Thanks again for the reply, and mentioning the byog and dragon pit-fight variants. I'm sure I'll give both a shot eventually, although the high of random generals and having to wrap your brain around a legend you might otherwise have never picked is still running strong with my group.
I don't get to draft even close to the amount I'd like, but I've had similar ideas about structured draft variants. Some of them include:
1. 5 Players, each one pulls a random praetor, then it's determined (choice, randomly) whether they personally draft shard or wedge. A game of last-praetor-standing ensues.
2. New custom generals. Before the day of the draft, each player is assigned two guilds and comes up with an entirely new legend (cheap boros general, ho!). Cards are submitted to the group for evaluation and vetoing of particularly broken ones. On the day of the game, the generals are pooled and distributed in a draft (hopefully stifling too much attachment to one's own creation). After the game(s), generals that were especially interesting/inspired can be saved for later incorporation in the cube, or dishonorably rejected as too warped, broken, or unfun.
-Dolono
AVR Updates: I've already incorporated Gisela into the cube, but will likely hold off on Sigard and Bruna, due to role overlap with already existing generals such as uril, geist, and zur.
I'm eagerly awaiting the release of miracle cards to test out in the cube!
Glad to see that you're back, B! I'd heard you moved back to NY. PM me sometime!
No one in my group has played saffi yet, general or even main deck. I don't know if it's that no one has had her in a pack, or that her white-hot throbbing power hasn't been obvious enough to my players.
I haven't subbed in Sigarda either; but she's made it into my AVR draft sim. I don't doubt that bruna is pretty fun, but I've been having a hard time figuring out cuts for the following facilitator cards: eldrazi conscription, false demise, +???.
Looking to add her to the cube ~ probably in the place of rasputin. I just don't know what to cut for conscription and probably false demise + battle mastery. Any suggestions for cuts and/or recommendations on other indispensable bruna cards would be very appreciated! I know that a resolved intution with bruna is pretty much a death sentence for at least one opponent, but as for other cool tech, I'm not as sure.
Hey Dolono,
the cube looks like a lot of fun. I am currently converting my 360 card 1v1 cube into an EDH cube using your list. Is there anything in particular I should know about that you have discovered in playtesting (that you havent mentioned yet of course)? Why was Blightsteel Collosus included and what would you sub it with if it wasnt? Isnt poision frowned upon in most circles? One hit and that player wins.
Thanks again for documenting this process and keep us informed on changes and updates in your playtesting.
Hey Dolono,
the cube looks like a lot of fun. I am currently converting my 360 card 1v1 cube into an EDH cube using your list. Is there anything in particular I should know about that you have discovered in playtesting (that you havent mentioned yet of course)? Why was Blightsteel Collosus included and what would you sub it with if it wasnt? Isnt poision frowned upon in most circles? One hit and that player wins.
Thanks again for documenting this process and keep us informed on changes and updates in your playtesting.
Theogony IX and myself maintain a successful EDH cube, as well. Link in signature.
If you're planning on converting a typical powered 360 cube to an EDH cube, prepare to not use a LOT of 360 auto-includes. EDH is a completely different format and requires totally different spells and strategies. Lightning Bolt, for example, a card that is in every single regular cube, should be nowhere near an EDH cube.
I don't think an EDH cube should be any more than 500 cards if you're not planning on playing with 8+ people on a consistent basis. Smaller cubes provide for tighter cube construction and better games. The entire point of cube construction and management is to stick with themes and use the color pie. Without that, you're just playing with a bunch of random cards. An EDH cube is no different.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Banner courtesy of Skizzik_NZ and Maelstrom Graphics
Yeah I have just finished seperating the 360 cube for cards that are in the EDH cube and have noticed that about half the list is irrelevant. You say an edh cube is good at 500 while this one is 670 and the OP seems to have a hard time cutting cards. Maybe I just dont understand cube construction well enough but if I have 500 cards and even numbers of cards in all colors can I just draft that with 4-6 people and add cards as I get them to get closer to 6 or 700?
Edit: Also Ive noticed it may be kind of wierd with just the one Sol Ring and the single Top there and was thinking about making it so before the draft every player gets a ring and a top for their pool and can build them into their decks if they choose so. What are your thoughts on this ruling?
EDH is a completely different format and requires totally different spells and strategies. Lightning Bolt, for example, a card that is in every single regular cube, should be nowhere near an EDH cube.
I would still run that in an EDH cube People are coming around to it and burn in general as an answer for cheap generals like Edric who is particularly powerful.
Thanks for the replies everyone! I was drafting up a response to DD's post from yesterday, but since there's a conversation going on, I'll just jot down some thoughts, related to some of the points raised by LC and Goodking.
* This cube initially started out as me despairing over my omnivorous purchasing habits with respect to edh. I started the format playing a couple specific generals, but quickly went nuts with the whole "oh man I need to try that general out," on a weekly basis. I had a lot of the staple cards from my regular collection and through acquiring collections from my lapsed friends, but the annoyance of my own playing habits and the tedium of switching decks all the time got to me.
Some friends of mine introduced me to cube about a year ago, which I hadn't felt all that drawn to in passing, but I was immediately blown away by how awesome the format was, and that it was a great way to finally get some use out of all the unused cards in my collection.
*To LC and DD's points on cube size: I initially envisioned my cube being a super tight 4-person cube, but abandoned this even before the cube was finished in favor of a larger cube. My reasons included, wanting more variance in card selection, more opportunities to facilitate strategies other than "good stuff," simply having a huge, dedicated edh collection that I wanted to flex, and finally, just trying not to put an artificial ceiling on the number of players (I usually get 4, but have had up to 8).
I think LC's point about a more focused collection is sound, but if you have a big edh-centric collection, than I think you should reach for the sky (like the "one general to rule them all" cube.
