MTG Salvation

I really like most of this update, especially the reanimator push. I really do like green aggro, but I understand choosing to go in a rampy/midrangey direction with green, especially at this size.

I really disagree with cutting Wild Mongrel. It beats hard, dodges most some black removal, and supports graveyard strategies. I'd miss it.

I think Overrun really does make the cut at this size, especially with your token support. I still like it more than Rude Awakening.

I'd keep Powder Keg, too. It's really good against the token strategy you are pushing.

Cheers,
rant

Must be nice to have a big cube so you can add all that cool stuff. I like what you're doing with this update, hopefully it works out well for you. Should make for some awesome stories.

Niv-Mizzet never panned out for me, his mana cost is brutal and he just doesn't do enough to justify getting him into play. Plus he's got Visara syndrome, either you swing with your flying beater or use your flying beaters ability but not both. Combining him with wheels is pretty slick but if you compare it with some of the other 2 card "combos" that use 2 expensive cards it's really not that impressive. If you're set on having a dragon in that slot I think Spellbound Dragon would pan out a little better. He's not the most impressive card since you'll be stuck choosing to pump him or loot land away but your curve is fairly high and you have a number of high cc cards you can pitch to him for a big effect plus he's much more forgiving on the mana. Personally though I'd just run Gelectrode or Jilt.

Oh, man. That's funny, I'm actually shrinking my cube and you're expanding yours in the same update. We're on the same elevator going in different directions.

I see a lot of good stuff coming in with the update, but there's also stuff I wouldn't play and some weird cuts.

Pros:
- Rakdos Guildmage. Surprisingly good and helps Gravecrawler.
- Stonecloaker. Graveyard hate on an efficient body with several upsides.
- including all the AVC cards I was planning to add, plus a couple more I wasn't.
- Life from the Loam/Crucible. Somewhat combo-centric cards, but since they're comboing with stuff that's already good in any deck (lands) unlike Rector, they're a great decision.
- balancing allied lands vs enemy lands.
- multicolor additions. I use almost all of these except the Mimeoplasm, and I could see including him on fun factor alone.

Cons:
- Iona. I ran her for a while as reanimator support. The nine mana in her CC makes her uncastable except in reanimator. I would rather have Avacyn since she's cheaper to cast. I enjoy pushing reanimator, but I also want my fatties to have a tiny bit of playability in case the reanimation plan doesn't work out.
- Lotus Bloom. I ran this card for a while, and it was hard to use even when my cube was slower. If you really push high-CC stuff like Iona and big clunky Rector enchantments then sure, but I don't like it otherwise.
- Academy Rector. Unless you use an expansion system of draft where you control which cards are selected to be randomized in your packs, two-card combos are a crapshoot in bigger cubes.
- Wild Mongrel. At 800 cards, there's no way he should be getting cut, even with the loss of green aggro. He's still an amazing midrange/reanimation support guy.
- Powder Keg. Still kills manlands and provides excellent colorless removal for the decks that struggle without it.
- Slith Firewalker. Bad, even in a slower cube. I don't think this is what red aggro needs.
- Overrun. I definitely think cutting this is a mistake. Unlike Firewalker, this is the kind of card aggro decks need. If you're set on reducing aggro in green, consider swapping the Firewalker out for Burn at the Stake instead. It's essentially a red Overrun.
- Aeon Chronicler. Way too slow and mana-intensive. I'd rather run Mind Spring or Blue Sun's Zenith if you're really set on an XCC draw spell, but I think with both Ingenuity and Opportunity coming in, you shouldn't need it.

This is the update I've been waiting for. I wanted to see how big of a splash you were going to make with AVR but wow... I did not expect a cannonball which would clear out the kiddie pool. Here are my thoughts:

White: I like all the AVR cards you're adding - I want to try Entreat the Angels and it might be something to keep my eye on. With 720 I thought adding Terminus would be overkill, but now that you have an extra 90 cards having the 2 extra wrath effects should keep aggro well in check. I really like the Archon of Justice and Stonecloaker. I am sad to see Mentor of the Meek go, as this card gave white based aggro the little bit of reach which was needed in my cube.

Note: Need to run off to class - will finish this comment later.

Quote from PyreDream

- Academy Rector. Unless you use an expansion system of draft where you control which cards are selected to be randomized in your packs, two-card combos are a crapshoot in bigger cubes.

I can speak up in support for Academy Rector as I only cut her after I cut every bomb enchantment from my cube (might still be one idk). You really don't need bombs to make Rector solid you just need them to make Rector amazing. Getting a simple Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation is fine value and it lets you include a mini toolbox in your deck, similar to other narrow tutors like Stoneforge Mystic and Ranger of Eos. When you DO have a bomb like Debtor's Knell in your deck this creature becomes a serious pain to deal with, sometimes they will even have to actively protect your Rector just so it doesn't die. If your opponent doesn't know what you have in your deck it puts them in a bind as well and it's very difficult to gauge the importance they should place on not killing Rector. Additionally this cube is for 8 man drafts so even without seeding specific cards in you should regularly be seeing enough support for the card. If anything this is one of the non AVR cards I'm most excited to see being included and with the direction this cube is currently heading I think it's going to work out very nicely.

I haven't been this inspired by a cube update since Erwin did his updates on The Magic Show. I've been making some changes in my list and this inspires me to push even harder.

I don't like losing Tezzeret, the Seeker. But if you can't get the artifact.dec to work at this level, I guess he's expendable. If he stayed, I'd likely keep Powder Keg along with him (but I understand cutting them together).

I like Reflecting Pool too, but it's nothing spectacular. In cubes that run a TON of fixing, this card is really good. But in the average list, it's only okay.

Wild Mongrel, on the other hand, does so much for so many archetypes. He's an auto-include in any deck with any graveyard shenanigans. Adding in Crucible and Life From the Loam in the same update is awesome, but cutting enablers hurts those decks more than adding in the meat and potatoes does. And Mongrel is a key enabler. He's also a splashable bear that can scale to destroy your opponent's ability to make correct combat decisions, he can trade with creatures that are far above his investment, and he's terror-proof. There's nothing more that I could ever want from a 2cc creature, and he's one of the very best in the cube.

The rest of the update looks pretty good. I don't like the idea of cutting all the green aggro cards and turning green into a 1-trick pony, but that's more of a design disagreement than individual card choices. I think there's more than enough cuttable stuff to keep the cube at 720, but it's cool to have an 810 cube in the MTGS pool.

Quote from Darkmindtone

BLUE:
+Aeon Chronicler: I have always been a fan of this card, both the art and the card itself. It's not the fastest card in the world, but it can certainly pull a game in it's controllers favor and has some sweet interactions with cards like Upheaval.
+Body Double: One of the numerous reanimation effects being added to add more variety to drafts. Plus, now people can pull off the old-school standard Reveillark combo kill!

RED:
+Devastating Dreams: This is a card to help push the big mana "blow-up-the-world" decks fueled by cards like Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Destructive Force, and now Death Cloud and this card. These additionally make cards like Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam much better as well and work well with cards already in the cube like Knight of the Reliquary and Countryside Crusher.
+Sneak Attack: Man-o-man am I happy to finally get around to getting this into the cube. I can't wait to draft decks with this and Show and Tell to pull off all sorts of sweet plays.
+Form of the Dragon: This is a card to combo with Academy Rector and Show and Tell as well as being a fine card to ramp into for something like RG or Rx Wildfire decks. This may end up being too much of a gamble or unnecessary to enable Rector, but I'm excited to at least give it another shot after many years but this time with much better support.

COLORLESS:
+Epochrasite: Another constructed buddy of mine making a return. Players in my group really like this card and I'm looking forward to using it in Birthing Pod chains in the future.

I'm very curious about how these cards work out for you. When you have had the time to test 'em I will be happy to hear what you think. I've tried several of them in the past, but it's so long ago that it might have changed their usability.

BLACK:
+Corpse Dance: Both additional graveyard support and a card that many of my players liked when I had it in my cube in years past. It has some interesting interactions it can pull off (nice turn 3 hasted Ulamog comin' at ya!) that I hope will keep things interesting.

I'm currently about to cut this card for beeing the only card that cares about GY-order, and that just annoys me. It's good enough though.


GREEN RAMP
I just want to know if you and your playgroup like this change as much as my playgroup enjoy it. My players have expressed a lot of happiness with this change and are fighting like mad over green now.

Quote from PyreDream »

- Academy Rector. Unless you use an expansion system of draft where you control which cards are selected to be randomized in your packs, two-card combos are a crapshoot in bigger cubes.

She's a good utility creature when being paired with any number of enchantments. She doesn't have to be combined with FotD, Bargain or Moat to be good. Using her to get an Oblivion Ring, Seal of Cleansing or Faith's Fetters is just fine.

Quote from rantipole

I really like most of this update, especially the reanimator push. I really do like green aggro, but I understand choosing to go in a rampy/midrangey direction with green, especially at this size.

I really disagree with cutting Wild Mongrel. It beats hard, dodges most some black removal, and supports graveyard strategies. I'd miss it.

I think Overrun really does make the cut at this size, especially with your token support. I still like it more than Rude Awakening.

I'd keep Powder Keg, too. It's really good against the token strategy you are pushing.

Cheers,
rant

Thanks! I've been tinkering around with different cuts and adds in the last few days and figured out ways to keep both Mongrel and Overrun in the list since I do agree that both should be in there. Krosan Tusker (it's just not a card I'm a fan of) and not adding Daybreak Ranger were what I chose to keep out of the list instead.

Quote from Donald »

Must be nice to have a big cube so you can add all that cool stuff. I like what you're doing with this update, hopefully it works out well for you. Should make for some awesome stories.

Niv-Mizzet never panned out for me, his mana cost is brutal and he just doesn't do enough to justify getting him into play. Plus he's got Visara syndrome, either you swing with your flying beater or use your flying beaters ability but not both. Combining him with wheels is pretty slick but if you compare it with some of the other 2 card "combos" that use 2 expensive cards it's really not that impressive. If you're set on having a dragon in that slot I think Spellbound Dragon would pan out a little better. He's not the most impressive card since you'll be stuck choosing to pump him or loot land away but your curve is fairly high and you have a number of high cc cards you can pitch to him for a big effect plus he's much more forgiving on the mana. Personally though I'd just run Gelectrode or Jilt.

I hope that it works out as well! It's going to be quite the shock to the system at least with roughly 50ish cards leaving and nearly 100 cards coming in. I agree with you on Niv-Mizzet...I'm not very much a fan of him for all of the reasons you mentioned. I think instead I'm gonna try Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (I don't have balanced Gold) as she looks very promising and exciting to me. UR just has the worst gold cards...:(

Quote from PyreDream »

Oh, man. That's funny, I'm actually shrinking my cube and you're expanding yours in the same update. We're on the same elevator going in different directions.

I see a lot of good stuff coming in with the update, but there's also stuff I wouldn't play and some weird cuts.

Pros:
- Rakdos Guildmage. Surprisingly good and helps Gravecrawler.
- Stonecloaker. Graveyard hate on an efficient body with several upsides.
- including all the AVC cards I was planning to add, plus a couple more I wasn't.
- Life from the Loam/Crucible. Somewhat combo-centric cards, but since they're comboing with stuff that's already good in any deck (lands) unlike Rector, they're a great decision.
- balancing allied lands vs enemy lands.
- multicolor additions. I use almost all of these except the Mimeoplasm, and I could see including him on fun factor alone.

Cons:
- Iona. I ran her for a while as reanimator support. The nine mana in her CC makes her uncastable except in reanimator. I would rather have Avacyn since she's cheaper to cast. I enjoy pushing reanimator, but I also want my fatties to have a tiny bit of playability in case the reanimation plan doesn't work out.
- Lotus Bloom. I ran this card for a while, and it was hard to use even when my cube was slower. If you really push high-CC stuff like Iona and big clunky Rector enchantments then sure, but I don't like it otherwise.
- Academy Rector. Unless you use an expansion system of draft where you control which cards are selected to be randomized in your packs, two-card combos are a crapshoot in bigger cubes.
- Wild Mongrel. At 800 cards, there's no way he should be getting cut, even with the loss of green aggro. He's still an amazing midrange/reanimation support guy.
- Powder Keg. Still kills manlands and provides excellent colorless removal for the decks that struggle without it.
- Slith Firewalker. Bad, even in a slower cube. I don't think this is what red aggro needs.
- Overrun. I definitely think cutting this is a mistake. Unlike Firewalker, this is the kind of card aggro decks need. If you're set on reducing aggro in green, consider swapping the Firewalker out for Burn at the Stake instead. It's essentially a red Overrun.
- Aeon Chronicler. Way too slow and mana-intensive. I'd rather run Mind Spring or Blue Sun's Zenith if you're really set on an XCC draw spell, but I think with both Ingenuity and Opportunity coming in, you shouldn't need it.

I'm glad to hear about your positive experiences with the Guildmage as well. He was sweet when I used to run him but BR is so tight that he got nudged out over time somehow. As for the Cons:

*Iona: This might turn out to be a flop, but I'm doing everything I can to make sure the reanimator/sneak attack/show and tell/ramp archetypes are properly supported when I fire off the first drafts with this package Wed. If it proves too awkward and/or unnecessary then it will certainly get the boot quickly. I wish to at least give it the benefit of the doubt.

*Lotus Bloom: I honestly have no expectations good or bad about this card...I just want to see how it works. If it turns out to be a flop I have no problem swapping it out for something that works.

*Academy Rector: This card is very exciting to me. It's not so much that I want specific two-card combos, but that i want a bunch of cards that have nice interactions with each other. I don't expect it to be too difficult to get this card to work as intended, but I guess we'll find out soon.

*Wild Mongrel: Agreed, and I will be keeping it in.

*Slith Firewalker: I think I agree here...I'll keep Wardriver in for now until I can think of something better (which should be too hard since there are always red cards I'm interested in testing).

*Overrun: Agreed again, and this will be staying as I really like it in the token decks.

*Aeon Chronicler: I think I agree with you here as well...for now I think I'm just going to keep Tezzeret in and try to figure out a way to squeeze Metalworker and Master Transmuter (and maybe something like Blightsteel Colossus to push the artifact deck a little more...not sure yet and will be thinking about it a bit more.

Thanks for the comments/suggestions!

Quote from Fidelis »

This is the update I've been waiting for. I wanted to see how big of a splash you were going to make with AVR but wow... I did not expect a cannonball which would clear out the kiddie pool. Here are my thoughts:

White: I like all the AVR cards you're adding - I want to try Entreat the Angels and it might be something to keep my eye on. With 720 I thought adding Terminus would be overkill, but now that you have an extra 90 cards having the 2 extra wrath effects should keep aggro well in check. I really like the Archon of Justice and Stonecloaker. I am sad to see Mentor of the Meek go, as this card gave white based aggro the little bit of reach which was needed in my cube.

Note: Need to run off to class - will finish this comment later.

Thanks for the kind words! It's possible that adding another Wrath to your 720 might be pushing it. I like it more than Austere Command and Akroma's Vengeance, but I might be in the minority on that. There are certainly a few players here who like Mentor a good amount so it's possible I can figure out a way to keep him in...I'll ask the players on Wed. I'll let you know how Entreat plays out when I get a copy this weekend (hopefully I can fire a few cube drafts after the release event on Sat to get some games in with the cards in the new set).

Quote from Usman »

I haven't been this inspired by a cube update since Erwin did his updates on The Magic Show. I've been making some changes in my list and this inspires me to push even harder.

This comment is greatly appreciated Usman! I'm sure there is a lot of work needed to do to really make sure things are properly pushed/balanced, but I'm very excited to at least be getting this in place to start testing.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

I don't like losing Tezzeret, the Seeker. But if you can't get the artifact.dec to work at this level, I guess he's expendable. If he stayed, I'd likely keep Powder Keg along with him (but I understand cutting them together).

I like Reflecting Pool too, but it's nothing spectacular. In cubes that run a TON of fixing, this card is really good. But in the average list, it's only okay.

Wild Mongrel, on the other hand, does so much for so many archetypes. He's an auto-include in any deck with any graveyard shenanigans. Adding in Crucible and Life From the Loam in the same update is awesome, but cutting enablers hurts those decks more than adding in the meat and potatoes does. And Mongrel is a key enabler. He's also a splashable bear that can scale to destroy your opponent's ability to make correct combat decisions, he can trade with creatures that are far above his investment, and he's terror-proof. There's nothing more that I could ever want from a 2cc creature, and he's one of the very best in the cube.

The rest of the update looks pretty good. I don't like the idea of cutting all the green aggro cards and turning green into a 1-trick pony, but that's more of a design disagreement than individual card choices. I think there's more than enough cuttable stuff to keep the cube at 720, but it's cool to have an 810 cube in the MTGS pool.

I think I'm going to give Tezzeret a little more time to shine since I might just need to "push" his type of deck a bit more before giving up on it (as mentioned above). Not too big on Keg still despite the applications against tokens...idk, the card is just never something people are happy to have in their decks despite it having some good uses.

Reflecting Pool has hindered me more than it's helped me on too many occasions for me to justify it's continued inclusion. It doesn't really fix my mana in a lot of situations, so I would rather use the spot on other cards that don't fix my mana but can take over a game like the RW and UR spell-lands.

Agreed on Mongrel...it was wrong to cut it with what I have going on with this update and as a result be better than it was prior.

I think green aggro is a fine route to go in a lot of cubes. Unfortunately, my players just weren't into it despite me keeping it in place for so long. Ramp should be very popular (it already is a heavily drafted archetype), so I think for this cube this should be a positive change.

Thanks for the comments/suggestions!

Quote from bondafong »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmindtone
BLUE:
+Aeon Chronicler: I have always been a fan of this card, both the art and the card itself. It's not the fastest card in the world, but it can certainly pull a game in it's controllers favor and has some sweet interactions with cards like Upheaval.
+Body Double: One of the numerous reanimation effects being added to add more variety to drafts. Plus, now people can pull off the old-school standard Reveillark combo kill!

RED:
+Devastating Dreams: This is a card to help push the big mana "blow-up-the-world" decks fueled by cards like Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Destructive Force, and now Death Cloud and this card. These additionally make cards like Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam much better as well and work well with cards already in the cube like Knight of the Reliquary and Countryside Crusher.
+Sneak Attack: Man-o-man am I happy to finally get around to getting this into the cube. I can't wait to draft decks with this and Show and Tell to pull off all sorts of sweet plays.
+Form of the Dragon: This is a card to combo with Academy Rector and Show and Tell as well as being a fine card to ramp into for something like RG or Rx Wildfire decks. This may end up being too much of a gamble or unnecessary to enable Rector, but I'm excited to at least give it another shot after many years but this time with much better support.

COLORLESS:
+Epochrasite: Another constructed buddy of mine making a return. Players in my group really like this card and I'm looking forward to using it in Birthing Pod chains in the future.
I'm very curious about how these cards work out for you. When you have had the time to test 'em I will be happy to hear what you think. I've tried several of them in the past, but it's so long ago that it might have changed their usability.

Quote:
BLACK:
+Corpse Dance: Both additional graveyard support and a card that many of my players liked when I had it in my cube in years past. It has some interesting interactions it can pull off (nice turn 3 hasted Ulamog comin' at ya!) that I hope will keep things interesting.
I'm currently about to cut this card for beeing the only card that cares about GY-order, and that just annoys me. It's good enough though.


GREEN RAMP
I just want to know if you and your playgroup like this change as much as my playgroup enjoy it. My players have expressed a lot of happiness with this change and are fighting like mad over green now.

I'll do my best to let people know how a lot of the more uncommon cards play out in the cube once this update is in place and drafted for a few weeks. I agree with you that Corpse Dance is a little awkward for that reason, but it's a card some players here enjoy playing with and it has some cool interactions that I am willing to deal with the inconvenience. We generally don't modify graveyard order anyways, so it should be fine. I'm glad to hear the ramp decks are working out really well there...I have a feeling they will do the same here!

As already mentioned, thanks everyone for the comments!

I'm glad to see you're keeping Mongrel and Overrun, although I'm not sure Krosan Tusker is the cut if you are increasing reanimation.

I have found that having super fatties is necessary to support reanimator and other creature-cheating strategies. You will be competing with other drafters for many of the support cards so having a good chance of picking up a couple of fatties as late picks is helpful.

I can really appreciate the thinking behind these changes. I'm glad that someone else is revisiting Sneak Attack: let's see who Sneak Attacks Griselbrand first!

Hi, Kenny. I'm going to list some questions I have as I look at your Cube. I'm looking at the updated list on the spreadsheet.

Do you prefer Avenger of Zendikar or Craterhoof Behemoth?

How good has Oust been?

Has Chandra, the Firebrand been good enough for you?

Has Apetite for Brains been good enough for you?

Do you ever feel Buried Alive is too narrow in your Cube?

Has Evasive Action been consistent enough?

Is Kozilek good enough without Channel in the Cube?

How would you rank Tidehollow Sculler, Gerard's Verdict, and Unburial Rites in terms of power and how often they are played?

I know it's been a long time since someone has posted on this thread. Thanks for answering any of these questions if you get a chance!

Quote from Patrunkenphat7

Do you prefer Avenger of Zendikar or Craterhoof Behemoth?

This is kind of a tough one since I like both of these guys quite a bit and they play REALLY well together (talk about two-card combos...). That being said, if I HAVE to choose just one it's going to be Craterhoof Behemoth as he just closes out games like no other card in the cube can.

How good has Oust been?

I'm still giving it a sort of trial run currently. I look at it kind of like Condemn in that it's primarily a midrange/control-oriented removal spell, but I wanted to give decks a healthy amount of cheap answers to fast fatties (those decks have become much more popular and powerful with my push towards cheating big creatures into play via things like Show and Tell, reanimation, and ramp). I'm not sure how long I'll keep it, and I'm trying to figure out if it or Harm's Way is more worthy of a slot in the cube since I won't likely continue to run both.

Has Chandra, the Firebrand been good enough for you?

She has been okay but not really fantastic. I like the possibilities she enables with things like Cruel Ultimatum and Sorin's Vengeance, but for the most part she's one of the weakest 4's in the cube and will not likely stay much longer unless her performance improves a lot in upcoming drafts.

Has Apetite for Brains been good enough for you?

I like all the one-mana pinpoint disruption spells even if cards like this and Despise are a bit below the really tier-one cards like Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek. While this is generally not intended as a turn one play so as to gain maximum value, it is certainly serviceable in that regard is you're going to be curving out the following few turns.

Do you ever feel Buried Alive is too narrow in your Cube?

Sometimes I do think that, but at the same time I've been having success with reanimator in recent drafts so I'm not really sure. I have trouble finding cuts in black and I've honestly thought about subbing in Pox in this spot to see what all the hype is about regarding that card and cube, but I haven't made a firm decision yet.

Has Evasive Action been consistent enough?

This is a fairly recent add to my own cube, though another cube that we sometimes play with around here has included it for a number of years. It hasn't seen the adoption I was hoping for yet, but I think it's just a matter of time before people start to pick up on it. When it has seen play it's been solid but not spectacular.

Is Kozilek good enough without Channel in the Cube?

I can finally give a non-wishy-washy answer! I will give a resounding "yes" to this question. I love having the Eldrazi in my cube and they are regular picks around here. While occasionally too slow against the fastest of decks, they are very, very powerful and fun to build around from my experience. I intentionally choose to exclude Channel because turn 3 fatties are fine in my opinion, but a turn earlier is a bit too hard to defend against. It might seem a bit arbitrary, but that's simply my mindset. Hence I include Grim Monolith but no Mana Vault.

How would you rank Tidehollow Sculler, Gerard's Verdict, and Unburial Rites in terms of power and how often they are played?

1. Unburial Rites (this card is sweet and has a lot of nice synergies here)
2. Gerrard's Verdict (an efficient 2-for-1...not exciting, but makes final 40's)
3. Tidehollow Sculler (a good tempo play, but not necessarily essential since both colors have many great plays at this spot in the curve)

I know it's been a long time since someone has posted on this thread. Thanks for answering any of these questions if you get a chance!

Thanks for the interest and questions!

Hey, just checking in on your Cube. It was the main inspiration for my 720-card unpowered Cube that I built in 2011, so just wondering how everything has been going, thanks!