We were playing Necropotence for a long time, and when it got cast it was awesome. We had been supporting monoblack as an archetype, with cards like Necropotence, Nantuko Shade, Lashwrithe, and for a short while Cabal Coffers. Over time we ended up cutting all of the cards mentioned except Necropotence (as it was awesome). Problem was no one was playing it, so we reluctantly cut it. It is still in our on deck file, amd honestly we've considered bringing it and Geralf's Messanger in and giving black heavy archetypes another shot.
So in short we played Necropotence, it was very close to being good enough, we might give it another try accepting that it's realistically a 5 drop.
As for the five drops I agree that Gideon is the best and Reveillark has the highest upside. The reason we run the token makers is we love tokens. Simple as that, if our drafts were completely cut throat then they probably wouldn't perform as well as they do, but they get picked high and have some measure of success because people in my playgroup try to make their decks tokens, and the cards (ghm and couldgoat) have a high enough power level that they aren't completely out classed.
Alright moving this to my cube thread where it belongs I'm looking at adding the following lands with some potential changes depending on if I get convinced by peoples arguments on different lands to add.
I'd personally go with the bounceland for the Simic guild. The mana advantage is what makes g/u so strong in the cube.
White cut suggestions: Emeria Angel - White 4cc is so stacked I don't think this guy really competes with the other's raw power. Geist-Honored Monk - Seems good, but I like the other two cards more.
Black: Juzam Djinn - I think the other 4cc creatures just outclass this guy. Ob Nixilis, the Fallen - I could go either way on your five-drop to keep. I love drawing cards, but both are good IMO.
I would cut
Mistral Charger (redundant and rather unexciting)
Geist-Honored Monk / Emeria Angel (mana curve)
Æther Tradewinds (imo your worst U car)
Capsize (too many expensive cards in blue)
Makeshift Mannequin (you worst reanimation spell)
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen (enough better 5/6 drops)
Kruin Outlaw (unreliable)
Moltensteel Dragon (curve issues)
Creeping Mold (way too fair/slow)
Pelakka Wurm / Deranged Hermit (too many fatties)
Green Sun's Zenith (loses too much value in limited)
Kruin Outlaw is probably not 360 material but she is really not that far off either
PS escape my inexcusable laziness but does he run UN cards? If so Symbol Status has proven better than Hermit for us
As for listing Meloku I listing all my blue finishers and deciding which one was the worst, Meloku was at the bottom of the list as far as I was concerned but I wanted peoples opinions on that.
Theogony your list seems solid I think I agree with it, expect Jawr Isle we love him here. I'll be factoring in some Eidolon's list also as I am making a few more sawps
Lastly some other cards I wanted to give a try (or in some cases another try) to, most of them benefit from the better fixing that should be available. Which is what prompted me to make these changes in the first place. Plus wake thrasher as it seems awesome in U/x tempo aka aggro/control.
* that color combo wants a turn 1 play added enough and lavaclaw reaches seems bad enough to go with the Cliffs.
` I'll admit I was talked into this one.
! Again talked into it but I'm going to keep a very close eye on this one.
Lastly this entire change is on a trial basis so I'm not officially updating my list.
Wall of Roots seems to be falling out of favor and I don't know why. I think he is obviously good enough. One thing that we keep in mind is that if we added even more mana walls like Overgrown Battlements they would likely get picked in every draft. So while there should be a limit, I think there is a strong argument for at least keeping Roots around.
I agree with wtwlf's suggestions. While the Messenger appears to lower the curve, the fact is hitting triple-black on turn three is unlikely in anything other than a mono-black, or lightly splashed black deck. The messenger will most likely be a 6 drop in most two color decks and unplayable in three color decks.
@KBH: Wall of Roots is amazing. But supporting aggro is not an easy thing. Blimpy goes so far as to center his entire cube around supporting aggro in order to make it a reliably viable strategy, wtwlf created a numeric ratio to do the same in his cube, and I'm kinda fumbling around blindly with it. But the wall goes a long way in hurting aggro having really high toughness and giving a player 2 additional mana over the course of 1 turn rotation helping it's owner stablize. I think that is why it's being cut.
Wall of Roots seems to be falling out of favor and I don't know why. I think he is obviously good enough. One thing that we keep in mind is that if we added even more mana walls like Overgrown Battlements they would likely get picked in every draft. So while there should be a limit, I think there is a strong argument for at least keeping Roots around.
It's a great card but it hinders aggro. It blocks guys and ramps mid-range and control decks, and a lot of cubes have enough of that. They'd rather support aggro as an archetype than try to hurt it more.
I'm testing the messenger and adding lands to see if with 4 cycles of duals, and a 360 card cube I can reliably get it down on curve. If I can't I'm planning on re-cutting the double/triple cost cards.
I've been trying Consecrated Sphinx in Capsizes spot. Landing Sphinx is maybe not the most powerful thing in the game but in a solid control deck one untap with it feels like you can't lose. (Also it makes Jace Beleren's +2 amazing!)
It's been very comparable and it will probably stay in, but capsize might not stay out.
Also going to give Frost Titan a try, since the same people who tried (and I suppose succeeded) convinced me to try sphinx also advocated Frosty.
Multicolor
Slayer's Stronghold and Desolate Lighthouse are in but the cuts aren't direct or sensible so I'm just going to explain what happened. Looking back on adding a 4th "cycle" of lands and going down to 2 cards per guild I mostly liked it but I couldn't stomach some of the cuts. So with this update I moved the 4th cycle out of lands and to it's respective guild where it had to fight for it's slot against the 3rd best multicolor card. Also in the same brainstorming session I decided to move Hybrid cards to the weaker monocolor section they could go into (assuming they were good enough to fit in). This sent Figure of Destiny to white, Kitchen Finks to green, and Murderous Redcap to Black. I'm not sure if I like classifying things this way but I'll see how I feel in a few months.
Also on that note does R/B want a Land or Terminate (or Sarkahn the Mad) more, I'm not really sure.
And yeah there are some really bad cards in there they were leftover from testing some of the weird stuff from the mtgo cube, some were surprisingly solid just not 360 powered material.
I don't like hybrid cards in the mono sections, but that's a design choice. Nothing wrong with testing some of the miracle cards, but really, Entreat the Angels looks like the best one. I'd bring that in before Terminus. I also think in general that you are hosing aggro with this update. If that's your goal, fine, but I'm not sure it is. Red in particular is going to suffer.
Here are my alternate suggestions to some of your cuts:
I wouldn't cut Skyfisher or Journey. I'd cut Elesh Norn (don't need this many fatties at 360) and either Elspeth Tirel or Karmic Guide.
I prefer Sphinx to Titan, but I prefer Keiga, the Tide Star to both. I'd probably cut Condescend or Stifle before Gifts Ungiven, but not every group likes that card.
Even getting rid of black aggro, I'd keep Dark Ritual (for powering out fatties and doing sick discard on t1) and Oona's Prowler (fuels reanimator and beats down). I'd cut Sorin Markov and whichever 1-mana discard spell you like least. Honestly, if you don't like black aggro, I think you should revamp this whole section. Right now, it looks like you have black aggro elements, but you aren't giving it full support.
You are really nuking red aggro. Keldon Marauders, Burst Lightning, and Incinerate (and Goblin Patrol to a lesser extent) all really push aggro. It's fine to have a big red style deck available, but the way you are doing it is to make red aggro pretty half-ass. I'd add Lightning Mauler and Wildfire (and maybe Bonfire to test miracles), cutting Blademaster and Lumberjack (and Fireball if you add Bonfire).
I'd cut Great Sable Stag instead of Ohran Viper and Harrow or Pelakka Wurm instead of Blastoderm. Also, I can't believe you don't run Viridian Shaman or Uktabi Organutan. I'd rather see you add them than any of the new green cards.
The cutting of Kor Skyfisher, Journey to Nowhere, Dark Ritual, Oona's Prowler, Keldon Marauders, Incinerate and Burst Lightning is a mistake. I'm all for cutting fringey cards to test out new ones or squeeze in pet cards, but these cards are all staples, IMO.
I don't like hybrid cards in the mono sections, but that's a design choice. Nothing wrong with testing some of the miracle cards, but really, Entreat the Angels looks like the best one. I'd bring that in before Terminus.
Understandable about the hyrbrid cards I'm still not sure how much I like them. It was really just a way to avoid making hard cuts.
As for Entreat the Angels, I hadn't been happy with Decree of Justice in ages so I was scared off of Entreat if I end up liking Miracle it will go in.
I also think in general that you are hosing aggro with this update. If that's your goal, fine, but I'm not sure it is. Red in particular is going to suffer.
Red aggro has been the best deck in my cube for a while, I'd be surprised if these cuts hurt it too much but it's something I'll make sure to keep an eye on.
Here are my alternate suggestions to some of your cuts:
I wouldn't cut Skyfisher or Journey. I'd cut Elesh Norn (don't need this many fatties at 360) and either Elspeth Tirel or Karmic Guide.
You're right about not needing that many fatties, but Elesh Norn isn't the first to be cut. I don't get the skyfisher love though I consider it an ok card but nowhere near the top of the two drops in white. Journey was the wrong cut though it will stay in probably at Karmic Guides expense.
I prefer Sphinx to Titan, but I prefer Keiga, the Tide Star to both. I'd probably cut Condescend or Stifle before Gifts Ungiven, but not every group likes that card.
So far we've like Consecrated Sphinx, and Shpinx of Jwar isle more than we liked Keiga, and the Titan is just in on a testing basis, not expecting it to stick long term.
As for gifts we are one of those groups that just doesn't like it, never seems to be good enough for us, which is kinda sad because it's a really cool card.
Even getting rid of black aggro, I'd keep Dark Ritual (for powering out fatties and doing sick discard on t1) and Oona's Prowler (fuels reanimator and beats down). I'd cut Sorin Markov and whichever 1-mana discard spell you like least. Honestly, if you don't like black aggro, I think you should revamp this whole section. Right now, it looks like you have black aggro elements, but you aren't giving it full support.
Black is a struggle for me right now, I didn't like it in aggro as it had to fight for the disruption cards with control which is something white aggro doesn't have to fight over. The entire section is really up in the air and I expect I'll be changing it a lot in the coming weeks.
As for the suggestions, I'm surprised that dark ritual is so beloved, it never performed anywhere near what I expected out of it. I guess since it is getting love from two cubers whose opinions I respect I'll give it another try and leave Liliana Vess on the sidelines for now. As for Oona's Prowler the card was never good for us, it was underwhelming in aggro decks, and every deck with a heavy reanimator we ever drafted sucked, so the prowler is leaving for now.
You are really nuking red aggro. Keldon Marauders, Burst Lightning, and Incinerate (and Goblin Patrol to a lesser extent) all really push aggro. It's fine to have a big red style deck available, but the way you are doing it is to make red aggro pretty half-ass. I'd add Lightning Mauler and Wildfire (and maybe Bonfire to test miracles), cutting Blademaster and Lumberjack (and Fireball if you add Bonfire).
Quote from wtwlf123 »
The cutting of Kor Skyfisher, Journey to Nowhere, Dark Ritual, Oona's Prowler, Keldon Marauders, Incinerate and Burst Lightning is a mistake. I'm all for cutting fringey cards to test out new ones or squeeze in pet cards, but these cards are all staples, IMO.
I understand that red aggro is a key part of cube, and I understand it's hugely important it gets enough burn and cheap creatures to be good. That said I can't understand how cutting the (in my estimation) worst 2 drop and 2 worst burn spells is throwing red aggro under the bus. Red would still have 7 1cc creatures and 8 2cc's, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 instant/sorcery burn spells. At the very least I'm adding Bonfire, Wildfire, Destructive Force, and Lightning Mauler. I could see making the cuts you recommend instead Rant, but that would still leave me a card short, suggestions?
I'd cut Great Sable Stag instead of Ohran Viper and Harrow or Pelakka Wurm instead of Blastoderm. Also, I can't believe you don't run Viridian Shaman or Uktabi Organutan. I'd rather see you add them than any of the new green cards.
I know people consider the artifact destroyers staples but green has never really struggled in terms of getting enough artifact destruction. I might add one when Wolfir Silverheart inevitably isn't good enough but I'm not adding both. GSS has been much better than Viper for us. Harrow was actually the second card I considered cutting instead of Blastoderm, maybe I'll cut both and give Vengevine another try. Pelaka Wurm isn't going anywhere though, I know it's fallen out of favor but it's been so good for us, I like it almost as much as Woodfall Primus.
Hope that provides some food for thought.
Cheers,
rant
It did thanks, and you are right about black it's in need of an overhaul since I'm getting off the black aggro train.
You might be right about the burn but I can't see Mauraders being a best Red two drop.
I have to Red two drops in my cube rated, I'm curious to see how you'd rate them differently
Best
Stormblood Beserker
Plated Geopede
Kargan Dragonlord
Hellspark Elemental
Torch Fiend
Hearth Kami
Keldon Mauraders
Worst
As for Entreat the Angels, I hadn't been happy with Decree of Justice in ages so I was scared off of Entreat if I end up liking Miracle it will go in.
I like Decree but I don't think it's 360 material. Then again, I don't think any of the miracle cards either.
Red aggro has been the best deck in my cube for a while, I'd be surprised if these cuts hurt it too much but it's something I'll make sure to keep an eye on.
But you are cutting some really good cards and adding cards that can punish aggro. Additionally, aggro depends on having a critical mass of similar cards and you're cutting those.
You're right about not needing that many fatties, but Elesh Norn isn't the first to be cut. I don't get the skyfisher love though I consider it an ok card but nowhere near the top of the two drops in white. Journey was the wrong cut though it will stay in probably at Karmic Guides expense.
Than what would be the first? It can't be Sun Titan because that card comes down ~2-3 turns faster and has some disgusting combos (Strip Mine, Bone Shredder, Ghitu Slinger, fetchlands, etc.). It can't be Exalted Angel because that card isn't really a fatty--it's more like 4-drop. That leaves Norn. Skyfisher is the only 2-drop in white that has both evasion and 3-toughness. Add to that the drawback which a lot of the time is actually a bonus. It's pretty great.
Black is a struggle for me right now, I didn't like it in aggro as it had to fight for the disruption cards with control which is something white aggro doesn't have to fight over. The entire section is really up in the air and I expect I'll be changing it a lot in the coming weeks.
Black is the third best aggro color. It does suffer from the problem that a lot of its good cards for aggro are also good in midrange and control. However, the fast beaters are not. So your drafters have to draft accordingly if they are in black aggro. If you cut the aggro out of black (and somewhat neuter red aggro), you are essentially only leaving white as an aggro color. I think you are moving your cube in the direction of control vs midrange slugfests. If you aren't going to support aggro in black, you need to really push it in red, white, and probably green.
As for the suggestions, I'm surprised that dark ritual is so beloved, it never performed anywhere near what I expected out of it. I guess since it is getting love from two cubers whose opinions I respect I'll give it another try and leave Liliana Vess on the sidelines for now.
It brings down a card two turns faster. Additionally, it gives you a second black mana if you are color screwed. It's the shiz!
As for Oona's Prowler the card was never good for us, it was underwhelming in aggro decks, and every deck with a heavy reanimator we ever drafted sucked, so the prowler is leaving for now.
Sorry it's not working for you. In me experience, aggro decks love a card that either beats for three in the air or hits for one and makes the opponent discard. It combos really well with any graveyard strategy, not just reanimator. In fact, you are adding two of Prowler's best friends in this update: Makeshift Manequin and Necromancy. And, without those two cards in the cube, I can totally see why reanimator decks sucked for you.
That said I can't understand how cutting the (in my estimation) worst 2 drop and 2 worst burn spells is throwing red aggro under the bus.
What wtwlf said.
At the very least I'm adding Bonfire, Wildfire, Destructive Force, and Lightning Mauler. I could see making the cuts you recommend instead Rant, but that would still leave me a card short, suggestions?
Definitely Kruin Outlaw. Second choice would be Chandra the Firebrand.
I know people consider the artifact destroyers staples but green has never really struggled in terms of getting enough artifact destruction. I might add one when Wolfir Silverheart inevitably isn't good enough but I'm not adding both. GSS has been much better than Viper for us. Harrow was actually the second card I considered cutting instead of Blastoderm, maybe I'll cut both and give Vengevine another try. Pelaka Wurm isn't going anywhere though, I know it's fallen out of favor but it's been so good for us, I like it almost as much as Woodfall Primus.
I don't know what to say to this except to disagree entirely. I think green is at its strongest when most of its cards are creatures and most of those creatures do something when the ETB. That's why I much prefer the Sex Monkey to Naturalize and would run Viridian Shaman over quite a lot of stuff. Pelakka is really good, but I think, again, you have enough fatties for a 360 and it's not as good as Hornet Queen.
It did thanks, and you are right about black it's in need of an overhaul since I'm getting off the black aggro train.
Glad to help. Sorry if I come off as harsh. I'm just giving you my opinion. As always, do what works best for you and your drafters.
Marauders is better than the Dragonlord and the Artifact killers for sure. Also, where's Fireslinger? I didn't see it on your list, but it's another great red 2-drop.
Marauders is better than the Dragonlord and the Artifact killers for sure. Also, where's Fireslinger? I didn't see it on your list, but it's another great red 2-drop.
My first thought was to cut Dragonlord. I also think Marauders is a better card than the artifact killers but I see those as more important cards.
I was not ever impressed by Fireslinger, I get how pinging is good but having only 1 power just kills him in my book. I can see Mauraders being stronger than Dragonlord, and technically stronger than the artifact killers. That said I consider the artifact killers more important. But you are probably correct that cutting a two drop isn't the right move in this situation.
Also Rant, I appreciate all criticism that it is constructive, and your's definitely is and is much appreciated, I wouldn't be here if I didn't expect my cube opinions to be torn to shreds by other cubers.
I really don't think that having 2 6+ cc creatures (like you said Exalted Angel doesn't really count) in white is too many but to keep those I think I ought to cut a 5 cc spell or two.
Black is the third best aggro color. It does suffer from the problem that a lot of its good cards for aggro are also good in midrange and control. However, the fast beaters are not. So your drafters have to draft accordingly if they are in black aggro. If you cut the aggro out of black (and somewhat neuter red aggro), you are essentially only leaving white as an aggro color. I think you are moving your cube in the direction of control vs midrange slugfests. If you aren't going to support aggro in black, you need to really push it in red, white, and probably green.
I think even with the changes White and Red (especially since I'm adopting some of your suggestions) will still be full fledged aggro colors, and I think Black, Blue, and Green can all support an aggro deck, but I don't think any of them can provide the base color for it. I'll keep an eye out but I expect aggro will still be a healthy and functioning archetype here.
So in short we played Necropotence, it was very close to being good enough, we might give it another try accepting that it's realistically a 5 drop.
As for the five drops I agree that Gideon is the best and Reveillark has the highest upside. The reason we run the token makers is we love tokens. Simple as that, if our drafts were completely cut throat then they probably wouldn't perform as well as they do, but they get picked high and have some measure of success because people in my playgroup try to make their decks tokens, and the cards (ghm and couldgoat) have a high enough power level that they aren't completely out classed.
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Fetid Heath
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Emeria Angel
1 Catastrophe
1 Geist Honored Monk
Blue
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Spell Pierce
1 Capsize
1 Jace Memory Adept
1 Keiga, the Tide Star
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
1 Meloku, the clouded mirror
1 Juzam Djinn
1 Ob Nix Bloodgift
1 Black Suns Zenith
Red
1 Keldon Champion
1 Moltensteel dragon
1 Keldon Mauraders
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Creeping Mold
As always alternative suggestions are welcome.
White cut suggestions:
Emeria Angel - White 4cc is so stacked I don't think this guy really competes with the other's raw power.
Geist-Honored Monk - Seems good, but I like the other two cards more.
Blue:
Spell Pierce - Seems narrow enough it could be cut.
Sphinx of Jwar Isle - IMO boring.
Black:
Juzam Djinn - I think the other 4cc creatures just outclass this guy.
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen - I could go either way on your five-drop to keep. I love drawing cards, but both are good IMO.
Red:
Moltensteel Dragon - Same as above for 4cc dudes.
Keldon Champion - Same as above.
Green:
Wall of Roots - I just cut this guy myself. I think aggro with appreciate it.
Creeping Mold - I'd keep it myself, but I like the wall more.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Never cut Meloku.
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Kruin Outlaw is probably not 360 material but she is really not that far off either
PS escape my inexcusable laziness but does he run UN cards? If so Symbol Status has proven better than Hermit for us
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As for listing Meloku I listing all my blue finishers and deciding which one was the worst, Meloku was at the bottom of the list as far as I was concerned but I wanted peoples opinions on that.
Theogony your list seems solid I think I agree with it, expect Jawr Isle we love him here. I'll be factoring in some Eidolon's list also as I am making a few more sawps
Lastly some other cards I wanted to give a try (or in some cases another try) to, most of them benefit from the better fixing that should be available. Which is what prompted me to make these changes in the first place. Plus wake thrasher as it seems awesome in U/x tempo aka aggro/control.
Alright then Cube update time
1 Emeria Angel
1 Geist-Honored Monk
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Mistral Charger
Blue
1 Spell Pierce
1 Capsize
1 AEther Tradewinds
1 Juzam Djinn
1 Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
1 Liliana Vess
1 Makeshift Mannequin
Red:
1 Moltensteel Dragon
1 Keldon Champion
1 Wall of Roots
1 Creeping Mold
Additons
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Monk
Blue
1 Wake Thrasher
Black
1 Necropotence
1 Geralf's Messanger
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Blackcleave Cliffs *
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Raging Ravine `
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Fetid Heath
1 Simic Growth Chamber !
1 Izzet Boilerworks
* that color combo wants a turn 1 play added enough and lavaclaw reaches seems bad enough to go with the Cliffs.
` I'll admit I was talked into this one.
! Again talked into it but I'm going to keep a very close eye on this one.
Lastly this entire change is on a trial basis so I'm not officially updating my list.
I'd cut Kruin Outlaw to keep Moltensteel Dragon in if possible too.
I'd also play Ob Nix over that Messenger guy.
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We were never impressed with Ob Nixilis and the messanger lowers the curve. I might cut Sorin instead if Ob Nix is missed, and Sorin underperforms.
Kruin Outlaw has been awesome for us, Markov Blademaster hasn't been and might get the axe to get the Dragon back in.
@KBH: Wall of Roots is amazing. But supporting aggro is not an easy thing. Blimpy goes so far as to center his entire cube around supporting aggro in order to make it a reliably viable strategy, wtwlf created a numeric ratio to do the same in his cube, and I'm kinda fumbling around blindly with it. But the wall goes a long way in hurting aggro having really high toughness and giving a player 2 additional mana over the course of 1 turn rotation helping it's owner stablize. I think that is why it's being cut.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
It's a great card but it hinders aggro. It blocks guys and ramps mid-range and control decks, and a lot of cubes have enough of that. They'd rather support aggro as an archetype than try to hurt it more.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
It's been very comparable and it will probably stay in, but capsize might not stay out.
Also going to give Frost Titan a try, since the same people who tried (and I suppose succeeded) convinced me to try sphinx also advocated Frosty.
format Out > In
White
Mikeaus the Lunarch > Restoration Angel
Kor Skyfisher > Nearheath Pilgrim
Journey to Nowhere> Terminus
Aven Mindcensor > Silverblade Paladin
Blue
Neurok Commando > Tamiyo
Intuition > Temporal Mastery
Sphinx of Jwar Isle > Frost Titan
Gifts Ungiven > Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Psionic Blast > Impulse
Black: I've been a little disappointed with it as an aggro color so I'm making it slower, might not like that either so it will probably be tweaked in the near future.
Dark Ritual > Murderous Redcap (explanation in multicolor section)
Necropotence > Makeshift Mannequin
Oona's Prowler > Necromancy
Vampire Lacerator > Liliana Vess
Geralf's Messanger > Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Red: I want to add a big red deck and wildfire seemed like the best way to do so.
Goblin Patrol > Bonfire of the Damned
Orcish Lumberjack > Hound of Griselbrand
Markov Blademaster > Lightning Mauler
Keldon Mauraders > Thunderous Wrath
Incinerate > Wildfire
Burst Lightning > Destructive Force (I hate P3K so I'm using this over Burning of the Xiyne might actually be terrible if so I might breakdown on my no P3K rule).
Green
Green Sun's Zenith > Revenge of the Hunted
Orhan Viper > Ulvenwald Tracker
Blastoderm > Wolfir Silverheart
Multicolor
Slayer's Stronghold and Desolate Lighthouse are in but the cuts aren't direct or sensible so I'm just going to explain what happened. Looking back on adding a 4th "cycle" of lands and going down to 2 cards per guild I mostly liked it but I couldn't stomach some of the cuts. So with this update I moved the 4th cycle out of lands and to it's respective guild where it had to fight for it's slot against the 3rd best multicolor card. Also in the same brainstorming session I decided to move Hybrid cards to the weaker monocolor section they could go into (assuming they were good enough to fit in). This sent Figure of Destiny to white, Kitchen Finks to green, and Murderous Redcap to Black. I'm not sure if I like classifying things this way but I'll see how I feel in a few months.
Also on that note does R/B want a Land or Terminate (or Sarkahn the Mad) more, I'm not really sure.
And yeah there are some really bad cards in there they were leftover from testing some of the weird stuff from the mtgo cube, some were surprisingly solid just not 360 powered material.
Here are my alternate suggestions to some of your cuts:
I wouldn't cut Skyfisher or Journey. I'd cut Elesh Norn (don't need this many fatties at 360) and either Elspeth Tirel or Karmic Guide.
I prefer Sphinx to Titan, but I prefer Keiga, the Tide Star to both. I'd probably cut Condescend or Stifle before Gifts Ungiven, but not every group likes that card.
Even getting rid of black aggro, I'd keep Dark Ritual (for powering out fatties and doing sick discard on t1) and Oona's Prowler (fuels reanimator and beats down). I'd cut Sorin Markov and whichever 1-mana discard spell you like least. Honestly, if you don't like black aggro, I think you should revamp this whole section. Right now, it looks like you have black aggro elements, but you aren't giving it full support.
You are really nuking red aggro. Keldon Marauders, Burst Lightning, and Incinerate (and Goblin Patrol to a lesser extent) all really push aggro. It's fine to have a big red style deck available, but the way you are doing it is to make red aggro pretty half-ass. I'd add Lightning Mauler and Wildfire (and maybe Bonfire to test miracles), cutting Blademaster and Lumberjack (and Fireball if you add Bonfire).
I'd cut Great Sable Stag instead of Ohran Viper and Harrow or Pelakka Wurm instead of Blastoderm. Also, I can't believe you don't run Viridian Shaman or Uktabi Organutan. I'd rather see you add them than any of the new green cards.
Hope that provides some food for thought.
Cheers,
rant
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Understandable about the hyrbrid cards I'm still not sure how much I like them. It was really just a way to avoid making hard cuts.
As for Entreat the Angels, I hadn't been happy with Decree of Justice in ages so I was scared off of Entreat if I end up liking Miracle it will go in.
Red aggro has been the best deck in my cube for a while, I'd be surprised if these cuts hurt it too much but it's something I'll make sure to keep an eye on.
You're right about not needing that many fatties, but Elesh Norn isn't the first to be cut. I don't get the skyfisher love though I consider it an ok card but nowhere near the top of the two drops in white. Journey was the wrong cut though it will stay in probably at Karmic Guides expense.
So far we've like Consecrated Sphinx, and Shpinx of Jwar isle more than we liked Keiga, and the Titan is just in on a testing basis, not expecting it to stick long term.
As for gifts we are one of those groups that just doesn't like it, never seems to be good enough for us, which is kinda sad because it's a really cool card.
Black is a struggle for me right now, I didn't like it in aggro as it had to fight for the disruption cards with control which is something white aggro doesn't have to fight over. The entire section is really up in the air and I expect I'll be changing it a lot in the coming weeks.
As for the suggestions, I'm surprised that dark ritual is so beloved, it never performed anywhere near what I expected out of it. I guess since it is getting love from two cubers whose opinions I respect I'll give it another try and leave Liliana Vess on the sidelines for now. As for Oona's Prowler the card was never good for us, it was underwhelming in aggro decks, and every deck with a heavy reanimator we ever drafted sucked, so the prowler is leaving for now.
I understand that red aggro is a key part of cube, and I understand it's hugely important it gets enough burn and cheap creatures to be good. That said I can't understand how cutting the (in my estimation) worst 2 drop and 2 worst burn spells is throwing red aggro under the bus. Red would still have 7 1cc creatures and 8 2cc's, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 instant/sorcery burn spells. At the very least I'm adding Bonfire, Wildfire, Destructive Force, and Lightning Mauler. I could see making the cuts you recommend instead Rant, but that would still leave me a card short, suggestions?
I know people consider the artifact destroyers staples but green has never really struggled in terms of getting enough artifact destruction. I might add one when Wolfir Silverheart inevitably isn't good enough but I'm not adding both. GSS has been much better than Viper for us. Harrow was actually the second card I considered cutting instead of Blastoderm, maybe I'll cut both and give Vengevine another try. Pelaka Wurm isn't going anywhere though, I know it's fallen out of favor but it's been so good for us, I like it almost as much as Woodfall Primus.
It did thanks, and you are right about black it's in need of an overhaul since I'm getting off the black aggro train.
You're not. You're cutting one of the best 2-drops and 2 of the best burn spells.
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I have to Red two drops in my cube rated, I'm curious to see how you'd rate them differently
Best
Stormblood Beserker
Plated Geopede
Kargan Dragonlord
Hellspark Elemental
Torch Fiend
Hearth Kami
Keldon Mauraders
Worst
But you are cutting some really good cards and adding cards that can punish aggro. Additionally, aggro depends on having a critical mass of similar cards and you're cutting those.
Than what would be the first? It can't be Sun Titan because that card comes down ~2-3 turns faster and has some disgusting combos (Strip Mine, Bone Shredder, Ghitu Slinger, fetchlands, etc.). It can't be Exalted Angel because that card isn't really a fatty--it's more like 4-drop. That leaves Norn. Skyfisher is the only 2-drop in white that has both evasion and 3-toughness. Add to that the drawback which a lot of the time is actually a bonus. It's pretty great.
Black is the third best aggro color. It does suffer from the problem that a lot of its good cards for aggro are also good in midrange and control. However, the fast beaters are not. So your drafters have to draft accordingly if they are in black aggro. If you cut the aggro out of black (and somewhat neuter red aggro), you are essentially only leaving white as an aggro color. I think you are moving your cube in the direction of control vs midrange slugfests. If you aren't going to support aggro in black, you need to really push it in red, white, and probably green.
It brings down a card two turns faster. Additionally, it gives you a second black mana if you are color screwed. It's the shiz!
Sorry it's not working for you. In me experience, aggro decks love a card that either beats for three in the air or hits for one and makes the opponent discard. It combos really well with any graveyard strategy, not just reanimator. In fact, you are adding two of Prowler's best friends in this update: Makeshift Manequin and Necromancy. And, without those two cards in the cube, I can totally see why reanimator decks sucked for you.
What wtwlf said.
Definitely Kruin Outlaw. Second choice would be Chandra the Firebrand.
I don't know what to say to this except to disagree entirely. I think green is at its strongest when most of its cards are creatures and most of those creatures do something when the ETB. That's why I much prefer the Sex Monkey to Naturalize and would run Viridian Shaman over quite a lot of stuff. Pelakka is really good, but I think, again, you have enough fatties for a 360 and it's not as good as Hornet Queen.
Glad to help. Sorry if I come off as harsh. I'm just giving you my opinion. As always, do what works best for you and your drafters.
Cheers,
rant
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My first thought was to cut Dragonlord. I also think Marauders is a better card than the artifact killers but I see those as more important cards.
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Also Rant, I appreciate all criticism that it is constructive, and your's definitely is and is much appreciated, I wouldn't be here if I didn't expect my cube opinions to be torn to shreds by other cubers.
I really don't think that having 2 6+ cc creatures (like you said Exalted Angel doesn't really count) in white is too many but to keep those I think I ought to cut a 5 cc spell or two.
I think even with the changes White and Red (especially since I'm adopting some of your suggestions) will still be full fledged aggro colors, and I think Black, Blue, and Green can all support an aggro deck, but I don't think any of them can provide the base color for it. I'll keep an eye out but I expect aggro will still be a healthy and functioning archetype here.
Updated proposed cuts list.
White
Mikeaus the Lunarch > Restoration Angel
Elspeth Tirel > Nearheath Pilgrim
Karmic Guide or Cloudgoat Ranger> Terminus
Aven Mindcensor > Silverblade Paladin
Blue
Neurok Commando > Tamiyo
Intuition > Temporal Mastery
Sphinx of Jwar Isle > Frost Titan
Gifts Ungiven > Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Psionic Blast > Impulse
Black
Necropotence > Makeshift Mannequin
Sracomancy > Necromancy
Vampire Lacerator > Murderous Redcap
Geralf's Messanger > Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Red
Orcish Lumberjack > Bonfire of the Damned
Markov Blademaster > Lightning Mauler
Fireball > Wildfire
Goblin Ruinblaster > Destructive Force
Avalanche Riders > Hellrider
Green
Green Sun's Zenith > Revenge of the Hunted
Orhan Viper > Ulvenwald Tracker
Blastoderm > Wolfir Silverheart
Harrow > Vengevine