I'm not saying Ghitu Slinger can't help aggro, I just think it's not an amazing aggro card. You pay 3 for the effect, and then 3 for the body. Hard aggro doesn't really want that unless it's cost to damage ratio is efficient. Aggro wants to invest in an effect once get value through damage and move on.
I'm not saying Ghitu Slinger can't help aggro, I just think it's not an amazing aggro card. You pay 3 for the effect, and then 3 for the body. Hard aggro doesn't really want that unless it's cost to damage ratio is efficient. Aggro wants to invest in an effect once get value through damage and move on.
I'd argue that Echo costs are really good for aggro as aggro needs mana sinks on guys (Spikeshot Elder is bad but he can do stuff when you flood which makes him fine) and echo allows you to get a lot of up-front stuff and decide if you want to keep the guy around later.
I'd run Reckless Charge over Blood Knight and Goblin Ruinblaster, if that helpss.
It kind of does, I don't think I'm interested in cutting a creature at this point (I want to keep the count high), so I think it would have to be something from the spell slot.
Slinger is great against aggro too in my experience. He kills one weenie dude when he comes into play, and then can block or deter attacks on your opponent's turn.
I think I should give reckless charge a try. It was pretty bad before when I had it in my cube, but my red curve was much higher then. +3 damage is pretty huge; I'd misremembered it as +2.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Slinger is great against aggro too in my experience. He kills one weenie dude when he comes into play, and then can block or deter attacks on your opponent's turn.
I think I should give reckless charge a try. It was pretty bad before when I had it in my cube, but my red curve was much higher then. +3 damage is pretty huge; I'd misremembered it as +2.
Ghitu Slinger was a boss for me in draft last night. I drafted him in R/ aggro and he did great. I don't see Ghitu Slinger singlehandedly wrecking aggro in our cube. Red is rarely played as a control color in our cube, but he could be splashed in a U/ deck for instance. I'm all for cards that work well in both aggro and control strategies, especially in red.
Wildfire, Crater Hellion, Earthquake, Pyroclasm and the like were intentionally cut because they were routinely last picked. The only one drafting red control decks was me and another guy, and we weren't doing too well with them (and yes, we know the archetypes R/ Wildfire,U// Planeswalkers, and U// or U/ Counterburn.)
We have all of those archetypes available in our 450 and 540 cube, but we find red better as a purely aggro color at 360, just like we find blue better as a purely control color.
My point was rather that Slinger may be better in your cube because you will be facing a lot of aggro decks. If he is played in an aggro deck against another aggro deck he can really help with the race: takes down a creature when he comes into play, then can trade with an attacker (giving you a 2-for-one and making the echo cost irrelevant), deter attacks, and giving you the option of keeping a beater in play the following turn if you want to pay the echo cost.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I'm not sure I understand the echo as good for aggro argument. Echo is not good for aggro, this is why there is so much debate over the 1 drop echo beaters. Aggro wants the most efficient use of your mana it can get over the first 5 turns and paying for something you already paid for last turn, disrupting your curve, and forfeiting the opportunity to advance your game state for a turn are generally not that. The only time I would want the Slinger is if I'm waiting out a wrath and am not planning to play a turn four creature anyway, but even then, if my opponent doesn't wrath, I lose the opportunity to dump end of turn burn spells.
My point was rather that Slinger may be better in your cube because you will be facing a lot of aggro decks. If he is played in an aggro deck against another aggro deck he can really help with the race: takes down a creature when he comes into play, then can trade with an attacker (giving you a 2-for-one and making the echo cost irrelevant), deter attacks, and giving you the option of keeping a beater in play the following turn if you want to pay the echo cost.
Yeah, I understood you. It's good against aggro, I mentioned that last page. I'm okay with that. I think it's a better card in the cube than Rivalry is right now, for both aggro and control.
I'm not sure I understand the echo as good for aggro argument. Echo is not good for aggro, this is why there is so much debate over the 1 drop echo beaters. Aggro wants the most efficient use of your mana it can get over the first 5 turns and paying for something you already paid for last turn, disrupting your curve, and forfeiting the opportunity to advance your game state for a turn are generally not that. The only time I would want the Slinger is if I'm waiting out a wrath and am not planning to play a turn four creature anyway, but even then, if my opponent doesn't wrath, I lose the opportunity to dump end of turn burn spells.
Echo one drops aren't necessarily the best thing ever, but a 3cc echo guy is fine. Chances are you've already played the bulk of your small guys and could use something worth spending a good amount of mana on. Sometimes you just need a better Fire Imp, even if he costs twice as much.
Ghitu Slinger is great in the aggro mirror, but mediocre in the other matchups. Overall a solid card, but my group just voted it off the island for our new 360. He's still in my parole board though, with a chance of coming back in the future.
Ghitu Slinger is great in the aggro mirror, but mediocre in the other matchups. Overall a solid card, but my group just voted it off the island for our new 360. He's still in my parole board though, with a chance of coming back in the future.
Well, aggro mirrors will hopefully be much more common here so...
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On another note, what do you guys think about Molten Rain?
I think it might be outclassed at this level. It sees a lot of sideboard play around here, and only really gets boarded in against stuff like Library of Alex or against 4cc.
I consider molten rain tier 1 LD. It does what aggro wants to do : disrupt and hurt your opponent. I would certainly cut Goblin Ruinblaster, Rivalry, Mogg Fanatic, or Kird Ape before it.
Rivalry is already cut, and I think I'm very happy where my number of creatures are in red.
While I think Molten Rain is certainly the best red land destruction spell available, it's just a fancier Stone Rain with a bit of burn attached (if the land is nonbasic). If it were a red Sinkhole I wouldn't even think about cutting it, but I don't know if the extra mana is worth two conditional damage (that can't hit opposing creatures).
EDIT:
I should really update the list... time to lay out the cube... brb.
I think that Molten Rain's power is very dependent on your cube. If they run more manlands and bouncelands, then it's obviously boss. You get the idea.
I like Ruinblaster more than I like Molten Rain. You get the same effect and damage but for an extra mana you get a 2/1 dude that can hold Swords for you. The downside, I suppose, is that you can't hit basics. Risk v Reward, I say.
I think that Molten Rain's power is very dependent on your cube. If they run more manlands and bouncelands, then it's obviously boss. You get the idea.
I think this is spot-on. Not only do we only have 2? manlands and no bouncelands, but this cube is particularly aggro-heavy, which means a good amount of our decks don't care whether we have three or four lands in play.
I like Ruinblaster more than I like Molten Rain. You get the same effect and damage but for an extra mana you get a 2/1 dude that can hold Swords for you. The downside, I suppose, is that you can't hit basics. Risk v Reward, I say.
Yeah, but if you're hitting basics it's just a worse Stone Rain, and I wouldn't play regular Stone Rain, so...
I like Ruinblaster a lot more than Molten Rain. I actually like every red card in the cube more than Molten Rain.
Molten Rain is the nutz. LD + burn at once is exactly what red aggro wants. I'd play it at 180.
With the amount of fetch grabbing dual that happens at 360, you should always be able to kill a dual land and deal 2 damage with it, which is well worth the 3 mana. It can shoot 'walkers too. It happens a turn faster than Ruinblaster which is absolutely clutch, and it can target down basics in the occasional situation where it's needed.
Molten Rain is the nutz. LD + burn at once is exactly what red aggro wants. I'd play it at 180.
Yeah, but you also play Morphling at 360. (tongue-in-cheek)
With the amount of fetch grabbing dual that happens at 360, you should always be able to kill a dual land and deal 2 damage with it, which is well worth the 3 mana. It can shoot 'walkers too. It happens a turn faster than Ruinblaster which is absolutely clutch, and it can target down basics in the occasional situation where it's needed.
I absolutely would not cut it.
I think it might be better in your cube than it is in ours. It's definitely next on my chopping block. The two damage that occasionally happens isn't enough to push it into an insane 180-cube category when most of what it does is just Stone Rain, and that card isn't even played at 630.
I think Molten Rain is the best LD spell available other than versatile stuff like Bramblecrush or Pillage, but the fact that you only get the two damage when it's nonbasic and that it's only two damage to a player or planeswalker... I dunno, it hasn't been that great for us. I don't know what to tell you.
Another reason that it might be so good for you is that you don't treat red as a purely aggro color. When you throw in control cards, your red aggro decks have less cards in cube to choose from when it comes to making a deck, so they might not have other options to play and Molten Rain could get in a lot of times there. All three of our 360s treat red as a purely aggro color just like we treat blue as a purely control color.
That could be another big reason behind why you guys like Molten Rain so much.
EDIT:
I really respect your opinion though and even though our cubes are starting to look a good bit different, I still like to hear your opinion. You definitely know how to bring up little things that make me re-evaluate a card in context.
Yeah, but you also play Morphling at 360. (tongue-in-cheek)
I wouldn't start down this road. There's a lot of cards that each of us run that the other person isn't keen on. I think cutting Molten Rain is much crazier than running Superman.
Quote from Blimpy »
most of what it does is just Stone Rain, and that card isn't even played at 630.
A couple things here:
1. I would play Stone Rain at 540. It's really close to being good enough for 450.
2. Most of what it does isn't Stone Rain. The extra damage makes all the difference in the world. Usually LD is focused on tempo disruption instead of damage output, but not Molten Rain. You don't have to decide to lay off the burn to keep the disruption coming, and that's just SO good.
Quote from Blimpy »
Another reason that it might be so good for you is that you don't treat red as a purely aggro color.
Supporting a handful of non-aggro red cards doesn't change its value at all. It only sees play in aggro, and it makes the cut in every single red aggro deck that has at least one other piece of disruption.
2. Most of what it does isn't Stone Rain. The extra damage makes all the difference in the world. Usually LD is focused on tempo disruption instead of damage output, but not Molten Rain. You don't have to decide to lay off the burn to keep the disruption coming, and that's just SO good.
While that's true, I don't get why you would play this over Goblin Ruinblaster. Ruinblaster gets in there for 2 the turn it comes out (in addition to disrupting them) and it can hold swords + do other stuff.
You like Bone Shredder over all the two mana black removal spells, but not Goblin Ruinblaster over similar effects in his color? I dunno. The damage is only a one time thing with Molten Rain too, but Goblin Ruinblaster continues to get in there turn after turn.
Supporting a handful of non-aggro red cards doesn't change its value at all. It only sees play in aggro, and it makes the cut in every single red aggro deck that has at least one other piece of disruption.
This is not the case with our decks, we'd prefer a creature every time to Molten Rain. Aggro values creatures so much more highly than spells because they will do so much more damage over the course of the game.
LD is so critical in the anti-control matchup. Interesting that your group doesn't value it highly.
Sometimes the land and damage just don't matter because your opponent has a two mana wall out. You really need the extra creature to start getting around it (or a burn spell to finish it off) rather than a spell that's going to hopefully give you a Time Walk, but probably won't.
The difference between three and four lands is usually just not that much for us as control decks tend to go for lower curves as well around here (and the fact that they're using lots of aggro cards to trade with aggro guys). Molten Rain is awesome against control, but only if you're already ahead, and that's not the easiest thing to do against a control deck packing tons of acceleration and card draw.
Molten Rain was much, much better for us at higher card counts where moxen weren't as prevalent as they are now. We've been playing at 360 for months now and the difference is pretty substantial.
We played Stone Rain at 540 and it was one of our first cuts.
I played it at 450 and liked it. I was consistently looking to find a way to get it back in. Ice Storm too.
Quote from Blimpy »
While that's true, I don't get why you would play this over Goblin Ruinblaster. Ruinblaster gets in there for 2 the turn it comes out (in addition to disrupting them) and it can hold swords + do other stuff.
The extra mana means a lot on an LD effect. And he CAN'T target a basic when I need him to.
Quote from Blimpy »
You like Bone Shredder over all the two mana black removal spells, but not Goblin Ruinblaster over similar effects in his color? I dunno. The damage is only a one time thing with Molten Rain too, but Goblin Ruinblaster continues to get in there turn after turn.
The extra turn is far more important with LD than it is with removal. He also doesn't combo with Sun Titan, and it's in the wrong color for to combo with the reanimation spells, unlike the Shredder. He also doesn't re-trigger with blink effects, because it's kicker and not a regular ETB effect.
Quote from Blimpy »
This is not the case with our decks, we'd prefer a creature every time to Molten Rain. Aggro values creatures so much more highly than spells because they will do so much more damage over the course of the game.
I prefer effects strapped to creatures too, but there's a limit. LD is THE effect I don't want to substitute speed for versatility on. Because the difference between LD on T3 and LD on T4 is so much more extreme. Additionally, the competition at the 4CC slot is BRUTAL in the cube, which means that the poor Goblin sat on the sidelines watching Koth, FTK, Hero and a plethora of other 4-drops make the cut over him.
Quote from Blimpy »
Sometimes the land and damage just don't matter because your opponent has a two mana wall out. You really need the extra creature to start getting around it (or a burn spell to finish it off) rather than a spell that's going to hopefully give you a Time Walk, but probably won't.
Sometimes the creature doesn't matter because they have an answer to it, and the guaranteed damage from the burn spell is more reliable. When my opponent is low on life, I'd rather draw burn. It's all dependent on the board-state to say which I'd rather have, but that's not the deciding factor here. The main factor (as I've been saying) is the fact that 4CC LD just isn't as good as 3CC LD.
Quote from Blimpy »
The difference between three and four lands is usually just not that much for us as control decks tend to go for lower curves as well around here (and the fact that they're using lots of aggro cards to trade with aggro guys). Molten Rain is awesome against control, but only if you're already ahead, and that's not the easiest thing to do against a control deck packing tons of acceleration and card draw.
The difference between 3 and 4 lands is everything. As is the difference between 4 and 5. Keeping my opponent off a Wrath for another turn so my early drops can continue to bash them is the difference between maybe winning and losing a game.
Quote from Blimpy »
Molten Rain was much, much better for us at higher card counts where moxen weren't as prevalent as they are now. We've been playing at 360 for months now and the difference is pretty substantial.
Moxen or not, land destruction is good. They're not going to have JUST moxen. They're going to have lands too. Powerful, non-basic lands that fix their mana and do other broken stuff too. And the earlier you can stop the effect the better.
..........
You and I are obviously going to have to agree to disagree on this one, but 3CC LD with a great upside makes the cut in red aggro, and makes the cut in the cube. Any cube. If you don't like it, fine. But Molten Rain is FAR better than Ruinblaster. LD a turn earlier and the insane power-level of the other 4-drops in the cube make it such a more important card.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Molten Rain. It's still in my cube atm, although it's probably getting cut soon.
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So I decided what to cut Calciderm for: Ranger of Eos. The ranger might already be good enough to see play in a regular 360, let alone one that has as many one drops as this one.
Yosei did indeed get cut for Spectral Procession, and it's been pretty good at this level. Definitely better than it was at 450 or 540. Manabases are so much better at this level that you can make a turn 3 Spectral Procession work pretty often.
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So I did like 8 two-man drafts last night (a combination of winston, winchester, rochester, poker, and solomon/fact-or-fiction, mostly winston though).
I have a very interesting game to report as well as several interesting decks.
In one game, I was playing B//UAGGRO, splashing blue for Ancestral Recall and Time Walk (oh yeah, that deck was awesome) when the following happened:
Turn 1:
My starting hand is Mox Emerald, Swamp, Island, Plains, Godless Shrine, Nezumi Graverobber, Doom Blade. My opponent is going first.
He goes first turn fetch, break fetch, get Hallowed Fountain, Sol Ring. Go.
I draw a land, go first turn Nezumi Graverobber.
Turn 2:
He untaps, misses on land drop, plays Serendib Efreet.
I draw another mana source, pass the turn.
Turn 3:
He swings with Efreet, plays Plains, plays Moat.
End of this turn, I exile his fetch. My Graverobber flips.
My turn: I draw another mana source. I'm at four mana sources right now.
Turn 4:
He draws and plays an Island and Sower of Temptations my Nezumi Graverobber!!!
He swings with Efreet.
EOT I Doom Blade his Sower of Temptation.
I draw another mana source, play a land, say go.
