archetype is it is very difficult for black to keep up with the card advantage (ETB/ graveyard recursion/ card draw, especially draw 7) from the opponent. It provides a nice disruption for your powerful 2-4 drops such as Hazoret, Gideon etc. but I would not try to Liliana/ Pox them out.
The second consideration is Thoughtseize / Smokestack are both very strong cards, but after this point, the quality starts to drop off. The problem I had was Agonizing Remorse, Lost Hours aren't bad cards - but their 2 CMC really conflicted with the Cycle of talisman, Counter spells, 2 drops etc.
Personally, my black section helps to support Aristocrats/ Reanimator/ Inverter Combo/ Control and storm.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think I'm gonna try out Waste Not, Tourach, Dread Cantor and Tinybones, Trinket Thief for a while to see how a discard based deck works out. Maybe it's also better combined with a different game plan, like aggro or combo. And mabye I come to the conclusion that it's not worth it.
On a completely different note: I am thinking about testing the following three cards:
Jeweled Amulet
Grafted Wargear
Bonesplitter
How do these cards play out for y'all? Are they worth a shot?
Amulet provides fixing for CC costed spells, and it also ramps. Bonesplitter is a solid playable in most beatdown decks. Pretty big fan of both.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
How is Quicksilver Amulet working for you? I was thinking of finding room in my cube. I'm reorganizing and will have room for some more colorless cards and that one caught my attention. I know they're completely different, but do you like it over Scroll Rack or Liquimetal Torque?
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
thanks!
You can build generic aggro (or tempo), midrange, or control decks in any color/combination of colors. Additionally, you can build any of the commonly played archetypes in their various colors. Tokens/Anthems, Stax/Loam, the artifact.dec, Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Blink/ETB Abuse, Wildfire.dec, draw-7 shenanigans, super-ramp, etc, etc. There's a lot to do, a lot to explore, and plenty of ways to win. The instant "oops, I win" combos are gone (since drafting opportunities are at a premium and we want to make the most of the games we get to play) but nothing is banned in terms of raw power. Have fun exploring all the list has to offer, and feel free to stop by with any questions you have along the way!
Cheers, and happy cubing.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!