I've been (mostly) lurking and (occasionally) asking noobish questions for a while now, but my cube is finally getting to a place where I'm not ashamed to post my list. This is still a rough draft and I consider maybe ~10% of the cards mere "placeholders." (My first priority is to get better mana-fixing to replace the shard lands and vivids.) But I appreciate any and all constructive criticism.
A little about my cube philosophy and practical matters:
1. I don't consider this a "budget" cube, however my will to purchase singles for more than $5 is low, and my will to purchase any card for more than $20 is, for the time being, nil. (Expect questions in the near future re: affordable replacements for expensive cube staples like Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, etc.)
2. Given the choice between a really powerful but boring card, and a slightly less powerful, but much more interesting and "interactive" card, I will always choose the latter.
3. Once it's evolved a little more, the cube may have one card for each of the shards/wedges, partly because they're fun and partly because we end up doing Winchester a lot, where decks often end up being just tricolor goodstuff.
This forum is awesome, and I want to give shouts out in particular to eidolon for his number-crunching, and wtwlf for his constant insights. My cube takes eidolon's as its main inspiration (except I play double-faced cards, morphs, etc.) and my attitude, with few exceptions, is "if wtwlf's playing it in his powered cube, I should probably give it serious consideration here, too." I've also taken inspiration from duckpants, tomchaps, Usman, Konfusius, rantipole, and others who I've probably forgotten. You're all the cat's pajamas.
Basic cube information:
Basic Information
Cube Size: 455
Breakdown: 60 per color, 59 artifacts/other, 91 multicolor.
Standard or Theme: Standard.
Snow Lands: No
Average Number of Players: 2-4.
How Often Drafted: 4 to 5 times a month, ranging from sealed to two-person Winchester, to four person 2HG draft.
Card Selection
Proxies: No.
Powered: No.
Portal: Not at this time.
"Un" Cards: No.
Banned Cards for Power-Level: Balance. Mind Twist. Sol Ring. I could write 1000 words about why we recently pulled Balance out of the cube. Don't get me started...
Banned Cards for Time Constraints: No.
Banned Cards for "fun" factor: No.
Functional Reprints: No. I feel that including these goes against the spirit of a true highlander format. So I include Cultivate but not Kodama's Reach, for instance. I suppose this leads to a slightly weaker card pool but more variance as well, and that's a tradeoff I'm happy with. (Terramorphic Expanse will be replaced soon.)
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Sideboards?: Does this question mean, "Do you include sideboard-only cards such as Deathmark?" If so, then no.
Color Balance: Yes.
Gold Balance: Yes, however I run a handful of tricolor cards, and with those I don't bother to balance.
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: I count split and kicker as gold because those cards aren't great unless you're playing both colors. But I've recently decided to run hybrid cards within colors where they fit, because it makes no sense to run these cards, which are in fact easier to cast than most mono-colored spells, within my gold section -- which is otherwise devoted to difficult-to-cast cards. Therefore I'm counting Dryad Militant in green, for example.
Color Triggers as Gold: Not sure what this means...
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No
Yo, Erg Raiders were beastly, they deserve their placeholder status. One of my first good Constructed decks packed Erg Raiders, Black Knight, Skittering Skirge, Carnophage, Hymns, Duress and Diabolic Edicts.
Yo, Erg Raiders were beastly, they deserve their placeholder status. One of my first good Constructed decks packed Erg Raiders, Black Knight, Skittering Skirge, Carnophage, Hymns, Duress and Diabolic Edicts.
Your deck sounds boss. It actually brings to mind Hatred, a card I'm somewhat surprised not to see on more cube lists even though I know it can lead to 2 for 1 blowouts...
Anyways, I went 3-0 in my AVR draft tonight, ripping an Avacyn that I didn't play in pack 3. But she enabled some advantageous trades for the cube. Needless to say, I don't think these substitutions will be too controversial.
Out ------> In
Sengir Vampire -----> Bloodgift Demon. Not sure I love the demon yet, but it's better in every way than old Sengir. Better body, much more relevant ability. Still, I'm sad to see some old-school goodness leave the cube. :'(
Illusionary Forces ------> Dungeon Geists. The forces are just not very good, and I don't support "blueggro" anyhow. I wanted to cut a noncreature spell here, as my creature count in blue is low even by blue standards, but this replacement just seems so sensible.
Sheoldred, Whispering One --------> Grave Titan. Sheoldred is a bit of a pet card, but I think Rune-Scarred Demon is better overall, since it immediately "replaces itself" with your best (or second-best) card, and one of the 5BB finishers has to go. Also its evasion will be useful more often than Sheoldred's. But I'm not totally certain here... Tell me if you disagree.
Artillerize-----> Hellrider. There are some creatures in my red 3CC section begging to be cut, but I didn't want to raise the overall casting cost. Also I think my 4CC section is looking mighty healthy right now. Finally I thought of going for Mr. Flameblast Dragon. He fails the Terminate/Vindicate test pretty hard, but if you attack once, their best creature/planeswalker is probably dead. So I went with a spell at the same mana cost. Artillerize just compares pretty unfavorably with Reckless Abandon at pushing through extra damage, despite the instant speed. For four mana I want to play another threat, and Hellrider is it.
Updating OP.
Edit: Also cutting for Melt Terrain (the homeless man's Molten Rain) for Bonfire of the Damned. I know miracles can be problematic, but I think this card is pretty decent even in its non-miracle form.
Got rid of some inefficient burn, a threaten effect (to be replaced soon by Zealous Conscripts), and a creature that failed the Terminate test pretty badly; added more efficient burn and one of red's best creatures in SGC.
If you support the artifact.deck, Tolarian Academy is insanely powerful. If you don't, it's not so hot. I will be in my new 450 list, and I'll be happy to have it back.
My playgroup and I have an unnatural love for Zuran Orb, a card that will be coming back when I go to 450. Much to the chagrin of the MTGS community, that hates the card with all the fiery passion of hell. I can't wait to play it again. I like it more than Sigil and Machete, and more than Razormane and Bonehoard even.
My playgroup and I have an unnatural love for Zuran Orb, a card that will be coming back when I go to 450. Much to the chagrin of the MTGS community, that hates the card with all the fiery passion of hell. I can't wait to play it again.
I only realized the hate for Zuran Orb the other day when eidolon posted stats and I was one of like 14 cubes that run it.
I'm surprised... I've been on both sides of the table when Orb made the game-winning difference.
@wtwlf: I'm sad to see Tolarian go, too, but as you've said elsewhere, artifact.dec isn't nearly as viable an archetype in an unpowered cube, and I don't presently have copies of Tezz 1 or 2 around either. I may try to make it viable in the future, as I have fond memories of Urza block Tinker shenanigans. Adding Zuran Orb back in for further playtesting. I realized I'm still running many worse colorless spells (see below).
@eidolon: Can you say a little re: your opinion on Mist Raven and Negate? He may have been being hyperbolic, but wtwlf argued in the [SCD] Despise thread I created that "Duress hits like 95% of the best cards in the cube"; according to that logic, Negate is a 1U hard counter to 95% of the best cards in cube. I'm particularly interested in your evaluation of the card compared to Arcane Denial, which was singled out for some hate in the recent Andy Cooperfauss article on CFB. I'm trying to hit a critical density of one- and two-mana counterspells in my blue section without Mana Drain at hand. Would you include, for instance, Spell Pierce before Negate? Daze?
As for Mist Raven, I guess my question is why Æther Adept is a snap include, but not this guy. The UU can be harder to come by on turn three than turn four, and you get evasion on the body. Somebody else at Channel Fireball said Mist Raven is the best common in AVR limited -- sure, not enough to necessarily qualify something for cube inclusion, but still food for thought. Plus "curving" Man-o'-War/Adept turn into Mist Raven turn four just seems like such great tempo.
With that said, here are the changes to green:
GGGG
Symbiosis out for Vines of Vastwood. I like Symbiosis but the lack of an "up to" before "two target creatures" can be randomly bad, and Vines will save your dude from anything, not just combat/burn.
Slice in Twain out for Treetop Village. For 2GG I want to be playing a threat, not an expensive Naturalize, however I'll have to keep track of how many disenchant effects I have in green, since it's looking a little low. (I don't run Viridian Shaman because it's a functional reprint of Uktabi Orangutan.)
Giant Growth out for Edge of Autumn. Ramp that cycles late game > vanilla combat trick, despite nostalgia.
...and I'm hoping you can weigh in on a debate I'm having with my friend: Utopia Sprawl or Abundant Growth? US is ramp + fixing, while AG is fixing + cantrip. I prefer US because I think ramp is the most important thing green does; he prefers AG because the cantrip is a sort of insurance policy against being 2 for 1'ed by land destruction and US can only enchant a forest (occasionally relevant). Keeping both in for the time being and cutting Arachnus Web, which doesn't hit a lot of the creatures you want it to, can be randomly "disenchanted" by Reckless Charge, equipment, etc.
Colorless/Multicolor changes:
Zuran Orb back in for Karn, Silver Golem. The old creature version of Karn is a vanilla 4/4 for 5 nine times out of ten.
Metalworker out for Isolated Chapel. Just ripped this from a pack. Not the ideal Orzhov land, but it's what I've got for now. No artifact.dec support for now, so no MW.
Voltaic Key out for Pristine Talisman. The key is too narrow for cube, especially without support for artifect.dec. The talisman may be one mana-fact too many, but it can be good in control.
Also just ripped a Gravecrawler. Putting him in for Throat Slitter. Ninjutsu is fun but it seems too situational.
Replacing Shivan Raptor with Fervent Cathar, which I think is an underrated little gem, and will push through more damage than the raptor on average, without echo.
Aaaaand last but not least: can I get you to weigh in on our Sheoldred, Whispering One vs. Rune-Scarred Demon debate, mentioned above? Why is Sheoldred run in almost four times as many cubes? RSD seems like a better attacker, and immediately replaces himself with the best card left in your deck. Is it just that Sheoldred's upside is so high the longer she stays on the battlefield, and that black, high toughness creatures are very difficult to remove anyways? (But then getting Sheoldred Control Magic'ed is much worse than the same happening to RSD, since his effect happens only when he ETB...)
Edit: Ugh, somehow I got down to 447. Added four enemy color guild cards as placeholders (Memory's Journey, Rally the Peasants, Deadly Allure, Desperate Ravings) and subtracted Juggernaut. I have way too many four-drop artifact creatures, and Jug just doesn't cut it these days. Plus that puts me at exactly 60 colorless cards. OP has been completely updated and deckstats link is accurate.
@eidolon: Would you be so kind as to do your data mining thing and tell me about my uncommon cards, mana curve, etc.? Thanks!
I like everything you are doing. Yes, the BCS of Sheoldred is so sick she gets the nod over the Demon. Also, the Demon seems weak in the era of the Titans. I think it's a fine creature for budget cubes or cubes that are in the process of upgrading, but Sheoldred is better. That said, I'd still use other finishers/fatties over both of these, such as Massacre Wurm, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Griselbrand, Tombstalker, and especially Grave Titan.
The Abundant Growth is an interesting card because it does something relatively unique for cubes. It provides +1 card instead of the +1 mana you generally want out of these ramp spells. I think it's a trap for new cube managers though. Mana is a more valuable resource than cards in the early game. And the main role of these ramp spells is to accelerate your early game and put you in mid-game or late-game territory before your opponent.
I cut Remove Soul for Negate. Would you run that over Spell Pierce, according to the logic that blue has trouble dealing with creatures? Keep in mind I'm already running Exclude.
Metalworker >Zuran Orb > Karn, Silver Golem
I know Metalworker is better in a vacuum, but he's weak in the context of my cube -- almost always strictly worse than Palladium Myr. Once I'm able to assemble more pieces of the artifact deck I would consider running him again. I'll probably cut Zuran Orb soon too, since I'm not yet running many of the cards it synergizes well with: Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, Knight of the Reliquary...
We're adding Sheoldred back in for Rune-Scarred, and Abundant Growth will come out soon for Arbor Elf.
Memory's Journey ----> Lingering Souls. Cutting a boring placeholder for the most busted card in a long while, since Orzhov isn't at eight yet either.
Lim-Dul's Vault ----> Watery Grave. LDV is kind of a fun old card, but it doesn't even draw you one. Happy to have my first shockland! Mana-fixing is looking great in UB now. Can't wait to get better in other colors so I can start exiling the tri-lands.
Surreal Memoir ----> Archwing Dragon. I think this guy is a little underrated. Evasive, repeatable damage that avoids sorcery speed removal? Better by far than SM, which would be a lot better at 2R.
Mongrel Pack ----> Wolfir Avenger. Felt that I needed to cut a four-drop for a three-drop for curve reasons, and I think this one is the weakest. I wish the "during combat" clause weren't in there, as I like me some tokens.
Elite Inquisitor ----> Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I'm not positive this is the cut, since the Loyal Cathar lacks first strike and the dude it becomes when it dies isn't terribly exciting.
Rain of Tears ----> Griselbrand. Yeah, I need to start including more support for reanimator. But I can't not run this guy. I mean, he's just obscene! Plus RoT isn't hard to lose, since I don't think LD is really a viable theme in black.
It looks like you are looking at LDV more as an Impulse effect, but in reality it is a Vampiric Tutor, since you get to search for any card in your deck for an average of <2.5 life and set up the next 4 draws in the best order as well. If you have enough life (and the number of cards in your deck is not dividable by 5), you can even tutor up any 2 cards you want.
As usual, an edifying perspective! But I think I prefer the flashbackable, reanimation-enabling Forbidden Alchemy, and I'm going to put it in soon for either the signet or the talisman.
Everybody help me convince my friend that Onyx Mage needs to be cut before Dauthi Slayer! Also, does anybody think there's a cut that could/should be made in red for Relentless Assault?
I think that they are about equally powerful. Slayer has the advantage of always being unblockable, while the Mage only discourages blocking (with superior creatures), but isn't restricted to one creature and also has defensive applications, not to mention the interaction with pingers. The easier casting cost is also a big plus for Onyx Mage. Actually between these two, I would tend towards keeping the Mage.
Interesting... For me the essence of the difference is that Slayer is an aggro card, and Onyx isn't really. I see deathtouch as an ability that shines most on defensive weenies like Winged Coatl, Ambush Viper, Typhoid Rats, or Thornweald Archer. Or on something like Ohran Viper, where it discourages them from blocking, and in turn you get something. Onyx does have nice synergy with Cunning Sparkmage, Olivia Voldaren, and Spikeshot Elder (coming soon) but ultimately I think his ability is too mana-intensive to do much -- i.e. if you're spending mana on his ability early game then you aren't curving out with your guys. Then again, I suppose the point is that you can threaten the deathtouch without actually paying for it. Anybody else want to weigh in here?
All around good changes. I prefer Utopia Sprawl to Fertile Ground because it is cheaper. As a blue finisher that costs a lot of mana my preferred one is Inkwell Leviathan because it is a great Tinker and reanimation target that can potentially be hard cast in some games.
Between Onyx Mage and Dauthi Slayer I am with eidolon232, I'd pick the Mage for the same reasons.
I cut Reflecting Pool as well, even though I play quite a lot of lands. The reason is that for some decks, you rather play an additional basic land than the pool. I think the pool is good in many-color good-stuff decks to help with the heavier color requirements, but is not needed in two color decks that I want to encourage.
2. Great changes! You're adding a lot of rock-solid cards with this update.
My beef:
-Cutting Keldon Vandals: You and I are on the same page regarding a lot of card opinions. So let me just say that I was totally with you on this one. was. I tried cutting this a while ago, but came to the conclusion that this is one of those cards that gets so much respect that you should just run it, even if it isn't your favorite. If this were my cube, I'd cut burn at the stake or ancient hydra for it.
-Cutting Ravenous Baboons: just like Keldon Vandals, maybe this guy should stick around until you acquire a card that really pushes it out. You're running a handful of fringe cards that could easily go for this guy.
-Cutting overrun: I'm still testing this card, but I think this is the best option for green finishing spells (aside from Plow Under). Since green is my favourite color, I've toyed around with it a lot. I've tried Briarhorn, Stunted Growth, Gaea's Revenge, Constant Mists, and probably a few others I can't think of. If this were my cube, I'd cut Invigorate without blinking an eye.
-Adding Hornet Queen, Pelakka Wurm, and Terastodon: that brings your green fatties to 1 6cc, 2 7cc (excluding tusker), and 1 8cc. I think that's 1 too much for a 450. If this were my cube, I'd cut Terastodon.
I've been (mostly) lurking and (occasionally) asking noobish questions for a while now, but my cube is finally getting to a place where I'm not ashamed to post my list. This is still a rough draft and I consider maybe ~10% of the cards mere "placeholders." (My first priority is to get better mana-fixing to replace the shard lands and vivids.) But I appreciate any and all constructive criticism.
A little about my cube philosophy and practical matters:
1. I don't consider this a "budget" cube, however my will to purchase singles for more than $5 is low, and my will to purchase any card for more than $20 is, for the time being, nil. (Expect questions in the near future re: affordable replacements for expensive cube staples like Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, etc.)
2. Given the choice between a really powerful but boring card, and a slightly less powerful, but much more interesting and "interactive" card, I will always choose the latter.
3. Once it's evolved a little more, the cube may have one card for each of the shards/wedges, partly because they're fun and partly because we end up doing Winchester a lot, where decks often end up being just tricolor goodstuff.
This forum is awesome, and I want to give shouts out in particular to eidolon for his number-crunching, and wtwlf for his constant insights. My cube takes eidolon's as its main inspiration (except I play double-faced cards, morphs, etc.) and my attitude, with few exceptions, is "if wtwlf's playing it in his powered cube, I should probably give it serious consideration here, too." I've also taken inspiration from duckpants, tomchaps, Usman, Konfusius, rantipole, and others who I've probably forgotten. You're all the cat's pajamas.
Basic cube information:
Cube Size: 455
Breakdown: 60 per color, 59 artifacts/other, 91 multicolor.
Standard or Theme: Standard.
Snow Lands: No
Average Number of Players: 2-4.
How Often Drafted: 4 to 5 times a month, ranging from sealed to two-person Winchester, to four person 2HG draft.
Card Selection
Proxies: No.
Powered: No.
Portal: Not at this time.
"Un" Cards: No.
Banned Cards for Power-Level: Balance. Mind Twist. Sol Ring. I could write 1000 words about why we recently pulled Balance out of the cube. Don't get me started...
Banned Cards for Time Constraints: No.
Banned Cards for "fun" factor: No.
Functional Reprints: No. I feel that including these goes against the spirit of a true highlander format. So I include Cultivate but not Kodama's Reach, for instance. I suppose this leads to a slightly weaker card pool but more variance as well, and that's a tradeoff I'm happy with. (Terramorphic Expanse will be replaced soon.)
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Sideboards?: Does this question mean, "Do you include sideboard-only cards such as Deathmark?" If so, then no.
Color Balance: Yes.
Gold Balance: Yes, however I run a handful of tricolor cards, and with those I don't bother to balance.
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: I count split and kicker as gold because those cards aren't great unless you're playing both colors. But I've recently decided to run hybrid cards within colors where they fit, because it makes no sense to run these cards, which are in fact easier to cast than most mono-colored spells, within my gold section -- which is otherwise devoted to difficult-to-cast cards. Therefore I'm counting Dryad Militant in green, for example.
Color Triggers as Gold: Not sure what this means...
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No
WWWW
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Figure of Destiny
1 Gideon's Lawkeeper
1 Icatian Javelineers
1 Mother of Runes
1 Steppe Lynx
1 Student of Warfare
//2 CC
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Alabaster Mage
1 Cloistered Youth
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Lone Missionary
1 Loyal Cathar
1 Nearheath Pilgrim
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Monk
1 Soltari Trooper
1 Stormfront Pegasus
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Wall of Omens
1 Youthful Knight
1 Blade Splicer
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Flickerwisp
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Spectral Procession
//4 CC
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Kor Sanctifiers
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Restoration Angel
//5 CC
1 Archon of Justice
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
//6 CC
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Sun Titan
//1 CC
1 Condemn
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Land Tax
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Pacifism
1 Revoke Existence
//3 CC
1 Arrest
1 Crib Swap
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Waylay
//4 CC
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Armageddon
1 Day of Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Parallax Wave
//5 CC
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Gideon Jura
//6 CC
1 Phyrexian Rebirth
1 Enclave Cryptologist
//2 CC
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Ludevic’s Test Subject
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Waterfront Bouncer
//3 CC
1 Æther Adept
1 Calcite Snapper
1 Fettergeist
1 Man-o'-War
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Serendib Efreet
1 Willbender
//4 CC
1 Dungeon Geists
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thieving Magpie
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
//5 CC
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Mulldrifter
1 Riftwing Cloudskate
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Draining Whelk
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
//1 CC
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Brainstorm
1 Force Spike
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Spell Pierce
//2 CC
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Impulse
1 Into the Roil
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Miscalculation
1 Narcolepsy
1 Remand
//3 CC
1 Capsize
1 Compulsive Research
1 Crystal Shard
1 Exclude
1 Frantic Search
1 Frost Breath
1 Jace Beleren
1 Propaganda
1 Tinker
1 Control Magic
1 Deep Analysis
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
//5 CC
1 Force of Will
1 Treachery
//6 CC
1 Time Spiral
1 Upheaval
//X CC
1 Condescend
//OTHER
1 Academy Ruins
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Carnophage
1 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Fume Spitter
1 Gravecrawler
1 Vampire Lacerator
//2 CC
1 Bloodghast
1 Dauthi Horror
1 Fledgling Djinn
1 Nantuko Shade
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Pack Rat
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Vampire Interloper
//3 CC
1 Bane of the Living
1 Bone Shredder
1 Dauthi Marauder
1 Geralf’s Messenger
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Liliana’s Specter
1 Phyrexian Rager
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Nekrataal
1 Skinrender
//5 CC
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Shriekmaw
//6+ CC
1 Grave Titan
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
//0CC
1 Snuff Out
//1 CC
1 Dark Ritual
1 Duress
1 Despise
1 Reanimate
1 Tragic Slip
1 Unearth
//2 CC
1 Animate Dead
1 Chainer’s Edict
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Exhume
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Smallpox
1 Choking Sands
1 Necromancy
1 Stupor
//4 CC
1 Barter in Blood
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Diabolic Servitude
//5 CC
1 Living Death
//6 CC
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
//X CC
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Profane Command
1 Goblin Guide
1 Greater Gargadon
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Jackal Pup
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Rakdos Cackler
1 Spikeshot Elder
1 Stromkirk Noble
//2 CC
1 Ash Zealot
1 Ember Hauler
1 Fireslinger
1 Gore-House Chainwalker
1 Hellspark Elemental
1 Keldon Marauders
1 Lightning Mauler
1 Plated Geopede
1 Rakdos Shred-Freak
1 Stormblood Berserker
//3 CC
1 Blistering Firecat
1 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Goblin Ruinblaster
1 Hell's Thunder
1 Manic Vandal
1 Zo-Zu the Punisher
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Hellrider
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
1 Keldon Champion
//5 CC
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Zealous Conscripts
//6 CC
1 Crater Hellion
1 Inferno Titan
//0 CC
1 Fireblast
//1 CC
1 Burst Lightning
1 Faithless Looting
1 Firebolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Reckless Charge
//2 CC
1 Arc Trail
1 Incinerate
1 Magma Jet
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Pyroclasm
1 Searing Blaze
1 Shrine of Burning Rage
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Arc Lightning
1 Brimstone Volley
1 Char
1 Molten Rain
1 Pillage
1 Slagstorm
1 Stone Rain
//4 CC
1 Koth of the Hammer
//5 CC
1 Chandra Nalaar
//6 CC
1 Wildfire
//X CC
1 Devil's Play
1 Earthquake
1 Arbor Elf
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Militant
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Llanowar Elves
//2 CC
1 Devoted Druid
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Mire Boa
1 River Boa
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Skinshifter
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Mongrel
//3 CC
1 Call of the Herd
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nantuko Vigilante
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Wolfir Avenger
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Blastoderm
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Deadbridge Goliath
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Phantom Centaur
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
//5 CC
1 Acidic Slime
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Thornling
1 Vorapede
1 Wolfir Silverheart
//6 CC
1 Primeval Titan
//7 CC
1 Hornet Queen
1 Pelakka Wurm
//8 CC
1 Terastodon
//0 CC
1 Invigorate
//1 CC
1 Rancor
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Channel
1 Edge of Autumn
1 Regrowth
//3 CC
1 Birthing Pod
1 Cultivate
1 Harrow
1 Krosan Tusker
//4 CC
1 Bramblecrush
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
//5 CC
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Plow Under
//X CC
1 Genesis Wave
1 Green Sun's Zenith
//OTHER
1 Treetop Village
1 Detention Sphere
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wall of Denial
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
//UB
1 Dimir Signet
1 Psychatog
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Underground River
1 Watery Grave
//UG
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Mystic Snake
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Trygon Predator
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Yavimaya Coast
//UR
1 Electrolyze
1 Fire // Ice
1 Izzet Charm
1 Prophetic Bolt
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Izzet Signet
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Lingering Souls
1 Mortify
1 Unburial Rites
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Marsh Flats
//BR
1 Blightning
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Shambling Remains
1 Terminate
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Sulfurous Springs
//BG
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Putrefy
1 Putrid Leech
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Verdant Catacombs
//WR
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Brion Stoutarm
1 Lightning Helix
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Arid Mesa
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Boros Garrison
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Armada Wurm
1 Loam Lion
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Temple Garden
//GR
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Stormbind
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Raging Ravine
1 Rootbound Crag
//OTHER
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Grand Coliseum
1 Lightning Angel
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Wild Nacatl
1 Hex Parasite
1 Mortarpod
1 Perilous Myr
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Spined Thopter
//3 CC
1 Palladium Myr
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
//4 CC
1 Bonehoard
1 Galvanic Juggernaut
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Masticore
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Solemn Simulacrum
//5 CC
1 Precursor Golem
1 Razormane Masticore
//6 CC
1 Wurmcoil Engine
//7 CC
1 Myr Battlesphere
//8 CC
1 Sundering Titan
//EQUIPMENT
1 Bonesplitter
1 Grafted Wargear
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Trusty Machete
1 Black Vise
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Dismember
//2 CC
1 Ankh of Mishra
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Scroll Rack
1 Winter Orb
//3 CC
1 Crystal Ball
1 Jinxed Choker
1 Mimic Vat
1 Puppet Strings
1 Ring of Gix
1 Tumble Magnet
//4 CC
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Smokestack
//5 CC
1 Memory Jar
//6+ CC
1 Karn Liberated
1 Mindslaver
//MANA
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Coalition Relic
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Mind Stone
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Dust Bowl
1 Strip Mine
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
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Your deck sounds boss. It actually brings to mind Hatred, a card I'm somewhat surprised not to see on more cube lists even though I know it can lead to 2 for 1 blowouts...
Anyways, I went 3-0 in my AVR draft tonight, ripping an Avacyn that I didn't play in pack 3. But she enabled some advantageous trades for the cube. Needless to say, I don't think these substitutions will be too controversial.
Out ------> In
Sengir Vampire -----> Bloodgift Demon. Not sure I love the demon yet, but it's better in every way than old Sengir. Better body, much more relevant ability. Still, I'm sad to see some old-school goodness leave the cube. :'(
Illusionary Forces ------> Dungeon Geists. The forces are just not very good, and I don't support "blueggro" anyhow. I wanted to cut a noncreature spell here, as my creature count in blue is low even by blue standards, but this replacement just seems so sensible.
Sheoldred, Whispering One --------> Grave Titan. Sheoldred is a bit of a pet card, but I think Rune-Scarred Demon is better overall, since it immediately "replaces itself" with your best (or second-best) card, and one of the 5BB finishers has to go. Also its evasion will be useful more often than Sheoldred's. But I'm not totally certain here... Tell me if you disagree.
Artillerize-----> Hellrider. There are some creatures in my red 3CC section begging to be cut, but I didn't want to raise the overall casting cost. Also I think my 4CC section is looking mighty healthy right now. Finally I thought of going for Mr. Flameblast Dragon. He fails the Terminate/Vindicate test pretty hard, but if you attack once, their best creature/planeswalker is probably dead. So I went with a spell at the same mana cost. Artillerize just compares pretty unfavorably with Reckless Abandon at pushing through extra damage, despite the instant speed. For four mana I want to play another threat, and Hellrider is it.
Updating OP.
Edit: Also cutting for Melt Terrain (the homeless man's Molten Rain) for Bonfire of the Damned. I know miracles can be problematic, but I think this card is pretty decent even in its non-miracle form.
Fissure ----> Blasphemous Act. Both would only be played in some kind of R/x control deck, and Act deals with several threats at once.
Vampire Outcasts ----> Geralf's Messenger. VO were our least exciting black four drop.
Wild Dogs ----> Abundant Growth. No more greengro here.
Pouncing Jaguar ----> Ulvenwald Tracker. Testing here.
Spider Spawning ----> Garruk Relentless. Forgot I had a Garruk lying around. Lolz.
All changes in OUT ----> IN format.
WWWW
---->
UUUU
---->
Upgrading a couple of counterspells, and removing some cute/narrow cards.
BBBB
---->
RRRR
---->
Got rid of some inefficient burn, a threaten effect (to be replaced soon by Zealous Conscripts), and a creature that failed the Terminate test pretty badly; added more efficient burn and one of red's best creatures in SGC.
XXXX
---->
- Bonehoard
- Phyrexian Revoker
- Myr Battlesphere
- Loxodon Warhammer
- Mimic Vat
- Razormane Masticore
- Trusty Machete
- Sigil of Distinction
- Viashino Slaughtermaster
(multicolor)Edit: More below.
If you support the artifact.deck, Tolarian Academy is insanely powerful. If you don't, it's not so hot. I will be in my new 450 list, and I'll be happy to have it back.
My playgroup and I have an unnatural love for Zuran Orb, a card that will be coming back when I go to 450.
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I only realized the hate for Zuran Orb the other day when eidolon posted stats and I was one of like 14 cubes that run it.
I'm surprised... I've been on both sides of the table when Orb made the game-winning difference.
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@wtwlf: I'm sad to see Tolarian go, too, but as you've said elsewhere, artifact.dec isn't nearly as viable an archetype in an unpowered cube, and I don't presently have copies of Tezz 1 or 2 around either. I may try to make it viable in the future, as I have fond memories of Urza block Tinker shenanigans. Adding Zuran Orb back in for further playtesting. I realized I'm still running many worse colorless spells (see below).
@eidolon: Can you say a little re: your opinion on Mist Raven and Negate? He may have been being hyperbolic, but wtwlf argued in the [SCD] Despise thread I created that "Duress hits like 95% of the best cards in the cube"; according to that logic, Negate is a 1U hard counter to 95% of the best cards in cube. I'm particularly interested in your evaluation of the card compared to Arcane Denial, which was singled out for some hate in the recent Andy Cooperfauss article on CFB. I'm trying to hit a critical density of one- and two-mana counterspells in my blue section without Mana Drain at hand. Would you include, for instance, Spell Pierce before Negate? Daze?
As for Mist Raven, I guess my question is why Æther Adept is a snap include, but not this guy. The UU can be harder to come by on turn three than turn four, and you get evasion on the body. Somebody else at Channel Fireball said Mist Raven is the best common in AVR limited -- sure, not enough to necessarily qualify something for cube inclusion, but still food for thought. Plus "curving" Man-o'-War/Adept turn into Mist Raven turn four just seems like such great tempo.
With that said, here are the changes to green:
Symbiosis out for Vines of Vastwood. I like Symbiosis but the lack of an "up to" before "two target creatures" can be randomly bad, and Vines will save your dude from anything, not just combat/burn.
Slice in Twain out for Treetop Village. For 2GG I want to be playing a threat, not an expensive Naturalize, however I'll have to keep track of how many disenchant effects I have in green, since it's looking a little low. (I don't run Viridian Shaman because it's a functional reprint of Uktabi Orangutan.)
Giant Growth out for Edge of Autumn. Ramp that cycles late game > vanilla combat trick, despite nostalgia.
Simian Grunts out for Briarpack Alpha, which is almost strictly better, but still a placeholder for Briarhorn or Wolfir Avenger or something like Chameleon Colossus.
Seeker of Skybreak out for Scorned Villager. She'll probably just end up a placeholder for Devoted Druid; we'll just have to see how often she flips.
...and I'm hoping you can weigh in on a debate I'm having with my friend: Utopia Sprawl or Abundant Growth? US is ramp + fixing, while AG is fixing + cantrip. I prefer US because I think ramp is the most important thing green does; he prefers AG because the cantrip is a sort of insurance policy against being 2 for 1'ed by land destruction and US can only enchant a forest (occasionally relevant). Keeping both in for the time being and cutting Arachnus Web, which doesn't hit a lot of the creatures you want it to, can be randomly "disenchanted" by Reckless Charge, equipment, etc.
Colorless/Multicolor changes:
Metalworker out for Isolated Chapel. Just ripped this from a pack. Not the ideal Orzhov land, but it's what I've got for now. No artifact.dec support for now, so no MW.
Aeolipile out for Verdant Catacombs. A placeholder comes out for a fetch.
Myr Sire out for Gerrard's Verdict. A worse Doomed Traveler comes out for one of Orzhov's best cards.
Voltaic Key out for Pristine Talisman. The key is too narrow for cube, especially without support for artifect.dec. The talisman may be one mana-fact too many, but it can be good in control.
Also just ripped a Gravecrawler. Putting him in for Throat Slitter. Ninjutsu is fun but it seems too situational.
Subbing out a Grand Abolisher, which I feel is much more of a constructed kind of card, for Loyal Cathar.
Replacing Shivan Raptor with Fervent Cathar, which I think is an underrated little gem, and will push through more damage than the raptor on average, without echo.
Aaaaand last but not least: can I get you to weigh in on our Sheoldred, Whispering One vs. Rune-Scarred Demon debate, mentioned above? Why is Sheoldred run in almost four times as many cubes? RSD seems like a better attacker, and immediately replaces himself with the best card left in your deck. Is it just that Sheoldred's upside is so high the longer she stays on the battlefield, and that black, high toughness creatures are very difficult to remove anyways? (But then getting Sheoldred Control Magic'ed is much worse than the same happening to RSD, since his effect happens only when he ETB...)
Edit: Ugh, somehow I got down to 447. Added four enemy color guild cards as placeholders (Memory's Journey, Rally the Peasants, Deadly Allure, Desperate Ravings) and subtracted Juggernaut. I have way too many four-drop artifact creatures, and Jug just doesn't cut it these days. Plus that puts me at exactly 60 colorless cards. OP has been completely updated and deckstats link is accurate.
@eidolon: Would you be so kind as to do your data mining thing and tell me about my uncommon cards, mana curve, etc.? Thanks!
Cheers,
rant
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The Abundant Growth is an interesting card because it does something relatively unique for cubes. It provides +1 card instead of the +1 mana you generally want out of these ramp spells. I think it's a trap for new cube managers though. Mana is a more valuable resource than cards in the early game. And the main role of these ramp spells is to accelerate your early game and put you in mid-game or late-game territory before your opponent.
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I know Metalworker is better in a vacuum, but he's weak in the context of my cube -- almost always strictly worse than Palladium Myr. Once I'm able to assemble more pieces of the artifact deck I would consider running him again. I'll probably cut Zuran Orb soon too, since I'm not yet running many of the cards it synergizes well with: Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, Knight of the Reliquary...
We're adding Sheoldred back in for Rune-Scarred, and Abundant Growth will come out soon for Arbor Elf.
And while we're on the subject, does anybody run any auras other than Rancor? Not including Control Magic effects, that is. Angelic Destiny?
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Cracked some packs and made some beneficial trades tonight to make up for going 1-2 in my draft.
Out ----> In
Rally the Peasants ----> Slayers' Stronghold. A placeholder comes out for one of Boros's best cards.
Memory's Journey ----> Lingering Souls. Cutting a boring placeholder for the most busted card in a long while, since Orzhov isn't at eight yet either.
Lim-Dul's Vault ----> Watery Grave. LDV is kind of a fun old card, but it doesn't even draw you one. Happy to have my first shockland! Mana-fixing is looking great in UB now. Can't wait to get better in other colors so I can start exiling the tri-lands.
Surreal Memoir ----> Archwing Dragon. I think this guy is a little underrated. Evasive, repeatable damage that avoids sorcery speed removal? Better by far than SM, which would be a lot better at 2R.
Mongrel Pack ----> Wolfir Avenger. Felt that I needed to cut a four-drop for a three-drop for curve reasons, and I think this one is the weakest. I wish the "during combat" clause weren't in there, as I like me some tokens.
Vedalken Anatomist ----> Fettergeist. Unfortunately VA's effect is too slow and expensive to activate for the cube.
Elite Inquisitor ----> Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I'm not positive this is the cut, since the Loyal Cathar lacks first strike and the dude it becomes when it dies isn't terribly exciting.
Rain of Tears ----> Griselbrand. Yeah, I need to start including more support for reanimator. But I can't not run this guy. I mean, he's just obscene! Plus RoT isn't hard to lose, since I don't think LD is really a viable theme in black.
I just got a Marsh Flats in the mail. Put it in for Deadly Allure, the BG placeholder.
As usual, an edifying perspective! But I think I prefer the flashbackable, reanimation-enabling Forbidden Alchemy, and I'm going to put it in soon for either the signet or the talisman.
A few more incremental changes for ya. Out ---> In
Gravedigger ---> Bloodghast
Drogskol Reaver ---> Geist of Saint Traft
Plague Spores ---> Olivia Voldaren
Desperate Ravings ---> Hinterland Harbor
Humility ---> Ajani Goldmane
Green
Dawnstrider ---> Lotus Cobra
Hunting Moa ---> Somberwald Sage
Desert Twister ---> Primeval Titan
Abundant Growth ---> Fertile Ground
Vital Splicer ---> Garruk, Primal Hunter
Scorned Villager ---> Channel. The Villager never seems to flip. I know Channel is a Johnny card, but we like it over here. We'll like it even more when Sundering Titan arrives...
Djinn of Wishes ---> Sphinx of Uthuun. I s'pose the Sphinx won't make the final draft, but I felt like blue could use a control finisher/reanimation target. I don't love Djinn because the cards it flips will often be counterspells or other tricky blue mage things where you want to be able to decide when to use them. It's also kind of mana-intensive, which can hinder you from playing the counters/bounce you know you have available (in your hand).
Everybody help me convince my friend that Onyx Mage needs to be cut before Dauthi Slayer! Also, does anybody think there's a cut that could/should be made in red for Relentless Assault?
Interesting... For me the essence of the difference is that Slayer is an aggro card, and Onyx isn't really. I see deathtouch as an ability that shines most on defensive weenies like Winged Coatl, Ambush Viper, Typhoid Rats, or Thornweald Archer. Or on something like Ohran Viper, where it discourages them from blocking, and in turn you get something. Onyx does have nice synergy with Cunning Sparkmage, Olivia Voldaren, and Spikeshot Elder (coming soon) but ultimately I think his ability is too mana-intensive to do much -- i.e. if you're spending mana on his ability early game then you aren't curving out with your guys. Then again, I suppose the point is that you can threaten the deathtouch without actually paying for it. Anybody else want to weigh in here?
Between Onyx Mage and Dauthi Slayer I am with eidolon232, I'd pick the Mage for the same reasons.
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"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
****ing site deleted my post, so I'm not going to bother with my reasonings again. Tell me if you disagree with anything.
Out
In
Edit: OP updated except for deckstats link.
Other changes look good. I'd think that Reflecting Pool makes the cut at 450, no?
Cheers,
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I cut Reflecting Pool as well, even though I play quite a lot of lands. The reason is that for some decks, you rather play an additional basic land than the pool. I think the pool is good in many-color good-stuff decks to help with the heavier color requirements, but is not needed in two color decks that I want to encourage.
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2. Great changes! You're adding a lot of rock-solid cards with this update.
My beef:
-Cutting Keldon Vandals: You and I are on the same page regarding a lot of card opinions. So let me just say that I was totally with you on this one. was. I tried cutting this a while ago, but came to the conclusion that this is one of those cards that gets so much respect that you should just run it, even if it isn't your favorite. If this were my cube, I'd cut burn at the stake or ancient hydra for it.
-Cutting Ravenous Baboons: just like Keldon Vandals, maybe this guy should stick around until you acquire a card that really pushes it out. You're running a handful of fringe cards that could easily go for this guy.
-Cutting overrun: I'm still testing this card, but I think this is the best option for green finishing spells (aside from Plow Under). Since green is my favourite color, I've toyed around with it a lot. I've tried Briarhorn, Stunted Growth, Gaea's Revenge, Constant Mists, and probably a few others I can't think of. If this were my cube, I'd cut Invigorate without blinking an eye.
-Adding Hornet Queen, Pelakka Wurm, and Terastodon: that brings your green fatties to 1 6cc, 2 7cc (excluding tusker), and 1 8cc. I think that's 1 too much for a 450. If this were my cube, I'd cut Terastodon.
Keep Zo-Zu at all costs! He swings for 2 while being reach at the same time. Him + Ankh of Mishra in the same deck is so good it's silly!
Hope this helps!
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