Theo and LC's cube, Wildfire's, and the 1 cube, are all structurally different from one another, contents wise, general draft section-wise, and obviously different in size; I think this is great, and demonstrates how uncharted edh-cubes are and how much variation one can build into them.
Being multiplayer, they are also incredibly error-proof as far as card balance goes. For better or worse, edh really allows you to play sloppier than normal 1v1 (depending on your group, of course.) I wouldn't be too scared on whether your 1v1 cube can be translated into edh in one go. For instance, I recently was looking at whether I could convert my edh cube into a 360-450 powered cube, and it didn't seem like it would take that much effort! In fact, given a lot of the spiky-er cube player's OCD-ness concerning curve, a 360 power cube might be a great launch pad into edh, and one with more fluid games.
* Lightning bolt is a bit of a place holder, when I stared getting the fear about curve, and threw in some lower cost cards to offset the average. I think it was a stand in for a bonefire of the damned that I never got. I also don't recall it being seen in a draft yet, but riku is one of my generals, and there are plenty of doubling and recursion effects in the cube to exploit a cheap, efficient spell like that.
* Finally, blightsteel was included as I combed the "top 50" card lists for edh. Our group and FLGS ususally house rules death-by-infect at 22 counters (more than general damage, less than full health). With all of the other lethal effects, and combos in my cube, I've actually been more afraid of blightsteel being too steep to cast, rather than too likely to steal a game.
Anyway, I've been rambling. Please feel free to ask more questions, or PM me some time.
Thanks for the wonderful and timely replies. So if cube size isnt as much of an issue when would be an alright time to start getting some playtests in...I have about 500 cards with a fairly even spread in color (though the power curve I am not sure on). Should I be sure each mana range has equal numbers in all colors before we can draft? should I wait for a specific size? Im just curious as with the 1v1 cube it was pretty important to wait until the whole thing was completed else your draft turn out janky.
Also you mentioned that you were worrying about the curve and that you started to add more low drops. If I preferred a different speed of gameplay is that all that I would need to do is sub out large cost cards for low drop cards and is it important to keep the ratios the same in regards to the ammount of each color at each mana range?
Sorry if this is a lot of wierd questions but I love the idea of drafting a different EDH deck every time my group meets as I am just like you Dolono...I have a hard time sticking with one commander and end up showing up to groups with 5+ decks.
As a general response to your post, Dank, I'd just say take the cube for a test run and see what works. As you probably know from your own cubing sessions, this format is highly experiential, and theory crafting and discussion can only take you so far until you just need to play the cube out. Even though I'm constantly making changes to my cube, I've had a blast every time I've played it, and even the first session vastly exceeded my expectations.
Try you cube at 500 and see if that is sufficient for the cube experience you want. If not, than expand it. Ask your players constantly for their feedback on card choices, whether the curve seems too high, whether mvp cards are missing, etc.
Finally, here were a couple other points I didn't get to in my last post:
* To your question on whether each person should get a sol ring, top, etc: One of my friends has raised the point now and again whether their should be card packages for some or all of the generals, including strategy specific cards that comprise the "best ruhan, rhys, riku, etc" builds. I've never wanted to do this for a couple reasons including the complexity of book keeping, debates over the 5+ slots that should make up these packages, and simply the desire to see what kinds of novel synergies my group is able to come up with without being forced.
As far as staples like sol ring, etc, I haven't noticed any reduction in the quality of people's decks as a result of the lack of these cards, or the novelty of their builds. I mentioned in a previous post that some of my draft players have come up with some inspiring decks, and I really mean this, all done without needing the safety blankets of sol rings and other staple cards.
* Back on the curve issue: The inclusion of 1-2 cmc cards was done opportunistically when I cut all the 3 and 5 color cards from the cube. To say I was "worried" about the curve is a bit strong, and was more of me caving to early comments about the cube being a of a higher average cmc than many conventional cube players seemed to like. Some of my players' were a little shocked at the cmcs of the early packs, but this didn't seem to affect the quality of the games we all played. When you draft 75+ cards in the draft, of all different purposes and cmcs, you can just tailor your deck with a better curve in mind, or one with more ramp in it to actually play all those 6 cmc bombs.
Most of the games don't really get started until aroun t4, which might rankle vintage and legacy-style cube players, but I don't think is atypical at all for edh. Most edh players I know and have read HATE it when a deck wins turn 3-5.
* Finally onto color balance: I have mixed feelings on this issue. For the most part, mine is color balanced, with the exceptions of no green signets (green has ramp instead), and no real color balance any more with utility non-basics (vault of the archangel, halimar depths, etc). This is another feature that I've never see become an issue in practice.
If I were really adventurous with the structure of the cube, I might throw out color balance, and instead start looking at those "top 50" lists that rank cards by actual incidence in players' edh decks.
Then, you might have a cube that skews Green/Black/Blue/Artifact with Red, White, and gold as the less represented colors. That's just an idea. I'm pretty dilettantish with my cube building, and am always interested in unconventional themes, card selections, and internal structures.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you like, DD! It's fun getting to share my thoughts and experiences with this cube. I hope you enjoy yours as well!
Hey thanks again for the info. My cube is about ready to draft! One thing I am worried about though is the playability of generals such as Captain Sisay and Uril due to the semi-random nature of cube drafting. Have you had any players draft either of these generals or other such niche commander? Have you noticed any difficulty creating decent decks with them or do they end up becoming choosen for the colors alone?
Hey thanks again for the info. My cube is about ready to draft! One thing I am worried about though is the playability of generals such as Captain Sisay and Uril due to the semi-random nature of cube drafting. Have you had any players draft either of these generals or other such niche commander? Have you noticed any difficulty creating decent decks with them or do they end up becoming choosen for the colors alone?
