Cube Size: 400 Cards
Card Breakdown: 54 Each Color, 60 Colorless, 70 Guild
Average Draft: 2-4 players, 1-2 times/week
Powered?: Yes
Portal?: Considering it
"Un-" Cards: Goodness no
Any "Banned" Cards: Not opposed to it, but never needed to
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Proxies?: Only if you count Collector's Edition cards as proxies, which you shoudn’t.
Functional Reprints?: Yes
I don't have any experience with cubes containing moxen, so I'm curious: how useful is green's mana acceleration when fast mana artifacts are available? Also, how useful has Dark Ritual been in this environment?
Also, I just recently added Life/Death to my cube, but we've only had one draft since then and it hasn't seen play. Has it performed well in both BG and mono-coloured decks?
I don't have any experience with cubes containing moxen, so I'm curious: how useful is green's mana acceleration when fast mana artifacts are available? Also, how useful has Dark Ritual been in this environment?
Also, I just recently added Life/Death to my cube, but we've only had one draft since then and it hasn't seen play. Has it performed well in both BG and mono-coloured decks?
Dark Ritual has been consistently amazing. Fueling a big early Mind Twist, forcing out Ob Nixilis, the Fallen or Grave Titan two turns earlier than normal. It's card disadvantage, sure, but the upside is so tremendous that I can't really imagine not running it at any level. It's often not what you want to see as a top deck late game, but neither is Sol Ring.
Green's mana dorks are still useful for the color, even in an environment with moxen. Green's competitive advantage is the ability to escalate mana far more quickly than other colors, and I find that I'm almost never disappointed to play a mana elf on turns 1-3. They also allow a turn 3 Natural Order fairly consistently, which is pretty great for whoever casts it. I like them so much, and feel they're so important to green's identity, that I'm considering adding Avacyn's Pilgrim just for some extra redundancy.
As far as Life // Death, I think it borders on being a pet card. I don't doubt that Putrefy is a better card, objectively. But it's nice to have another reanimator spell (you'll notice I have a couple more enablers for that strategy than the average 360 cube), and the Life half has some cute synergies (Tamiyo's -2, Garruk 1.0's -4) that it's worth keeping around.
Here is some data about the unusual choices in your list:
Awesome, thanks so much for that. Some of the unusual cards listed are AVR cards, which I'm sure will become more accepted over time, but it's helpful to know what I'm missing relative to the hive mind. A lot fewer than I was expecting, frankly.
I think you're one of the few people running Devastation Tide. I know you said it has pulled its weight, but how is it seeing play? Do you typically hardcast it? Do you find that it is generally favorable to cast it on the miracle turn?
I think you're one of the few people running Devastation Tide. I know you said it has pulled its weight, but how is it seeing play? Do you typically hardcast it? Do you find that it is generally favorable to cast it on the miracle turn?
With respect to the frequency of casting the card on the miracle turn, I've found that for the most part the cards are good enough to play even when being hardcast. That said, I've jammed the cube with all of the playable library manipulation spells I could, including one possibly suboptimal card in Condescend to ensure miracles go off more frequently. For the most part, they do.
As far as the miracle on Devastation Tide specifically, because it's reasonably easy to hard cast, it requires the most thought as to whether or not you want to activate the miracle. I wish I could give a more concrete answer to your question, but it's really a very strong, "Well, it depends."
Obviously it sees play primarily in blue control decks, as you can hard cast it if you wish against any deck that's pulled ahead of you to save your skin. Of course the blue control deck will most likely have a fair amount of library manipulation, so as to more or less guarantee the miracle activation when you need it. It's especially disgusting because you can very easily cast it during the opponent's end step with a timely Sensei's Divining Top activation or Brainstorm, then jump way ahead on the board during your own turn.
We've found that a worse Upheaval is still pretty darned good.
I don't doubt that Devastation Tide has its windows of value. But it's not Upheaval in any way. Upheaval is good because it bounces lands. Period. They can't rebuild, and you already did. Tide doesn't do this key component, and it just can't serve in the same function. Additionally, what makes these kinds of symmetrical effects worth using is the ability to make them asymmetrical. And with Upheaval/Jokulhaups kinds of cards, it's all about timing out the spell and/or floating mana before hand and recasting stuff on an open board. You can't do this with the Tide either, because it A) doesn't disrupt the mana bases and B) is Miracled in a phase where you can't cast other permanents.
I think it's more akin to Evacuation, which I actually prefer for several reasons. First, the effect is far more powerful at instant speed. Second, it doesn't hit all of my noncreature permanents... so I can build up a base of artifacts, enchamtments, 'walkers, etc and then nuke my opponent's creature base at the end of their turn. Without the ability to do that, the Tide is even harder to make asymmetrical.
So it's not a card you can truly abuse, it's just the reset button half of better spells that can otherwise be broken.
I don't doubt that Devastation Tide has its windows of value. But it's not Upheaval in any way. Upheaval is good because it bounces lands. Period.
Totally agree. The cards serve different functions, even if they look superficially similar. The reason I compared the two of them so off-handedly was because that was the way most of the MtG punditry described Tide when it was first spoiled. My mistake; thanks for calling me on it.
I think it's more akin to Evacuation, which I actually prefer for several reasons. First, the effect is far more powerful at instant speed.
Because of its color, Tide can be played at instant speed fairly consistently, and at 40% of the cost. This happens reasonably frequently, and I think it's something you've been neglecting to consider when evaluating the miracle mechanic.
Second, it doesn't hit all of my noncreature permanents... so I can build up a base of artifacts, enchamtments, 'walkers, etc and then nuke my opponent's creature base at the end of their turn. Without the ability to do that, the Tide is even harder to make asymmetrical. So it's not a card you can truly abuse, it's just the reset button half of better spells that can otherwise be broken.
I think this is a bit of a strawman. You're right, you can't create a dedicated Tide.dec the same way you can build, say, a Wildfire.dec. But there are plenty of times when I would gladly bounce my own walkers/enchantments/artifacts (especially the moxen) to get my opponents' junk off the board, too. In other words, I think the reset button half of better spells is still cube-worthy, particularly for such a cheap cost in a color that is often on its back foot against a strong aggro deck.
In any event, I don't think it's a slam-dunk 360 staple, but I'm almost never sorry to draw into it or even have it in my hand. As I said in the opening post, I want to have a miracle card in each color to create a little bit of a mystery as to what I'm drawing into, and as far as I can tell it's the best blue miracle card they printed. Maybe in a couple of weeks I'll see the light and switch to Vanishment or something, or just drop the blue and green miracles altogether. Consider it under the microscope.
Okay folks, after playing the cube pretty extensively this weekend, I'm considering quite a few changes, and I would really appreciate your feedback on them. I'm trying to re-orient the cube to be focused a little bit less on midrange and control.
First thing you'll notice is that the morph creatures and mediocre miracles are out. Both Devastation Tide and Revenge of the Hunted could be incredible, but they very seldom fit snugly in decks that used them. The morph creatures are going out not because they weren't good (they are), but more for aesthetic reasons--I think the mechanic is a little too goofy, and often difficult for new players to deal with. They'll probably be back, but for now they remain in the on-deck binder.
It's kind of en vogue to remove Capsize, and I can see why. Blue doesn't need another 6 CMC finisher, and Roil fits into the Blue tempo subtheme (while remaining great in the more traditional blue decks) I would like to encourage a little bit more. The same logic applies to Psi Blast and Daze, both extremely versatile blue cards.
Standstill has long been one of my favorite cards. It's great in U/x tempo, or after dropping an Upheaval. This will probably end up being a pet card that I'll remove after a few weeks, but I'm curious about the experiences others have had with it.
Another casualty of the de-morphing. Originally I was going to add Kor Sanctifiers, but I'm not sure white needs any more enchantment/artifact removal. I consider Seal of Cleansing to be superior to the Sanctifiers, as it also goes in pretty much every white deck, whereas Sanctifiers isn't really at home in white aggro. Knight is effective both in and against aggro, and allows control the lifegain that Angel provided previously.
Troll Ascetic is too good not to run, and silly me for not figuring that out earlier. Skinshifter is a decent-ish aggro card that can fit into a more midrange green deck in a pinch. Pouncing Jaguar is the best non-Rootwalla green 1-drop that I can run, since I don't really want to use a Portal card like Jungle Lion. Garruk 3.0 is clunky, and none of us really like playing with him.
Firestorm allows red to have another effective discard outlet, a necessity in my cube, since I push reanimator a little bit harder than other 360 lists. It can also be used to ravage the aggro player's board, even if it is a heavy investment.
I'm not sure a 360 cube needs 3 X spells, and Devil's Play is the worst of the 3 I run currently. Chandra has consistently underwhelmed. Am I missing something with her?
Nether Void is a killer aggro topper. Black has no shortage of targeted removal, and needed another discard outlet. Graverobber we've found to be too fragile/cute to actually go off even more than half the time (and more or less impossible if you drop it any turn after 5 or so). Exhume is pretty much never dead, even if the drawback is worse than the creature.
With the aggro push in both blue and green, Edric seems like an obvious include. I think the predator is probably the 3rd or 4th best simic card, but it's the worst fit in my cube, so out it goes.
I think all of those morphs are good enough on their own to be played at 360, and I wouldn't think of cutting them.
Additionally, the cuts of Capsize, Preordain, Garruk Relentless, Chandra Nalaar, Nezumi Graverobber and Trygon Predator I'd probably reverse or find other cuts. So overall, I'm not really a fan of the update at all, other than cutting Devastation Tide and Revenge of the Hunted.
I think all of those swaps are good or fine, except the biggest red flag to me is the Garruk cut. By "clunky" do you mean the transform mechanic, or the way it plays out in the cube? There's basically no card that makes me want to play green more than Garruk 3.The card I'd probably miss second-most is Doom Blade, but that's on a very per-group basis.
There's basically no card that makes me want to play green more than Garruk 3.
I know that's the overarching feeling on these boards. Can you explain it a little bit more to me? We've always seen as it as extremely underwhelming. It's green removal, sure, but you can't use it without moxen until turn 3, and you're only going to be able to get a 1 or 2 toughness creature out of the deal if you want to keep him around. Is the flipside that exciting? I don't think a 1/1 deathtouch is great shakes. The tutor is awesome, admittedly, but the ultimate is milquetoast. Basically it seems like it's too much effort to make it flip, and not enough reward. It just screams "durdle" to me. I respect the hell out of you and wtwlf both to know that I'm probably missing something here, but I'm not seeing it.
Additionally, the cuts of Capsize, Preordain, Garruk Relentless, Chandra Nalaar, Nezumi Graverobber and Trygon Predator I'd probably reverse or find other cuts. So overall, I'm not really a fan of the update at all, other than cutting Devastation Tide and Revenge of the Hunted.
Well gee, thanks for the constructive criticism. In any event, I find some of your objections confusing, as you removed Capsize from your 360 list before your expansion to 450, and in the Edric SCD you basically said that the Simic section was a pick'em between the big 4. You also had Preordain out of your 360 list for a very long time, deciding (rightly, imo) that it wasn't as good as Ponder.
Why do you think Graverobber is better than Exhume? Because it can carry equipment? The drawback of Exhume is too great?
Why do you think Graverobber is better than Exhume? Because it can carry equipment? The drawback of Exhume is too great?
Because it's a nice anti-graveyard card that doubles as reanimation support that's on a reasonably costed creature that can be played in pretty much every black archetype.
Unless you're "all in" with black reanimation support and dedicated reanimator is a big part of black's identity, Exhume isn't close to as good as the creature.
In any event, I find some of your objections confusing, as you removed Capsize from your 360 list before your expansion to 450, and in the Edric SCD you basically said that the Simic section was a pick'em between the big 4. You also had Preordain out of your 360 list for a very long time, deciding (rightly, imo) that it wasn't as good as Ponder.
I didn't play Capsize in the end, but I'd play it over any of the blue cards you're adding in. Same goes for Preordain.
Trygon Predator wouldn't be my exclusion of choice from 360 in the Simic section.
I think the Wolf-making ability is not to be overlooked. Let me try to give a few reasons why G3 is good.
First, it's one of the few cards cards in green which can provide card or creature advantage no matter what the board state is - i.e. regardless of what is in your graveyard or on your opponent's board. The other cards which do so are Wall of Blossoms, the other two Garruks, Acidic Slime, Vorapede. If I play any of those cards I KNOW the opponent will almost certainly have to expend more resources than I did to get rid of it. It's not a fantastic test, but it's indicative. Garruk 3 has the best casting cost out of all of these besides the Wall, easily, costing only a single green mana and 3 colorless. Also note that its Wolf-Making ability is better than Garruk 1's - it keeps G3 at 3 counters after the first turn vs. G1's 2 counters, and G3 can make an infinite number of wolves without pausing, unlike G1.
Another point I want to make is that I almost never expect to keep Garruk 3 alive. 70% of the time, I will use the ability to kill a guy. Now my opponent has to find a way to kill it while they are down a creature. If they can't kill it the turn it flips, then they will almost certainly have to use one of their removal spells in order to get through to kill it. But the proof of Garruk's worth is not his ability to stay alive - it's his ability to demand that your opponent spend excessive resources in order to get rid of him. It's obviously useful against aggro in this way, but it might be even better against control. The splashable cost allows you to get him in earlier than the other four-drops. Garruk 3 is the easiest to cast out of every single four drop you run! Once he's on the board, what is control going to do to get rid of him? He can snap virtually all of their fliers (when untransformed of course). Are they going to Upheaval?
Finally, it is the only creature removal spell in green worth running at 360. True, color niche isn't always good enough. But the nice thing about Garruk of course is that he is removal which can double as a creature generator when you don't need removal. How much is that sort of flexibility worth to you? It means that you can play him out on curve virtually any time you want unless the board is highly highly unfavorable to you, but since you're often ramping up in green the board state is almost always going to be favorable to you to drop him in the early game.
Sure, BR reanimator likes using Firestorm, but "regular" red decks can't get too much value out of the card. I would rather use it's black equivalent Sickening Dreams, since that way red doesn't lose a card for an effect that it doesn't want.
My thinking on Firestorm was that it provides red with another needed discard outlet (beyond Faithless Looting and Wheel of Fortune), as well as functioning reasonably in a non-reanimator deck.
Chandra Nalaar can kill basically any creature, comes with very high toughness and is not hard to ultimate. I don't see why it should get removed at all.
Yeah, you're probably right. My thinking was that the +2 doesn't really affect the board state as much as it should, and the -X often just leads to poor Chandra making a hasty exit to the graveyard, which basically makes it a 5cc Terminate. And with Bonfire of the Damned, the ultimate isn't as unique and exciting as it once was. But the versatility is really important, so it'll stay in.
The consensus seems to be that the loner cards are bad, Soulbond is pretty strong + there is a good token support as well. Still everybody seems to be convinced about the power of the edict effects. I would rather cut Diabolic Edict than Doom Blade.
Re: Exhume This doesn't make too much sense to me.
What I was trying to say is that in the mid-late game, when Nezumi doesn't really stand a chance of flipping due to filled graveyards, Exhume will almost always net you a better creature than a 2/1 for 2. Of course, it will also give your opponent something good as well. In any event, wtwlf convinced me that Nezumi is a better fit for the cube, as it both enables and combats regeneration shenanigans.
How does red profit from having something that it can discard cards to?
When you put it that way, I guess it's pretty myopic to assume that every non-white color needs a good discard outlet. I think you just saved me 10 bucks. Thanks
Chandra Nalaar can kill up to 3 small creatures or one dragon / angel which are cards that red has a very hard time getting off the table and still survives to make your opponent spend resources to kill her or stays in play as a pinger.
Once your opponent gets a 4+ mana creature in the yard, Exhume becomes a lot less valuable. Sure your guy might be bigger, but your opponent was able to impact the board with other creatures earlier instead of trying to find all the pieces and get the fatty into your graveyard.
Yeah, Nezumi and Chandra both remain, and Exhume is on the outside looking in.
With Hornet Queen in your green section, SSS seems like a replaceable card, since it is great against spot removal, can kill anything in combat, can't be blocked effectively and also gives you 6 power of flying creatures for 7.
I think I'm one of the few people on this board that consider Natural Order cubable, or at least powerful and fun enough to warrant inclusion as long as you have at least 3 principal targets for it. If I removed SSS, that leaves only two: Hornet Queen and Woodfall Primus. We all feel the effect is powerful enough to justify removing two of the fringe-y green cards to include it and Hornet Queen, but I'm not sure it's justifiable without SSS. Do you think it would be? Keep in mind that removing Natural Order, for now, is not an option for our playgroup.
In any event, if I don't find a way to squeeze in Edric, I may just take out Green aggro altogether. I'm only running 6 cards in the archetype:
I was hoping the inclusion of Edric, along with Pouncing Jaguar and Skinshifter, would help prop up the archetype, which struggles even as a secondary option in any aggro deck. Of course, Edric would also require an uptick in Blue tempo cards (which I described in my proposed update), and THAT would justify my keeping Geist of Saint Traft in the cube. Geist is a card that almost never sees play simply because Blue is so control-oriented.
If you really want to help tempo, I think Kira & Coralhelm Commander are far more important than Psi Blast, Daze, or probably even Into the Roil. Also, I'm no expert on green aggro, but I'd think you'd need far more green 1-drops than that to make it viable. Commit or go home I think is the board consensus on the green aggro experience. Wolfbitten Captive, Jungle Lion, Twinblade Slasher, maybe Pouncing Jaguar are probably needed to make it work.
Genesis is the creature I'm least excited to ramp into; it's versatile and crushes in the control/midrange mirror, but I think it's the narrowest of the green 5-drops I run. I don't think I'll miss it.
River Boa hasn't overwhelmed or underwhelmed in its stay, it's just...whelmed. Like Skinshifter, it can go in green aggro or play a defensive position. But I want to try out Skinshifter and see if its 4 power plays better in aggro decks.
Something had to make room for Edric, and SSS is the least interesting of the 4 Simic cards. If I find that Natural Order needs another target to make it run smoother, I probably won't add this back in, but instead find a way for Pelakka Wurm.
Lodestone Golem was the worst of the aggro 4-drops. Scroll Rack isn't as good when you're not running the full miracle set. Besides, multicolor control decks need more checks and balances. Consider Ankh the check and Vise the balance.
Slayers' Stronghold made me, like wtwlf, realize how great Charge is. I think it might even be a 360 staple. I don't need 3 Red XCC spells, and Earthquake is the most fungible. Goblin Patrol is boring, but gives red another 2-power 1-drop.
These are changes I'm going to test for a few weeks. I want another free counterspell, Cryptic Command does double duty, and two extra value creatures are great for any blue deck.
Thanks, cube forum, for all your insight. You're the best!
Not a fan of cutting Genesis. I think it's one of green's best cards. It's a sweet card advantage engine that comes attached to a nice creature. I like Nantuko Vigilante quite a bit. It's nice to have extra answers to artifacts and enchantments, and you never need more than 3 mana or a single green mana with that guy. And I like River Boa more than the Skinshifter. I don't have to put mana into the Boa to have it be a reasonable attacker, and it has evasion in half the matchups. Regeneration is pretty sweet too. I'd keep Genesis and the Boa, and go without the Slasher or Skinshifter.
If you have to bring in Edric at 360, the SSS is an okay cut. But I personally prefer it, especially if you're running Natural Order.
I could see cutting Scroll Rack at 360, so the colorless changes look fine. I didn't run any of those 4 cards in my 360 list though.
I love Bane of the Living. 4-power beaters and sweepers built into the same card are totally boss.
Blistering Firecat is such a beating. 7 damage out of nowhere is completely awesome. He's such a threat, and a major contributor in red aggro decks; he brings you into reach range better than almost any other red card in my list. And Earthquake is a wonderful spell. Sweepers that double as reach are pretty epic, and there's decks that can make it totally asymmetrical.
I think Exalted Angel is still one of the best white creatures in the cube. I wouldn't cut it for another 2-drop.
Blue looks okay, I like Willbender more than Aether Adept though; the 'bender has been the clutch card in so many situations, almost always 3-for-1 card advantage. Pretty good for never even needing to reach 4 mana, and only requiring a single blue.
Neither am I, frankly, but like you and everyone else have said, if you want green aggro to be viable, you need to really push it. Here are the 4+ CC creatures that I run:
I'm more excited to ramp into each one of those creatures than I am to ramp into Genesis. I understand that Genesis is objectively a better card than Pouncing Jaguar, but it's the most cuttable of the others, except maaaaaaaybe Phantom Centaur.
Obviously your cube list is what I modeled mine on, and the more I think about it the more I think you're on target w/r/t the morphs. I think I'm going to do this:
Meadowgrain and Edict are easy cuts. Bribery isn't, but it's the weakest of blue's creature-theft spells, and I don't think the color needs to devote 10% of its space to that effect. Because of its echo costs, Vandals doesn't live to see as many turns as a more versatile artifact-removal creature like Hearth Kami. Vigilante can attack enchantments, Shaman can't, and Shaman is getting the axe because Uktabi Orangutan always makes me laugh when I look at it. Because I run Seal of Primordium, I'm less worried about losing an artifact removal card in the color than I otherwise would be (I'm running only 1 fewer than you were in your 360 list).
I like River Boa more than the Skinshifter. I don't have to put mana into the Boa to have it be a reasonable attacker, and it has evasion in half the matchups. Regeneration is pretty sweet too. I'd keep Genesis and the Boa, and go without the Slasher or Skinshifter.
In a vaccum I like Boa more than Skinshifter, too (especially because I loved to play 10-land stompy way back when). But I think that Skinshifter will prove to be slightly better in green aggro, as well as being an excellent blocker for a minimal investment in midrange/control. In any event I'm going to keep a very close eye on this.
If you have to bring in Edric at 360, the SSS is an okay cut. But I personally prefer it, especially if you're running Natural Order.
I think if I need to add another target for Natural Order, I'll end up squeezing in Pelakka Wurm, since at least you can hard cast it in a Rock or GW deck.
Phantom Centaur is probably the most cuttable creature from that list. He's really good at what he does, but in the end he's kinda just a beater.
I love the 5 "core" morph creatures, and I'll probably continue to run them forever unless we get better ones in a set that revisits the mechanic. I'm not a fan of most of the cuts you're leaning towards to bring them back in, but I like those more than excluding the morph creatures altogether.
If you're blocking, you can regenerate your Boa against non-trample creatures, and still kill off their attackers. If you're attacking, you don't have to sink mana into it to at least swing for two. That's clutch. Imagine Nantuko Shade as a 1/1. The reason it's good is because even if you only "bluff" the pump, he's still a 2-drop that bashes for two. And the Boa's straight unblockable in 40%+ of your games. And it can regenerate against removal that allows it (there's a lot more now than there used to be). I played the Skinshifter long enough to learn he's no river boa.
Ya, you can always "add in" the Wurm to green if you feel short on targets, but if the Genesis cut showed you anything, it's that green is a hell of a lot tighter than it looks. Simic can live without Edric for the sake of supporting Natural Order and Ramp with another fatty. Powerful narrow cards are right at home in the multicolor section. And he's got evasion, trample and shroud.
I rank the X sweepers higher than the Blaze variants. I'd say: Rolling Earthquake > Earthquake > Bonfire/Devil's Play (Bonfire is still in test mode for me; I'm not convinced it's a staple yet, but if it proves good in practice, I'll keep it as my 3rd X spell and leave the Play out).
I think most of your changes are pretty good. I agree with wtwlf about red sweepers being better than blaze, but I disagree strongly about the necessity of morphs. I'm pretty close to cutting them all from my cube. Viridian Shaman especially is far far better than the Vigilante in my opinion, unless you're biased against functional reprints. The cut I feel strongest about is Condescend. I think it's better than Arcane Denial, Miscalculation, Memory Lapse, and Remand.
If the Genesis cut showed you anything, it's that green is a hell of a lot tighter than it looks.
Don't I know it. I think green might actually be the tightest section in the cube. I would never have guessed that when I first started constructing it.
And with that, here are the final (for now) changes, reflected in the cube contents list. Thanks to everybody.
So I've been putzing around gatherer lately. Why don't people run Vendetta or Ashes to Ashes? The downside can be brutal, but if you're pushing black aggro they seem pretty solid. Am I crazy for considering them?
Vendetta would be good in a color without access to good removal. Black has no such problem. And with Dismember out now, this card is dead to me.
Ashes to Ashes can be a blowout. Or it can also be the reason you lose. There were too many times that I got run-over by not having two targets that we cut it long ago. I almost prefer Slaughter at this point in time because I can use it to kill just 1 guy if I need to, and the life drawback is optional. But black's removal suite is too good for that spell either.
Cube Size: 400 Cards
Card Breakdown: 54 Each Color, 60 Colorless, 70 Guild
Average Draft: 2-4 players, 1-2 times/week
Powered?: Yes
Portal?: Considering it
"Un-" Cards: Goodness no
Any "Banned" Cards: Not opposed to it, but never needed to
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Proxies?: Only if you count Collector's Edition cards as proxies, which you shoudn’t.
Functional Reprints?: Yes
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Mother of Runes
1 Savannah Lions
1 Soldier of the Pantheon
1 Steppe Lynx
1 Student of Warfare
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Imposing Sovereign
1 Lone Missionary
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Soltari Monk
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Trooper
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Wall of Omens
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mirror Entity
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Soltari Champion
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Restoration Angel
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Sun Titan
1 Harm's Way
1 Land Tax
1 Mana Tithe
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Council's Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Spectral Procession
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Armageddon
1 Day of Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Moat
1 Parallax Wave
1 Ravages of War
1 Wrath of God
1 Catastrophe
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Man-o'-War
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Serendib Efreet
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Mulldrifter
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Force Spike
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Spell Pierce
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Drain
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Miscalculation
1 Remand
1 Time Walk
1 Forbid
1 Jace Beleren
1 Psionic Blast
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Control Magic
1 Cryptic Command
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Opposition
1 Time Spiral
1 Upheaval
1 Condescend
1 Dig Through Time
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Carnophage
1 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Gnarled Scarhide
1 Gravecrawler
1 Sarcomancy
1 Tormented Hero
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Dark Confidant
1 Dauthi Horror
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Pack Rat
1 Flesh Carver
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Master of the Feast
1 Ophiomancer
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Skinrender
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Snuff Out
1 Dark Ritual
1 Dismember
1 Duress
1 Entomb
1 Imperial Seal
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Bitterblossom
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Exhume
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sinkhole
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Necromancy
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Damnation
1 Nether Void
1 Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
1 Mind Twist
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Goblin Guide
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Greater Gargadon
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Jackal Pup
1 Stromkirk Noble
1 Keldon Marauders
1 Lightning Mauler
1 Plated Geopede
1 Stormblood Berserker
1 War-Name Aspirant
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Fire Imp
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Manic Vandal
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Hellrider
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Inferno Titan
1 Chain Lightning
1 Faithless Looting
1 Firebolt
1 Firestorm
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Reckless Charge
1 Arc Trail
1 Blood Lust
1 Incinerate
1 Lightning Strike
1 Magma Jet
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Chaos Warp
1 Char
1 Staggershock
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Sneak Attack
1 Burning of Xinye
1 Wildfire
1 Earthquake
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Experiment One
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Jungle Lion
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Wild Nacatl
1 Wolfbitten Captive
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Mongrel
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Vengevine
1 Acidic Slime
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Thragtusk
1 Hornet Queen
1 Terastodon
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nature's Claim
1 Rancor
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Wild Growth
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Natural Order
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Treetop Village
1 Psychatog
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Mystic Snake
1 Trygon Predator
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Tundra
1 Dack's Duplicate
1 Ral Zarek
1 Shivan Reef
1 Steam Vents
1 Volcanic Island
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 Rakdos Cackler
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Vindicate
1 Godless Shrine
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Tattermunge Maniac
1 Stomping Ground
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Boros Charm
1 Figure of Destiny
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Savannah
1 Temple Garden
1 Windswept Heath
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mind Stone
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Masticore
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Skullclamp
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mimic Vat
1 Tangle Wire
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Smokestack
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Grand Coliseum
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mana Confluence
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Wasteland
My Cube on Cube Tutor
Devastation Tide -> Cryptic Command
Capsize -> Aether Adept
Condescend -> Daze
Bribery -> Dungeon Geists
Diabolic Edict -> Nether Void
Hearth Kami -> Reckless Charge
Devil's Play -> Goblin Patrol
Revenge of the Hunted -> Wolfbitten Captive
Genesis -> Twinblade Slasher
Viridian Shaman -> Pouncing Jaguar
River Boa -> Skinshifter
Simic Sky Swallower -> Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Lodestone Golem -> Ankh of Mishra
Scroll Rack -> Black Vise
Skinshifter -> River Boa
Mystic Snake -> Simic Sky Swallower
Entreat the Angels -> Nearheath Pilgrim
Bonfire of the Damned -> Stonewright
Frantic Search -> Enclave Cryptologist
Bone Shredder -> Raven's Crime
Exalted Angel -> Mirror Entity
Willbender -> Stifle
Bane of the Living -> Liliana of the Dark Realms
Blistering Firecat -> Hearth Kami
Nantuko Vigilante -> Naturalize
Ajani Goldmane -> Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Stonewright -> Searing Spear
Enclave Cryptologist -> Faerie Conclave
Cryptic Command -> Psionic Blast
Deep Analysis -> Condescend
Raven's Crime -> Inquisition of Kozilek
Profane Command -> Smallpox
Greater Gargadon -> Sneak Attack
Kargan Dragonlord -> Zealous Conscripts
Phantom Centaur -> Treetop Village
Seal of Primordium -> Viridian Shaman
Ankh of Mishra -> Rakdos Cackler
Black Vise -> Lotleth Troll
Nearheath Pilgrim -> Desolation Angel
Arcane Denial -> Lim-Dûl's Vault
Griselbrand -> Detention Sphere
Dance of the Dead -> Mystic Snake
Sneak Attack -> Izzet Charm
Goblin Patrol -> Dryad Militant
Pouncing Jaguar -> Sarkhan Vol
Natural Order -> Lightning Helix
Liliana of the Dark Realms -> Pack Rat
Chandra's Phoenix -> Ash Zealot
Zealous Conscripts -> Thundermaw Hellkite
Arbor Elf -> Thragtusk
Absorb -> Venser, the Sojourner
Terminate -> Dreadbore
Bituminous Blast -> Rakdos Shred-Freak
Life // Death -> Vraska, the Unseen
Nezumi Graverobber -> Reassembling Skeleton
Kokusho, the Evening Star -> Nether Traitor
Dance of the Dead -> Pox
Nantuko Shade -> Carrion Feeder
Hellspark Elemental -> Chandra's Phoenix
Baleful Strix -> Catastrophe
Hinterland Harbor -> Angel of Serenity
Supreme Verdict -> Show and Tell
Sulfur Falls -> Into the Roil
Blackcleave Cliffs -> Dance of the Dead
Llanowar Wastes -> Tombstalker
Caves of Koilos -> Zealous Conscripts
Copperline Gorge -> Mizzium Mortars
Battlefield Forge -> Channel
Horizon Canopy -> Eureka
Stifle -> Cyclonic Rift
Enclave Cryptologist -> Gilded Drake
Bone Shredder -> Diabolic Edict
Profane Command -> Griselbrand
Indrik Stomphowler -> Primeval Titan
Desolation Angel -> Unburial Rites
Sarkhan Vol -> Artifact Mutation
Nearheath Pilgrim -> Baleful Strix
Spectral Procession -> Hinterland Harbor
Cryptic Command -> Supreme Verdict
Meloku the Clouded Mirror -> Sulfur Falls
Tombstalker -> Lavaclaw Reaches
Nether Traitor -> Llanowar Wastes
Kargan Dragonlord -> Caves of Koilos
Siege-Gang Commander -> Raging Ravine
Wild Dogs -> Avacyn's Pilgrim
Strangleroot Geist -> Devoted Druid
Wolfbitten Captive -> Somberwald Sage
Wickerbough Elder -> Nature's Claim
Call of the Herd -> Battlefield Forge
Basking Rootwalla -> Horizon Canopy
Angel of Serenity -> Mind Stone
Kor Sanctifiers -> Spectral Procession
Catastrophe -> Windbrisk Heights
Cyclonic Rift -> Cryptic Command
Gilded Drake -> Gemstone Mine
Show and Tell -> Opposition
Capsize -> Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Doom Blade -> Fleshbag Marauder
Griselbrand -> Abyssal Persecutor
Hearth Kami -> Smash to Smithereens
Sneak Attack -> Gore-House Chainwalker
Nature's Claim -> Experiment One
Eureka -> Wild Dogs
Somberwald Sage -> Call of the Herd
Avacyn's Pilgrim -> Strangleroot Geist
Primeval Titan -> Ice Storm
Devoted Druid -> Winter's Grasp
Lightning Helix -> Boros Charm
Stormbind -> Ghor-Clan Rampager
Baleful Strix -> Duskmantle Seer
Rakdos Shred-Freak -> Fulminator Mage
Vraska the Unseen -> Abrupt Decay
Mystic Snake -> Simic Charm
Windbrisk Heights -> Kor Haven
Leonin Relic-Warder -> Imposing Sovereign
Cloistered Youth -> Soldier of the Pantheon
Silverblade Paladin -> Spear of Heliod
Ajani, Caller of the Pride -> Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Shelter -> Catastrophe
Into the Roil -> Enclave Cryptologist
Consecrated Sphinx -> Aetherling
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage -> Thassa, God of the Sea
Chainer's Edict -> Bone Shredder
Vampire Hexmage -> Hero's Downfall
Fleshbag Marauder -> Tormented Hero
Nether Void -> Tombstalker
Diabolic Edict -> Griselbrand
Countryside Crusher -> Chandra, Pyromaster
Gore-House Chainwalker -> Young Pyromancer
Mizzium Mortars -> Lightning Strike
Char -> Firedrinker Satyr
Krosan Tusker -> Sylvan Caryatid
Channel -> Elvish Mystic
Bramblecrush -> Master of the Wild Hunt
Ice Storm -> Wolfbitten Captive
Vorapede -> Kalonian Hydra
Kodama's Reach -> Awakening Zone
Prophetic Bolt -> Ral Zarek
Electrolyze -> Steam Augury
Unburial Rites -> Gerrard's Verdict
Qasali Pridemage -> Voice of Resurgence
Hinterland Harbor -> Yavimaya Coast
Simic Charm -> Mystic Snake
Slayers' Stronghold -> Lightning Helix
Lim-Dûl's Vault -> Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Chromatic Lantern -> Worn Powerstone
Ring of Gix -> Coldsteel Heart
Molten-Tail Masticore -> Chrome Mox
Elspeth, Sun's Champion -> Porphyry Nodes
Spear of Heliod -> Shelter
Time Spiral -> Mental Misstep
Necropotence -> Diabolic Edict
Abyssal Persecutor -> Contagion
Reckless Charge -> Blood Lust
Zealous Conscripts -> Siege-Gang Commander
Fireblast -> Purphoros, God of the Forge
Pyroclasm -> Goblin Bombardment
Fireslinger -> Ghor-House Chainwalker
Chandra, Pyromaster -> Bonfire of the Damned
Life from the Loam -> Nature's Claim
Cultivate -> Mutagenic Growth
Artifact Mutation -> Xenagos, the Reveler
Ghor-Clan Rampager -> Sarkhan Vol
Kor Skyfisher -> Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Shelter -> Reveillark
Journey to Nowhere -> Banishing Light
Porphyry Nodes -> Council's Judgment
Faith's Fetters -> Harm's Way
Morphling -> Silverblade Paladin
Thassa, God of the Sea -> Consecrated Sphinx
Dungeon Geists -> Time Spiral
Aether Adept -> True-Name Nemesis
Impulse -> Spell Pierce
Bone Shredder -> Clever Impersonator
Geralf's Messenger -> Dig Through Time
Reassembling Skeleton -> Curse of Shallow Graves
Nekrataal -> Ophiomancer
Griselbrand -> Toxic Deluge
Diabolic Edict -> Herald of Torment
Carrion Feeder -> Gnarled Scarhide
Dauthi Horror -> Master of the Feast
Ash Zealot -> Bloodsoaked Champion
Chandra's Phoenix -> Nezumi Graverobber
Bonfire of the Damned -> Exhume
Smash to Smithereens -> Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Spikeshot Elder -> War-Name Aspirant
Goblin Bombardment -> Mizzium Mortars
Torch Fiend -> Reckless Charge
Searing Spear -> Sneak Attack
Gore-House Chainwalker -> Firestorm
Troll Ascetic -> Prophetic Flamespeaker
Wild Dogs -> Tempt with Vengeance
Awakening Zone -> Generator Servant
Sylvan Caryatid -> Goblin Rabblemaster
Garruk, Primal Hunter -> Curse of Predation
Call of the Herd -> Primeval Titan
River Boa -> Courser of Kruphix
Strangleroot Geist -> Wall of Roots
Viridian Shaman -> Terastodon
Vengevine -> Wild Growth
Wall of Blossoms -> Life from the Loam
Sulfur Falls -> Utopia Sprawl
Steam Augury -> Reclamation Sage
Fire // Ice -> Vorapede
Loam Lion -> Cultivate
Fulminator Mage -> Kodama's Reach
Murderous Redcap -> Shivan Reef
Simic Sky Swallower -> Dack Fayden
Lotleth Troll -> Dack's Duplicate
Gerrard's Verdict -> Qasali Pridemage
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver -> Falkenrath Aristocrat
Kird Ape -> Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
Ankh of Mishra -> Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Sensei's Divining Top -> Deathrite Shaman
Deathrite Shaman -> Magister of Worth
Magister of Worth -> Baleful Strix
Xenagos, the Reveler -> Tattermunge Maniac
Lightning Helix -> Everflowing Chalice
Qasali Pridemage -> Erratic Portal
Duskmantle Seer -> Mana Confluence
Kiora, the Crashing Wave -> Chromatic Lantern
Detention Sphere -> Molten-Tail Masticore
Izzet Charm -> Evolving Wilds
Falkenrath Aristocrat -> Terramorphic Expanse
Mental Misstep -> Personal Tutor
Curse of Shallow Graves -> Imperial Seal
Phyrexian Arena -> Griselbrand
Tombstalker -> Flesh Carver
Smallpox -> Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Pox -> Nether Void
Herald of Torment -> Dauthi Horror
Chandra Nalaar -> Rolling Earthquake
Tempt with Vengeance -> Burning of Xinye
Mogg Fanatic -> Imperial Recruiter
Generator Servant -> Fire Imp
Keldon Vandals -> Hero of Oxid Ridge
Prophetic Flamespeaker -> Char
Molten Rain -> Smash to Smithereens
Pillage -> Feldon of the Third Path
Utopia Sprawl -> Jungle Lion
Kodama's Reach -> Sylvan Tutor
Cultivate -> Sylvan Caryatid
Arbor Elf -> Strangleroot Geist
Curse of Predation -> Song of the Dryads
Vorapede -> Vengevine
Karn Liberated -> Sensei's Divining Top
Steppe Lynx -> Dragon Hunter
Academy Rector -> Ojutai Exemplars
Spell Pierce -> Treasure Cruise
Clever Impersonator -> Into the Roil
Hypnotic Specter -> Blood-Chin Rager
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker -> Pain Seer
Tombstalker -> Chainer's Edict
Monastery Swiftspear -> Zurgo Bellstriker
Hellkite Overlord -> Siege Rhino
Tattermunge Maniac -> Draglord Atarka
Ajani Goldmane -> Flickerwisp
Champion of the Parish -> Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Kor Skyfisher -> Kytheon, Hero of Akros
Ojutai Exemplars -> Relic Seeker
Savannah Lions -> Steppe Lynx
Into the Roil -> Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Personal Tutor -> Mystic Confluence
Time Spiral -> Scatter to the Winds
Treasure Cruise -> Whirler Rogue
Blood-Chin Rager -> Drana, Liberator of Malakir
Chainer's Edict -> Languish
Nether Void -> Liliana, Heretical Hero
Profane Command -> Mardu Strike Leader
Vampire Nighthawk -> Ruinous Path
Gore-House Chainwalker -> Fiery Confluence
Gorilla Shaman -> Goblin Glory Chaser
Hero of Oxid Ridge -> Makindi Sliderunner
Mizzium Mortars -> Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Arbor Elf -> Evolutionary Leap
Sylvan Tutor -> Greenwarden of Murasa
Vengevine -> Nissa, Vastwood Seer
Wild Growth -> Scythe Leopard
Dreadbore -> Kolaghan's Command
Chromatic Lantern -> Stirring Wildwood
Caves of Koilos -> Shambling Vent
Trygon Predator -> Kiora, Master of the Depths
Yavimaya Coast -> Lumbering Falls
Thran Dynamo -> Hedron Archive
Brutal Hordechief -> Woodland Wanderer
Lodestone Golem -> Hangarback Walker
My Cube on Cube Tutor
Also, I just recently added Life/Death to my cube, but we've only had one draft since then and it hasn't seen play. Has it performed well in both BG and mono-coloured decks?
The Modal Cube is also on Cube Tutor!
GWEDH Asmira's WrathGW
Dark Ritual has been consistently amazing. Fueling a big early Mind Twist, forcing out Ob Nixilis, the Fallen or Grave Titan two turns earlier than normal. It's card disadvantage, sure, but the upside is so tremendous that I can't really imagine not running it at any level. It's often not what you want to see as a top deck late game, but neither is Sol Ring.
Green's mana dorks are still useful for the color, even in an environment with moxen. Green's competitive advantage is the ability to escalate mana far more quickly than other colors, and I find that I'm almost never disappointed to play a mana elf on turns 1-3. They also allow a turn 3 Natural Order fairly consistently, which is pretty great for whoever casts it. I like them so much, and feel they're so important to green's identity, that I'm considering adding Avacyn's Pilgrim just for some extra redundancy.
As far as Life // Death, I think it borders on being a pet card. I don't doubt that Putrefy is a better card, objectively. But it's nice to have another reanimator spell (you'll notice I have a couple more enablers for that strategy than the average 360 cube), and the Life half has some cute synergies (Tamiyo's -2, Garruk 1.0's -4) that it's worth keeping around.
Awesome, thanks so much for that. Some of the unusual cards listed are AVR cards, which I'm sure will become more accepted over time, but it's helpful to know what I'm missing relative to the hive mind. A lot fewer than I was expecting, frankly.
My Cube on Cube Tutor
With respect to the frequency of casting the card on the miracle turn, I've found that for the most part the cards are good enough to play even when being hardcast. That said, I've jammed the cube with all of the playable library manipulation spells I could, including one possibly suboptimal card in Condescend to ensure miracles go off more frequently. For the most part, they do.
As far as the miracle on Devastation Tide specifically, because it's reasonably easy to hard cast, it requires the most thought as to whether or not you want to activate the miracle. I wish I could give a more concrete answer to your question, but it's really a very strong, "Well, it depends."
Obviously it sees play primarily in blue control decks, as you can hard cast it if you wish against any deck that's pulled ahead of you to save your skin. Of course the blue control deck will most likely have a fair amount of library manipulation, so as to more or less guarantee the miracle activation when you need it. It's especially disgusting because you can very easily cast it during the opponent's end step with a timely Sensei's Divining Top activation or Brainstorm, then jump way ahead on the board during your own turn.
We've found that a worse Upheaval is still pretty darned good.
My Cube on Cube Tutor
I think it's more akin to Evacuation, which I actually prefer for several reasons. First, the effect is far more powerful at instant speed. Second, it doesn't hit all of my noncreature permanents... so I can build up a base of artifacts, enchamtments, 'walkers, etc and then nuke my opponent's creature base at the end of their turn. Without the ability to do that, the Tide is even harder to make asymmetrical.
So it's not a card you can truly abuse, it's just the reset button half of better spells that can otherwise be broken.
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Totally agree. The cards serve different functions, even if they look superficially similar. The reason I compared the two of them so off-handedly was because that was the way most of the MtG punditry described Tide when it was first spoiled. My mistake; thanks for calling me on it.
Because of its color, Tide can be played at instant speed fairly consistently, and at 40% of the cost. This happens reasonably frequently, and I think it's something you've been neglecting to consider when evaluating the miracle mechanic.
I think this is a bit of a strawman. You're right, you can't create a dedicated Tide.dec the same way you can build, say, a Wildfire.dec. But there are plenty of times when I would gladly bounce my own walkers/enchantments/artifacts (especially the moxen) to get my opponents' junk off the board, too. In other words, I think the reset button half of better spells is still cube-worthy, particularly for such a cheap cost in a color that is often on its back foot against a strong aggro deck.
In any event, I don't think it's a slam-dunk 360 staple, but I'm almost never sorry to draw into it or even have it in my hand. As I said in the opening post, I want to have a miracle card in each color to create a little bit of a mystery as to what I'm drawing into, and as far as I can tell it's the best blue miracle card they printed. Maybe in a couple of weeks I'll see the light and switch to Vanishment or something, or just drop the blue and green miracles altogether. Consider it under the microscope.
My Cube on Cube Tutor
Out --> In
Willbender --> Daze
Devastation Tide --> Psionic Blast
Capsize --> Into the Roil
Preordain --> Standstill
First thing you'll notice is that the morph creatures and mediocre miracles are out. Both Devastation Tide and Revenge of the Hunted could be incredible, but they very seldom fit snugly in decks that used them. The morph creatures are going out not because they weren't good (they are), but more for aesthetic reasons--I think the mechanic is a little too goofy, and often difficult for new players to deal with. They'll probably be back, but for now they remain in the on-deck binder.
It's kind of en vogue to remove Capsize, and I can see why. Blue doesn't need another 6 CMC finisher, and Roil fits into the Blue tempo subtheme (while remaining great in the more traditional blue decks) I would like to encourage a little bit more. The same logic applies to Psi Blast and Daze, both extremely versatile blue cards.
Standstill has long been one of my favorite cards. It's great in U/x tempo, or after dropping an Upheaval. This will probably end up being a pet card that I'll remove after a few weeks, but I'm curious about the experiences others have had with it.
Exalted Angel --> Knight of Meadowgrain
Another casualty of the de-morphing. Originally I was going to add Kor Sanctifiers, but I'm not sure white needs any more enchantment/artifact removal. I consider Seal of Cleansing to be superior to the Sanctifiers, as it also goes in pretty much every white deck, whereas Sanctifiers isn't really at home in white aggro. Knight is effective both in and against aggro, and allows control the lifegain that Angel provided previously.
Revenge of the Hunted --> Troll Ascetic
Nantuko Vigilante --> Skinshifter
Garruk Relentless --> Pouncing Jaguar
Troll Ascetic is too good not to run, and silly me for not figuring that out earlier. Skinshifter is a decent-ish aggro card that can fit into a more midrange green deck in a pinch. Pouncing Jaguar is the best non-Rootwalla green 1-drop that I can run, since I don't really want to use a Portal card like Jungle Lion. Garruk 3.0 is clunky, and none of us really like playing with him.
Blistering Firecat --> Firestorm
Devil's Play --> Smash to Smithereens
Chandra Nalaar --> Zealous Conscripts
Firestorm allows red to have another effective discard outlet, a necessity in my cube, since I push reanimator a little bit harder than other 360 lists. It can also be used to ravage the aggro player's board, even if it is a heavy investment.
I'm not sure a 360 cube needs 3 X spells, and Devil's Play is the worst of the 3 I run currently. Chandra has consistently underwhelmed. Am I missing something with her?
Bane of the Living --> Nether Void
Doom Blade --> Putrid Imp
Nezumi Graverobber --> Exhume
Nether Void is a killer aggro topper. Black has no shortage of targeted removal, and needed another discard outlet. Graverobber we've found to be too fragile/cute to actually go off even more than half the time (and more or less impossible if you drop it any turn after 5 or so). Exhume is pretty much never dead, even if the drawback is worse than the creature.
Trygon Predator --> Edric, Spymaster of Trest
With the aggro push in both blue and green, Edric seems like an obvious include. I think the predator is probably the 3rd or 4th best simic card, but it's the worst fit in my cube, so out it goes.
Thoughts, hive mind?
My Cube on Cube Tutor
Additionally, the cuts of Capsize, Preordain, Garruk Relentless, Chandra Nalaar, Nezumi Graverobber and Trygon Predator I'd probably reverse or find other cuts. So overall, I'm not really a fan of the update at all, other than cutting Devastation Tide and Revenge of the Hunted.
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I know that's the overarching feeling on these boards. Can you explain it a little bit more to me? We've always seen as it as extremely underwhelming. It's green removal, sure, but you can't use it without moxen until turn 3, and you're only going to be able to get a 1 or 2 toughness creature out of the deal if you want to keep him around. Is the flipside that exciting? I don't think a 1/1 deathtouch is great shakes. The tutor is awesome, admittedly, but the ultimate is milquetoast. Basically it seems like it's too much effort to make it flip, and not enough reward. It just screams "durdle" to me. I respect the hell out of you and wtwlf both to know that I'm probably missing something here, but I'm not seeing it.
That's cool. Like I said, they're on time-out, not death row.
Well gee, thanks for the constructive criticism. In any event, I find some of your objections confusing, as you removed Capsize from your 360 list before your expansion to 450, and in the Edric SCD you basically said that the Simic section was a pick'em between the big 4. You also had Preordain out of your 360 list for a very long time, deciding (rightly, imo) that it wasn't as good as Ponder.
Why do you think Graverobber is better than Exhume? Because it can carry equipment? The drawback of Exhume is too great?
My Cube on Cube Tutor
Because it's a nice anti-graveyard card that doubles as reanimation support that's on a reasonably costed creature that can be played in pretty much every black archetype.
Unless you're "all in" with black reanimation support and dedicated reanimator is a big part of black's identity, Exhume isn't close to as good as the creature.
I didn't play Capsize in the end, but I'd play it over any of the blue cards you're adding in. Same goes for Preordain.
Trygon Predator wouldn't be my exclusion of choice from 360 in the Simic section.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
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First, it's one of the few cards cards in green which can provide card or creature advantage no matter what the board state is - i.e. regardless of what is in your graveyard or on your opponent's board. The other cards which do so are Wall of Blossoms, the other two Garruks, Acidic Slime, Vorapede. If I play any of those cards I KNOW the opponent will almost certainly have to expend more resources than I did to get rid of it. It's not a fantastic test, but it's indicative. Garruk 3 has the best casting cost out of all of these besides the Wall, easily, costing only a single green mana and 3 colorless. Also note that its Wolf-Making ability is better than Garruk 1's - it keeps G3 at 3 counters after the first turn vs. G1's 2 counters, and G3 can make an infinite number of wolves without pausing, unlike G1.
Another point I want to make is that I almost never expect to keep Garruk 3 alive. 70% of the time, I will use the ability to kill a guy. Now my opponent has to find a way to kill it while they are down a creature. If they can't kill it the turn it flips, then they will almost certainly have to use one of their removal spells in order to get through to kill it. But the proof of Garruk's worth is not his ability to stay alive - it's his ability to demand that your opponent spend excessive resources in order to get rid of him. It's obviously useful against aggro in this way, but it might be even better against control. The splashable cost allows you to get him in earlier than the other four-drops. Garruk 3 is the easiest to cast out of every single four drop you run! Once he's on the board, what is control going to do to get rid of him? He can snap virtually all of their fliers (when untransformed of course). Are they going to Upheaval?
Finally, it is the only creature removal spell in green worth running at 360. True, color niche isn't always good enough. But the nice thing about Garruk of course is that he is removal which can double as a creature generator when you don't need removal. How much is that sort of flexibility worth to you? It means that you can play him out on curve virtually any time you want unless the board is highly highly unfavorable to you, but since you're often ramping up in green the board state is almost always going to be favorable to you to drop him in the early game.
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
Is it, though? The ability to dig 50% deeper into your 40 card deck is nothing to sneeze at.
My thinking on Firestorm was that it provides red with another needed discard outlet (beyond Faithless Looting and Wheel of Fortune), as well as functioning reasonably in a non-reanimator deck.
Yeah, you're probably right. My thinking was that the +2 doesn't really affect the board state as much as it should, and the -X often just leads to poor Chandra making a hasty exit to the graveyard, which basically makes it a 5cc Terminate. And with Bonfire of the Damned, the ultimate isn't as unique and exciting as it once was. But the versatility is really important, so it'll stay in.
I think that's actually a really interesting way of thinking about this. There are only 4 hexproof/shroud guys in the cube (Morphling, Simic Sky Swallower, Geist of St. Traft, and Thrun, the Last Troll). I think you're on to something here.
What I was trying to say is that in the mid-late game, when Nezumi doesn't really stand a chance of flipping due to filled graveyards, Exhume will almost always net you a better creature than a 2/1 for 2. Of course, it will also give your opponent something good as well. In any event, wtwlf convinced me that Nezumi is a better fit for the cube, as it both enables and combats regeneration shenanigans.
What should?
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When you put it that way, I guess it's pretty myopic to assume that every non-white color needs a good discard outlet. I think you just saved me 10 bucks. Thanks
Yeah, Nezumi and Chandra both remain, and Exhume is on the outside looking in.
I think I'm one of the few people on this board that consider Natural Order cubable, or at least powerful and fun enough to warrant inclusion as long as you have at least 3 principal targets for it. If I removed SSS, that leaves only two: Hornet Queen and Woodfall Primus. We all feel the effect is powerful enough to justify removing two of the fringe-y green cards to include it and Hornet Queen, but I'm not sure it's justifiable without SSS. Do you think it would be? Keep in mind that removing Natural Order, for now, is not an option for our playgroup.
In any event, if I don't find a way to squeeze in Edric, I may just take out Green aggro altogether. I'm only running 6 cards in the archetype:
I was hoping the inclusion of Edric, along with Pouncing Jaguar and Skinshifter, would help prop up the archetype, which struggles even as a secondary option in any aggro deck. Of course, Edric would also require an uptick in Blue tempo cards (which I described in my proposed update), and THAT would justify my keeping Geist of Saint Traft in the cube. Geist is a card that almost never sees play simply because Blue is so control-oriented.
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Out -> In
Green Aggro
Revenge of the Hunted -> Wolfbitten Captive
Genesis -> Twinblade Slasher
Nantuko Vigilante -> Pouncing Jaguar
River Boa -> Skinshifter
Genesis is the creature I'm least excited to ramp into; it's versatile and crushes in the control/midrange mirror, but I think it's the narrowest of the green 5-drops I run. I don't think I'll miss it.
River Boa hasn't overwhelmed or underwhelmed in its stay, it's just...whelmed. Like Skinshifter, it can go in green aggro or play a defensive position. But I want to try out Skinshifter and see if its 4 power plays better in aggro decks.
Simic Sky Swallower -> Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Something had to make room for Edric, and SSS is the least interesting of the 4 Simic cards. If I find that Natural Order needs another target to make it run smoother, I probably won't add this back in, but instead find a way for Pelakka Wurm.
Colorless Aggro
Lodestone Golem -> Ankh of Mishra
Scroll Rack -> Black Vise
Lodestone Golem was the worst of the aggro 4-drops. Scroll Rack isn't as good when you're not running the full miracle set. Besides, multicolor control decks need more checks and balances. Consider Ankh the check and Vise the balance.
Black Aggro
Bane of the Living -> Nether Void
Nether Void is boss.
Red
Blistering Firecat -> Reckless Charge
Earthquake -> Goblin Patrol
Slayers' Stronghold made me, like wtwlf, realize how great Charge is. I think it might even be a 360 staple. I don't need 3 Red XCC spells, and Earthquake is the most fungible. Goblin Patrol is boring, but gives red another 2-power 1-drop.
White
Exalted Angel -> Knight of Meadowgrain
Blue Tempo-ish
Devastation Tide -> Cryptic Command
Capsize -> Aether Adept
Condescend -> Daze
Willbender -> Dungeon Geists
These are changes I'm going to test for a few weeks. I want another free counterspell, Cryptic Command does double duty, and two extra value creatures are great for any blue deck.
Thanks, cube forum, for all your insight. You're the best!
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If you have to bring in Edric at 360, the SSS is an okay cut. But I personally prefer it, especially if you're running Natural Order.
I could see cutting Scroll Rack at 360, so the colorless changes look fine. I didn't run any of those 4 cards in my 360 list though.
I love Bane of the Living. 4-power beaters and sweepers built into the same card are totally boss.
Blistering Firecat is such a beating. 7 damage out of nowhere is completely awesome. He's such a threat, and a major contributor in red aggro decks; he brings you into reach range better than almost any other red card in my list. And Earthquake is a wonderful spell. Sweepers that double as reach are pretty epic, and there's decks that can make it totally asymmetrical.
I think Exalted Angel is still one of the best white creatures in the cube. I wouldn't cut it for another 2-drop.
Blue looks okay, I like Willbender more than Aether Adept though; the 'bender has been the clutch card in so many situations, almost always 3-for-1 card advantage. Pretty good for never even needing to reach 4 mana, and only requiring a single blue.
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Neither am I, frankly, but like you and everyone else have said, if you want green aggro to be viable, you need to really push it. Here are the 4+ CC creatures that I run:
I'm more excited to ramp into each one of those creatures than I am to ramp into Genesis. I understand that Genesis is objectively a better card than Pouncing Jaguar, but it's the most cuttable of the others, except maaaaaaaybe Phantom Centaur.
Obviously your cube list is what I modeled mine on, and the more I think about it the more I think you're on target w/r/t the morphs. I think I'm going to do this:
Knight of Meadowgrain -> Exalted Angel
Bribery -> Willbender
Diabolic Edict -> Bane of the Living
Keldon Vandals -> [CARD]Blistering Firecat
[/CARD]
Either Phantom Centaur or Viridian Shaman -> Nantuko Vigilante
Meadowgrain and Edict are easy cuts. Bribery isn't, but it's the weakest of blue's creature-theft spells, and I don't think the color needs to devote 10% of its space to that effect. Because of its echo costs, Vandals doesn't live to see as many turns as a more versatile artifact-removal creature like Hearth Kami. Vigilante can attack enchantments, Shaman can't, and Shaman is getting the axe because Uktabi Orangutan always makes me laugh when I look at it. Because I run Seal of Primordium, I'm less worried about losing an artifact removal card in the color than I otherwise would be (I'm running only 1 fewer than you were in your 360 list).
In a vaccum I like Boa more than Skinshifter, too (especially because I loved to play 10-land stompy way back when). But I think that Skinshifter will prove to be slightly better in green aggro, as well as being an excellent blocker for a minimal investment in midrange/control. In any event I'm going to keep a very close eye on this.
I think if I need to add another target for Natural Order, I'll end up squeezing in Pelakka Wurm, since at least you can hard cast it in a Rock or GW deck.
I know, I know! But don't you think 3 red XCC spells is overkill? How would you rank Devil's Play, Earthquake, and Bonfire of the Damned?
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I love the 5 "core" morph creatures, and I'll probably continue to run them forever unless we get better ones in a set that revisits the mechanic. I'm not a fan of most of the cuts you're leaning towards to bring them back in, but I like those more than excluding the morph creatures altogether.
If you're blocking, you can regenerate your Boa against non-trample creatures, and still kill off their attackers. If you're attacking, you don't have to sink mana into it to at least swing for two. That's clutch. Imagine Nantuko Shade as a 1/1. The reason it's good is because even if you only "bluff" the pump, he's still a 2-drop that bashes for two. And the Boa's straight unblockable in 40%+ of your games. And it can regenerate against removal that allows it (there's a lot more now than there used to be). I played the Skinshifter long enough to learn he's no river boa.
Ya, you can always "add in" the Wurm to green if you feel short on targets, but if the Genesis cut showed you anything, it's that green is a hell of a lot tighter than it looks. Simic can live without Edric for the sake of supporting Natural Order and Ramp with another fatty. Powerful narrow cards are right at home in the multicolor section. And he's got evasion, trample and shroud.
I rank the X sweepers higher than the Blaze variants. I'd say: Rolling Earthquake > Earthquake > Bonfire/Devil's Play (Bonfire is still in test mode for me; I'm not convinced it's a staple yet, but if it proves good in practice, I'll keep it as my 3rd X spell and leave the Play out).
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Don't I know it. I think green might actually be the tightest section in the cube. I would never have guessed that when I first started constructing it.
And with that, here are the final (for now) changes, reflected in the cube contents list. Thanks to everybody.
Out -> In
Devastation Tide -> Cryptic Command
Capsize -> Aether Adept
Condescend -> Daze
Bribery -> Dungeon Geists
Diabolic Edict -> Nether Void
Hearth Kami -> Reckless Charge
Devil's Play -> Goblin Patrol
Revenge of the Hunted -> Wolfbitten Captive
Genesis -> Twinblade Slasher
Viridian Shaman -> Pouncing Jaguar
River Boa -> Skinshifter
Simic Sky Swallower -> Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Lodestone Golem -> Ankh of Mishra
Scroll Rack -> [CARD]Black Vise
[/CARD]
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Ashes to Ashes can be a blowout. Or it can also be the reason you lose. There were too many times that I got run-over by not having two targets that we cut it long ago. I almost prefer Slaughter at this point in time because I can use it to kill just 1 guy if I need to, and the life drawback is optional. But black's removal suite is too good for that spell either.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!