I'd like to hear some more opinions before making a final cut. I originally had Akrasan Squire up for the cut. What if it was Akrasan Squire versus Cloudchaser Kestrel? One-drops that are still relevant in the late game command a premium at this size. Am I expecting too much value from the Kestrel? There are definitely times where it comes out as an awkward Wind Drake.
I was looking for some black cuts - potentially to include Contagion, Imperial Seal and Fume Spitter, but mostly to clear the decks prior to Dark Ascension. It's the section I was having the most trouble with, mainly because I push reanimator which takes up some slots, I think. For comparative purposes I did a bit of research tonight and looked at seven cubes that were all 720+ to see if my cuts were in line with others.
I restricted myself to only 720+ cubes visible on the first three pages of the Lists forum at the time of reading - I figured those would be the most up-to-date. (For reference, these were: Jimmmy, Patrunkenphat7, Bored_Mike, bondafong, HalfSlothHalfCamel, Fidelis and Darkmindtone.)
Conclusions:
1. There were a couple cards that were clear losers since they saw zero inclusion across the board (Persecute, Buried Alive, Raven's Crime). Most of these were reanimation enablers, which will probably mean a weakening of the archetype once they're removed and a trend to general-use decks for reanimation spells.
2. Many cubes at 720+ have near-identical cores based on 360-540 cubes (possibly larger, I haven't measured the deviation). BUT, they run analogues in most places where there is freedom of choice - instead of Visara the Dreadful, these cubes might run Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni, Massacre Wurm or Rune-Scarred Demon at the 6CC+ cost, for example.
4. Unusual choices. Some cubes had entire ranges of casting cost that differed drastically from other similarly sized cubes. I was interested to see Patrunkphat's cube, for example, play host to a ton of aggressive 3CC creatures that were uncommon choices (Ravenous Skirge, Necrogen Scudder, Phyrexian Rager, Throat Slitter). I was actually surprised there was no Ogre Marauder in that party. Others had choices that I consider subpar (Undead Gladiator, Living Death, Mesmeric Fiend, Mortis Dogs) and that I attributed to each cube designer's preferences and design decisions.
4. The value of pump knights. Only one cube out of the seven included Knight of Stromgald/Order of the Ebon Hand. Has the value of the pump knight diminished to the point where they are no longer considered cubeable even at large sizes?
Thanks. The three I'm removing are going to be Persecute, Raven's Crime and Buried Alive since they did the worst out of all the candidates, but Visara is one good black card away from getting cut as well.
It wasn't a problem since I was only looking at the first three pages and I was looking for specific cards. I wasn't comparing seven entire 720+ cubes to each other and looking for deviations, but your list above is obviously going to be a huge help for me when determining future cuts.
Reducing the cube's size in increments has been working out better than expected! I managed to get it to sub-855 way ahead of my goal (Dark Ascension prerelease). Thanks to everyone who chimed in. So far white and red have proven to be the most shallow colors at this size, but green, blue and black are quite healthy and I can only imagine they'll keep getting stronger with new sets. So I'll be concentrating mostly on paring down those three. My next goal will be 840, and the ideal will be to eventually cut down to 810 in the distant future. It sounds difficult, but with your help, I'm confident we'll get there.
I'm taking a break from black and moving into blue. Thanks to Eidolon's 720+ cube rankings, I've got a shortlist of the least played cards present in my cube. I need a verdict on which two cards should get the axe in my next update. Consensus on the best cards can be difficult; I'm hoping that consensus on the worst cards will be less so (but still provide a productive result!).
Without further ado, here is the worst of blue, with short rationale attached.
Esperzoa; a blue tempo beater; also here for The Artifact Deck. Sea Drake; tempo beats, same as Esperzoa. Snap, Boomerang, Wipe Away; cheap bounce effects also included to help tempo beats; Boomerang into Stone Rain is one of the most devastating plays in Magic (although I don't run Stone Rain; something to rectify, perhaps?). Wipe Away is arguably the weakest because of its cost. Divert; cheap redundant Misdirection. Broken Ambitions; a slightly worse copy of Condescend. Thoughtcast; another piece of The Artifact Deck.
I'd cut Wipe Away and Esperzoa.
Wipe Away is too slow. I like bounce more then most people, but the split second doesn't add much on a bounce spell.
Esperzoa seems too annoying to pay the upkeep for. Only with Moxen does it seem good enough, but even if your cube were 360 you couldn't count on getting a mox or two every time you draft.
Thoughtcast is pretty weak as well, you need three artifacts for it to be good. That seems a bit steep. It can be amazing but it better be as it can only be played in one archetype.
Boomerang and Sea Drake should be safe for a while I think, at least a 100 cuts further.
Unless you push the artifact aggro deck really hard Esperzoa and Thoughtcast seem really bad. You need two artifacts to make Thoughtcast as good as Councel of the Soratami / Divination, does that happen when you want it to?
Wipe Away is pretty bad aswell. I would probably keep Thoughtcast out of those three.
Unless you push the artifact aggro deck really hard Esperzoa and Thoughtcast seem really bad. You need two artifacts to make Thoughtcast as good as Councel of the Soratami / Divination, does that happen when you want it to?
It's a pretty small sample size due to the lower probability of seeing a specific card in draft, but Thoughtcast has fairly consistently been a draw-2 for 1U or less. I think the reason why is that it's usually not an early play like in a dedicated Affinity deck. It's a reload card, similar to my old inclusions Tidings and Jace's Ingenuity. Unlike those cards, the discount on Thoughtcast is a boon since it gives you the ability to immediately use the cards you just drew with the mana you just saved. It's a subtle reward for building The Artifact Deck.
Boomerang and Sea Drake should be safe for a while I think, at least a 100 cuts further.
I don't expect a specific list of cuts, but could you take a quick look at the contents of my cube and confirm that those two are indeed far from the cutting floor? Keep in mind that at least 100 cuts means there are at least 15 cards from each color + 15 cards in artifacts + 10 multicolor cards that could be cut before I need to consider Sea Drake and Boomerang. That seems like a lot of tough cuts for something that I was convinced could be removed without much impact.
That was easy. Thanks, guys! Next round should be a bit harder as we cut out the chaff.
Next up: Green!
Please be so kind as to indicate which two cards are unworthy of being cubed at the 800+ size. If you feel like there's a particularly ignominious candidate who's been left off the list, let me know as well*.
Scryb Ranger: Protection creatures are slowly getting outclassed, but perhaps this guy's other ability is still relevant? Mtenda Lion, Nettle Sentinel: Apparently I'm the only 720+ cube running these guys, which I think is a bit ridic. If protection is no longer a guarantee of cubeability, then the reverse should be true with Mtenda Lion. Its drawback rarely matters. And Nettle Sentinel's own drawback usually gets turned into vigilance, or into a combat trick if you have green instants (part of the reason why I'm still fond of Phyrexian Ironfoot's pseudo-vigilance). Moment's Peace: I'd rather not lose one of the best Fogs in the game (besides Constant Mists), but I will if there's enough support (or lack thereof!) for it. Mutagenic Growth: The free Giant Growth that any deck can use. Seal of Primordium: Rattlesnake disenchant. Its fire-and-forget nature is valued, as is the redundancy, but the opponent gets to play around it. Fertile Ground: Feels like one of the weaker mana-fixing spells in the cube (or is that Farseek?) Weatherseed Treefolk: Seems like a good cut for Vorapede, but Saproling Burst jumped in front of the bullet.
I'd definitely cut Mutagenic Growth. I don't think it does enough in green and the 2 life doesn't seem worth it outside of green. All of the other cards seem expendable. I guess I'd cut Fertile Ground because of anti-aura bias. Weatherseed is also possible because of the casting cost and Scryb Ranger due to being underwhelming (although flashing her in to block Vendillion Clique is pretty hot).
mutagenic growth and nettle sentinel are my least favorite from those you singled out.
fertile ground is an aura, yeah, but ld seems like it comes up less than kill and it also has positive interactions with time spiral, treachery, garruk, and anything else you have that untaps lands.
how is noxious revival doing?
I feel like farhaven elf would be more consistent than wood elves at this size but don't know for sure.
Nettle Sentinel is the weakest of the bunch for me. I like me card to be there when I want them and not just decide to remain tapped if I am a bit unlucky.
Scryb Ranger doesn't look like something green really needs. Green needs to hit hard, not do defensive fancy stuff with a 1/1 flyer.
Mutagenic Vault looks playable but it doesn't look green though. I mean who cares about the 2 life in an aggro deck? I would put this in colourless if you want to keep this.
Omnath deserves the boot too I think. Another card I wouldn't mind cutting is Beastbreaker of Bala Ged. It will never be bad, but I doubt it will ever be worth all the mana in a good green deck. When looking over green It hit me that even at the 800 card level green is strong, the power level doesn't drop off that fast compared to other colours. Green midrangy creatures remain pretty decent.
The other proposed cuts are all cards I wouldn't miss. While they are all decent, none of them are really powerfull or particularly important archetype wise.
About your blue cuts, these are cards I would probably cut before Boomerang and Sea drake:
- Vesuvan Shapeshifter: too slow and fancy, I would like this is in some midrange builds maybe, but do you need to actively support blue midrange?
- Rainbow Efreet: used to be great with old rules, nowadays it is just too slow I think
- Body Double: Not a real finisher, not fast, not good in defense, so not really needed in blue
- Teferi: same as the other, cute but too clunky, too slow: I'd rather have something like Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Morphling, some bounce, a wall or another counter in my deck
- Draining Whelk: Might be good enough, but this feels too untrustworthy both as a finisher (can be pretty small) or as a counter (too expensive)
- Rewind: We played this for a too long i think remembering how it played in constructed. In cube counterbattles are very rare and the rewinding is rarely relevant. Cancel might be better actually.
- Rushing River: Boomerang cost less mana and you can do the evil 'Boomerang on your Mountain'-trick which can be devastating
- Twincast: Again this depends in what you want from your cards, consitency or potential. I'd rather have a normal counter then a fancy card that will not help me against creatures (blues main weakness). Fork is a lot better as you will have the option to copy your own burn spells in red
- Copy artifact: Here I am not sure, but again sometimes this card will be underwhelming. Against decks with too few artifacts or artifacts that don't help you (Winter Orb, Crucible of Worlds,...). But I might be underestimating it a bit.
- Divert, Misdirection : Seems a bit too situational to me. Could be that I am not a 'fun' deck builder though
- Ancestral Vision: This card was too slow for us at 600. If I play a card I want the effect now not in three turns.
how is noxious revival doing?
I feel like farhaven elf would be more consistent than wood elves at this size but don't know for sure.
Noxious Revival has been mostly seeing play in green decks. I'd hazard a guess that it sees play in nongreen decks about a quarter of the time. It's a workhorse card, so it hasn't done anything spectacular, but it always does something solid.
I like the Farhaven Elf and would probably find a way to keep it at 900, but I prefer the Wood Elves. That's because I use the expansion system to create draft packs. This method was discussed ages ago on this forum, but it involves keeping a core cube and adding to it as the number of drafters grows. I have a fairly small core; mostly power, planeswalkers, duals/fetches and a handful of staples in each color. The rest is a semi-random composition of cards on the chopping block or that need testing. So Wood Elves, when it does show up, can still fetch duals. Costing a virtual 1G because it puts the Forest into play untapped is something I appreciate more too.
Now that you mention it, some of these could probably come out as well. I'll ensure most of them see inclusion in drafts so I can get a better idea, but here's my highlights:
I'm keeping Vesuvan Shapeshifter for the nonce because I like to think that the handful of extra morphs helps make for skill-testing situations.
I agree Body Double is mediocre and should get the boot very soon.
Twincast fits the "blue can do anything" approach that makes the color so powerful. I actually cut Fork but kept Reverberate. Fork makes the copy red, so Reverberate is usually better in corner cases against pro-red creatures. Is my thinking sound on this?
Copy Artifact, like Sculpting Steel, is just another piece of The Artifact Deck. I may eventually reconsider its inclusion, but the cheap mana cost makes it so easy to copy things. There's usually no lack of high-priority targets.
Divert/Misdirection: I recently cut Shunt for being too expensive, but the free or near-free nature of these two makes them much better in my eyes. I might be rating them too highly though.
Rewind: I could eventually cut it, but I'd have to take a serious look at the density of countermagic in my cube. I doubt we'll ever get a cubeable counterspell out of Magic again (or at least, not for a long time) so I can't even replace like-for-like.
Rushing River: Compared to Boomerang, have you considered that it can bounce twice as many permanents for only 1.5 times the cost, and is more splashable? Sacrificing a land is usually a negligible investment since it often puts you way ahead in board position or in a race.
Ancestral Vision: This card is a bit of a conundrum here. Maybe I'm placing too much importance on the U cost, but my thinking is this: I can pay U in the early turns of the game, refill my hand while having mana to use my newly acquired cards a few turns later, and take the risk of a potential dead draw late in the game. Or I can play something like Jace's Ingenuity or Careful Consideration, and not be able to cast them until a certain point in the game (whenever I have four or five mana or more, in this case), and possibly skip a play in return for the mana investment that those drawn cards required.
To me, the payoff of untapping with three extra cards and no additional investment is worth the risk.
Fork effects sure are powerfull but what does blue want more: Twincast or another counter? Twincast might be fancy, but a blue Fork is worth less then a red one as a lot of your own spells are not worth it being copied (Brainstorm and buddies, counters,...). You are indeed correct that Reverberate is probably better then fork in cube. Nostalgia would make it hard for me to play the newer version over the older one (like losing Juzam over Plague Sliver) though.
Rewind: You could try keeping tabs on how often it just is a 4 mana counter. If that happens too often, you could swap with something Cancellike.
Rushing River doesn't bounce lands, which makes it a lot less aggresive. It also costs one mana extra which makes a big difference for me. But bounce is pretty good most of the time and is undervalued by a lot of cube (and deck) builders I feel.
Yeah, I would value Reverberate higher than Twincast. A color with less inherently varied options can get more mileage out of it.
I wonder if I should add Opposition to the chopping block. It's in a color with very few options for a token theme. Is it worth playing blue in a token deck just for Opposition?
It's official: Mutagenic Growth, Nettle Sentinel and Scryb Ranger are no more! Thank you for the thoughtful responses that led me to this point.
And yes, the discussion actually convinced me to cut three cards instead of the usual two. This gives me an opportunity to try out cards I've excluded.
Scryb Ranger was a neat combat trick and mana development tool. Flash in the Ranger, untap a beater, block? Untapping karoos and multi-mana lands was also great, but most of all, he was a badly underpowered beater in a color that relies on the strength of its ground pounders. In its place I'll probably install something a bit more aggressive like Ice Storm or Mayor of Avabruck, which has been getting some nice feedback from the players running it.
The other two, well, I think I can live without, considering the power of incoming sets.
Let's cut cards in red! This has been working out so well that I'm almost at my current goal of 840. Only red and colorless are left on the hit list. So let's hit them up. Can you find the two worst cards hidden in the list below? (If you think there are other possibilities left unmentioned, I'd be happy to hear them too.)
He's the hardest one to let go out of the three, but I think my cube is slowly moving away from green as a tricky color anyway. I'd rather give the slot to a bigger and more cost-effective creature (in terms of power to mana cost).
In Hostility, for 6 mana I'd want my damage to go through NOT get prevented make tokens. And if I want hasted damage in red, I'd rather draft a hasted flyer like Rorix or the like.
In Word of Seizing, we also wanted to possibly steal a planeswalker use its ability, then give it back to you. Never ever happened.. It's more of a costlier Threaten.
Hostility seems very cute, but not good enough. Why do all that complicated stuff when you can just bash face with decent finishers?
Skred seems a bit odd. Do you have a snow subtheme going on in your cube? Even so I might actually prefer burn that can go to the dome instead of just creature removal.
Stigma Lasher has a hard to cast cost and its ability is not super relevant. He gets killed by every first striker in white and black.
Word of Seizing is not a Threaten clone, but a red Ray of Command. If you like combat tricks this card can be nice.
Violent Eruption cost makes me wonder about how often it will be problematic to cast.
Hostility is a bit awkward and doesn't always do as much as it looks like it should ccc can still be awkward even on a 6 drop and his ability is often overkill or makes tokens that can't get through the board and prevents you from burning your opponent out.
I really dislike Violent eruption again because of the ccc. I would prefer pyrotechnics, cone of flame, pyrokinesis, or even shower of coals for the effect.
Skred is decent. kills blockers and utility creatures early and is almost a terminate late. better for midrange/control though, in aggro I want burn that hits players. also the inability to hit planeswalkers makes it worse and worse.
I love word of seizing. it isnt always efficient but it is an awesome effect to have show up every once in a while. steals planeswalkers that just ticked up to ultimate and can steal games out of nowhere. I vote you keep it for as long as you use the expansion format.
Hostility seems like a clear cut. I was initially surprised though. I thought a do-nothing fatty like Flameblast Dragon would get a more negative reaction than a hasty beater. It looks like the negatives outweigh the positive after the above summaries.
Skred seems a bit odd. Do you have a snow subtheme going on in your cube? Even so I might actually prefer burn that can go to the dome instead of just creature removal.
Skred is decent. kills blockers and utility creatures early and is almost a terminate late. better for midrange/control though, in aggro I want burn that hits players. also the inability to hit planeswalkers makes it worse and worse.
I have no snow subtheme. I include in-house errata that all basic lands are treated as snow because of my two Cold Snap includes that require it (Skred and Phyrexian Ironfoot). I have some fondness for the Ironfoot as an undercosted colorless beater. But due to the prevalence of nonbasics, Skred generally plays like an instant-speed Flame Slash or slightly worse. So I could certainly see cutting it, although I find it can be difficult to accrue a critical mass of burn spells during draft.
I really dislike Violent eruption again because of the ccc. I would prefer pyrotechnics, cone of flame, pyrokinesis, or even shower of coals for the effect.
Violent Eruption can be inconsistent to cast because of the triple red. Its main use lies in counterburn, where the madness cost becomes relevant thanks to blue's looting power. This is also an archetype that lives almost exclusively on the opponent's turn. Having the option to choose between burning some creature(s), countering a spell or drawing some cards is part of the fun. That's why I wouldn't consider sorcery-speed versions even with an easier mana cost, because I believe the harder cost to be a worthwhile tradeoff for the benefits you can reap by responding instantly.
After much deliberation, the cuts were made. Goodbye, Hostility and Violent Eruption. There was a lot of good info in here, and it's going to help a great deal when I get to my next round of cuts.
But for now, there is one last hurdle to get over before the Dark Ascension update. The colorless section needs two cuts as well, and it's the one I may have the most trouble evaluating. Any input would be more valuable than ever.
Ideally, I'd like to hang on to the equipment. They have second-string status, but they play an invaluable role at this size, particularly Gorgon Flail and Empyrial Plate.
Here's the full colorless section. I'd be happy to entertain cuts from here as well.
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Here's what I found.
Black Knight: Found in 6 out of 7 cubes.
Corpse Dance: Found in 5 out of 7 cubes.
Visara the Dreadful: Found in 1 out of 7 cubes.
Knight of Stromgald: Found in 1 out of 7 cubes.
Beacon of Unrest: Found in 1 out of 7 cubes.
Buried Alive: Found in 0 out of 7 cubes.
Raven's Crime: Found in 0 out of 7 cubes.
Persecute: Found in 0 out of 7 cubes.
I restricted myself to only 720+ cubes visible on the first three pages of the Lists forum at the time of reading - I figured those would be the most up-to-date. (For reference, these were: Jimmmy, Patrunkenphat7, Bored_Mike, bondafong, HalfSlothHalfCamel, Fidelis and Darkmindtone.)
Conclusions:
1. There were a couple cards that were clear losers since they saw zero inclusion across the board (Persecute, Buried Alive, Raven's Crime). Most of these were reanimation enablers, which will probably mean a weakening of the archetype once they're removed and a trend to general-use decks for reanimation spells.
2. Many cubes at 720+ have near-identical cores based on 360-540 cubes (possibly larger, I haven't measured the deviation). BUT, they run analogues in most places where there is freedom of choice - instead of Visara the Dreadful, these cubes might run Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni, Massacre Wurm or Rune-Scarred Demon at the 6CC+ cost, for example.
3. Slight variation in one drops. While I run Putrid Imp as an outlier (again because of reanimator) others ran Guul Draz Vampire, Fume Spitter or even Pulse Tracker.
4. Unusual choices. Some cubes had entire ranges of casting cost that differed drastically from other similarly sized cubes. I was interested to see Patrunkphat's cube, for example, play host to a ton of aggressive 3CC creatures that were uncommon choices (Ravenous Skirge, Necrogen Scudder, Phyrexian Rager, Throat Slitter). I was actually surprised there was no Ogre Marauder in that party. Others had choices that I consider subpar (Undead Gladiator, Living Death, Mesmeric Fiend, Mortis Dogs) and that I attributed to each cube designer's preferences and design decisions.
4. The value of pump knights. Only one cube out of the seven included Knight of Stromgald/Order of the Ebon Hand. Has the value of the pump knight diminished to the point where they are no longer considered cubeable even at large sizes?
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Thanks. The three I'm removing are going to be Persecute, Raven's Crime and Buried Alive since they did the worst out of all the candidates, but Visara is one good black card away from getting cut as well.
It wasn't a problem since I was only looking at the first three pages and I was looking for specific cards. I wasn't comparing seven entire 720+ cubes to each other and looking for deviations, but your list above is obviously going to be a huge help for me when determining future cuts.
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I'm taking a break from black and moving into blue. Thanks to Eidolon's 720+ cube rankings, I've got a shortlist of the least played cards present in my cube. I need a verdict on which two cards should get the axe in my next update. Consensus on the best cards can be difficult; I'm hoping that consensus on the worst cards will be less so (but still provide a productive result!).
Without further ado, here is the worst of blue, with short rationale attached.
Esperzoa; a blue tempo beater; also here for The Artifact Deck.
Sea Drake; tempo beats, same as Esperzoa.
Snap, Boomerang, Wipe Away; cheap bounce effects also included to help tempo beats; Boomerang into Stone Rain is one of the most devastating plays in Magic (although I don't run Stone Rain; something to rectify, perhaps?). Wipe Away is arguably the weakest because of its cost.
Divert; cheap redundant Misdirection.
Broken Ambitions; a slightly worse copy of Condescend.
Thoughtcast; another piece of The Artifact Deck.
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Wipe Away is too slow. I like bounce more then most people, but the split second doesn't add much on a bounce spell.
Esperzoa seems too annoying to pay the upkeep for. Only with Moxen does it seem good enough, but even if your cube were 360 you couldn't count on getting a mox or two every time you draft.
Thoughtcast is pretty weak as well, you need three artifacts for it to be good. That seems a bit steep. It can be amazing but it better be as it can only be played in one archetype.
Boomerang and Sea Drake should be safe for a while I think, at least a 100 cuts further.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Wipe Away is pretty bad aswell. I would probably keep Thoughtcast out of those three.
It's a pretty small sample size due to the lower probability of seeing a specific card in draft, but Thoughtcast has fairly consistently been a draw-2 for 1U or less. I think the reason why is that it's usually not an early play like in a dedicated Affinity deck. It's a reload card, similar to my old inclusions Tidings and Jace's Ingenuity. Unlike those cards, the discount on Thoughtcast is a boon since it gives you the ability to immediately use the cards you just drew with the mana you just saved. It's a subtle reward for building The Artifact Deck.
I don't expect a specific list of cuts, but could you take a quick look at the contents of my cube and confirm that those two are indeed far from the cutting floor? Keep in mind that at least 100 cuts means there are at least 15 cards from each color + 15 cards in artifacts + 10 multicolor cards that could be cut before I need to consider Sea Drake and Boomerang. That seems like a lot of tough cuts for something that I was convinced could be removed without much impact.
The verdict is in: Esperzoa and Wipe Away are no more!
:toot::toot::toot:
That was easy. Thanks, guys! Next round should be a bit harder as we cut out the chaff.
Next up: Green!
Please be so kind as to indicate which two cards are unworthy of being cubed at the 800+ size. If you feel like there's a particularly ignominious candidate who's been left off the list, let me know as well*.
Scryb Ranger: Protection creatures are slowly getting outclassed, but perhaps this guy's other ability is still relevant?
Mtenda Lion, Nettle Sentinel: Apparently I'm the only 720+ cube running these guys, which I think is a bit ridic. If protection is no longer a guarantee of cubeability, then the reverse should be true with Mtenda Lion. Its drawback rarely matters. And Nettle Sentinel's own drawback usually gets turned into vigilance, or into a combat trick if you have green instants (part of the reason why I'm still fond of Phyrexian Ironfoot's pseudo-vigilance).
Moment's Peace: I'd rather not lose one of the best Fogs in the game (besides Constant Mists), but I will if there's enough support (or lack thereof!) for it.
Mutagenic Growth: The free Giant Growth that any deck can use.
Seal of Primordium: Rattlesnake disenchant. Its fire-and-forget nature is valued, as is the redundancy, but the opponent gets to play around it.
Fertile Ground: Feels like one of the weaker mana-fixing spells in the cube (or is that Farseek?)
Weatherseed Treefolk: Seems like a good cut for Vorapede, but Saproling Burst jumped in front of the bullet.
*Omnath, Locus of Mana and Saproling Burst are already on their way out, but anything else is fair game.
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Cheers,
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fertile ground is an aura, yeah, but ld seems like it comes up less than kill and it also has positive interactions with time spiral, treachery, garruk, and anything else you have that untaps lands.
how is noxious revival doing?
I feel like farhaven elf would be more consistent than wood elves at this size but don't know for sure.
Scryb Ranger doesn't look like something green really needs. Green needs to hit hard, not do defensive fancy stuff with a 1/1 flyer.
Mutagenic Vault looks playable but it doesn't look green though. I mean who cares about the 2 life in an aggro deck? I would put this in colourless if you want to keep this.
Omnath deserves the boot too I think. Another card I wouldn't mind cutting is Beastbreaker of Bala Ged. It will never be bad, but I doubt it will ever be worth all the mana in a good green deck. When looking over green It hit me that even at the 800 card level green is strong, the power level doesn't drop off that fast compared to other colours. Green midrangy creatures remain pretty decent.
The other proposed cuts are all cards I wouldn't miss. While they are all decent, none of them are really powerfull or particularly important archetype wise.
About your blue cuts, these are cards I would probably cut before Boomerang and Sea drake:
- Vesuvan Shapeshifter: too slow and fancy, I would like this is in some midrange builds maybe, but do you need to actively support blue midrange?
- Rainbow Efreet: used to be great with old rules, nowadays it is just too slow I think
- Body Double: Not a real finisher, not fast, not good in defense, so not really needed in blue
- Teferi: same as the other, cute but too clunky, too slow: I'd rather have something like Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Morphling, some bounce, a wall or another counter in my deck
- Draining Whelk: Might be good enough, but this feels too untrustworthy both as a finisher (can be pretty small) or as a counter (too expensive)
- Rewind: We played this for a too long i think remembering how it played in constructed. In cube counterbattles are very rare and the rewinding is rarely relevant. Cancel might be better actually.