Thanks again for the inspiration and feedback
Here's how (IMHO) an edh cube should optimally handle build-around-me generals: the general draft phase. My group generally drafts 5 per pack, and like any normal first pack, you have decisions to make about whether to focus, keep yourself open, or some mixture of the two. Sisay and Uril in your example, and plenty of other BAM generals, can always be taken in a draft along with the more straightforward legends in their archetype and/or colors.
In a hypothetical situation, I might grab Uril, Gisela, Rhys, Sisay, and (get passed) Skullbriar. Since my cube is large enough that not every card will be seen each draft, I can, at the outset, start planning my color selections, but at the same time know that I may never see the right pieces for one or both to shine. In Uril and Sisay's case, I'll probably ere white in the early draft and keep and eye out for good red cards (gisela), W/G enchants (1st) and G/W legends that are winging (2nd).
If I were to see rancor and battle mastery early, I'd probably go for Uril. If I manage to spot Kaldra pieces early enough, I'd probably consider sisay.
To answer your question an alternate way, not every color combination possesses a good spectrum of quality generals (yet), and this is just an unfortunate situation in edh that we have to live with. For instance, R/W in my opinion is just completely bereft of a cheap, fast general. Until one is eventually released, or magic r&d picks up on this, we'll just have to wait until RtR.
For some of my guilds, I picked less optimal or more build-around-me generals simply because I didn't want too many overlaping roles in my games. Sigarda seems like a pretty awesome card, but I already made room in the cube to facilitate Uril and Zur, not to mention that I already have the hexproofed Geist in the mix. Including generals like Saffi, Rhys, and Sisay encourages players to try out strategies and archetypes more sophisticated than yet another voltron general (Uril, Geist, Zur, Ruhan, Thrax, Thromok, etc).
It's very cool to see more interest cropping up for EDH cubes. I've loved it since LC and I started drafting our's and can't get enough. I didn't even know Wildfire had an EDH cube on here. I need to find this!
Yeah, it turns out that curve is so much less important in an EDH cube than in your regular cube. Like Dolono said, games don't really start until turn 4, so making sure that you're advancing your game state at a steady rate is less important. And with so many people playing in the same game, a steady advance to where you eventually overwhelm your opponent's is much less likely. It still happens when a deck's synergy is that strong, or the right spells come together, but the reality is that your starting eight cards are playing against at least 16 in a three player game, and in our games it's my 8 versus 24 collectively amongst my opponents. It's rare that I'll be coming out of the gate so hot that my opponent's won't be able to shut me down. Games tend to swing around into different player's favor at different times. While deck construction is still an important part of the game, what I've found is that the EDH cube is less about having the perfect deck, and more about politics, waiting for the right opportunity, and sculpting the perfect play.
As far as cube size goes, it really comes down to how powerful and swingy you want your decks to be, how often you want to see the same cards, and how focused you want particular strategies to be.
The larger your cube, the more diffused the power level will be. Your super strong cards will not always be backed up by more super strong cards, they will float among less powerful cards. When a person gains an advantage with a super strong card, it will be harder to fight against it without an answer because your cards may not be as strong. Along this same line, the best answers will also be seen less. This means games will swing less. This also means that without those super strong cards, it will be harder for players to dominate a game.
In a smaller cube, explosive plays happen, and explosive answers level the field again regularly. Games swing a lot because every card is at peak performance. However, this means that without answers the gap between you and the dominant player becomes that much larger as time goes on. Dolono is right when he says that EDH cube has a buffer for misplays, but the smaller your cube gets, the thinner than buffer gets. We usually get one misplay in a game that another player can cover for, but more than that and a game becomes very hard to win.
The larger the cube, the less likely you are to see the same cards over and over again, but it also means that some cards may not be seen at all or in enough density. When you're trying to support a particular general as a path to victory rather than just a threat to play when you need one, or something to do when you have nothing else, then making sure that the cards that support them show up in a draft is easier in a smaller cube.
I'm sure I'm missing some of the finer details, but the only other difference I can think of between a larger cube and a smaller cube, and I think Dolono may have touched on this already, is that at some point there is a power level drop off for certain colors and not for others where the next best card in a color is worse than it's counterparts in the other colors. I'm really not sure where than line is though. I think in a regular cube it's around 400. I know that we haven't reached in yet in our EDH cube at 500, but I think we might if we increased our cube size to somewhere between 550 and 600.
I'm sure I'm missing some of the finer details, but the only other difference I can think of between a larger cube and a smaller cube, and I think Dolono may have touched on this already, is that at some point there is a power level drop off for certain colors and not for others where the next best card in a color is worse than it's counterparts in the other colors. I'm really not sure where than line is though. I think in a regular cube it's around 400. I know that we haven't reached in yet in our EDH cube at 500, but I think we might if we increased our cube size to somewhere between 550 and 600.
This phenomenon is observable when you look at the "real top 50" lists of average card incidence, vs the "top 50" list of agreed upon best cards for each color. The "real" lists skews heavily toward U/B/G and artifact, leaving white and red in the dust. That's why I suggested a proportional representation edh cube as a possible avenue to explore, although it might be boring if the whole table was playing U/x or G/x generals (not that this hasn't happened to me though; I hosted a game where 4/5 players were B/x).
While I agree with Theogony that this phenomenon exists in edh, and is even present in my cube, I think that a substantial mitigating factor is that people drafting edh decks are much less cutthroat in intent than regular cube drafters. Personally, I do not have the killer instinct when it comes to magic (in any format really), and I draft my own cube just to play cards I hated not using while they were sitting in my collection. Each session I've done has usually been 1-2 expert drafters + 1-2 causal players (me), + 1-2 lapsed players/noobs. Coupled with the multiplayer environment and politics, means you can throw expectations of who will win out the window, especially when alliances get made between noobs and causal players against the skilled drafters. This, I think, completely mirrors how it was at my flgs' edh nights, for better or worse.
Back on the topic of cube size, mine was built to the size that I "felt" was sufficient to use all the cards I wanted. I expanded mine once, when 400+ didn't feel like included all the staples and allstars I wanted, and once again when 40 legends didn't give me the variety I wanted during the general draft phase. If wizards manages another edh homerun with RtR and Commander 2, I will probably expand again. I'm dreading this though, as I blew $90 on sleeves that I probably cannot get ever again.
Finally, I agree on Theogony's point that if variance, and unpredictability is what you appreciate in draft, then a larger card pool is what you want. Since DD expressed concern that certain build-around-me generals might not get the tools they need in a given draft, then a smaller cube might be better for that person. Just to add one extra thought on this though, among myself and my more skilled friends, hate drafting colors' staples is a big part of our strategies. We're all prepared to sacrifice 3-6th card picks to hate draft things we don't want to see used against us. In my last draft as U/B ~ dralnu, I definitely went after W/G and as much graveyard hate as I could kill.
Hey quick question - Why was Kokusho, the Evening Star included when it is banned in EDH? Maybe I am missing something as I am relatively new to Magic in general. Perhaps it just works in your meta?
Also as a side note I found what seems to be a good replacement price wise for Ancient craving for people who may choose to build a similiar cube - Ambition's Cost.
Hey quick question - Why was Kokusho, the Evening Star included when it is banned in EDH? Maybe I am missing something as I am relatively new to Magic in general. Perhaps it just works in your meta?
Also as a side note I found what seems to be a good replacement price wise for Ancient craving for people who may choose to build a similiar cube - Ambition's Cost.
Kokusho and the moxes were included as flagrant, intentional violations of the edh ban list; my reasoning being that a. IMO, kokusho is no longer worth banning in the format, and Sheldon is even testing it's inclusion in his league play, likely as a prelude to an unban.
B. The moxes are sort of a nod to fusion of cube (power) and edh formats. Because edh staples like sol ring and green ramp are divided among the drafters, the inclusion of the moxes is intended as a way of balancing the fast mana available to all players. I have seen no evidence that the moxes have meaningfully unbalanced any game, and you'd have to be using the appropriate 2-3 color general to even legally use them.
I had an ugly white bordered ambition's cost in my cube, until I found a portal ancient craving in a 10 cent bin, and greedily snatched this up. It's not even the best black draw card, and is in my cube more as a personal trophy. Cards like disciple of bolas, night's whisper, and sign in blood are all, arguably, better choices.
In all my time playing edh, I've never been impressed by "play cards from your opponent's hand" effects, such as reversal of fortune. These always seem to either fizzle for me, or are not worth their steep CMCs. Ones that allow you to delve into an opponent's library (knowledge exploitation, praetor's grasp) or recur from an enemy's graveyard (memory plunder) on the other hand, I love. I suppose these different zone-theft cards can be analyzed by looking at the raw number of cards they allow you to look through for appropriate effects and answers: all libraries > all graveyards > all hands. Realistically, you're only going to get to look through about 3-5 cards per player, hoping to find an instant or sorcery (that you can't even kick either - rite of replication, tooth and nail) that is situationally appropriate. Not good odds in my opinion.
Further complicating matters is that in edh cube, you really have no assurance that your opponent's have even drafted the cards you're typically looking for. I've acquired in certain games, only to find that the person I selected had drafted no really meaningful artifact options for the spell to even target. The same goes for things like bribery. Some day I might cut acquire, which I think is probably a better option in constructed edh play, than cube. Everyone in constructed edh is probably packing a sol ring, worst case scenario. You can't depend on this if you're doing singleton edh cube.
Finally, while I can't remember encountering charmbreaker in any of my games, I do think this is a worthwhile include in an edh cube. With smaller deck sizes, the ability to cater your instant and sorcery selection to exploit the devil's ability is better than full 100-card edh. I think it's also worthwhile based on how high it's power can go, without too much effort.
Kokusho and the moxes were included as flagrant, intentional violations of the edh ban list; my reasoning being that a. IMO, kokusho is no longer worth banning in the format, and Sheldon is even testing it's inclusion in his league play, likely as a prelude to an unban.
B. The moxes are sort of a nod to fusion of cube (power) and edh formats. Because edh staples like sol ring and green ramp are divided among the drafters, the inclusion of the moxes is intended as a way of balancing the fast mana available to all players. I have seen no evidence that the moxes have meaningfully unbalanced any game, and you'd have to be using the appropriate 2-3 color general to even legally use them.
I'm actually planning on experimenting with this very same idea next time I Draft my cube. The particular ones I will be trying are:
Balance - Without the ability to secure huge amounts of artifact ramp this really is quite a bit more balanced. Fastbond - It's only "broken" with Crucible + Strip Mine, which people should be working to separate anyways. Kokusho, the Evening Star - Personally this and a few others should be unbanned in the format in general IMO Metalworker - Without the ability to secure a critical mass of artifacts this is not that ridiculous Painter's Servant - Might not even be good enough, as he'll only really combo with Iona, Savra, Teysa, and Momir Panoptic Mirror - This is broken with Time Magic, which has all been cut from the cube. Definitely fair without it Protean Hulk - Can't go auto-infinite without 1-mana sac outlets (which aren't in the cube). Much more difficult to infinite when you have to assemble all of the pieces. Recurring Nightmare - Personally I don't see this as all that powerful. It's good, but it's mostly banned out of the Kokusho backlash. Staff of Domination - It can only go infinite with Rofellos, Metalworker, and Magus of the Cabal out of the cards in the cube, and those all have pretty tricky conditions on them. Mox Ruby - It's the only mox I own, and I never get to use it. Red is also by far the weakest color in my cube right now, so it could use the boost.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I'm actually planning on experimenting with this very same idea next time I Draft my cube. The particular ones I will be trying are:
I love it. In my cube, I've actually included the cards necessary for a number of combos and back-breaking synergies. You're right that the draft itself really keeps down the potential for abuse, and therefore a bunch of these banned cards could definitely get a second look from those willing to push some boundaries in their edh cubes.