Turn 5:
After he takes damage from his Serendib Efreet, I steal it by reanimating Sower of Temptation.
My opponent never draws a removal spell and I never draw another non-mana source.
Nezumi Graverobber and Doom Blade literally won an entire game by themselves. I thought it was interesting enough to share.
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The decks that I can remember consisted of W/ aggro with 8! one drops including Mother of Ruins and Goblin Guide and Ranger of Eos... R/ aggro with Sarkhan Vol stealing a Wurmcoil Engine... B// Esper AGGRO, splashing Ancestral Recall and Time Walk (one of my favorite decks of all time)
4-color-control featuring three nonbasics. My opponent was on three color control sporting 7 non-basics. Guess who won. O.o U// Reanimator, splashing red for Faithless Looting and Burn.
Dude, I'm so glad you put the Graverobber back in. He's such a baller 2-drop. Quick to flip, 4-power and has a sick repeatable late-game ability. It's not uncommon at all to have him flip on T3 (or T2 with a Mox). In fact, that's usually the norm if he's drawn early. Which puts him above the curve as an aggro beater, and he's got a great ability to boot. He's one of my favorite beaters. And on top of all that, he's maindeckable graveyard hate, which the cube only has like two of.
OT - In an aggro deck I'd mull a hand of 5 mana sources & 1 creature pretty much every time. Dropping a 2/1 on turn 1 with nothing to provide additional pressure is not very likely to end up well.
It was game 3 and I was up 2-0. I won vs. him the previous three winstons and nothing was on the line, so I figured giving him a game was fine if I lost, and if I drew out of it I was fine too. We were just having fun.
I've pondered over your cube subtitle "aggro-centric" a few times, lets put this statement to the test. Here's a quick overview of how many 1 drops some of the most recently updated cubes are running.
I haven't updated the list in a while. In addition to what you see, I'm running a good amount of other stuff too.
Check post #85 for some stuff that I've added in, but haven't gotten around to updating the OP (post like #75 and on is different than the OP). The OP is probably ~20 cards different than what I'm actually playing right now. I was changing around the cube so much recently that I was updating the OP every day with a different change so I figured we would just test a bunch of stuff and let it settle, then I would update it whenever we got a more concrete hold on what we liked.
EDIT: I'm actually running 34 one drops at the moment (instead of 31), although Reckless Waif is on trial right now so he shouldn't really count. I don't think the 1cc drops that I'm running over you are particularly more aggro, however. Magus of the Scroll and Gorilla Shaman aren't necessarily what I think of when I think of aggro cards, they do come down early and can hold swords.
I would absolutely NOT cut Mogg Fanatic for the Waif. Not only is it far less consistent, but there's a huge number of excellent 1-toughness creatures that the Fanatic can kill outright, as well as tacking on extra damage to other burn spells and shooting 'walkers.
Waif vs Goblin Patrol is much closer, but I prefer to use a card where I know what it's gonna do. The Waif in playtesting here was super inconsistent, and even in it's best scenario, it was still really random. I know I'm going to be able to bash for 2 with the Patrol, and that carries a lot more value for me. Particularly at 360 where getting a higher number of 1CC cards is easier, the Patrol has played even better.
I would absolutely NOT cut Mogg Fanatic for the Waif. Not only is it far less consistent, but there's a huge number of excellent 1-toughness creatures that the Fanatic can kill outright, as well as tacking on extra damage to other burn spells and shooting 'walkers.
Waif vs Goblin Patrol is much closer, but I prefer to use a card where I know what it's gonna do. The Waif in playtesting here was super inconsistent, and even in it's best scenario, it was still really random. I know I'm going to be able to bash for 2 with the Patrol, and that carries a lot more value for me. Particularly at 360 where getting a higher number of 1CC cards is easier, the Patrol has played even better.
Reckless Waif is also really bad here because I would guess our curve is comparatively really, really low.
Also, Mogg Fanatic and Bogg Fanatic (Fume Spitter) are really amazing here for the same reason, they kill a lot of stuff.
I'll update the list with what we're playing right now, it's gonna take me like an hour to finish up some stuff first though.
I don't think it is either. Pretty much all of the powered 360 lists are about the same. They all have a ton of really amazing low CC cards, and a relatively small top-end in each section.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
I'd argue that Echo costs are really good for aggro as aggro needs mana sinks on guys (Spikeshot Elder is bad but he can do stuff when you flood which makes him fine) and echo allows you to get a lot of up-front stuff and decide if you want to keep the guy around later.
It kind of does, I don't think I'm interested in cutting a creature at this point (I want to keep the count high), so I think it would have to be something from the spell slot.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
I think I should give reckless charge a try. It was pretty bad before when I had it in my cube, but my red curve was much higher then. +3 damage is pretty huge; I'd misremembered it as +2.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Ghitu Slinger was a boss for me in draft last night. I drafted him in R/ aggro and he did great. I don't see Ghitu Slinger singlehandedly wrecking aggro in our cube. Red is rarely played as a control color in our cube, but he could be splashed in a U/ deck for instance. I'm all for cards that work well in both aggro and control strategies, especially in red.
Wildfire, Crater Hellion, Earthquake, Pyroclasm and the like were intentionally cut because they were routinely last picked. The only one drafting red control decks was me and another guy, and we weren't doing too well with them (and yes, we know the archetypes R/ Wildfire,U// Planeswalkers, and U// or U/ Counterburn.)
We have all of those archetypes available in our 450 and 540 cube, but we find red better as a purely aggro color at 360, just like we find blue better as a purely control color.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Yeah, I understood you. It's good against aggro, I mentioned that last page. I'm okay with that. I think it's a better card in the cube than Rivalry is right now, for both aggro and control.
Echo one drops aren't necessarily the best thing ever, but a 3cc echo guy is fine. Chances are you've already played the bulk of your small guys and could use something worth spending a good amount of mana on. Sometimes you just need a better Fire Imp, even if he costs twice as much.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Well, aggro mirrors will hopefully be much more common here so...
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On another note, what do you guys think about Molten Rain?
I think it might be outclassed at this level. It sees a lot of sideboard play around here, and only really gets boarded in against stuff like Library of Alex or against 4cc.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Rivalry is already cut, and I think I'm very happy where my number of creatures are in red.
While I think Molten Rain is certainly the best red land destruction spell available, it's just a fancier Stone Rain with a bit of burn attached (if the land is nonbasic). If it were a red Sinkhole I wouldn't even think about cutting it, but I don't know if the extra mana is worth two conditional damage (that can't hit opposing creatures).
EDIT:
I should really update the list... time to lay out the cube... brb.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
I like Ruinblaster more than I like Molten Rain. You get the same effect and damage but for an extra mana you get a 2/1 dude that can hold Swords for you. The downside, I suppose, is that you can't hit basics. Risk v Reward, I say.
I think this is spot-on. Not only do we only have 2? manlands and no bouncelands, but this cube is particularly aggro-heavy, which means a good amount of our decks don't care whether we have three or four lands in play.
Yeah, but if you're hitting basics it's just a worse Stone Rain, and I wouldn't play regular Stone Rain, so...
I like Ruinblaster a lot more than Molten Rain. I actually like every red card in the cube more than Molten Rain.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
With the amount of fetch grabbing dual that happens at 360, you should always be able to kill a dual land and deal 2 damage with it, which is well worth the 3 mana. It can shoot 'walkers too. It happens a turn faster than Ruinblaster which is absolutely clutch, and it can target down basics in the occasional situation where it's needed.
I absolutely would not cut it.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Yeah, but you also play Morphling at 360. (tongue-in-cheek)
I think it might be better in your cube than it is in ours. It's definitely next on my chopping block. The two damage that occasionally happens isn't enough to push it into an insane 180-cube category when most of what it does is just Stone Rain, and that card isn't even played at 630.
I think Molten Rain is the best LD spell available other than versatile stuff like Bramblecrush or Pillage, but the fact that you only get the two damage when it's nonbasic and that it's only two damage to a player or planeswalker... I dunno, it hasn't been that great for us. I don't know what to tell you.
Another reason that it might be so good for you is that you don't treat red as a purely aggro color. When you throw in control cards, your red aggro decks have less cards in cube to choose from when it comes to making a deck, so they might not have other options to play and Molten Rain could get in a lot of times there. All three of our 360s treat red as a purely aggro color just like we treat blue as a purely control color.
That could be another big reason behind why you guys like Molten Rain so much.
EDIT:
I really respect your opinion though and even though our cubes are starting to look a good bit different, I still like to hear your opinion. You definitely know how to bring up little things that make me re-evaluate a card in context.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
I wouldn't start down this road. There's a lot of cards that each of us run that the other person isn't keen on. I think cutting Molten Rain is much crazier than running Superman.
A couple things here:
1. I would play Stone Rain at 540. It's really close to being good enough for 450.
2. Most of what it does isn't Stone Rain. The extra damage makes all the difference in the world. Usually LD is focused on tempo disruption instead of damage output, but not Molten Rain. You don't have to decide to lay off the burn to keep the disruption coming, and that's just SO good.
Supporting a handful of non-aggro red cards doesn't change its value at all. It only sees play in aggro, and it makes the cut in every single red aggro deck that has at least one other piece of disruption.
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We played Stone Rain at 540 and it was one of our first cuts.
While that's true, I don't get why you would play this over Goblin Ruinblaster. Ruinblaster gets in there for 2 the turn it comes out (in addition to disrupting them) and it can hold swords + do other stuff.
You like Bone Shredder over all the two mana black removal spells, but not Goblin Ruinblaster over similar effects in his color? I dunno. The damage is only a one time thing with Molten Rain too, but Goblin Ruinblaster continues to get in there turn after turn.
This is not the case with our decks, we'd prefer a creature every time to Molten Rain. Aggro values creatures so much more highly than spells because they will do so much more damage over the course of the game.
Sometimes the land and damage just don't matter because your opponent has a two mana wall out. You really need the extra creature to start getting around it (or a burn spell to finish it off) rather than a spell that's going to hopefully give you a Time Walk, but probably won't.
The difference between three and four lands is usually just not that much for us as control decks tend to go for lower curves as well around here (and the fact that they're using lots of aggro cards to trade with aggro guys). Molten Rain is awesome against control, but only if you're already ahead, and that's not the easiest thing to do against a control deck packing tons of acceleration and card draw.
Molten Rain was much, much better for us at higher card counts where moxen weren't as prevalent as they are now. We've been playing at 360 for months now and the difference is pretty substantial.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
I played it at 450 and liked it. I was consistently looking to find a way to get it back in. Ice Storm too.
The extra mana means a lot on an LD effect. And he CAN'T target a basic when I need him to.
The extra turn is far more important with LD than it is with removal. He also doesn't combo with Sun Titan, and it's in the wrong color for to combo with the reanimation spells, unlike the Shredder. He also doesn't re-trigger with blink effects, because it's kicker and not a regular ETB effect.
I prefer effects strapped to creatures too, but there's a limit. LD is THE effect I don't want to substitute speed for versatility on. Because the difference between LD on T3 and LD on T4 is so much more extreme. Additionally, the competition at the 4CC slot is BRUTAL in the cube, which means that the poor Goblin sat on the sidelines watching Koth, FTK, Hero and a plethora of other 4-drops make the cut over him.
Sometimes the creature doesn't matter because they have an answer to it, and the guaranteed damage from the burn spell is more reliable. When my opponent is low on life, I'd rather draw burn. It's all dependent on the board-state to say which I'd rather have, but that's not the deciding factor here. The main factor (as I've been saying) is the fact that 4CC LD just isn't as good as 3CC LD.
The difference between 3 and 4 lands is everything. As is the difference between 4 and 5. Keeping my opponent off a Wrath for another turn so my early drops can continue to bash them is the difference between maybe winning and losing a game.
Moxen or not, land destruction is good. They're not going to have JUST moxen. They're going to have lands too. Powerful, non-basic lands that fix their mana and do other broken stuff too. And the earlier you can stop the effect the better.
..........
You and I are obviously going to have to agree to disagree on this one, but 3CC LD with a great upside makes the cut in red aggro, and makes the cut in the cube. Any cube. If you don't like it, fine. But Molten Rain is FAR better than Ruinblaster. LD a turn earlier and the insane power-level of the other 4-drops in the cube make it such a more important card.
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So I decided what to cut Calciderm for: Ranger of Eos. The ranger might already be good enough to see play in a regular 360, let alone one that has as many one drops as this one.
Yosei did indeed get cut for Spectral Procession, and it's been pretty good at this level. Definitely better than it was at 450 or 540. Manabases are so much better at this level that you can make a turn 3 Spectral Procession work pretty often.
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So I did like 8 two-man drafts last night (a combination of winston, winchester, rochester, poker, and solomon/fact-or-fiction, mostly winston though).
I have a very interesting game to report as well as several interesting decks.
In one game, I was playing B//U AGGRO, splashing blue for Ancestral Recall and Time Walk (oh yeah, that deck was awesome) when the following happened:
Turn 1:
My starting hand is Mox Emerald, Swamp, Island, Plains, Godless Shrine, Nezumi Graverobber, Doom Blade. My opponent is going first.
He goes first turn fetch, break fetch, get Hallowed Fountain, Sol Ring. Go.
I draw a land, go first turn Nezumi Graverobber.
Turn 2:
He untaps, misses on land drop, plays Serendib Efreet.
I draw another mana source, pass the turn.
Turn 3:
He swings with Efreet, plays Plains, plays Moat.
End of this turn, I exile his fetch. My Graverobber flips.
My turn: I draw another mana source. I'm at four mana sources right now.
Turn 4:
He draws and plays an Island and Sower of Temptations my Nezumi Graverobber!!!
He swings with Efreet.
EOT I Doom Blade his Sower of Temptation.
I draw another mana source, play a land, say go.
Turn 5:
After he takes damage from his Serendib Efreet, I steal it by reanimating Sower of Temptation.
My opponent never draws a removal spell and I never draw another non-mana source.
Nezumi Graverobber and Doom Blade literally won an entire game by themselves. I thought it was interesting enough to share.
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The decks that I can remember consisted of W/ aggro with 8! one drops including Mother of Ruins and Goblin Guide and Ranger of Eos...
R/ aggro with Sarkhan Vol stealing a Wurmcoil Engine...
B// Esper AGGRO, splashing Ancestral Recall and Time Walk (one of my favorite decks of all time)
4-color-control featuring three nonbasics. My opponent was on three color control sporting 7 non-basics. Guess who won. O.o
U// Reanimator, splashing red for Faithless Looting and Burn.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
It was game 3 and I was up 2-0. I won vs. him the previous three winstons and nothing was on the line, so I figured giving him a game was fine if I lost, and if I drew out of it I was fine too. We were just having fun.
I haven't updated the list in a while. In addition to what you see, I'm running a good amount of other stuff too.
Check post #85 for some stuff that I've added in, but haven't gotten around to updating the OP (post like #75 and on is different than the OP). The OP is probably ~20 cards different than what I'm actually playing right now. I was changing around the cube so much recently that I was updating the OP every day with a different change so I figured we would just test a bunch of stuff and let it settle, then I would update it whenever we got a more concrete hold on what we liked.
EDIT: I'm actually running 34 one drops at the moment (instead of 31), although Reckless Waif is on trial right now so he shouldn't really count. I don't think the 1cc drops that I'm running over you are particularly more aggro, however. Magus of the Scroll and Gorilla Shaman aren't necessarily what I think of when I think of aggro cards, they do come down early and can hold swords.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Waif vs Goblin Patrol is much closer, but I prefer to use a card where I know what it's gonna do. The Waif in playtesting here was super inconsistent, and even in it's best scenario, it was still really random. I know I'm going to be able to bash for 2 with the Patrol, and that carries a lot more value for me. Particularly at 360 where getting a higher number of 1CC cards is easier, the Patrol has played even better.
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Reckless Waif is also really bad here because I would guess our curve is comparatively really, really low.
Also, Mogg Fanatic and Bogg Fanatic (Fume Spitter) are really amazing here for the same reason, they kill a lot of stuff.
I'll update the list with what we're playing right now, it's gonna take me like an hour to finish up some stuff first though.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Sure. I'd be really surprised if it weren't a good bit lower, but you could be right.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!