I just think that the only decks that would need the splashability of arrest would be 3 color decks, in which case they would have better options in the 3rd color.
Boros and Selesnya wouldn't have a problem with 2 white mana, but if someone went with Naya, that means they have every red burn spell as an option, which is usually a better choice in a zoo deck.
Azorious wouldn't have trouble with 2 white mana, but might if a 3rd color is splashed in. Adding black means you could just pick up a kill spell to replace it. Azorious implies control, so you should already have other control cards that are 3 drops, meaning that you'd be perfectly fine waiting until turn 4 to get your double white mana.
It's not just "having trouble" with the cost that makes splashability important. If I have 5 mana out (and only 2 white sources), and I want to play my Disenchant and my removal spell in the same turn... I'd much rather have the one that only has one white in its cost.
And even in 2 color decks, your W/R deck could have 2 mountains and 1 plains on turn 3 all the time. It's not uncommon at all.
You're going to make the assumption that your control deck will always have something better for you to do on turn 3, so waiting until turn 4 for your removal is perfectly fine? I would not live by this logic if you value consistency. Their T4 may be an avalanche riders targeting your only white source, and even if you were sitting on a plains... you can't get the Term off now.
There are a lot of examples where cards are "better enough" to warrant a steeper casting cost (see Centaur Courser vs Troll Ascetic for example). Prison Term isn't better enough to justify the harder casting cost... especially not on removal spells where splashability is so crucial.
wtwlf has it covered pretty well but i'll just summarize that i played prison term a fair amount and it wasn't better than arrest at all. the added ability didn't come up enough to justify the restrictive cost. two white is actually more problematic than it should be for a spell like that, and by problematic i mean more easily disrupted, less consistent, more limiting in what you can play in a single turn, etc.
regarding the cloak: it's hits at least a turn earlier. if you want to have pseudo haste with the sledge, you'd need 6 mana.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Prison Term has been useful one time that I can remember. My opponent played his Troll Ascetic while Term was on the board, and since moving it doesn't target, his Troll did not pass Go, did not collect $200, and went directly to jail. That's about it, though. Most of the time Arrest is the same spell, just easier to cast. I keep Prison Term in my cube over Arrest because that's what my playgroup wanted. I, however, agree that splashability and the easier casting cost is better on a spell like this.
It's all good man... it's kind of counter intuitive. If I hadn't played both cards pretty extensively, I would've agreed with you. But the playtesting has shown me different results, and I can't argue with that.
first post updated with change log and pictures. this is my first time taking cube pictures so some of them are kind of blurry. the change log idea is of course entirely functional and i should have added it long ago. pictures aren't something i care too much about but after reading the cube thread how-to i realize that not everyone is like me (shocking :p) and pictures can be important to visitors and would-be advice givers. and since the entire point of posting this in a public forum is to get feedback, here are your pictures!
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Those pictures look great. Blurriness isn't that big of a deal since most people here know what the cards do and you can still tell what versions of the cards you are running. I like the proxies on those abu duals.
This has inspired me to take some pictures some time soon.
Those pictures look great. Blurriness isn't that big of a deal since most people here know what the cards do and you can still tell what versions of the cards you are running. I like the proxies on those abu duals.
This has inspired me to take some pictures some time soon.
thanks a lot, man! photography is not my forte but they came out better than i was expecting. it was a lot more work than i thought it would be, though.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I like pictures...makes it much easier for me to quickly scan a cube. Overall very good job, as it definitely looks like a relatively balanced and powerful cube.
-Has Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug been good? I've run Blast from the Past for as long as I've had a cube, but as of right now it's the only Unglued card I have in right now. I think I might return Frazzled Editor and W/W/W/W/W as well, and after seeing the Slug I really, really want to give it a shot as well if it's good enough.
-How has Griffin Guide been? I used to run it in my cube, but it didn't see play for a little while so it was removed. Has it been better for people playing your cube?
-Has Unearth seen a reasonable amount of play? I've seen the card in some cubes, but it doesn't really excite me. Does it play better than it looks?
Has Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug been good? I've run Blast from the Past for as long as I've had a cube, but as of right now it's the only Unglued card I have in right now. I think I might return Frazzled Editor and W/W/W/W/W as well, and after seeing the Slug I really, really want to give it a shot as well if it's good enough.
haven't seen it in a draft yet, unfortunately. i'll post an update when it's seen some testing.
How has Griffin Guide been? I used to run it in my cube, but it didn't see play for a little while so it was removed. Has it been better for people playing your cube?
i really like griffin guide, although i understand the reasons people dislike it. it's been good every time it's been played and it's kind of a group favorite, but it's definitely one of the weaker cards in my cube.
Has Unearth seen a reasonable amount of play? I've seen the card in some cubes, but it doesn't really excite me. Does it play better than it looks?
it's been fine, but i wouldn't be sad to lose it. it often works as a regenerate you get an etb trigger out of and don't need to hold mana open for. good but not great. it's a lot of fun, though, and the cycling is really useful.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
So I was looking at your cube pictures (bravo!), and I saw that you were running Plague Sliver. I was wondering, have you ever thought about cutting Plague Sliver for Phyrexian Scuta?
My friend and I had a lengthy discussion about the pros and cons of each, with the conclusion that, in theory, plague sliver should be better because you don't lose the life right away; but in practice, he usually ends up losing you 3 or more life. Personally, I had a game where I just threw a pacifism on my opponent's Plague Sliver and let him lose a bunch of life.
We concluded that Phyrexian Scuta is more splashable and has the ability to be a chump blocker if you don't want to risk losing the life.
yeah i like the splashability of the scuta, i just don't own one. if i saw one in a shop i'd pick it up for sure. the only benefit of the sliver is that if it gets killed immediately you aren't down 3 life.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
So I was looking at your cube pictures (bravo!), and I saw that you were running Plague Sliver. I was wondering, have you ever thought about cutting Plague Sliver for Phyrexian Scuta?
My friend and I had a lengthy discussion about the pros and cons of each, with the conclusion that, in theory, plague sliver should be better because you don't lose the life right away; but in practice, he usually ends up losing you 3 or more life. Personally, I had a game where I just threw a pacifism on my opponent's Plague Sliver and let him lose a bunch of life.
We concluded that Phyrexian Scuta is more splashable and has the ability to be a chump blocker if you don't want to risk losing the life.
I like Juzam/Sliver more. If the card is answered right away, you loose little to no life. If your opponent bounces it back to your hand, you don't have to keep re-paying 3 life over and over. And finally, if it trades in combat or spends less than 3 turns on the table, you also lose less life. The only thing that makes it better is the Pacifism situation, and even then... it's only an issue if the game runs long.
I've never tried Juzam/Sliver in my cube and have always just ran Scuta instead. I don't even think we had any sort of reasoning behind the change when Scuta went in. There was never a discussion where we were like, "What's the pros and cons of both?" and decided on Scuta. We just skipped Sliver all together (no way I got cash for a Juzam) and went straight for the Scuta. Maybe I'll think about replacing him with the Sliver for a while to see how differently the two play. Scuta's been in for around a year now and he's been fine. The threat of having him bounced (probably the worst thing you can have done to your Scuta) hasn't really came up that often. Most of the time he's just been an easy to cast 5/5 that drains me for three. I don't think I've ever played him as a 3/3.
I just don't see a reason not to run both (unless you can afford a Juzam, and even then I think I'd be OK with black having three 5/5s for 4cc). Black Aggro loves these guys.
I just don't see a reason not to run both (unless you can afford a Juzam, and even then I think I'd be OK with black having three 5/5s for 4cc). Black Aggro loves these guys.
Cheers,
rant
Good point. At the time, it was a lot easier to take 1 out for the other so I didn't have to go through the process of evaluating undercosted beef vs. board interaction.
Hey quitequiter, I tried out magical hacker in my cube, and he was way to unfair with planeswalkers that he immediately picked over sol ring and library in my cube, so I have a foil one I'm looking to get rid of before people here kill me, you want it for free? I also have foil sigil of distinction extra for you if you want it? I cut it a while ago.
PM if you want em man, they are free.
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i proxied these up, and they look awful, but my group said they will do for now, so in they go! the expansion will probably be temporary, but i haven't cubed much lately and i need to do a lot more before i am sure what i (and the group) want to drop. i am in the process of getting some additional cards as well:
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Let me know how Trinket Mage works out. Even with power, it was too narrow for me. Hopefully it's better for you.
it seems fun, and on paper not any more narrow than goblin welder (who did surprisingly well in an unpowered environment) or tezzeret the seeker, so i wanted to give it a shot. i know from reading the threads that most have found the little dude not quite good enough, but i like to learn from my own experience when i can.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Excellent update, man. The only thing I can't endorse is the removal of Rude Awakening for Gaea's Cradle. Not because I think Rude Awakening is awesome sauce because it's not amazing by no means, but Gaea's Cradle has been really bad here. If Rude Awakening has been unimpressive, as much as I like the card, I couldn't blame you for removing it, but I don't think Cradle is the card that should come in at all.
cube expansion and totally non-m11 related update:
[...]
Nice update. I really enjoyed the way my cube 'felt' after we added in power and other top tier cards. It really broke up the stagnant decktypes that kept appearing and really opened up the field for a much wider variety of decks.
Boros and Selesnya wouldn't have a problem with 2 white mana, but if someone went with Naya, that means they have every red burn spell as an option, which is usually a better choice in a zoo deck.
Azorious wouldn't have trouble with 2 white mana, but might if a 3rd color is splashed in. Adding black means you could just pick up a kill spell to replace it. Azorious implies control, so you should already have other control cards that are 3 drops, meaning that you'd be perfectly fine waiting until turn 4 to get your double white mana.
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And even in 2 color decks, your W/R deck could have 2 mountains and 1 plains on turn 3 all the time. It's not uncommon at all.
You're going to make the assumption that your control deck will always have something better for you to do on turn 3, so waiting until turn 4 for your removal is perfectly fine? I would not live by this logic if you value consistency. Their T4 may be an avalanche riders targeting your only white source, and even if you were sitting on a plains... you can't get the Term off now.
There are a lot of examples where cards are "better enough" to warrant a steeper casting cost (see Centaur Courser vs Troll Ascetic for example). Prison Term isn't better enough to justify the harder casting cost... especially not on removal spells where splashability is so crucial.
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regarding the cloak: it's hits at least a turn earlier. if you want to have pseudo haste with the sledge, you'd need 6 mana.
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It's all good man... it's kind of counter intuitive. If I hadn't played both cards pretty extensively, I would've agreed with you. But the playtesting has shown me different results, and I can't argue with that.
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This has inspired me to take some pictures some time soon.
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thanks a lot, man! photography is not my forte but they came out better than i was expecting. it was a lot more work than i thought it would be, though.
-Has Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug been good? I've run Blast from the Past for as long as I've had a cube, but as of right now it's the only Unglued card I have in right now. I think I might return Frazzled Editor and W/W/W/W/W as well, and after seeing the Slug I really, really want to give it a shot as well if it's good enough.
-How has Griffin Guide been? I used to run it in my cube, but it didn't see play for a little while so it was removed. Has it been better for people playing your cube?
-Has Unearth seen a reasonable amount of play? I've seen the card in some cubes, but it doesn't really excite me. Does it play better than it looks?
(list not current)
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(list is always current)
haven't seen it in a draft yet, unfortunately. i'll post an update when it's seen some testing.
i really like griffin guide, although i understand the reasons people dislike it. it's been good every time it's been played and it's kind of a group favorite, but it's definitely one of the weaker cards in my cube.
it's been fine, but i wouldn't be sad to lose it. it often works as a regenerate you get an etb trigger out of and don't need to hold mana open for. good but not great. it's a lot of fun, though, and the cycling is really useful.
My friend and I had a lengthy discussion about the pros and cons of each, with the conclusion that, in theory, plague sliver should be better because you don't lose the life right away; but in practice, he usually ends up losing you 3 or more life. Personally, I had a game where I just threw a pacifism on my opponent's Plague Sliver and let him lose a bunch of life.
We concluded that Phyrexian Scuta is more splashable and has the ability to be a chump blocker if you don't want to risk losing the life.
So, I ended up cutting Plague Sliver for Phyrexian Scuta.
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I like Juzam/Sliver more. If the card is answered right away, you loose little to no life. If your opponent bounces it back to your hand, you don't have to keep re-paying 3 life over and over. And finally, if it trades in combat or spends less than 3 turns on the table, you also lose less life. The only thing that makes it better is the Pacifism situation, and even then... it's only an issue if the game runs long.
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I just don't see a reason not to run both (unless you can afford a Juzam, and even then I think I'd be OK with black having three 5/5s for 4cc). Black Aggro loves these guys.
Cheers,
rant
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Good point. At the time, it was a lot easier to take 1 out for the other so I didn't have to go through the process of evaluating undercosted beef vs. board interaction.
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OUT --> IN
worn powerstone --> black lotus
silent arbiter --> mox pearl
deathrender --> mox sapphire
panoptic mirror --> mox jet
staff of domination --> mox ruby
obelisk of alara --> mox emerald
crystal shard --> mana crypt
etched oracle --> cursed scroll
nothing --> gideon jura
nothing --> ravages of war
nothing --> time walk
nothing --> timetwister
compulsive research --> ancestral recall
shelldock isle --> tolarian academy
draining whelk --> crystal shard
teferi, mage of zhalfir--> gifts given
jushi apprentice --> trinket mage
vesuvan shapeshifter --> tezzeret the seeker
nothing --> thoughtseize
nothing --> nether void
nothing --> chain lightning
nothing --> rolling earthquake
zo-zu the punisher --> burning of xinye
nothing --> tarmogoyf
nothing --> berserk
rude awakening --> gaea's cradle
ant queen --> natural order
nothing --> etched oracle (into multicolor)
nothing --> obelisk of alara (into multicolor)
nothing --> wasteland
nothing --> maze of ith
nothing --> rishadan port
i proxied these up, and they look awful, but my group said they will do for now, so in they go! the expansion will probably be temporary, but i haven't cubed much lately and i need to do a lot more before i am sure what i (and the group) want to drop. i am in the process of getting some additional cards as well:
bribery
desertion
vedalken shackles
volrath's stronghold
fire ambush
dust bowl
those will go in when i get them.
Let me know how Trinket Mage works out. Even with power, it was too narrow for me. Hopefully it's better for you.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
it seems fun, and on paper not any more narrow than goblin welder (who did surprisingly well in an unpowered environment) or tezzeret the seeker, so i wanted to give it a shot. i know from reading the threads that most have found the little dude not quite good enough, but i like to learn from my own experience when i can.
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My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Nice update. I really enjoyed the way my cube 'felt' after we added in power and other top tier cards. It really broke up the stagnant decktypes that kept appearing and really opened up the field for a much wider variety of decks.
[Remixes] - [The Brutal Cube - 360 Powered] - [My Cube Article] - ['Print-This' Wishlist]