In my own drafting, I've almost always managed to get the urborg + coffers + deserted temple combo arranged when I've put my mind to it. I've also been able to get mikeaus + triskelion, but have never gone off. Some day, someone is probably going to wise up to the abuse potential of deadeye navigator + draining whelk and glen elendra archmage.
I love it. In my cube, I've actually included the cards necessary for a number of combos and back-breaking synergies. You're right that the draft itself really keeps down the potential for abuse, and therefore a bunch of these banned cards could definitely get a second look from those willing to push some boundaries in their edh cubes.
In my own drafting, I've almost always managed to get the urborg + coffers + deserted temple combo arranged when I've put my mind to it. I've also been able to get mikeaus + triskelion, but have never gone off. Some day, someone is probably going to wise up to the abuse potential of deadeye navigator + draining whelk and glen elendra archmage.
EDH wouldn't be EDH without combos. I've included a number of cards that can be used for combos. Some of them are great on their own, and some of them exist solely as combo components:
I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting too, as well as various 3+ card combos that can just sort of fall into place. Combos are generally not ridiculously powerful because you need to draft all of their pieces, then draw them with a lower concentration of tutors than normal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
To both Wildfire and Dolono, what do you guys think of Berserk in edh cube?
Also, can you rank these 10 cards in what you think is the order of power/necessity for a cube like ours from most powerful/necessary at the top to least at the bottom? Look forward to your opinions.
I don't get to draft even close to the amount I'd like, but I've had similar ideas about structured draft variants. Some of them include:
1. 5 Players, each one pulls a random praetor, then it's determined (choice, randomly) whether they personally draft shard or wedge. A game of last-praetor-standing ensues.
2. New custom generals. Before the day of the draft, each player is assigned two guilds and comes up with an entirely new legend (cheap boros general, ho!). Cards are submitted to the group for evaluation and vetoing of particularly broken ones. On the day of the game, the generals are pooled and distributed in a draft (hopefully stifling too much attachment to one's own creation). After the game(s), generals that were especially interesting/inspired can be saved for later incorporation in the cube, or dishonorably rejected as too warped, broken, or unfun.
-Dolono
AVR Updates: I've already incorporated Gisela into the cube, but will likely hold off on Sigard and Bruna, due to role overlap with already existing generals such as uril, geist, and zur.
I'm eagerly awaiting the release of miracle cards to test out in the cube!
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
i will be deeply hurt if you were to cut saffi for some other legend.
btw.... bruna is the truth. i dont know how well she will work out for cube, but in constructed EDH, she is BANANAS!
No one in my group has played saffi yet, general or even main deck. I don't know if it's that no one has had her in a pack, or that her white-hot throbbing power hasn't been obvious enough to my players.
I haven't subbed in Sigarda either; but she's made it into my AVR draft sim. I don't doubt that bruna is pretty fun, but I've been having a hard time figuring out cuts for the following facilitator cards: eldrazi conscription, false demise, +???.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
the cube looks like a lot of fun. I am currently converting my 360 card 1v1 cube into an EDH cube using your list. Is there anything in particular I should know about that you have discovered in playtesting (that you havent mentioned yet of course)? Why was Blightsteel Collosus included and what would you sub it with if it wasnt? Isnt poision frowned upon in most circles? One hit and that player wins.
Thanks again for documenting this process and keep us informed on changes and updates in your playtesting.
Theogony IX and myself maintain a successful EDH cube, as well. Link in signature.
If you're planning on converting a typical powered 360 cube to an EDH cube, prepare to not use a LOT of 360 auto-includes. EDH is a completely different format and requires totally different spells and strategies. Lightning Bolt, for example, a card that is in every single regular cube, should be nowhere near an EDH cube.
I don't think an EDH cube should be any more than 500 cards if you're not planning on playing with 8+ people on a consistent basis. Smaller cubes provide for tighter cube construction and better games. The entire point of cube construction and management is to stick with themes and use the color pie. Without that, you're just playing with a bunch of random cards. An EDH cube is no different.
Banner courtesy of Skizzik_NZ and Maelstrom Graphics
Currently Playing:
Anything U in Theogony IX's Cube: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5794231&postcount=1
Check out our EDH Cube! Constructive discussion welcomed. Hell, just a response would be nice.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8316611&postcount=1
Edit: Also Ive noticed it may be kind of wierd with just the one Sol Ring and the single Top there and was thinking about making it so before the draft every player gets a ring and a top for their pool and can build them into their decks if they choose so. What are your thoughts on this ruling?
I would still run that in an EDH cube People are coming around to it and burn in general as an answer for cheap generals like Edric who is particularly powerful.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
* This cube initially started out as me despairing over my omnivorous purchasing habits with respect to edh. I started the format playing a couple specific generals, but quickly went nuts with the whole "oh man I need to try that general out," on a weekly basis. I had a lot of the staple cards from my regular collection and through acquiring collections from my lapsed friends, but the annoyance of my own playing habits and the tedium of switching decks all the time got to me.
Some friends of mine introduced me to cube about a year ago, which I hadn't felt all that drawn to in passing, but I was immediately blown away by how awesome the format was, and that it was a great way to finally get some use out of all the unused cards in my collection.
*To LC and DD's points on cube size: I initially envisioned my cube being a super tight 4-person cube, but abandoned this even before the cube was finished in favor of a larger cube. My reasons included, wanting more variance in card selection, more opportunities to facilitate strategies other than "good stuff," simply having a huge, dedicated edh collection that I wanted to flex, and finally, just trying not to put an artificial ceiling on the number of players (I usually get 4, but have had up to 8).
I think LC's point about a more focused collection is sound, but if you have a big edh-centric collection, than I think you should reach for the sky (like the "one general to rule them all" cube.
Theo and LC's cube, Wildfire's, and the 1 cube, are all structurally different from one another, contents wise, general draft section-wise, and obviously different in size; I think this is great, and demonstrates how uncharted edh-cubes are and how much variation one can build into them.
Being multiplayer, they are also incredibly error-proof as far as card balance goes. For better or worse, edh really allows you to play sloppier than normal 1v1 (depending on your group, of course.) I wouldn't be too scared on whether your 1v1 cube can be translated into edh in one go. For instance, I recently was looking at whether I could convert my edh cube into a 360-450 powered cube, and it didn't seem like it would take that much effort! In fact, given a lot of the spiky-er cube player's OCD-ness concerning curve, a 360 power cube might be a great launch pad into edh, and one with more fluid games.
* Lightning bolt is a bit of a place holder, when I stared getting the fear about curve, and threw in some lower cost cards to offset the average. I think it was a stand in for a bonefire of the damned that I never got. I also don't recall it being seen in a draft yet, but riku is one of my generals, and there are plenty of doubling and recursion effects in the cube to exploit a cheap, efficient spell like that.
* Finally, blightsteel was included as I combed the "top 50" card lists for edh. Our group and FLGS ususally house rules death-by-infect at 22 counters (more than general damage, less than full health). With all of the other lethal effects, and combos in my cube, I've actually been more afraid of blightsteel being too steep to cast, rather than too likely to steal a game.
Anyway, I've been rambling. Please feel free to ask more questions, or PM me some time.
-Dolono
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Also you mentioned that you were worrying about the curve and that you started to add more low drops. If I preferred a different speed of gameplay is that all that I would need to do is sub out large cost cards for low drop cards and is it important to keep the ratios the same in regards to the ammount of each color at each mana range?
Sorry if this is a lot of wierd questions but I love the idea of drafting a different EDH deck every time my group meets as I am just like you Dolono...I have a hard time sticking with one commander and end up showing up to groups with 5+ decks.
Try you cube at 500 and see if that is sufficient for the cube experience you want. If not, than expand it. Ask your players constantly for their feedback on card choices, whether the curve seems too high, whether mvp cards are missing, etc.
Finally, here were a couple other points I didn't get to in my last post:
* To your question on whether each person should get a sol ring, top, etc: One of my friends has raised the point now and again whether their should be card packages for some or all of the generals, including strategy specific cards that comprise the "best ruhan, rhys, riku, etc" builds. I've never wanted to do this for a couple reasons including the complexity of book keeping, debates over the 5+ slots that should make up these packages, and simply the desire to see what kinds of novel synergies my group is able to come up with without being forced.
As far as staples like sol ring, etc, I haven't noticed any reduction in the quality of people's decks as a result of the lack of these cards, or the novelty of their builds. I mentioned in a previous post that some of my draft players have come up with some inspiring decks, and I really mean this, all done without needing the safety blankets of sol rings and other staple cards.
* Back on the curve issue: The inclusion of 1-2 cmc cards was done opportunistically when I cut all the 3 and 5 color cards from the cube. To say I was "worried" about the curve is a bit strong, and was more of me caving to early comments about the cube being a of a higher average cmc than many conventional cube players seemed to like. Some of my players' were a little shocked at the cmcs of the early packs, but this didn't seem to affect the quality of the games we all played. When you draft 75+ cards in the draft, of all different purposes and cmcs, you can just tailor your deck with a better curve in mind, or one with more ramp in it to actually play all those 6 cmc bombs.
Most of the games don't really get started until aroun t4, which might rankle vintage and legacy-style cube players, but I don't think is atypical at all for edh. Most edh players I know and have read HATE it when a deck wins turn 3-5.
* Finally onto color balance: I have mixed feelings on this issue. For the most part, mine is color balanced, with the exceptions of no green signets (green has ramp instead), and no real color balance any more with utility non-basics (vault of the archangel, halimar depths, etc). This is another feature that I've never see become an issue in practice.
If I were really adventurous with the structure of the cube, I might throw out color balance, and instead start looking at those "top 50" lists that rank cards by actual incidence in players' edh decks.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=388001
Then, you might have a cube that skews Green/Black/Blue/Artifact with Red, White, and gold as the less represented colors. That's just an idea. I'm pretty dilettantish with my cube building, and am always interested in unconventional themes, card selections, and internal structures.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you like, DD! It's fun getting to share my thoughts and experiences with this cube. I hope you enjoy yours as well!
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Thanks again for the inspiration and feedback
Here's how (IMHO) an edh cube should optimally handle build-around-me generals: the general draft phase. My group generally drafts 5 per pack, and like any normal first pack, you have decisions to make about whether to focus, keep yourself open, or some mixture of the two. Sisay and Uril in your example, and plenty of other BAM generals, can always be taken in a draft along with the more straightforward legends in their archetype and/or colors.
In a hypothetical situation, I might grab Uril, Gisela, Rhys, Sisay, and (get passed) Skullbriar. Since my cube is large enough that not every card will be seen each draft, I can, at the outset, start planning my color selections, but at the same time know that I may never see the right pieces for one or both to shine. In Uril and Sisay's case, I'll probably ere white in the early draft and keep and eye out for good red cards (gisela), W/G enchants (1st) and G/W legends that are winging (2nd).
If I were to see rancor and battle mastery early, I'd probably go for Uril. If I manage to spot Kaldra pieces early enough, I'd probably consider sisay.
To answer your question an alternate way, not every color combination possesses a good spectrum of quality generals (yet), and this is just an unfortunate situation in edh that we have to live with. For instance, R/W in my opinion is just completely bereft of a cheap, fast general. Until one is eventually released, or magic r&d picks up on this, we'll just have to wait until RtR.
For some of my guilds, I picked less optimal or more build-around-me generals simply because I didn't want too many overlaping roles in my games. Sigarda seems like a pretty awesome card, but I already made room in the cube to facilitate Uril and Zur, not to mention that I already have the hexproofed Geist in the mix. Including generals like Saffi, Rhys, and Sisay encourages players to try out strategies and archetypes more sophisticated than yet another voltron general (Uril, Geist, Zur, Ruhan, Thrax, Thromok, etc).
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Yeah, it turns out that curve is so much less important in an EDH cube than in your regular cube. Like Dolono said, games don't really start until turn 4, so making sure that you're advancing your game state at a steady rate is less important. And with so many people playing in the same game, a steady advance to where you eventually overwhelm your opponent's is much less likely. It still happens when a deck's synergy is that strong, or the right spells come together, but the reality is that your starting eight cards are playing against at least 16 in a three player game, and in our games it's my 8 versus 24 collectively amongst my opponents. It's rare that I'll be coming out of the gate so hot that my opponent's won't be able to shut me down. Games tend to swing around into different player's favor at different times. While deck construction is still an important part of the game, what I've found is that the EDH cube is less about having the perfect deck, and more about politics, waiting for the right opportunity, and sculpting the perfect play.
As far as cube size goes, it really comes down to how powerful and swingy you want your decks to be, how often you want to see the same cards, and how focused you want particular strategies to be.
The larger your cube, the more diffused the power level will be. Your super strong cards will not always be backed up by more super strong cards, they will float among less powerful cards. When a person gains an advantage with a super strong card, it will be harder to fight against it without an answer because your cards may not be as strong. Along this same line, the best answers will also be seen less. This means games will swing less. This also means that without those super strong cards, it will be harder for players to dominate a game.
In a smaller cube, explosive plays happen, and explosive answers level the field again regularly. Games swing a lot because every card is at peak performance. However, this means that without answers the gap between you and the dominant player becomes that much larger as time goes on. Dolono is right when he says that EDH cube has a buffer for misplays, but the smaller your cube gets, the thinner than buffer gets. We usually get one misplay in a game that another player can cover for, but more than that and a game becomes very hard to win.
The larger the cube, the less likely you are to see the same cards over and over again, but it also means that some cards may not be seen at all or in enough density. When you're trying to support a particular general as a path to victory rather than just a threat to play when you need one, or something to do when you have nothing else, then making sure that the cards that support them show up in a draft is easier in a smaller cube.
I'm sure I'm missing some of the finer details, but the only other difference I can think of between a larger cube and a smaller cube, and I think Dolono may have touched on this already, is that at some point there is a power level drop off for certain colors and not for others where the next best card in a color is worse than it's counterparts in the other colors. I'm really not sure where than line is though. I think in a regular cube it's around 400. I know that we haven't reached in yet in our EDH cube at 500, but I think we might if we increased our cube size to somewhere between 550 and 600.
Happy EDH cubing!
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
This phenomenon is observable when you look at the "real top 50" lists of average card incidence, vs the "top 50" list of agreed upon best cards for each color. The "real" lists skews heavily toward U/B/G and artifact, leaving white and red in the dust. That's why I suggested a proportional representation edh cube as a possible avenue to explore, although it might be boring if the whole table was playing U/x or G/x generals (not that this hasn't happened to me though; I hosted a game where 4/5 players were B/x).
While I agree with Theogony that this phenomenon exists in edh, and is even present in my cube, I think that a substantial mitigating factor is that people drafting edh decks are much less cutthroat in intent than regular cube drafters. Personally, I do not have the killer instinct when it comes to magic (in any format really), and I draft my own cube just to play cards I hated not using while they were sitting in my collection. Each session I've done has usually been 1-2 expert drafters + 1-2 causal players (me), + 1-2 lapsed players/noobs. Coupled with the multiplayer environment and politics, means you can throw expectations of who will win out the window, especially when alliances get made between noobs and causal players against the skilled drafters. This, I think, completely mirrors how it was at my flgs' edh nights, for better or worse.
Back on the topic of cube size, mine was built to the size that I "felt" was sufficient to use all the cards I wanted. I expanded mine once, when 400+ didn't feel like included all the staples and allstars I wanted, and once again when 40 legends didn't give me the variety I wanted during the general draft phase. If wizards manages another edh homerun with RtR and Commander 2, I will probably expand again. I'm dreading this though, as I blew $90 on sleeves that I probably cannot get ever again.
Finally, I agree on Theogony's point that if variance, and unpredictability is what you appreciate in draft, then a larger card pool is what you want. Since DD expressed concern that certain build-around-me generals might not get the tools they need in a given draft, then a smaller cube might be better for that person. Just to add one extra thought on this though, among myself and my more skilled friends, hate drafting colors' staples is a big part of our strategies. We're all prepared to sacrifice 3-6th card picks to hate draft things we don't want to see used against us. In my last draft as U/B ~ dralnu, I definitely went after W/G and as much graveyard hate as I could kill.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Also as a side note I found what seems to be a good replacement price wise for Ancient craving for people who may choose to build a similiar cube - Ambition's Cost.
Kokusho and the moxes were included as flagrant, intentional violations of the edh ban list; my reasoning being that a. IMO, kokusho is no longer worth banning in the format, and Sheldon is even testing it's inclusion in his league play, likely as a prelude to an unban.
B. The moxes are sort of a nod to fusion of cube (power) and edh formats. Because edh staples like sol ring and green ramp are divided among the drafters, the inclusion of the moxes is intended as a way of balancing the fast mana available to all players. I have seen no evidence that the moxes have meaningfully unbalanced any game, and you'd have to be using the appropriate 2-3 color general to even legally use them.
I had an ugly white bordered ambition's cost in my cube, until I found a portal ancient craving in a 10 cent bin, and greedily snatched this up. It's not even the best black draw card, and is in my cube more as a personal trophy. Cards like disciple of bolas, night's whisper, and sign in blood are all, arguably, better choices.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
I'm jealous, that was a steal.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
In all my time playing edh, I've never been impressed by "play cards from your opponent's hand" effects, such as reversal of fortune. These always seem to either fizzle for me, or are not worth their steep CMCs. Ones that allow you to delve into an opponent's library (knowledge exploitation, praetor's grasp) or recur from an enemy's graveyard (memory plunder) on the other hand, I love. I suppose these different zone-theft cards can be analyzed by looking at the raw number of cards they allow you to look through for appropriate effects and answers: all libraries > all graveyards > all hands. Realistically, you're only going to get to look through about 3-5 cards per player, hoping to find an instant or sorcery (that you can't even kick either - rite of replication, tooth and nail) that is situationally appropriate. Not good odds in my opinion.
Further complicating matters is that in edh cube, you really have no assurance that your opponent's have even drafted the cards you're typically looking for. I've acquired in certain games, only to find that the person I selected had drafted no really meaningful artifact options for the spell to even target. The same goes for things like bribery. Some day I might cut acquire, which I think is probably a better option in constructed edh play, than cube. Everyone in constructed edh is probably packing a sol ring, worst case scenario. You can't depend on this if you're doing singleton edh cube.
Finally, while I can't remember encountering charmbreaker in any of my games, I do think this is a worthwhile include in an edh cube. With smaller deck sizes, the ability to cater your instant and sorcery selection to exploit the devil's ability is better than full 100-card edh. I think it's also worthwhile based on how high it's power can go, without too much effort.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
I'm actually planning on experimenting with this very same idea next time I Draft my cube. The particular ones I will be trying are:
Balance - Without the ability to secure huge amounts of artifact ramp this really is quite a bit more balanced.
Fastbond - It's only "broken" with Crucible + Strip Mine, which people should be working to separate anyways.
Kokusho, the Evening Star - Personally this and a few others should be unbanned in the format in general IMO
Metalworker - Without the ability to secure a critical mass of artifacts this is not that ridiculous
Painter's Servant - Might not even be good enough, as he'll only really combo with Iona, Savra, Teysa, and Momir
Panoptic Mirror - This is broken with Time Magic, which has all been cut from the cube. Definitely fair without it
Protean Hulk - Can't go auto-infinite without 1-mana sac outlets (which aren't in the cube). Much more difficult to infinite when you have to assemble all of the pieces.
Recurring Nightmare - Personally I don't see this as all that powerful. It's good, but it's mostly banned out of the Kokusho backlash.
Staff of Domination - It can only go infinite with Rofellos, Metalworker, and Magus of the Cabal out of the cards in the cube, and those all have pretty tricky conditions on them.
Mox Ruby - It's the only mox I own, and I never get to use it. Red is also by far the weakest color in my cube right now, so it could use the boost.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I love it. In my cube, I've actually included the cards necessary for a number of combos and back-breaking synergies. You're right that the draft itself really keeps down the potential for abuse, and therefore a bunch of these banned cards could definitely get a second look from those willing to push some boundaries in their edh cubes.
<Rubs hands together evilly> ~ recurring nightmare + kokusho sounds delightful.
In my own drafting, I've almost always managed to get the urborg + coffers + deserted temple combo arranged when I've put my mind to it. I've also been able to get mikeaus + triskelion, but have never gone off. Some day, someone is probably going to wise up to the abuse potential of deadeye navigator + draining whelk and glen elendra archmage.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
EDH wouldn't be EDH without combos. I've included a number of cards that can be used for combos. Some of them are great on their own, and some of them exist solely as combo components:
Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker - This is the best example of a great on its own card. Zealous Conscripts, Restoration Angel, Necrotic Ooze, and Thornbite Staff are all present too, and all have good uses besides the combo.
Rings of Brighthearth - It's a fun little card with all kinds of micro-combos, and it also combos out with Basalt Monolith for infinite colorless, and Cabal Coffers + Deserted Temple for infinite black
Saffi Eriksdotter - Karmic Guide, Reveillark, considering Loyal Retainers, and a couple of other options for infinite sacs. Also just a great value dude.
Mind Over Matter - Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, and Arcanis the Omnipotent all combo very well with this. Very few legit uses though (it can untap Mereike Ri Berit lol)
Palinchron - Mana doublers abound, plus the standard combos with things like Phantasmal Image, Corpse Dance, Deadeye Navigator, Sneak Attack, etc.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - Very solid on his own, and Triskellion isn't worthless either.
I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting too, as well as various 3+ card combos that can just sort of fall into place. Combos are generally not ridiculously powerful because you need to draft all of their pieces, then draw them with a lower concentration of tutors than normal.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Also, can you rank these 10 cards in what you think is the order of power/necessity for a cube like ours from most powerful/necessary at the top to least at the bottom? Look forward to your opinions.
Karn Liberated
Loxodon Warhammer
Altar of Dementia
Ratchet Bomb
Akroma's Memorial
Grimoire of the Dead
Mirrorworks
Ashnod's Altar
Phyrexian Altar
Cloustone Curio
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor