The Visionary is a fine dude in pauper cubes but I think you did right by cutting him, especially for the new Paladin.
I never played with Cemetry or Opal in cube environment, so nothing I can say here.
Evolving Wilds is a very good addition. Every three and most two color decks want it.
Yeah, the visionary was much stronger when my cube worked harder to support enchantments. While enchantments are still very powerful, and he was still doing good work, I think he was no longer consistent enough of a source of CA to be worth holding that slot. Paladin on the other hand seems like a great way to add more power to aggro and midrange.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Oversold Cemetry --> Festering Goblin. Again even in pauper this card is bad. Its a million times worse Fume Spitter.
Evolving Wilds --> Temple of False God. A land that does nothing when you need the mana the most? When I have 5 lands the one mana extra this land produces shouldnt be that relevant. Vesuva, while not being great, at least is very versatile and can fix or copy a manland/utility land
Mox Opal --> If you want to cut a mana artifact card that would be Lotus Petal for me. But the clear cut to me is Tormod's Crypt
Festering Goblin may be the right cut, but it's never been bad for me. I'll need to mull it over. I was really hoping to cut a spell tho.
Temple is just too good for control decks. There's a reason it saw play all over the place as a 3-4 of in Onslaught block and T2, and it's continued to shine for us, even in this high-power environment.
I think I'm going to go through with Vesuva as the cut, but I'm willing to be persuaded to reverse it and go with another cut should anyone convince me otherwise.
Mox Opal... I dunno... Crypt is so good. Can you elaborate on the choice?
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I would run Chrome Mox before Mox Opal. Chrome has a much lower barrier to playability.
Chrome Mox was on my list to include for a long time, but my group felt it didn't slot easily into any drafting archetype. Opal on the other hand directly contributes to an archetype that we're trying to better support. I'm willing to be swayed though if you feel like elaborating on your position.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
To elaborate, Chrome Mox is fast mana. Fast mana goes into almost all archetypes. Metalcraft reduces the Opal's effectiveness as a fast mana option and makes it about as useful as a mana rock like Mind Stone or Coalition Relic, since the time when you can cast those is usually when metalcraft will come online in an ideal world. You already include a ton of mana rocks, so I don't think another card that serves the same function (but needs other cards to even fulfill it) would be as useful as the fast mana option.
I think you're probably right here with the pathfinder. The fact that it's not activateable until T3 makes it fit somewhat awkwardly on the curve, and thus on the weaker end outside the control match-up. I may change my mind once I get him, but for now, the change will be:
I would disagree with your evaluation of far wanderings though. We hit threshold fairly reliably and quickly here due to the higher thresh/madness support, especially when green is paired with blue, so wanderings is very often a 3-for-1 that ramps and gives a control deck obscene mana advantage.
To elaborate, Chrome Mox is fast mana. Fast mana goes into almost all archetypes. Metalcraft reduces the Opal's effectiveness as a fast mana option and makes it about as useful as a mana rock like Mind Stone or Coalition Relic, since the time when you can cast those is usually when metalcraft will come online in an ideal world. You already include a ton of mana rocks, so I don't think another card that serves the same function (but needs other cards to even fulfill it) would be as useful as the fast mana option.
Hmmmm... That's a very good point. So the card disadvantage is worth it on chrome mox in the less-tuned decks that draft creates? (Cube decks may be nearly constructed power levels, but I always had a tough time with chrome mox outside of specific decks)
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I personally don't think it's worth it, and I don't include it. But I can't deny that the fast mana is a powerful boost, and lots of cubers here play it I think. It has a bit of an all-in feel to it due to the card disadvantage and the potential of getting 2-for-1ed, but if you get multiple activations out of it then you can clearly see it's a good choice for inclusion. Might be a decent subject for the This or That Thread.
6th ed! wow, and i thought my list was out there.
our cubes share many philosophic similarities, and i know how you feel only getting a couple new cards per set. it's kind of reassuring actually to see this list because i know i'm not the only one who's been pushed by wotc to this point of a full break from their "canonical game".
maybe we should form an alliance of Planeswalkers Banned Cubes : -D
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I personally don't think it's worth it, and I don't include it. But I can't deny that the fast mana is a powerful boost, and lots of cubers here play it I think. It has a bit of an all-in feel to it due to the card disadvantage and the potential of getting 2-for-1ed, but if you get multiple activations out of it then you can clearly see it's a good choice for inclusion. Might be a decent subject for the This or That Thread.
6th ed! wow, and i thought my list was out there.
our cubes share many philosophic similarities, and i know how you feel only getting a couple new cards per set. it's kind of reassuring actually to see this list because i know i'm not the only one who's been pushed by wotc to this point of a full break from their "canonical game".
maybe we should form an alliance of Planeswalkers Banned Cubes : -D
6th ed rules aren't that far out there, most players either played under them or can grasp them fairly easily (they were after all the last rules set prior to M10). Besides, the extra depth they lend to the game is more than worth it
But yeah, the deviation from the philosophy of traditional cubes truly makes all the difference. It's a radically different format.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Also, I don't have a spare Chrome Mox atm, so I'll be giving Mox Opal a whirl in the interim. If it performs, great. If not, no harm done, and it will come out.
I'll be cutting Cromat for this since he just hasn't been seeing enough play.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
6th ed rules? That's a cool idea actually. Many players in my group are old schoolers and have expressed distaste for the evolving game. I can probably sell them on this idea. I do like damage on the stack as I think it adds more complexity to combat which is good thing.
I'm also on the fence myself about whether to keep titans in my list or not. When a single creature card makes half a dozen other creature cards suddenly un-cubeworthy due to the huge power discrepancy, I have to question whether they are good additions to the cube or not. I can appreciate having bomb cards though (and it's not like the Titans are the only completely busted cards in my cube), so I see both sides. One thing I will say though is that I do not believe adding the most powerful card is always the right decision, and I know I'm in the minority in thinking that.
Your list looks like it's evolving nicely BTW. My only comment is have you thought about completing the set of Mirrodin swords (and if you responded to that already, I apologize)? I'm not sure the new ones are any more busted than the old ones (fire and ice at least).
How many players do you usually draft with and how has that worked with such a large cube? Mine is currently 450, but I had to make a lot of hard cuts to get it that low and I've debated on expanding it.
I do like damage on the stack as I think it adds more complexity to combat which is good thing.
I understand the desire to play with old school rules, as I'm an old-school player myself. But for the sake of beating a dead horse, I'll comment on this part of your statement.
It actually removes complexity from combat. Stacked damage provides one "right way" to play. There's no decision making to be had, you always just stack damage. Removing this actually makes combat decisions more interesting and complex because you have to decide if you wanna take the damage or the effect you're trying to pair it with. Instead of always having one correct course of action, it increases the number of game-time decisions that have to be made, which adds to the depth and complexity of board situations.
6th ed rules? That's a cool idea actually. Many players in my group are old schoolers and have expressed distaste for the evolving game. I can probably sell them on this idea. I do like damage on the stack as I think it adds more complexity to combat which is good thing.
Yeah, we love it
I'm also on the fence myself about whether to keep titans in my list or not. When a single creature card makes half a dozen other creature cards suddenly un-cubeworthy due to the huge power discrepancy, I have to question whether they are good additions to the cube or not. I can appreciate having bomb cards though (and it's not like the Titans are the only completely busted cards in my cube), so I see both sides. One thing I will say though is that I do not believe adding the most powerful card is always the right decision, and I know I'm in the minority in thinking that.
Titans were excluded from my list for the power shift they represented. We like seeing a bit of push and pull between the power/toughness of a creature and the ability strapped onto it. Additionally, excluding titans creates a less bomb-centric game. We don't mind seeing explosive plays or one creature go the distance, but there is a difference between watching a protected morphling or masticore get there versus watching a grave titan go the distance. Baneslayer Angel and Wurmcoil Engine have been excluded on the same grounds.
Excluding the titans is definitely one of our more controversial choices, especially as we let other new cards trickle in, but it's not a choice I have ever regretted.
Your list looks like it's evolving nicely BTW. My only comment is have you thought about completing the set of Mirrodin swords (and if you responded to that already, I apologize)? I'm not sure the new ones are any more busted than the old ones (fire and ice at least).
Thank you
We've been eying the swords. If anything, I think I will let it wait until the standard players try to dump them in response to the rotation. I'm still not sure whether or not I'll want them in at that time, but we've liked the original two, so the last three will certainly be carefully evaluated.
How many players do you usually draft with and how has that worked with such a large cube? Mine is currently 450, but I had to make a lot of hard cuts to get it that low and I've debated on expanding it.
We've recently been seeing between 6 and 9. What the larger size does is it makes it less certain that any card will show up in draft. This has a number of effects.
First, it means that archetype lynchpins like armageddon/ravages of war for aggro, wild mongrel for madness, etc. won't necessarily make it into the pool, so it can make forcing an archetype a more dangerous proposition, because hypothetically, the cards you expect to pick up later just won't be cracked. As you can imagine, this makes supporting niche archetypes a more intensive endeavour.
Second, it means that the format doesn't go stale. You never know what the exact pool will be, and you get to see a wider variety of awesome cards. This keeps it feeling new and exciting.
Lastly, it means that you can stretch if you have more people than normal. I supported 2 8-player pods with my cube on one occasion before, this just isn't possible at smaller sizes, let alone if you need an entire extra pack on top of that for something like booster tutor.
I understand the desire to play with old school rules, as I'm an old-school player myself. But for the sake of beating a dead horse, I'll comment on this part of your statement.
It actually removes complexity from combat. Stacked damage provides one "right way" to play. There's no decision making to be had, you always just stack damage. Removing this actually makes combat decisions more interesting and complex because you have to decide if you wanna take the damage or the effect you're trying to pair it with. Instead of always having one correct course of action, it increases the number of game-time decisions that have to be made, which adds to the depth and complexity of board situations.
Just my $0.02,
Carry on.
I'm not so sure. You are correct that for cards like sakura-tribe elder, there was one right play and one play only.
But stacked damage also dramatically increased which cards functioned as combat tricks. When repulse and every bounce/blink goes from being a tempo card to also being a potential 2-for-1 kill spell, combat gets much more complex, simply because effective combat tricks automatically spike. This is why momentary blink and whitemane lion were so good in TSP draft, they were excellent combat tricks. Stacked damage gave more options to your dudes on the field, and as you say, the options could get very linear, but it dramatically increased the game of reading your opponent for what might be in his hand because so many more cards could make combat shift in his or her favour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
It doesn't make it more complex. It just makes everything strictly better. Whitemane Lion's ability to be a 2-for-1 doesn't make it more complex. It makes it more simple. You can still flash it in to save a blocker, but you can't flash it in to save a blocker and kill their attacker at the same time. Removing stacked damage increases the importance of decision-making by creating situations where there's no "strictly best" way to play out given scenarios. Which increases the complexity.
But you're only looking at it from the whitemane player's point of view.
Let's say I have a 6/6 and I'm swinging in at my opponent's board of a 5/5 and 1/1 and WW open. Under new rules, I have no fear. I either kill both their fatty and 1/1, or they save one of their guys with whitemane lion or momentary blink and mine lives. My opponent has less options, so my own game against them is less complex.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Let's say I have a 6/6 and I'm swinging in at my opponent's board of a 5/5 and 1/1 and WW open. Under new rules, I have no fear. I either kill both their fatty and 1/1, or they save one of their guys with whitemane lion or momentary blink and mine lives. My opponent has less options, so my own game against them is less complex.
Couldn't you flash in the lion, bounce the 1/1, block with the 5/5 and the Lion, kill the attacker and not lose 2 guys?
The controller of the 6/6 still has to fear combat tricks.
But all you're doing with the Lion in the old rules is making it strictly better. You're not really adding more options, you're just making there be one "right" way to play it. Instead of having your cake and eating it too, you now have to decide between the two. That makes all the decision-making more valuable. Which, in turn, makes things more complex and interesting.
rascals, one thing i learned a long time ago is that around topics like planeswalkers, stacking damage, and power creep there are deeply entrenched talking points in the zeitgeist around here and in magic players in general. you can talk in circles for days and get nowhere.
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I'm definitely going to suggest this with my group. I think they will like the idea.
Titans were excluded from my list for the power shift they represented. We like seeing a bit of push and pull between the power/toughness of a creature and the ability strapped onto it. Additionally, excluding titans creates a less bomb-centric game. We don't mind seeing explosive plays or one creature go the distance, but there is a difference between watching a protected morphling or masticore get there versus watching a grave titan go the distance. Baneslayer Angel and Wurmcoil Engine have been excluded on the same grounds.
Excluding the titans is definitely one of our more controversial choices, especially as we let other new cards trickle in, but it's not a choice I have ever regretted.
I just pulled all the mythic rares out of my cube list and replaced them with cards that hopefully add more support for the archetypes I want to support. I don't like "I win" cards, and I think a lot of the new cards being printed basically are exactly that. Eidolon really brought that to my attention when he compared grave titan and skeletal vampire. The power difference is stark and Batman was already a good card. Grave Titan is just plain broken.
I may eventually add a few of the less busted mythics back in as I think some of them are well designed and not format warping. But I don't think any of the titans will end up in my cube, or baneslayer angel or wurmcoil engine. You are right on the money IMO.
We've been eying the swords. If anything, I think I will let it wait until the standard players try to dump them in response to the rotation. I'm still not sure whether or not I'll want them in at that time, but we've liked the original two, so the last three will certainly be carefully evaluated.
I pulled them out for now as they are mythics. I want to start without them and see if they truly are needed. And then I'll have to evaluate them. It was hard for me to pull the new swords out because I really like equipment. But I don't want games revolving around who drops their sword first (like in Kamigawa and how many games turned into the battle of Jitte).
We've recently been seeing between 6 and 9. What the larger size does is it makes it less certain that any card will show up in draft. This has a number of effects.
First, it means that archetype lynchpins like armageddon/ravages of war for aggro, wild mongrel for madness, etc. won't necessarily make it into the pool, so it can make forcing an archetype a more dangerous proposition, because hypothetically, the cards you expect to pick up later just won't be cracked. As you can imagine, this makes supporting niche archetypes a more intensive endeavour.
Second, it means that the format doesn't go stale. You never know what the exact pool will be, and you get to see a wider variety of awesome cards. This keeps it feeling new and exciting.
Lastly, it means that you can stretch if you have more people than normal. I supported 2 8-player pods with my cube on one occasion before, this just isn't possible at smaller sizes, let alone if you need an entire extra pack on top of that for something like booster tutor.
My group will likely be smaller. I'm guessing 5 people will be normal which equates to half of my cube. I most likely won't go larger unless drafts end up repetitive and predictable. But I don't think they will. I also want to support niche things like reanimator which I think becomes very hard to draft in larger cubes (though I could be wrong). That's not to say I want every draft to have a reanimator deck, but I'd like it to be possible if the right cards come up (because I love playing it).
It doesn't make it more complex. It just makes everything strictly better. Whitemane Lion's ability to be a 2-for-1 doesn't make it more complex. It makes it more simple. You can still flash it in to save a blocker, but you can't flash it in to save a blocker and kill their attacker at the same time. Removing stacked damage increases the importance of decision-making by creating situations where there's no "strictly best" way to play out given scenarios. Which increases the complexity.
I can see the argument both ways. Not saying M10 rules are better or worse. What I am saying though is that 6th edition is familiar. One thing I don't want to do is alienate my group by throwing a new ruleset at them. Again, many are older players and many have expressed distaste with the evolving game. Magic was a good game back in the day. It didn't need changing.
I'm going to sort of rant a little here. My intent is not to start a flame war though. Each of us has their own opinion and no one is more right than the other. I respect what each of you has to say. One thing that bothers me though is this "newer is better" phenomenon. It isn't just with magic either. It's everything. iPad 2 sucks because there's iPad 3. But six months ago, iPad 2 was awesome. Just because D&D 4.0 exists doesn't mean D&D 3.0 or D&D 2.0 or D&D 1.0 suddenly became bad games. It doesn't make any damn sense.
I'll admit that the addition of a new card type and the introduction of a new rarity (for no reason other than to jack up card prices) really rubbed me the wrong way. And I tend to hold grudges. And maybe by rejecting M10 and most of what came after it I might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But I'm sort of stubborn like that.
Having said all that, if the group I play with wants to use the current rules, I'll go with that. But I definitely like the idea of running 6th edition rules.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Eidolon really brought that to my attention when he compared grave titan and skeletal vampire. The power difference is stark and Batman was already a good card. Grave Titan is just plain broken.
batman is a perfect example. i'm about to cut him from my cube because every other option is just soooo much better. the new cards are off the charts in power level, and i'll never let a single titan in.
It was hard for me to pull the new swords out because I really like equipment. But I don't want games revolving around who drops their sword first (like in Kamigawa and how many games turned into the battle of Jitte).
body and mind and feast and famine are just nuts. i love the hell out of equips, but these new ones are nothing like the old. you don't grind out a game on them, you just connect and win.
One thing that bothers me though is this "newer is better" phenomenon. It isn't just with magic either. It's everything. iPad 2 sucks because there's iPad 3. But six months ago, iPad 2 was awesome. Just because D&D 4.0 exists doesn't mean D&D 3.0 or D&D 2.0 or D&D 1.0 suddenly became bad games. It doesn't make any damn sense.
that's consumer culture for you.
and wizards is just gonna amp up that cycle now. they have to, they trapped themselves.
the irritating thing is the way they're actively wiping out any vestiges of the old game. the way they approached killing extended and creating "modern" says it all about how little a **** they give about anyone who isn't furiously tearing through boxes of new product every couple months.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Quote from votan »
:ER:, you suck as a hero
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Yeah, the visionary was much stronger when my cube worked harder to support enchantments. While enchantments are still very powerful, and he was still doing good work, I think he was no longer consistent enough of a source of CA to be worth holding that slot. Paladin on the other hand seems like a great way to add more power to aggro and midrange.
Did you have any opinions on prospects for cuts?
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Festering Goblin may be the right cut, but it's never been bad for me. I'll need to mull it over. I was really hoping to cut a spell tho.
Temple is just too good for control decks. There's a reason it saw play all over the place as a 3-4 of in Onslaught block and T2, and it's continued to shine for us, even in this high-power environment.
I think I'm going to go through with Vesuva as the cut, but I'm willing to be persuaded to reverse it and go with another cut should anyone convince me otherwise.
Mox Opal... I dunno... Crypt is so good. Can you elaborate on the choice?
Vesuva --> Evolving Wilds
And now, I figure a picture of the only proxy in my cube is long overdue!
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Chrome Mox was on my list to include for a long time, but my group felt it didn't slot easily into any drafting archetype. Opal on the other hand directly contributes to an archetype that we're trying to better support. I'm willing to be swayed though if you feel like elaborating on your position.
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On another note:
I may be picking up a Rofellos soon, any suggestions for the cut?
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Cheers,
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I think you're probably right here with the pathfinder. The fact that it's not activateable until T3 makes it fit somewhat awkwardly on the curve, and thus on the weaker end outside the control match-up. I may change my mind once I get him, but for now, the change will be:
Silverglade Pathfinder --> Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
I would disagree with your evaluation of far wanderings though. We hit threshold fairly reliably and quickly here due to the higher thresh/madness support, especially when green is paired with blue, so wanderings is very often a 3-for-1 that ramps and gives a control deck obscene mana advantage.
Hmmmm... That's a very good point. So the card disadvantage is worth it on chrome mox in the less-tuned decks that draft creates? (Cube decks may be nearly constructed power levels, but I always had a tough time with chrome mox outside of specific decks)
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My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
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our cubes share many philosophic similarities, and i know how you feel only getting a couple new cards per set. it's kind of reassuring actually to see this list because i know i'm not the only one who's been pushed by wotc to this point of a full break from their "canonical game".
maybe we should form an alliance of Planeswalkers Banned Cubes : -D
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Silverglade Pathfinder --> Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Not a bad idea. I'll pose it there.
6th ed rules aren't that far out there, most players either played under them or can grasp them fairly easily (they were after all the last rules set prior to M10). Besides, the extra depth they lend to the game is more than worth it
But yeah, the deviation from the philosophy of traditional cubes truly makes all the difference. It's a radically different format.
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Red:
Gamble
Blue:
Glen Elendra Archmage
Sower of Temptation
Spiketail Hatchling
Artifacts:
Black Vise
I'd like to find slots for all of these and Thirst for Knowledge. Any ideas?
Also, I don't have a spare Chrome Mox atm, so I'll be giving Mox Opal a whirl in the interim. If it performs, great. If not, no harm done, and it will come out.
I'll be cutting Cromat for this since he just hasn't been seeing enough play.
Cromat --> Mox Opal
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I'm also on the fence myself about whether to keep titans in my list or not. When a single creature card makes half a dozen other creature cards suddenly un-cubeworthy due to the huge power discrepancy, I have to question whether they are good additions to the cube or not. I can appreciate having bomb cards though (and it's not like the Titans are the only completely busted cards in my cube), so I see both sides. One thing I will say though is that I do not believe adding the most powerful card is always the right decision, and I know I'm in the minority in thinking that.
Your list looks like it's evolving nicely BTW. My only comment is have you thought about completing the set of Mirrodin swords (and if you responded to that already, I apologize)? I'm not sure the new ones are any more busted than the old ones (fire and ice at least).
How many players do you usually draft with and how has that worked with such a large cube? Mine is currently 450, but I had to make a lot of hard cuts to get it that low and I've debated on expanding it.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
I understand the desire to play with old school rules, as I'm an old-school player myself. But for the sake of beating a dead horse, I'll comment on this part of your statement.
It actually removes complexity from combat. Stacked damage provides one "right way" to play. There's no decision making to be had, you always just stack damage. Removing this actually makes combat decisions more interesting and complex because you have to decide if you wanna take the damage or the effect you're trying to pair it with. Instead of always having one correct course of action, it increases the number of game-time decisions that have to be made, which adds to the depth and complexity of board situations.
Just my $0.02,
Carry on.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Yeah, we love it
Titans were excluded from my list for the power shift they represented. We like seeing a bit of push and pull between the power/toughness of a creature and the ability strapped onto it. Additionally, excluding titans creates a less bomb-centric game. We don't mind seeing explosive plays or one creature go the distance, but there is a difference between watching a protected morphling or masticore get there versus watching a grave titan go the distance. Baneslayer Angel and Wurmcoil Engine have been excluded on the same grounds.
Excluding the titans is definitely one of our more controversial choices, especially as we let other new cards trickle in, but it's not a choice I have ever regretted.
Thank you
We've been eying the swords. If anything, I think I will let it wait until the standard players try to dump them in response to the rotation. I'm still not sure whether or not I'll want them in at that time, but we've liked the original two, so the last three will certainly be carefully evaluated.
We've recently been seeing between 6 and 9. What the larger size does is it makes it less certain that any card will show up in draft. This has a number of effects.
First, it means that archetype lynchpins like armageddon/ravages of war for aggro, wild mongrel for madness, etc. won't necessarily make it into the pool, so it can make forcing an archetype a more dangerous proposition, because hypothetically, the cards you expect to pick up later just won't be cracked. As you can imagine, this makes supporting niche archetypes a more intensive endeavour.
Second, it means that the format doesn't go stale. You never know what the exact pool will be, and you get to see a wider variety of awesome cards. This keeps it feeling new and exciting.
Lastly, it means that you can stretch if you have more people than normal. I supported 2 8-player pods with my cube on one occasion before, this just isn't possible at smaller sizes, let alone if you need an entire extra pack on top of that for something like booster tutor.
I'm not so sure. You are correct that for cards like sakura-tribe elder, there was one right play and one play only.
But stacked damage also dramatically increased which cards functioned as combat tricks. When repulse and every bounce/blink goes from being a tempo card to also being a potential 2-for-1 kill spell, combat gets much more complex, simply because effective combat tricks automatically spike. This is why momentary blink and whitemane lion were so good in TSP draft, they were excellent combat tricks. Stacked damage gave more options to your dudes on the field, and as you say, the options could get very linear, but it dramatically increased the game of reading your opponent for what might be in his hand because so many more cards could make combat shift in his or her favour.
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Let's say I have a 6/6 and I'm swinging in at my opponent's board of a 5/5 and 1/1 and WW open. Under new rules, I have no fear. I either kill both their fatty and 1/1, or they save one of their guys with whitemane lion or momentary blink and mine lives. My opponent has less options, so my own game against them is less complex.
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Couldn't you flash in the lion, bounce the 1/1, block with the 5/5 and the Lion, kill the attacker and not lose 2 guys?
The controller of the 6/6 still has to fear combat tricks.
But all you're doing with the Lion in the old rules is making it strictly better. You're not really adding more options, you're just making there be one "right" way to play it. Instead of having your cake and eating it too, you now have to decide between the two. That makes all the decision-making more valuable. Which, in turn, makes things more complex and interesting.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I'm definitely going to suggest this with my group. I think they will like the idea.
I just pulled all the mythic rares out of my cube list and replaced them with cards that hopefully add more support for the archetypes I want to support. I don't like "I win" cards, and I think a lot of the new cards being printed basically are exactly that. Eidolon really brought that to my attention when he compared grave titan and skeletal vampire. The power difference is stark and Batman was already a good card. Grave Titan is just plain broken.
I may eventually add a few of the less busted mythics back in as I think some of them are well designed and not format warping. But I don't think any of the titans will end up in my cube, or baneslayer angel or wurmcoil engine. You are right on the money IMO.
I pulled them out for now as they are mythics. I want to start without them and see if they truly are needed. And then I'll have to evaluate them. It was hard for me to pull the new swords out because I really like equipment. But I don't want games revolving around who drops their sword first (like in Kamigawa and how many games turned into the battle of Jitte).
My group will likely be smaller. I'm guessing 5 people will be normal which equates to half of my cube. I most likely won't go larger unless drafts end up repetitive and predictable. But I don't think they will. I also want to support niche things like reanimator which I think becomes very hard to draft in larger cubes (though I could be wrong). That's not to say I want every draft to have a reanimator deck, but I'd like it to be possible if the right cards come up (because I love playing it).
I can see the argument both ways. Not saying M10 rules are better or worse. What I am saying though is that 6th edition is familiar. One thing I don't want to do is alienate my group by throwing a new ruleset at them. Again, many are older players and many have expressed distaste with the evolving game. Magic was a good game back in the day. It didn't need changing.
I'm going to sort of rant a little here. My intent is not to start a flame war though. Each of us has their own opinion and no one is more right than the other. I respect what each of you has to say. One thing that bothers me though is this "newer is better" phenomenon. It isn't just with magic either. It's everything. iPad 2 sucks because there's iPad 3. But six months ago, iPad 2 was awesome. Just because D&D 4.0 exists doesn't mean D&D 3.0 or D&D 2.0 or D&D 1.0 suddenly became bad games. It doesn't make any damn sense.
I'll admit that the addition of a new card type and the introduction of a new rarity (for no reason other than to jack up card prices) really rubbed me the wrong way. And I tend to hold grudges. And maybe by rejecting M10 and most of what came after it I might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But I'm sort of stubborn like that.
Having said all that, if the group I play with wants to use the current rules, I'll go with that. But I definitely like the idea of running 6th edition rules.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Petradon --> Gamble
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My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
batman is a perfect example. i'm about to cut him from my cube because every other option is just soooo much better. the new cards are off the charts in power level, and i'll never let a single titan in.
body and mind and feast and famine are just nuts. i love the hell out of equips, but these new ones are nothing like the old. you don't grind out a game on them, you just connect and win.
that's consumer culture for you.
and wizards is just gonna amp up that cycle now. they have to, they trapped themselves.
the irritating thing is the way they're actively wiping out any vestiges of the old game. the way they approached killing extended and creating "modern" says it all about how little a **** they give about anyone who isn't furiously tearing through boxes of new product every couple months.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
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إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I guess stonecloaker or whitemane lion will likely finally make it in...
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules