Thanks for the insight, fellas. Y'all are the best.
Some thoughts after a few weeks of playtesting:
-I'm thrilled with the aggro push in both green and blue. G/U/w aggro and G/R aggro won the last two drafts we played. Thus far we haven't missed the durdly creatures I took out (Genesis and Thornling). At all.
-That said, Skinshifter is reliably mediocre. You were right, wtwlf
-Kind of related: I love the reanimator deck, but I think the strategy would be more justifiable if there were some sort of redundancy with cheating bigger creatures into play. It's entirely possible that I'm letting my inner Johnny dictate the construction of my cube, but gosh darnit, isn't that what cube is for? In any event, I'm considering adding at least one of Eureka, Sneak Attack, or Show and Tell. I can imagine pros and cons to all 3, and would really love to hear what you guys think.
It appears that you like Edric better than Mystic Snake since you're cutting the Snake. Or are you still in the "testing" phase with Edric? Mystic Snake played better than Edric in my 500 Cube.
It's interesting to see how few people push green aggro. The green 1-drops are the green cards in my Cube that are the "least played" in other Cubes. I think it's important to keep green ahead of the curve with them. Hopefully we'll get a good green 2-power 1-drop soon.
Edit: I'm glad to see that it's working out for you so far. I haven't had the archetype come up in recent drafts in my Cube.
@kingneb It's a lot of fun, and cubes imo need as much aggro support as they can reasonably fit.
In any event, a thought experiment: if Tattermunge Maniac were green, would it be a worthy include as green aggro support? Or is the always-attacking drawback too significant to include?
edit: Something just occurred to me. Why is Psionic Blast frowned upon, yet Char considered a 360 staple?
I think I may "cheat" and add the maniac in my red section. I know if they printed the card either in just red or just green that I would definitely run it.
Char benefits red more than blast benefits blue would be my guess. I run both because blast is a unique effect in blue (and is totally worth it).
I've always loved Psionic Blast, but one reason I exclude it is flavor. I don't feel that "burn" should be in blue's ability, though it does pay for the privilege.
Another reason is that it's pretty mana-intensive for 4 damage, and blue cares about the 2 damage much more than red does.
I don't run Psi Blast because it's the only burn card in blue. Blue doesn't need it and blue aggro that needs reach isn't really a thing in my cube. Most blue control decks don't want to damage themselves if they can help it. Blue control usually pairs with black or white, colors that don't lack for removal. Blue paired with red is normally counterburn or some kind of tempo/blink deck. Red in all of those cases can supply the burn. When blue pairs with green, it's a ramp or tempo/blink deck. Arguably that deck could use the burn as creature removal, but usually it just plays better creatures, counters them, or steals them.
In red, Char adds a lot to the burn suite and is one of the few burn spells that hits 4 toughness creatures. It's also great in aggro because you don't care about the damage at all.
And Mystic Snake > Edric. Edric should be the 4th Simic card you run, IMO.
And Mystic Snake > Edric. Edric should be the 4th Simic card you run, IMO.
Thanks for your response! In a vacuum I might agree that Edric isn't as abusable or powerful as the snake. But the difference is a small one, and Edric fits much more into what I want to do with a heavier aggro/tempo focus in each color. So I think it'll stay for now.
That's actually why I'm considering Psionic Blast. It's great for tempo, and a U/G or U/W (and even U/B, if you're targeting the opponent) tempo deck could really utilize the reach it offers. I don't think it would be a good fit in cubes without a push in blue tempo or green aggro, however.
Frantic Search has been underwhelming, even with my cube pushing reanimator harder than any other 360 cube on this forum. The Cryptologist can slot into the reanimator deck, but will also go into most other blue decks. The fact that it can carry a sword is pretty nice, too.
The miracles are out. In their place I'm going to test some of the soulbond creatures that people have been experiencing success with.
I think I run enough removal in black to let poor Shredder go; even if he very occasionally becomes super busted with 'lark or bounce/blink effects, he's more often a 3cc sorcery speed removal. I want to test RC.
Edit 2: The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to take out Ob Nixilis, the Fallen instead. Ob Nix is a disgusting finisher but he exists at a weird spot on the mana curve where he doesn't fit into the commonly played archetypes in black.
I think I'm going to try out Jinxed Choker based on some of the positive press it's been getting round these parts. What should I cut out from my colorless section to give it a whirl?
I'd cut Ring of Gix over Sundering Titan. He's just so sick with Tinker. Either would be trading control for aggro. Masticore would also be on the chopping block for me, but I know I'm in the minority with him. At least you'd be trading aggro for aggro.
I can't find any remotely reasonable cuts. In a powered 360, I think you'll have to live without it.
I think you're right. Wah wah. Although I do have my eye on one of the tappers; I know you were also considering removing one before you bumped up to 450.
I'd cut Stromkirk Noble or Goblin Patrol. I know red needs 1-drops, but the competition is tight at 360. I like the burn spell better. Actually, I'd cut Stonewright before either of those, but I assume you are still testing that card.
I'd cut Stonewright for it also. It's a cool 1-drop and all ...but the Spear is another Incinerate.
And goodness, I do love me some Incinerate. I think I might be leaning more towards cutting Kargan Dragonlord temporarily, to give Stonewright some more testing. I think they both function similarly in that they're red mana sinks, but Stonewright creates more interesting game states and decisions.
In other news, I'm mulling over a couple of changes, and would love to hear people's opinions on them.
In short: I think I have one too many reanimation spells in my cube, and Death is the worst. Adding in Putrid Leech boosts G/x aggro, which is pretty neat in my estimation.
I want to add a little bit more support for blue tempo and Blast is the best card for that; it's nice to give decks a splashable answer to planeswalkers, too.
Deranged Hermit is terrible to cheat into play, so I want to either a) find a more friendly NO/reanimation target, or b) add back in Viridian Shaman. What do you guys think? Maybe Thragtusk? Primeval Titan?
Which is to say, I think the cube would be better served to have alternate means of getting big creatures into play. Do you see any obvious cuts to try them out?
Okay, I've got a little bit of time before I go out for the night, so I wanted to give a little "state of the cube" rundown before I mosey along.
I'm one of the few people still running a 360 list on this forum. For a lot of people, that number suggests a lack of design space, where a cube manager will not be able to push specific archetypes without severely compromising the power level of the cube. That's a view that has always rankled me, and made me perhaps go out of my way to push specific sub-archetypes that could possibly be viewed as less powerful. I thought it'd be a neat time to give a little analysis of the specific cuts and adds to each archetype, as well as a review of where I stand with those decisions. For the purposes of comparison, I'll be using wtwlf's list last updated on May 19, since that's the only data I have at hand.
Like I mentioned several weeks ago, I'm pretty happy with these cuts. I wax and wane on Seal v Shaman--and I'm beginning to think I need to consider both. I miss Treetop Village pretty desperately--it's pretty bonkers in the Nether Void deck, for starters. But the more I cube, the more I become convinced that each color needs some sort of aggro component, so as to construct a balance of power with control/midrange, which so often dominate cube drafts. Which leads us to:
And I suppose you could include Edric in this section as well. I'm beyond thrilled with these cuts--I've explained my distaste for Bribery many times, and I believe JMA is on his way out of the majority of cubes in this forum. Blue tempo comes together pretty frequently here, and I think it might even benefit from another card or two.
These have all been okay changes. With Simic Sky Swallower, having three green behemoths (Hornet Queen and Woodfall Primus being the other two) for Natural Order to go and fetch has made it worth cubing with, even at this level.
These have been the changes I've been least happy with. Although Contagion is a pet card and Yawgmoth's Will is expendable, I miss Tombstalker and Putrid Leech. I think including both Life // Death and Dance of the Dead is one too many reanimation spells. Griselbrand is only really viable in the reanimator deck, and Raven's Crime has been underwhelming, since it's far too narrow to function well outside of reanimator--or, in rare occasions, with Life from the Loam. The experience thus far is that reanimator-specific targets (Griselbrand or Elesh Norn, say) are so narrow that they need cross-color redundancy to work. Including big Tinker targets is fine because you can also reanimate them; Natural Order targets can be ramped into. Griselbrand is either bonkers, or it's in the sideboard. The only option that I see is to include cards like Sneak Attack, Eureka, and Show and Tell, or pull the reins in on reanimator altogether. Something to think about, for sure.
With that said, 2 changes:
Life // Death -> Putrid Leech
Raven's Crime -> Smallpox
Smallpox functions as discard, but it's also great in other archetypes, whereas Raven's Crime isn't. Gonna give it a shot and see how it does.
There will almost certainly be a big shift after M13. I'm only running 26 different cards from wtwlf's list, so it's not like he and I have wildly divergent opinions on many things, but I think it's nice to know that there's not rigid consensus.
Well, yeah, that was what I was saying :P. You've established what you think belongs in a 360 list, and to an absurd extent I agree with the majority of your assessment. It's just that I've made some very small changes to push archetypes that I want to include in my own cube.
But because I've deviated from your list, you're necessarily going to disagree with whatever changes I make. None of this makes you wrong; in fact I think you're right--with the exception of 6 cards (Squee/Contagion/Bribery/Triskelion/Mind Stone/Coalition Relic), I think all of the cards I've cut should go back in, assuming I wanted a more neutral cube experience, and not push archetypes I (and my players) want to play with. But like you said, it's not like I'm adding crazy chaff like Skyshroud Ridgeback or Wake Thrasher or something. These are cards that by your own admission belong in a 450 list at least (I think the only 2 cards I run that you don't are Seal of Primordium and Nether Void, right?); I just like what they represent enough to bump them up a level.
Some thoughts after a few weeks of playtesting:
-I'm thrilled with the aggro push in both green and blue. G/U/w aggro and G/R aggro won the last two drafts we played. Thus far we haven't missed the durdly creatures I took out (Genesis and Thornling). At all.
-That said, Skinshifter is reliably mediocre. You were right, wtwlf
-Nether Void has been an absolute house. Yowza.
-Natural Order has been doing juuuust short of fine with two primary targets, so I'm going to re-add SSS.
Out -> In
Mystic Snake -> Simic Sky Swallower
Skinshifter -> River Boa
-Kind of related: I love the reanimator deck, but I think the strategy would be more justifiable if there were some sort of redundancy with cheating bigger creatures into play. It's entirely possible that I'm letting my inner Johnny dictate the construction of my cube, but gosh darnit, isn't that what cube is for? In any event, I'm considering adding at least one of Eureka, Sneak Attack, or Show and Tell. I can imagine pros and cons to all 3, and would really love to hear what you guys think.
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It's interesting to see how few people push green aggro. The green 1-drops are the green cards in my Cube that are the "least played" in other Cubes. I think it's important to keep green ahead of the curve with them. Hopefully we'll get a good green 2-power 1-drop soon.
Edit: I'm glad to see that it's working out for you so far. I haven't had the archetype come up in recent drafts in my Cube.
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In any event, a thought experiment: if Tattermunge Maniac were green, would it be a worthy include as green aggro support? Or is the always-attacking drawback too significant to include?
edit: Something just occurred to me. Why is Psionic Blast frowned upon, yet Char considered a 360 staple?
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Char benefits red more than blast benefits blue would be my guess. I run both because blast is a unique effect in blue (and is totally worth it).
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Another reason is that it's pretty mana-intensive for 4 damage, and blue cares about the 2 damage much more than red does.
In red, Char adds a lot to the burn suite and is one of the few burn spells that hits 4 toughness creatures. It's also great in aggro because you don't care about the damage at all.
And Mystic Snake > Edric. Edric should be the 4th Simic card you run, IMO.
Cheers,
rant
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Thanks for your response! In a vacuum I might agree that Edric isn't as abusable or powerful as the snake. But the difference is a small one, and Edric fits much more into what I want to do with a heavier aggro/tempo focus in each color. So I think it'll stay for now.
That's actually why I'm considering Psionic Blast. It's great for tempo, and a U/G or U/W (and even U/B, if you're targeting the opponent) tempo deck could really utilize the reach it offers. I don't think it would be a good fit in cubes without a push in blue tempo or green aggro, however.
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Out -> In
Frantic Search -> Enclave Cryptologist
Bonfire of the Damned -> Stonewright
Entreat the Angels -> Nearheath Pilgrim
Frantic Search has been underwhelming, even with my cube pushing reanimator harder than any other 360 cube on this forum. The Cryptologist can slot into the reanimator deck, but will also go into most other blue decks. The fact that it can carry a sword is pretty nice, too.
The miracles are out. In their place I'm going to test some of the soulbond creatures that people have been experiencing success with.
Edit: Bone Shredder -> Raven's Crime
I think I run enough removal in black to let poor Shredder go; even if he very occasionally becomes super busted with 'lark or bounce/blink effects, he's more often a 3cc sorcery speed removal. I want to test RC.
Edit 2: The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to take out Ob Nixilis, the Fallen instead. Ob Nix is a disgusting finisher but he exists at a weird spot on the mana curve where he doesn't fit into the commonly played archetypes in black.
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen -> Bone Shredder
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I'd cut Ring of Gix over Sundering Titan. He's just so sick with Tinker. Either would be trading control for aggro. Masticore would also be on the chopping block for me, but I know I'm in the minority with him. At least you'd be trading aggro for aggro.
I think you're right. Wah wah. Although I do have my eye on one of the tappers; I know you were also considering removing one before you bumped up to 450.
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Ajani Goldmane -> Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Basically for curve issues. Ajani is the weakest 4cc spell I run.
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Cheers,
rant
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And goodness, I do love me some Incinerate. I think I might be leaning more towards cutting Kargan Dragonlord temporarily, to give Stonewright some more testing. I think they both function similarly in that they're red mana sinks, but Stonewright creates more interesting game states and decisions.
In other news, I'm mulling over a couple of changes, and would love to hear people's opinions on them.
Life // Death -> Putrid Leech
Enclave Cryptologist -> Psionic Blast
Deranged Hermit -> ???
In short: I think I have one too many reanimation spells in my cube, and Death is the worst. Adding in Putrid Leech boosts G/x aggro, which is pretty neat in my estimation.
I want to add a little bit more support for blue tempo and Blast is the best card for that; it's nice to give decks a splashable answer to planeswalkers, too.
Deranged Hermit is terrible to cheat into play, so I want to either a) find a more friendly NO/reanimation target, or b) add back in Viridian Shaman. What do you guys think? Maybe Thragtusk? Primeval Titan?
Some other changes I'm considering:
??? -> Sneak Attack
??? -> Show and Tell
Which is to say, I think the cube would be better served to have alternate means of getting big creatures into play. Do you see any obvious cuts to try them out?
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I also like the Cryptologist more than the Blast.
And I wouldn't cut Ajani Goldmane either.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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I'm one of the few people still running a 360 list on this forum. For a lot of people, that number suggests a lack of design space, where a cube manager will not be able to push specific archetypes without severely compromising the power level of the cube. That's a view that has always rankled me, and made me perhaps go out of my way to push specific sub-archetypes that could possibly be viewed as less powerful. I thought it'd be a neat time to give a little analysis of the specific cuts and adds to each archetype, as well as a review of where I stand with those decisions. For the purposes of comparison, I'll be using wtwlf's list last updated on May 19, since that's the only data I have at hand.
Green Aggro
Mystic Snake -> Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Treetop Village -> Pouncing Jaguar
Viridian Shaman -> Seal of Primordium
Genesis -> Twinblade Slasher
Like I mentioned several weeks ago, I'm pretty happy with these cuts. I wax and wane on Seal v Shaman--and I'm beginning to think I need to consider both. I miss Treetop Village pretty desperately--it's pretty bonkers in the Nether Void deck, for starters. But the more I cube, the more I become convinced that each color needs some sort of aggro component, so as to construct a balance of power with control/midrange, which so often dominate cube drafts. Which leads us to:
Blue Aggro
Jace, Memory Adept -> Aether Adept
Bribery -> Daze
And I suppose you could include Edric in this section as well. I'm beyond thrilled with these cuts--I've explained my distaste for Bribery many times, and I believe JMA is on his way out of the majority of cubes in this forum. Blue tempo comes together pretty frequently here, and I think it might even benefit from another card or two.
Colorless Aggro
Coalition Relic -> Ankh of Mishra
Mind Stone -> Black Vise
Nothing to see here, either. While these cuts weaken the Wildfire deck, it's an easy sacrifice to make.
Natural Order Package
Troll Ascetic -> Arbor Elf
Thornling -> Hornet Queen
Wickerbough Elder -> Natural Order
These have all been okay changes. With Simic Sky Swallower, having three green behemoths (Hornet Queen and Woodfall Primus being the other two) for Natural Order to go and fetch has made it worth cubing with, even at this level.
Reanimator
Putrid Leech -> Life // Death
Contagion -> Dance of the Dead
Yawgmoth's Will -> Griselbrand
Tombstalker -> Raven's Crime
These have been the changes I've been least happy with. Although Contagion is a pet card and Yawgmoth's Will is expendable, I miss Tombstalker and Putrid Leech. I think including both Life // Death and Dance of the Dead is one too many reanimation spells. Griselbrand is only really viable in the reanimator deck, and Raven's Crime has been underwhelming, since it's far too narrow to function well outside of reanimator--or, in rare occasions, with Life from the Loam. The experience thus far is that reanimator-specific targets (Griselbrand or Elesh Norn, say) are so narrow that they need cross-color redundancy to work. Including big Tinker targets is fine because you can also reanimate them; Natural Order targets can be ramped into. Griselbrand is either bonkers, or it's in the sideboard. The only option that I see is to include cards like Sneak Attack, Eureka, and Show and Tell, or pull the reins in on reanimator altogether. Something to think about, for sure.
With that said, 2 changes:
Life // Death -> Putrid Leech
Raven's Crime -> Smallpox
Smallpox functions as discard, but it's also great in other archetypes, whereas Raven's Crime isn't. Gonna give it a shot and see how it does.
There will almost certainly be a big shift after M13. I'm only running 26 different cards from wtwlf's list, so it's not like he and I have wildly divergent opinions on many things, but I think it's nice to know that there's not rigid consensus.
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But because I've deviated from your list, you're necessarily going to disagree with whatever changes I make. None of this makes you wrong; in fact I think you're right--with the exception of 6 cards (Squee/Contagion/Bribery/Triskelion/Mind Stone/Coalition Relic), I think all of the cards I've cut should go back in, assuming I wanted a more neutral cube experience, and not push archetypes I (and my players) want to play with. But like you said, it's not like I'm adding crazy chaff like Skyshroud Ridgeback or Wake Thrasher or something. These are cards that by your own admission belong in a 450 list at least (I think the only 2 cards I run that you don't are Seal of Primordium and Nether Void, right?); I just like what they represent enough to bump them up a level.
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