- Rushing River: Boomerang cost less mana and you can do the evil 'Boomerang on your Mountain'-trick which can be devastating
- Twincast: Again this depends in what you want from your cards, consitency or potential. I'd rather have a normal counter then a fancy card that will not help me against creatures (blues main weakness). Fork is a lot better as you will have the option to copy your own burn spells in red
- Copy artifact: Here I am not sure, but again sometimes this card will be underwhelming. Against decks with too few artifacts or artifacts that don't help you (Winter Orb, Crucible of Worlds,...). But I might be underestimating it a bit.
- Divert, Misdirection : Seems a bit too situational to me. Could be that I am not a 'fun' deck builder though
- Ancestral Vision: This card was too slow for us at 600. If I play a card I want the effect now not in three turns.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Noxious Revival has been mostly seeing play in green decks. I'd hazard a guess that it sees play in nongreen decks about a quarter of the time. It's a workhorse card, so it hasn't done anything spectacular, but it always does something solid.
I like the Farhaven Elf and would probably find a way to keep it at 900, but I prefer the Wood Elves. That's because I use the expansion system to create draft packs. This method was discussed ages ago on this forum, but it involves keeping a core cube and adding to it as the number of drafters grows. I have a fairly small core; mostly power, planeswalkers, duals/fetches and a handful of staples in each color. The rest is a semi-random composition of cards on the chopping block or that need testing. So Wood Elves, when it does show up, can still fetch duals. Costing a virtual 1G because it puts the Forest into play untapped is something I appreciate more too.
Now that you mention it, some of these could probably come out as well. I'll ensure most of them see inclusion in drafts so I can get a better idea, but here's my highlights:
I'm keeping Vesuvan Shapeshifter for the nonce because I like to think that the handful of extra morphs helps make for skill-testing situations.
I agree Body Double is mediocre and should get the boot very soon.
Twincast fits the "blue can do anything" approach that makes the color so powerful. I actually cut Fork but kept Reverberate. Fork makes the copy red, so Reverberate is usually better in corner cases against pro-red creatures. Is my thinking sound on this?
Copy Artifact, like Sculpting Steel, is just another piece of The Artifact Deck. I may eventually reconsider its inclusion, but the cheap mana cost makes it so easy to copy things. There's usually no lack of high-priority targets.
Divert/Misdirection: I recently cut Shunt for being too expensive, but the free or near-free nature of these two makes them much better in my eyes. I might be rating them too highly though.
Rewind: I could eventually cut it, but I'd have to take a serious look at the density of countermagic in my cube. I doubt we'll ever get a cubeable counterspell out of Magic again (or at least, not for a long time) so I can't even replace like-for-like.
Rushing River: Compared to Boomerang, have you considered that it can bounce twice as many permanents for only 1.5 times the cost, and is more splashable? Sacrificing a land is usually a negligible investment since it often puts you way ahead in board position or in a race.
Ancestral Vision: This card is a bit of a conundrum here. Maybe I'm placing too much importance on the U cost, but my thinking is this: I can pay U in the early turns of the game, refill my hand while having mana to use my newly acquired cards a few turns later, and take the risk of a potential dead draw late in the game. Or I can play something like Jace's Ingenuity or Careful Consideration, and not be able to cast them until a certain point in the game (whenever I have four or five mana or more, in this case), and possibly skip a play in return for the mana investment that those drawn cards required.
To me, the payoff of untapping with three extra cards and no additional investment is worth the risk.
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
Rewind: You could try keeping tabs on how often it just is a 4 mana counter. If that happens too often, you could swap with something Cancellike.
Rushing River doesn't bounce lands, which makes it a lot less aggresive. It also costs one mana extra which makes a big difference for me. But bounce is pretty good most of the time and is undervalued by a lot of cube (and deck) builders I feel.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I wonder if I should add Opposition to the chopping block. It's in a color with very few options for a token theme. Is it worth playing blue in a token deck just for Opposition?
It's official: Mutagenic Growth, Nettle Sentinel and Scryb Ranger are no more! Thank you for the thoughtful responses that led me to this point.
And yes, the discussion actually convinced me to cut three cards instead of the usual two. This gives me an opportunity to try out cards I've excluded.
Scryb Ranger was a neat combat trick and mana development tool. Flash in the Ranger, untap a beater, block? Untapping karoos and multi-mana lands was also great, but most of all, he was a badly underpowered beater in a color that relies on the strength of its ground pounders. In its place I'll probably install something a bit more aggressive like Ice Storm or Mayor of Avabruck, which has been getting some nice feedback from the players running it.
The other two, well, I think I can live without, considering the power of incoming sets.
Let's cut cards in red! This has been working out so well that I'm almost at my current goal of 840. Only red and colorless are left on the hit list. So let's hit them up. Can you find the two worst cards hidden in the list below? (If you think there are other possibilities left unmentioned, I'd be happy to hear them too.)
1 Taurean Mauler
1 Zo-Zu, the Punisher
1 Kruin Outlaw
1 Rakka Mar
1 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
1 Flameblast Dragon
1 Hostility
1 Reverberate
1 Violent Eruption
1 Wild Ricochet
1 Beacon of Destruction
1 Word of Seizing
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
In Hostility, for 6 mana I'd want my damage to go through NOT get prevented make tokens. And if I want hasted damage in red, I'd rather draft a hasted flyer like Rorix or the like.
In Word of Seizing, we also wanted to possibly steal a planeswalker use its ability, then give it back to you. Never ever happened.. It's more of a costlier Threaten.
Skred seems a bit odd. Do you have a snow subtheme going on in your cube? Even so I might actually prefer burn that can go to the dome instead of just creature removal.
Stigma Lasher has a hard to cast cost and its ability is not super relevant. He gets killed by every first striker in white and black.
Word of Seizing is not a Threaten clone, but a red Ray of Command. If you like combat tricks this card can be nice.
Violent Eruption cost makes me wonder about how often it will be problematic to cast.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I really dislike Violent eruption again because of the ccc. I would prefer pyrotechnics, cone of flame, pyrokinesis, or even shower of coals for the effect.
Skred is decent. kills blockers and utility creatures early and is almost a terminate late. better for midrange/control though, in aggro I want burn that hits players. also the inability to hit planeswalkers makes it worse and worse.
I love word of seizing. it isnt always efficient but it is an awesome effect to have show up every once in a while. steals planeswalkers that just ticked up to ultimate and can steal games out of nowhere. I vote you keep it for as long as you use the expansion format.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
I have no snow subtheme. I include in-house errata that all basic lands are treated as snow because of my two Cold Snap includes that require it (Skred and Phyrexian Ironfoot). I have some fondness for the Ironfoot as an undercosted colorless beater. But due to the prevalence of nonbasics, Skred generally plays like an instant-speed Flame Slash or slightly worse. So I could certainly see cutting it, although I find it can be difficult to accrue a critical mass of burn spells during draft.
Yes, it is occasionally used to steal a creature and beat face, but it has many other applications. It adds some depth to red.
Violent Eruption can be inconsistent to cast because of the triple red. Its main use lies in counterburn, where the madness cost becomes relevant thanks to blue's looting power. This is also an archetype that lives almost exclusively on the opponent's turn. Having the option to choose between burning some creature(s), countering a spell or drawing some cards is part of the fun. That's why I wouldn't consider sorcery-speed versions even with an easier mana cost, because I believe the harder cost to be a worthwhile tradeoff for the benefits you can reap by responding instantly.
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
[Remixes] - [The Brutal Cube - 360 Powered] - [My Cube Article] - ['Print-This' Wishlist]
But for now, there is one last hurdle to get over before the Dark Ascension update. The colorless section needs two cuts as well, and it's the one I may have the most trouble evaluating. Any input would be more valuable than ever.
1 Voltaic Key
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Empyrial Plate
1 Gorgon Flail
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Staff of Domination
1 Puppet Strings
1 Sword of Vengeance
Ideally, I'd like to hang on to the equipment. They have second-string status, but they play an invaluable role at this size, particularly Gorgon Flail and Empyrial Plate.
Here's the full colorless section. I'd be happy to entertain cuts from here as well.
Creature:
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Chimeric Idol
1 Metalworker
1 Phyrexian Ironfoot
1 Bonehoard
1 Juggernaut
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Masticore
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Precursor Golem
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Triskelion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Artisan of Kozilek
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Chimeric Mass
Noncreature
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Zuran Orb
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Black Vise
1 Bonesplitter
1 Brittle Effigy
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Mana Vault
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
1 Ankh of Mishra
1 Azorius Signet
1 Boros Signet
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Dimir Signet
1 Empyrial Plate
1 Golgari Signet
1 Gorgon Flail
1 Grim Monolith
1 Gruul Signet
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Izzet Signet
1 Journeyer’s Kite
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mind Stone
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Powder Keg
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Scroll Rack
1 Selesnya Signet
1 Simic Signet
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Impulse
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Talisman of Unity
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Winter Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Crystal Ball
1 Crystal Shard
1 Grafted Wargear
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Mimic Vat
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Puppet Strings
1 Ring of Gix
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Staff of Domination
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Vengeance
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Tangle Wire
1 Erratic Portal
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Nevinyrral’s Disk
1 Phyrexian Processor
1 Smokestack
1 Memory Jar
1 Mirari
1 Mindslaver
1 Obelisk of Alara
1 Karn Liberated
1 Engineered Explosives
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge